I'm starting to prepare for my first time DMing with a one-shot for my friends. I found a really interesting module that includes mystery and memory loss/memory-consuming eldritch horrors and the like.
The creator made a note that something really spooky that could be added as a permanent effect is that memory or skill could be lost failing certain saves against some of the enemy creatures. This would be done by quietly and secretly removing something like a proficiency, spell, or class feature from the PC's character sheet. Then, if they later notice it's gone/try to use it and ask about it, I would respond with something like "[Feature]? No, [PC name] never had [feature]. What are you talking about?".
I love the horror and challenge of this idea, but I wonder: Would the player have to refresh their character sheet page in order for the missing feature to be apparent? I feel like this is probably the case. I don't want to have to tell everyone to refresh their character sheets after I alter something because I don't want them to get suspicious --I want it to be a surprise when they are looking over their sheet or go to use the feature and it is mysteriously gone.
Also, would it be the same issue if the players used character sheets on Roll20? I would use Roll20 for character sheets if that wasn't the case, but this would be something new to everyone. Since we started playing together, we've just used the free Roll20 as a battlemap and managed our characters on dndbeyond. Would I be able to have everyone's usable character sheet in the Roll20 game without purchasing any of the source material on there?
Just a word of warning, this is getting dangerously close to PvP, or rather, DMvP. I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I found out that you'd secretly edited my character sheet. Much more so if you pretended that you didn't - I'd feel like you were gaslighting me. Alternatively, I'd assume that it was a glitch or I'd forgotten to add it in and edit it back in. Especially if I knew for a fact that I had it - for example, if I'm a L5 Wizard with +4 Int but I only know 13 spells, I'll know for a fact that something is wrong.
Every table is different, but I'd make 100% that all the players are fine with your plan before doing it. Otherwise, just use DM fiat - tell them that while they character doesn't realise this, the attack removed their knowledge of a spell. Otherwise, there might be a lot of frustration (which may or may not be directed at you) and a reduction in trust.
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I really like the idea, but I have to echo Linklite's comments. Firstly, Roll20 will let you edit the sheets on the fly, even if you switch tabs from their main sheet to spell list, or expand the info for a spell they will see that (this is useful if you're trying to direct new players to things in their sheet).
If the players aren't aware that their sheet has changed, they will definitely question it and tell you it's wrong. They won't initially see it as a mystery or question you with "well why has this gone"? A fairly similar example, I had an NPC replaced by a doppelganger. Mid way through a quest, the players questioned me as to why I was getting details wrong, when in fact I was playing on the fact that the doppelganger didn't know certain details and it was supposed to be a clue that something was up. Rather than the players thinking "hmm, why is he saying something different" the reaction I got was "hold on a minute, you told us last week it was this, and now it's this, which is it?" which was directed at me as a DM not towards the NPC in roleplay.
If they know up front things may change or be confusing, they will accept it easier, but that may lose some of the mystery. Like what Linklite said, if they question it, you will have to tell them it's gone, but they have to roleplay it as if they never knew of it. Maybe their character could remember intimidating people before but be confused as to why they can't do it now, and they don't remember how to.
Then, if they later notice it's gone/try to use it and ask about it, I would respond with something like "[Feature]? No, [PC name] never had [feature]. What are you talking about?".
This is how this would play out on my table:
Player: Wait, where is this feature in DnDbeyond? I can't find it.
Me: No, PC never had this feature
Player: Yes they did, I just can't remember where it is. (spends time searching) No it is gone! Stupid DnDbeyond is so buggy! It just randomly removed this character feature! Now I can't even use DnDbeyond anymore if I can't rely on it! Next time I'll have my character sheet on paper! Why are we paying for this crap anyways?
Don’t play mind games with your players. It might be fun for you, but it will not be for them. Just tell the players that it happened. It’s a role playing game. Let them role play having forgotten something.
And similar to what dermaniac says above. I’d just assume it was a technology glitch and add it back on. Then you get to explain how you were trying to trick me. Then everyone else starts going over their sheets with a microscope, and now you’ve lost credibility with everyone at the table.
