We have some newbies at the local club and I have heard a few people discussing that they are viciously metagaming, going so far as t oask for the CR of the opponents, and also going quite murderhobo-y as well, wanting to fight everything.
I can handle the Muderhobo side of it already, but I want to make a oneshot which will punish them if they try to metagame. I do not take this on lightly, but this is after they have been spoken to about it. One of them is also a severe powergamer, which again isn't too much of an issue in itself, but combined with extreme metagaming and a tendancy to try and direct the others, it has impacted the games.
My goal is to take iconic monsters which would be easily combatted by metagaming and then adjust them to make the metagame not work - making them rely on in-game discovery rather than meta knowledge.
The first thought is the Troll, and making Fire not stop the healing.
Then a Basilisk which screeches rather than glares, petrifying you with it's sound.
That sort of thing. So, the question is - what would you consider to be the most easily meta'd monsters in the game? I am expecting to run at level 8, so they can be reasonably powerful and take a bit of a beating. I also want to make it a fun game which, if not meta'd, is simply an enjoyable oneshot, and if meta'd, becomes a challenge (anticipating a wasted turn of metagaming before they respond properly).
We have some newbies at the local club and I have heard a few people discussing that they are viciously metagaming, going so far as t oask for the CR of the opponents, and also going quite murderhobo-y as well, wanting to fight everything.
I can handle the Muderhobo side of it already, but I want to make a oneshot which will punish them if they try to metagame. I do not take this on lightly, but this is after they have been spoken to about it. One of them is also a severe powergamer, which again isn't too much of an issue in itself, but combined with extreme metagaming and a tendancy to try and direct the others, it has impacted the games.
My goal is to take iconic monsters which would be easily combatted by metagaming and then adjust them to make the metagame not work - making them rely on in-game discovery rather than meta knowledge.
The first thought is the Troll, and making Fire not stop the healing.
Then a Basilisk which screeches rather than glares, petrifying you with it's sound.
That sort of thing. So, the question is - what would you consider to be the most easily meta'd monsters in the game? I am expecting to run at level 8, so they can be reasonably powerful and take a bit of a beating. I also want to make it a fun game which, if not meta'd, is simply an enjoyable oneshot, and if meta'd, becomes a challenge (anticipating a wasted turn of metagaming before they respond properly).
First off, why is anyone still playing with these people?
Second, yeah, there is nothing stopping you from taking any and all monsters and ignoring completely the statblocks. At level 8, assuming a party size of 5, I would suggest an Adult Dragon with a full spread of spells and spell slots like an 8th level Sorcerer, at least 5 LR's and LA's that include cantrips/1st level spells.
But ultimately, most DM's don't have the time nor experience to blow up stat blocks. The problem is tossing these problem players. Because it sure does not sound like they will change their ways.
We have some newbies at the local club and I have heard a few people discussing that they are viciously metagaming, going so far as t oask for the CR of the opponents, and also going quite murderhobo-y as well, wanting to fight everything.
I can handle the Muderhobo side of it already, but I want to make a oneshot which will punish them if they try to metagame. I do not take this on lightly, but this is after they have been spoken to about it. One of them is also a severe powergamer, which again isn't too much of an issue in itself, but combined with extreme metagaming and a tendancy to try and direct the others, it has impacted the games.
My goal is to take iconic monsters which would be easily combatted by metagaming and then adjust them to make the metagame not work - making them rely on in-game discovery rather than meta knowledge.
The first thought is the Troll, and making Fire not stop the healing.
Then a Basilisk which screeches rather than glares, petrifying you with it's sound.
That sort of thing. So, the question is - what would you consider to be the most easily meta'd monsters in the game? I am expecting to run at level 8, so they can be reasonably powerful and take a bit of a beating. I also want to make it a fun game which, if not meta'd, is simply an enjoyable oneshot, and if meta'd, becomes a challenge (anticipating a wasted turn of metagaming before they respond properly).
First off, why is anyone still playing with these people?
Second, yeah, there is nothing stopping you from taking any and all monsters and ignoring completely the statblocks. At level 8, assuming a party size of 5, I would suggest an Adult Dragon with a full spread of spells and spell slots like an 8th level Sorcerer, at least 5 LR's and LA's that include cantrips/1st level spells.
But ultimately, most DM's don't have the time nor experience to blow up stat blocks. The problem is tossing these problem players. Because it sure does not sound like they will change their ways.
I appreciate the advice, but the problem we have right now is simply summarised:
Baldur's Gate 3.
These are new players, who are approaching D&D with the video game mindset because they started "d&d" with a video game. They have oftem misquoted rules because "that's how it works in BG3".
However, they are new, and I am patient, and I am willing to show them that they need to adapt somewhat to play D&D as a tabletop game - lessons like "You're not the hero, the party is", "It's what my character would do is not an excuse", and "There is no reason your character would know everything", "Readign every book in your backstory as an 800-year-old elf will not overcome this", and the like can be taught.
Why do we still play with them? We're playing at a welcoming drop-in club, where every week is a new oneshot by various DM's within the club, and we don't like the idea of turning away new players because they've gotten too into the game and memorised the monsters. I firmly believe that they are just going through the initial "I can do anything, so I will game the system" stage that some people go through (I myself have made powergamey characters, and only stopped using them because I favour character over power).
Simply put, I believe that with some guidance, they will grow out of it. And, with their creativity and commitment to roleplay, they will be fun players to play D&D with. So, I want to give them the lesson in-game that their metagaming actions are not the best approach. I will reiterate each time that it's a lesson, verbally, and not just "punish" them. So if they see a troll, shout about fire damage and so forth, and then find out fire doesn't work here, I will offer guidance around metagaming for them in a short lectural statement before continuing the game - in a "The moral of this is..." sort of way!
So please - don't try to discourage me from educating them, as I'm as stubborn as a golden retriever and patient enough to not suffer from it!
Kobolds. Everyone underestimates kobolds. Make them absolutely baller. Take gladiator stats or something and then add kobold’s Pact Tactics and Darkvision and set a pack of them loose on the party. 🤣😂🤣
Kobolds. Everyone underestimates kobolds. Make them absolutely baller. Take gladiator stats or something and then add kobold’s Pact Tactics and Darkvision and set a pack of them loose on the party. 🤣😂🤣
It is amazing what a Flying Scale Sorcerer Kobold can do, when played intelligently. It won't do much alone to an 8th level party, but when 50 Kobolds rain down 50 arrows on a party.....
coming of the back of the previous posts. Tucker's kobalds. the kobalds are weak but they have protected their lair with anti-adventurer traps. fire acid, pit traps etc. every room is a new device to kill the players needing to be dealt with until they slow down and take the time to work things out.
Also though, I prefer not to let players immediately know what they are facing. use descriptions rather than names, partly this is because I like to run a bit of horror so the unknown is scary. as soon as the players know what the enemy is the fear is gone. as for wanting to know about CR? why if they are not the DM they do not need to know this. In most games some metagaming if going to happen. the trolls are a great example, and you want the players to learn so use obscure monsters that you don't see everyday. and if you do changes the statblock to have fire weakness or not I'd recommend being consistent that way if the players learn what something is weak to in game they get rewarded in the next encounter. If everything is changing to fool the players then there's no point paying attention, then it'll be lowest common denominator logic, force or psychic damage as less monsters are resistant to those etc
My DM changes monsters all the time. Changing things is not a problem but it has nothing to do with why we do our best not to metagame; it is because we deal with metagaming at the player level. In game hints are never the solution to out of game issues. Why would you go to the trouble of putting together some sort of passive aggressive lesson session where nothing is as expected when players metagame—the point of which many, if not all, of the players will certainly fail to grasp—when you can just tell a person they are metagaming, explain how it is metagaming and help them understand why good game play eschews metagaming?
My friend uses dragon stats for his go-to reskin. He's given rats, humanoids, and even a giant goose breath weapons and multiattack.
I frequently just grab a stat block I like and describe the monster totally differently because the written description doesn't suit my universe. My players never know the names of the creatures they encounter unless it's obvious (like a ghost or owlbear). They had recurring encounters with quasits for an entire campaign and only knew them as "those little green guys". Helps keep immersion if it's truly a creature the characters would not have met before, and limits metagaming.
The last monster I changed to metagame around was a hydra; the PCs ended up not figuring it out and just bashing it down without any fire damage, which did wind up with someone getting mauled by an eight headed hydra.