Thank you for everyone’s responses! This gave me some new perspectives for me figure out how to tackle that idea.
I plan to let everyone know that things could be confusing at times and set that expectation for them. It sucks to have some of the surprises removed but there is the small chance that even if I’m heavily implying that memory of a character got removed, they might not get it. If that’s the case, I may have them roll something like an intelligence check when the memory is drained from them and then somehow describe that something has gone missing
There still a lot that I need to prepare and develop for this game, but thank you guys for giving me advice. I’ll continue to work this out.
So this is hard, I know you want to "surprise" the players, but messing with their sheets covertly I don't believe is the way to do it. For one thing, some people have a close to eidetic memory or a lot of memory invested in their sheets, and may well know they been messed with prior to your dramatic revelation.
Also, functionally "surprising" the players with memory loss doesn't really jive with how memory loss works in actual afflictions of the mind ranging from amnesia to dementia. Some forms of knowledge the sufferer knows are gone when they're gone. Aphasics struggle because they knew the words were there, and aren't surprised by the confrontation with the "missing" they just fight it. If I don't know how to speak a language anymore, I won't try to engage in conversation people conversing in something I don't understand. Disable the character, and let the player adapt to the character's new normal (though I think a lot of magical memory loss can be recovered through varying degrees of restoration, your call though).
Matt Colville has a suite of "psionics" in some of his works that mess with players like "mind swapping" where players have to trade character sheets and the like. It's just more fun for all involved if everyone is let in on the drama at the same time. Otherwise you're going to have players trying to perform actions competently to be ambushed by "ah, you don't know that anymore" where real minds contending with knowledge gaps are usually contending with the knowledge of "missing pieces" where's they'd probably avoid the "spotlight" for the capacity in question.
Bottom line, sure a DM may have license to introduce transformational effects on an otherwise functional character, but if they do so they need to be up front rather than let the damage sit around unrecognized until the appropriately dramatically ironic moment. I mean I'd say even games more centered around psychological horror don't play it quite this way. And it could be easily misconstrued as a DM power flex.
I would like to offer my perspective on what is essentially the exact opposite situation. I was DMing CoS Death House for my first DM experience and everything was going great. Along the way, I had a rough idea of my players stats but when the party dinged level three and chose subclasses, things got a little weird. The party rogue’s dex and int had been rounded out and up when they chose the arcane trickster as their subclass. I had checked my notes on original party rolls and sure enough, the player had enhanced his rogue. It was an absolute gut-punch and almost ended the campaign.
I strongly recommend that you get not just permission from the players, but buy-in too on the when and how any edits will be made, because it does feel like cheating if you don’t.
So here's an idea that allows you to play mind games with your players and doesn't penalize them: add things to their character sheets.
Give them half-proficiency in something they would not expect. Give them a new language, or a tool proficiency, or a piece of equipment, or a feat. When they look at their sheets, they might think it's an error and delete it, but you can go back in and re-add it. Then you can have them discover in-game why they don't remember learning those things and having access to those items or features. You end up in the same place and give your players RP fodder as well as minor, but neat, things to play with.
I would find it easier to make a note of who has lost a skill, and when they next try to use it, describe them struggling to remember it, and tell them then that they have lost their skill proficiency in whatever. It'll keep it a secret, as even if your plan to edit sheets worked, they would check after every event to see if they had lost anything as soon as they realise what's going on. Better to let them think they have proficiency until they go to use it.
I plan to let everyone know that things could be confusing at times and set that expectation for them. It sucks to have some of the surprises removed but there is the small chance that even if I’m heavily implying that memory of a character got removed, they might not get it. If that’s the case, I may have them roll something like an intelligence check when the memory is drained from them and then somehow describe that something has gone missing
You can also just trust your players to embrace the role-play elements of the "memory loss" and not be sneaky about it.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I now feel kind of bad about thinking this idea was cool. It was an optional side note that the creator made and I guess I idealized it in my head. I know how casual my friends are about dnd so I assumed it would be okay. I didn’t want to flex or play mind games or screw them over, I just thought it would add to the horror of the creatures. I probably won’t do anything like this now, it’s kinda corny anyways.
Again, I appreciate everyone’s advice. It seems like the consensus is that it’s not a great idea, so I’ll follow that.
You can implement the mechanic without altering the PC sheets. It does mean that you have to track, on a micro-management level track, each PC stat bonus, PB, and proficiency and then subtract the sum of the bonus for the roll from the total. It would basically operate like the Stone of Ill Luck.
Sneaky and dastardly, I'm aware. But every time the player looks at their sheet to recheck the total and then looks at you confused because their attempt at "insert_skill_here" failed will be a great physical analogue to someone who has forgotten how to do a thing that they just tried and failed.
I'm with the rest of the dogpile on *absolutely not* altering the PCs sheets with mind game intent. That's foul territory in my games. But your question was not if it were a good idea, but how to do it. Mechanically, you track all of the missing data offsets and apply them as required for mechanical effect. Narratively, you have to describe to the player what their character is experiencing when they attempt the lost skill and the result of the attempt. The imperative part: the players have to be on board with all of this before you begin.
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I now feel kind of bad about thinking this idea was cool. It was an optional side note that the creator made and I guess I idealized it in my head. I know how casual my friends are about dnd so I assumed it would be okay. I didn’t want to flex or play mind games or screw them over, I just thought it would add to the horror of the creatures. I probably won’t do anything like this now, it’s kinda corny anyways.
Again, I appreciate everyone’s advice. It seems like the consensus is that it’s not a great idea, so I’ll follow that.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of a horror-themed game that affects the characters' minds in the ways you described. You just need the players invested in it and make sure they're willing to go along for the ride first.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I now feel kind of bad about thinking this idea was cool. It was an optional side note that the creator made and I guess I idealized it in my head. I know how casual my friends are about dnd so I assumed it would be okay. I didn’t want to flex or play mind games or screw them over, I just thought it would add to the horror of the creatures. I probably won’t do anything like this now, it’s kinda corny anyways.
Again, I appreciate everyone’s advice. It seems like the consensus is that it’s not a great idea, so I’ll follow that.
You shouldn't feel bad. It's really a really common thing to want to surprise your players, and what players should know vs. what their characters know is a notoriously blurry line that differs from DM to DM.
I do think in the right kind of group this could work just fine by being upfront with your players about it. I'd enjoy roleplaying a character who is getting progressively confused/panicky about what's happening to them. It can also totally work as you presented it provided you have the right group dynamic and your players trust you, but messing with character information is something you need to always do carefully and thoughtfully.
I now feel kind of bad about thinking this idea was cool. It was an optional side note that the creator made and I guess I idealized it in my head. I know how casual my friends are about dnd so I assumed it would be okay. I didn’t want to flex or play mind games or screw them over, I just thought it would add to the horror of the creatures. I probably won’t do anything like this now, it’s kinda corny anyways.
Again, I appreciate everyone’s advice. It seems like the consensus is that it’s not a great idea, so I’ll follow that.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of a horror-themed game that affects the characters' minds in the ways you described. You just need the players invested in it and make sure they're willing to go along for the ride first.
No one was saying a messing with the minds of players can't be a fun ride. As a long time horror player myself I know plenty of game systems where this is done. However, "sneaking" changes onto a character sheet via DMs DDB campaign access to a player's character sheets isn't a good technique to do so. For one, again just speaking as a long time horror player, it's relying on a DM de facto admin access to "get" the players with a gimmick. Most TTRPG horror games still have their roots in table top play and can accomplish the effects without sneak edits. The "messing" is welcome, it just needs to be above board so the players are in on it. It's much more fair and open and cooperative play to not have the character "discover a discrepency" on their character sheet (which they will treat as a glitch and not an in game effect until it's clarified, but instead to simply have the DM note the consequence and then introduce the consequence to the player when the character is being affected by it. A simple "actually, from [event back when] you can no longer do that due to alterations of your memory, for the time being remove or ignore that trait on your sheet" works or if its necessary for game narrative to keep the wool over the player's eyes, taking whatever mechanical action the character makes and then the DM adds or discounts the results of the action based on the "mind messing" effect before they narrate the results, "No, you're still not making your mark, and yeah, this doesn't feel quite right to you, I mean you think you know how to do this, but something ain't firing on all cylinders in your head." There's lots of writing on how to do this right, "use your DM access to the sheet" is never on the list.