I would speak to them about it, honestly. Tell them you'd like to run a game where things will happen that they cannot anticipate. A game where they need to learn what to do in-game rather than deciding what to do based on their knowledge as players.
No one "wins" when you just blindside them with gotchas. They'll just be mad and making them mad doesn't further your goal of persuading them to change their habits. Be upfront and sincere. Tell them that you think the game is richer when you stay deeper in your character and you want to show them what it's like. Let them buy into it.
Then during the game, call them out on it when they metagame, or just tease them with phrases like, "Oh, is that what you think will happen?" Punishing characters for player behavior is never as efficient or effective as just speaking to their face about the behavior you want to discourage.
No one "wins" when you just blindside them with gotchas. They'll just be mad and making them mad doesn't further your goal of persuading them to change their habits.
Well, maybe. If you just make the monsters customized, and make it reasonably obvious that they're customized, people won't metagame for the simple reason that they can't (hm... something tells me that Lava Troll does not have its regeneration stopped by fire...).
No one "wins" when you just blindside them with gotchas. They'll just be mad and making them mad doesn't further your goal of persuading them to change their habits.
Well, maybe. If you just make the monsters customized, and make it reasonably obvious that they're customized, people won't metagame for the simple reason that they can't (hm... something tells me that Lava Troll does not have its regeneration stopped by fire...).
You could use Pixies or a Wizard with Polymorph, either to turn the players into animals or something else into one. Like, put some animal seemingly guarding a place but with some easy way to trap it nearby. Make it so that animal is a very powerful monster that the wizard transformed into a more maneageable beast to trap it because it was too dangerous and that the trap is there by design. That way if the players go murderhobo they get a nasty surprise.
As for monsters that are easy to metagame against... Well, it is well known that Slimes are very slow and that moving a bit to keep your distance is the best way to kill them. You could try to use that to lure people into traps that are close but not that close to them. Plus, since they can squeeze through small spaces they can come from anywhere or they could trap the players with gelatinous cubes. There is also a precedent of grey slimes variants with psychic attacks so you could alter the statblock to give them special abilities to fight at range or shove people into traps. And let's not forget that the main differentiation feature between slimes is their color so if they fight them in a dark area they won't know what kind of slime they are until they are hit since darkvision should not differentiate color.
Alternatively, you could use monsters that are more dangerous than the DC suggests (spectres, shadows, intellect devourers, ghosts, banshees) though those are rather well known so they ought to be supplemented by the environtment. Like, in one campaign I had a hallway with rooms in which a trap closed both ends with a puzzle while releasing the trap equivalent of the stinking cloud spell and a few spectres that would phase through walls, attack the players, then phase out. Next room had a portal to a realm of darkness surrounded by torches and an invisible poltergeist threw the torches to different ends of the room which caused the portal to release an effect like the Darkness spell and 1d6 shadows each round modified to see through magical darkness. To stop them from spawning they had to surround the portal again with a circle of torches but to do that they had to realize that there was a poltergeist in the room that was throwing 1d4 torches away each turn. Then came a mummy im the next room that was actually made out of someone the cult the PC were fighting had kidnapped and replaced with a doppelganger, so they were supposed to talk to the mummy instead of fighting it to realize that.
Or you could focus on monsters with weird effects or mechanics like how ghosts can age people, sphinxes can do time travel, night hags tend to attack when players are asleep...
As far as reskinning monsters... Well, I once had a fairy dragon pilot a Walking Armor and attacking from inside them so you could hide a monster inside another (construct or undead) to hide what they are facing or have something like a Mind Flayer use disguuse self to look like someone else.
Zombies that when you cut them up, their limbs become crawling claws.
Now, if'n ya dinnae mind...
lessons like "You're not the hero, the party is", "It's what my character would do is not an excuse", and "There is no reason your character would know everything", "Readign every book in your backstory as an 800-year-old elf will not overcome this", and the like can be taught.
I will reiterate each time that it's a lesson, verbally, and not just "punish" them. I will offer guidance around metagaming for them in a short lectural statement before continuing the game - in a "The moral of this is..." sort of way!