The idea is solid itself, it's just the implementation was rocky. Some suggestions that might help it not only work, but work well:
- Make sure that they know that it's possibility. Just put in session zero a clause that some monsters may cause them to forget skills, abilities, etc.
- Keep track of all the changes and who you made them to. Some changes may not be as appreciated as others, so be willing to reverse them if it bothers the player too much.
- Provide a way to reclaim those losses. Maybe a quest or ritual or something that allows them to overcome it.
- I liked an earlier suggestion - give them new skills. Stuff they've learned, but "forgot" that they'd learnt them. It becomes a nicer experience if it benefits them as well.
It's a good idea. It just needed to a bit of tweaking to make sure your players enjoyed it, that's all.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Sorry guys, I got kinda bummed out thinking I wouldn't be able to implement this: I was overthinking it a bit because I'm a perfectionist and that makes it daunting to prepare as a first-time DM.
I definitely am going to have to come back to whether I want to implement something similar or not, but I've got a whole lot to prepare before that so once I'm more confident in my ability to run the module and ready to have a session 0 with everyone, then I'll work it out. Again, thank everyone so much for so much feedback and advice! I didn't expect so many replies to my thread. I think that now I'm not being all stinky-brained about it, I can definitely use y'alls advice to work something out that is fun for the players and myself.
Just a word of warning, this is getting dangerously close to PvP, or rather, DMvP. I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I found out that you'd secretly edited my character sheet. Much more so if you pretended that you didn't - I'd feel like you were gaslighting me. Alternatively, I'd assume that it was a glitch or I'd forgotten to add it in and edit it back in. Especially if I knew for a fact that I had it - for example, if I'm a L5 Wizard with +4 Int but I only know 13 spells, I'll know for a fact that something is wrong.
Every table is different, but I'd make 100% that all the players are fine with your plan before doing it. Otherwise, just use DM fiat - tell them that while they character doesn't realise this, the attack removed their knowledge of a spell. Otherwise, there might be a lot of frustration (which may or may not be directed at you) and a reduction in trust.
I'm starting to prepare for my first time DMing with a one-shot for my friends. I found a really interesting module that includes mystery and memory loss/memory-consuming eldritch horrors and the like.
The creator made a note that something really spooky that could be added as a permanent effect is that memory or skill could be lost failing certain saves against some of the enemy creatures. This would be done by quietly and secretly removing something like a proficiency, spell, or class feature from the PC's character sheet. Then, if they later notice it's gone/try to use it and ask about it, I would respond with something like "[Feature]? No, [PC name] never had [feature]. What are you talking about?".
I love the horror and challenge of this idea, but I wonder: Would the player have to refresh their character sheet page in order for the missing feature to be apparent? I feel like this is probably the case. I don't want to have to tell everyone to refresh their character sheets after I alter something because I don't want them to get suspicious --I want it to be a surprise when they are looking over their sheet or go to use the feature and it is mysteriously gone.
Also, would it be the same issue if the players used character sheets on Roll20? I would use Roll20 for character sheets if that wasn't the case, but this would be something new to everyone. Since we started playing together, we've just used the free Roll20 as a battlemap and managed our characters on dndbeyond. Would I be able to have everyone's usable character sheet in the Roll20 game without purchasing any of the source material on there?
You could always tell them, I mean I'd be ticked off if a lost something like extra attack but less so if I knew why.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Sorry i accidently double- quoted. I'm still quite new to dnd beyond.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
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I'm starting to prepare for my first time DMing with a one-shot for my friends. I found a really interesting module that includes mystery and memory loss/memory-consuming eldritch horrors and the like.