The kind of "anyone can join, no one is unwelcome" space that you talk about is where I cut my teeth so to speak, as a DM lol. It was a long time ago, and the only videogames we had were in arcades, but I was generally about the middle of the players in age, because I had adults and kids when I was but a teen in my games and I was not allowed to turn anyone away.
SO I am familiar with the metagaming and such, and honestly, if meta- and power- are your biggest issues, then you are getting off easy (rules lawyers were my bane and that was 1e era). I'm not going to suggest you don't teach them a lesson, nor am I going to say don't turn into a guest lecturer I can't. I do those things for money in real life, so it would be bad form).
What I am going to suggest is slightly different, however.
You noted that they are committed to role-playing. Use that. Give them a start that puts them up against a dozen low CR foes for *each person*. Something simple, humanoid, has straight 10 scores, 6 hp and an AC of 10 and does 1d6 damage on each attack. Faceless things, 4 feet tall, that gibber and gabber, jibber and jabber, mutter and whisper as they reach with wicked sharp talons and rend with sharp, spiky teeth.
The one shot, of course, is to find out where these things come from. They have no name, they have never been seen before. There are two things to learn about them:
1 - if a single person kills them, they will turn into a smoky dust that fades away. Then, the next round, they will reappear, completely new, and keep coming.
2 - if two or more people are involved in killing them, they stop reappearing. That is, they have to take damage from more than one PC in a given round to be killed.
This teaches them teamwork in combat. The longer they take to learn it -- without suggestion from the DM -- the longer the pure combat encounter takes (potentially not ending in the playtime allotted).
If they do defeat the critters, they will have absolutely munched through most of their murderhobo habits. There is a trail of bodies that leads to an old mine shaft. Not a dungeon. Never let them say dungeon, lol. This is an old mine shaft. A platform and winch system is available. the platform and ropes can support about 500 pounds, and the winch requires two people to operate it.
At the bottom of the shaft (600 feet down) there is another winch set up that can release a counterweight, so that the platform can go up. In order to get everyone down, they have to use the winch up top and the winch down below. TOp winch only sends things down, bottom winch only sends things up.
there is also a secret door hidden by bushes that leads to stairs that spiral upwards 600 feet because who the hell has time for winch stuff, but it is a secret, concealed door, and will need to be looked for.
THat last bit is important, because remember, it takes two people to operate a winch -- so two of them will be stuck doing nothing if they don't look.
But you go into detail on the winches. Because they are video game people -- you never look for secret, concealed doors in a video game when there is a solution right in front of you.
and 600 feet is 60d6. 210 points if you don't roll. Ain't no jumping down that shaft.
Deep in the mine, they branch out in left, right, and forward paths. All paths lead to a single cavern that stinks to high hell. Cold, lifeless, filled with rotting things, crammed with all manner of fungi, creepy crawlies everywhere. Among them are rot grubs.
Not a swarm. Just individual rot grubs.
each cavern has a tunnel (left side the tunnel is right, right side the tunnel is left, center the tunnel is forward). WHen passing through the room, have everyone roll a d20. on a 1 to 9, they get a rot grub, but don't tell them. They "feel a sharp pain that passes swiftly". They see a small spot like a needle poke somewhere on their person.
You can toss in undead or piercers or fungal monsters if'n ya want. I would also suggest slimes and molds.
the tunnel they choose has a rockfall trap -- really, the mine is unstable.
Assuming they make it to the last room, they find a sludge like pool that is 30' in diameter and go all out on the description of it, how it is foul and rancid and putrefying and blah blah. all the tunnels lead to it. Floating in the air 15' over it, crucified, is the mine's owner. Very dead. also very undead, but that will be for later.
Once everyone is in, the tunnels will collapse (the traps, remember), so now they will be trapped in a cavern with an unknown pool of something and a dead guy floating in the air.
Treasure is underneath the pool of sludge, which is just sludge, and only about two feet deep, but absolutely opaque, sticky, and so foul smelling that it will take a month to wash off.
Now, it will take someone standing on someone else's shoulders (who is in the pool) and *then* jumping up to reach the mine owner. Who is a notdead, really, cannot attack, but will try to talk them out of killing him.