The creator made a note that something really spooky that could be added as a permanent effect is that memory or skill could be lost failing certain saves against some of the enemy creatures. This would be done by quietly and secretly removing something like a proficiency, spell, or class feature from the PC's character sheet. Then, if they later notice it's gone/try to use it and ask about it, I would respond with something like "[Feature]? No, [PC name] never had [feature]. What are you talking about?".
I love the horror and challenge of this idea, but I wonder: Would the player have to refresh their character sheet page in order for the missing feature to be apparent? I feel like this is probably the case. I don't want to have to tell everyone to refresh their character sheets after I alter something because I don't want them to get suspicious --I want it to be a surprise when they are looking over their sheet or go to use the feature and it is mysteriously gone.
Also, would it be the same issue if the players used character sheets on Roll20? I would use Roll20 for character sheets if that wasn't the case, but this would be something new to everyone. Since we started playing together, we've just used the free Roll20 as a battlemap and managed our characters on dndbeyond. Would I be able to have everyone's usable character sheet in the Roll20 game without purchasing any of the source material on there?
Just a word of warning, this is getting dangerously close to PvP, or rather, DMvP. I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I found out that you'd secretly edited my character sheet. Much more so if you pretended that you didn't - I'd feel like you were gaslighting me. Alternatively, I'd assume that it was a glitch or I'd forgotten to add it in and edit it back in. Especially if I knew for a fact that I had it - for example, if I'm a L5 Wizard with +4 Int but I only know 13 spells, I'll know for a fact that something is wrong.
Every table is different, but I'd make 100% that all the players are fine with your plan before doing it. Otherwise, just use DM fiat - tell them that while they character doesn't realise this, the attack removed their knowledge of a spell. Otherwise, there might be a lot of frustration (which may or may not be directed at you) and a reduction in trust.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I really like the idea, but I have to echo Linklite's comments. Firstly, Roll20 will let you edit the sheets on the fly, even if you switch tabs from their main sheet to spell list, or expand the info for a spell they will see that (this is useful if you're trying to direct new players to things in their sheet).
If the players aren't aware that their sheet has changed, they will definitely question it and tell you it's wrong. They won't initially see it as a mystery or question you with "well why has this gone"? A fairly similar example, I had an NPC replaced by a doppelganger. Mid way through a quest, the players questioned me as to why I was getting details wrong, when in fact I was playing on the fact that the doppelganger didn't know certain details and it was supposed to be a clue that something was up. Rather than the players thinking "hmm, why is he saying something different" the reaction I got was "hold on a minute, you told us last week it was this, and now it's this, which is it?" which was directed at me as a DM not towards the NPC in roleplay.
If they know up front things may change or be confusing, they will accept it easier, but that may lose some of the mystery. Like what Linklite said, if they question it, you will have to tell them it's gone, but they have to roleplay it as if they never knew of it. Maybe their character could remember intimidating people before but be confused as to why they can't do it now, and they don't remember how to.
This is how this would play out on my table:
Player: Wait, where is this feature in DnDbeyond? I can't find it.
Me: No, PC never had this feature
Player: Yes they did, I just can't remember where it is. (spends time searching) No it is gone! Stupid DnDbeyond is so buggy! It just randomly removed this character feature! Now I can't even use DnDbeyond anymore if I can't rely on it! Next time I'll have my character sheet on paper! Why are we paying for this crap anyways?
Don’t play mind games with your players. It might be fun for you, but it will not be for them. Just tell the players that it happened. It’s a role playing game. Let them role play having forgotten something.
And similar to what dermaniac says above. I’d just assume it was a technology glitch and add it back on. Then you get to explain how you were trying to trick me. Then everyone else starts going over their sheets with a microscope, and now you’ve lost credibility with everyone at the table.
Thank you for everyone’s responses! This gave me some new perspectives for me figure out how to tackle that idea.
I plan to let everyone know that things could be confusing at times and set that expectation for them. It sucks to have some of the surprises removed but there is the small chance that even if I’m heavily implying that memory of a character got removed, they might not get it. If that’s the case, I may have them roll something like an intelligence check when the memory is drained from them and then somehow describe that something has gone missing
There still a lot that I need to prepare and develop for this game, but thank you guys for giving me advice. I’ll continue to work this out.
So this is hard, I know you want to "surprise" the players, but messing with their sheets covertly I don't believe is the way to do it. For one thing, some people have a close to eidetic memory or a lot of memory invested in their sheets, and may well know they been messed with prior to your dramatic revelation.
Also, functionally "surprising" the players with memory loss doesn't really jive with how memory loss works in actual afflictions of the mind ranging from amnesia to dementia. Some forms of knowledge the sufferer knows are gone when they're gone. Aphasics struggle because they knew the words were there, and aren't surprised by the confrontation with the "missing" they just fight it. If I don't know how to speak a language anymore, I won't try to engage in conversation people conversing in something I don't understand. Disable the character, and let the player adapt to the character's new normal (though I think a lot of magical memory loss can be recovered through varying degrees of restoration, your call though).
Matt Colville has a suite of "psionics" in some of his works that mess with players like "mind swapping" where players have to trade character sheets and the like. It's just more fun for all involved if everyone is let in on the drama at the same time. Otherwise you're going to have players trying to perform actions competently to be ambushed by "ah, you don't know that anymore" where real minds contending with knowledge gaps are usually contending with the knowledge of "missing pieces" where's they'd probably avoid the "spotlight" for the capacity in question.
Bottom line, sure a DM may have license to introduce transformational effects on an otherwise functional character, but if they do so they need to be up front rather than let the damage sit around unrecognized until the appropriately dramatically ironic moment. I mean I'd say even games more centered around psychological horror don't play it quite this way. And it could be easily misconstrued as a DM power flex.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I would like to offer my perspective on what is essentially the exact opposite situation. I was DMing CoS Death House for my first DM experience and everything was going great. Along the way, I had a rough idea of my players stats but when the party dinged level three and chose subclasses, things got a little weird. The party rogue’s dex and int had been rounded out and up when they chose the arcane trickster as their subclass. I had checked my notes on original party rolls and sure enough, the player had enhanced his rogue. It was an absolute gut-punch and almost ended the campaign.
I strongly recommend that you get not just permission from the players, but buy-in too on the when and how any edits will be made, because it does feel like cheating if you don’t.
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So here's an idea that allows you to play mind games with your players and doesn't penalize them: add things to their character sheets.
Give them half-proficiency in something they would not expect. Give them a new language, or a tool proficiency, or a piece of equipment, or a feat. When they look at their sheets, they might think it's an error and delete it, but you can go back in and re-add it. Then you can have them discover in-game why they don't remember learning those things and having access to those items or features. You end up in the same place and give your players RP fodder as well as minor, but neat, things to play with.
I would find it easier to make a note of who has lost a skill, and when they next try to use it, describe them struggling to remember it, and tell them then that they have lost their skill proficiency in whatever. It'll keep it a secret, as even if your plan to edit sheets worked, they would check after every event to see if they had lost anything as soon as they realise what's going on. Better to let them think they have proficiency until they go to use it.
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You can also just trust your players to embrace the role-play elements of the "memory loss" and not be sneaky about it.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I now feel kind of bad about thinking this idea was cool. It was an optional side note that the creator made and I guess I idealized it in my head. I know how casual my friends are about dnd so I assumed it would be okay. I didn’t want to flex or play mind games or screw them over, I just thought it would add to the horror of the creatures. I probably won’t do anything like this now, it’s kinda corny anyways.
Again, I appreciate everyone’s advice. It seems like the consensus is that it’s not a great idea, so I’ll follow that.
You can implement the mechanic without altering the PC sheets. It does mean that you have to track, on a micro-management level track, each PC stat bonus, PB, and proficiency and then subtract the sum of the bonus for the roll from the total. It would basically operate like the Stone of Ill Luck.
Sneaky and dastardly, I'm aware. But every time the player looks at their sheet to recheck the total and then looks at you confused because their attempt at "insert_skill_here" failed will be a great physical analogue to someone who has forgotten how to do a thing that they just tried and failed.
I'm with the rest of the dogpile on *absolutely not* altering the PCs sheets with mind game intent. That's foul territory in my games. But your question was not if it were a good idea, but how to do it. Mechanically, you track all of the missing data offsets and apply them as required for mechanical effect. Narratively, you have to describe to the player what their character is experiencing when they attempt the lost skill and the result of the attempt. The imperative part: the players have to be on board with all of this before you begin.
Edti: grammar, cause coffee
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
There's nothing wrong with the idea of a horror-themed game that affects the characters' minds in the ways you described. You just need the players invested in it and make sure they're willing to go along for the ride first.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You shouldn't feel bad. It's really a really common thing to want to surprise your players, and what players should know vs. what their characters know is a notoriously blurry line that differs from DM to DM.
I do think in the right kind of group this could work just fine by being upfront with your players about it. I'd enjoy roleplaying a character who is getting progressively confused/panicky about what's happening to them. It can also totally work as you presented it provided you have the right group dynamic and your players trust you, but messing with character information is something you need to always do carefully and thoughtfully.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
No one was saying a messing with the minds of players can't be a fun ride. As a long time horror player myself I know plenty of game systems where this is done. However, "sneaking" changes onto a character sheet via DMs DDB campaign access to a player's character sheets isn't a good technique to do so. For one, again just speaking as a long time horror player, it's relying on a DM de facto admin access to "get" the players with a gimmick. Most TTRPG horror games still have their roots in table top play and can accomplish the effects without sneak edits. The "messing" is welcome, it just needs to be above board so the players are in on it. It's much more fair and open and cooperative play to not have the character "discover a discrepency" on their character sheet (which they will treat as a glitch and not an in game effect until it's clarified, but instead to simply have the DM note the consequence and then introduce the consequence to the player when the character is being affected by it. A simple "actually, from [event back when] you can no longer do that due to alterations of your memory, for the time being remove or ignore that trait on your sheet" works or if its necessary for game narrative to keep the wool over the player's eyes, taking whatever mechanical action the character makes and then the DM adds or discounts the results of the action based on the "mind messing" effect before they narrate the results, "No, you're still not making your mark, and yeah, this doesn't feel quite right to you, I mean you think you know how to do this, but something ain't firing on all cylinders in your head." There's lots of writing on how to do this right, "use your DM access to the sheet" is never on the list.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The idea is solid itself, it's just the implementation was rocky. Some suggestions that might help it not only work, but work well:
- Make sure that they know that it's possibility. Just put in session zero a clause that some monsters may cause them to forget skills, abilities, etc.
- Keep track of all the changes and who you made them to. Some changes may not be as appreciated as others, so be willing to reverse them if it bothers the player too much.
- Provide a way to reclaim those losses. Maybe a quest or ritual or something that allows them to overcome it.
- I liked an earlier suggestion - give them new skills. Stuff they've learned, but "forgot" that they'd learnt them. It becomes a nicer experience if it benefits them as well.
It's a good idea. It just needed to a bit of tweaking to make sure your players enjoyed it, that's all.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Sorry guys, I got kinda bummed out thinking I wouldn't be able to implement this: I was overthinking it a bit because I'm a perfectionist and that makes it daunting to prepare as a first-time DM.
I definitely am going to have to come back to whether I want to implement something similar or not, but I've got a whole lot to prepare before that so once I'm more confident in my ability to run the module and ready to have a session 0 with everyone, then I'll work it out. Again, thank everyone so much for so much feedback and advice! I didn't expect so many replies to my thread. I think that now I'm not being all stinky-brained about it, I can definitely use y'alls advice to work something out that is fun for the players and myself.
You could always tell them, I mean I'd be ticked off if a lost something like extra attack but less so if I knew why.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Sorry i accidently double- quoted. I'm still quite new to dnd beyond.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.