He will play it up like he is cursed, and his curse is spreading, and that's the critters. But if they kill him, then the room floods two dozen critters per PC. IF they leave him alone, they only get one at a time per PC for as long as they are in there.
what they should be thinking about, however, is getting out of the room. Which he can tell them, but he will want them to free him first.
He does two attacks per round, and he requires being damaged by three PCs to take any damage at all, or by silvered weapons that are not magical. Magical weapons bounce off of him. Spells and magical attacks have no effect, dissipating harmlessly around him. He has an AC 10, and 24 HP.
He is affected by holy water, which does 2d12 damage to him. Healing spells will cause double the healing amount in damage. And the way out, that only he knows, is to use a trap door beneath the pool of sludge, which requires a key mixed in among his treasure, to open the complex lock (DC of 30).
The sludge, btw, will burn. It is just a thick, flammable sludge, but it *looks* scary as hell. Sadly, burning it will also suck out all the air in the cavern. Scooping it out will take 12 hours.
You can decide the treasure, but I suggest gems and raw ore with maybe some odds and ends that are not going to be damaged by being wet. All of it, of course, will stink for months.
The door leads to steps that go to the next mine level, where his altar to some demon or whatever is, and a long, straight passage out the side to a place that overlooks a village or whatever.
Now, this short little adventure teaches all the lessons you had in mind -- but doesn't require lectures. It is something that looks like a little sidequest in a video game, but isn't -- it is a way to teach Players that what they think they know is not everything, and that sometimes teamwork and thinking are required.
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i've been reading the new Book of Many Things and my recommendation is to give them a deck and let them go nuts. start in the Seelie Market where nothing costs gold and Pazrodine the ancient moonstone dragon removes thieves and unruly sort via Dream Breath or simply flying them away herself. this is the problem players' chance to do right and have fun.
...or it's a chance for metagamers to smash and grab a powerful deck of many things from the (functionally immortal nilbog) fortune teller. you may then escort them out or let them flee with their prize. especially if they're escorted out roughly, let them be approached by devil lady Hulgaz (also from the BoMT) who can offer them power and boons to defeat their enemies. these 'boons,' if you haven't read that far into the book, all include curses. they can take these curses or they can make another powerful enemy.
anyway, soon they're left alone with their cards. but it's not the whole deck. the book recommends that the fortune teller was using only Comet, Fates, Fool, Key, Knight, Rogue, Ruin, Sage, and Throne... which you'll notice is missing nasty things like Donjon, Talons, or Flames. Key and Knight might interest them. You might even trade in a Jester to replace Fool (since this is a oneshot anyway). but in particular, they might be immediately interested three other cards...
the Fates card which could undo the whole fiasco at the Seelie Market so they could go back in for whatever reason. perhaps sneak up on the dragon with the help of the devil lady, even. it won't work, but maybe it'll pass the time? or maybe they'll fall into the faywild and be subjected to dance contests, poetry slams, until they're begging to see the winter court side of things. the blood dripping, cold wind, running from the hunter side of things...
Sage/Vizier to tell them where to find the rest of the deck which could be in the abyssal realm of Xulregg, why not. whereupon the nilbog would show up and teleport them all there. rather than this be immediately fatal, i'd encourage them explore and gladly tell them every approximate CR they come across if they can just pass an intelligence skill check they're proficient in. each time. rolling once and accepting the results. good practice for them.
the Comet which, perhaps they know, was once drawn in defense of Gardmore Abby but which summoned the Grim Harrow (an army of those slain by the Skull card) who hunt down copies of the deck to destroy. maybe they'd like to try that themselves? maybe when they're overwhelmed by the undead, the dragon who threw them out in the first place could swoop in and save the day.
...just a bunch of sandbox fun with relatively low (or throw-away level) prep that isn't a bunch of combats they can cheese.
To my mind there are a few levels of stat changes that can prevent a meta-mindset.
Enemy HP - This one somewhat disappoints me with many DMs, because I've known loads who simple stick with fixed HP for enemies. Don't go with the fixed HP...roll it up (or choose a number within the range). This can be a great first sign that, yes, no two goblins are the same.
Enemy Equipment - Throw a creature a shield, or modify AC from time to time. Don't worry about a Kobold getting an extra +1 or +2 to their AC. It won't make huge differences in the grand scale, but will again signify that this is something that DMs can and will change.
Enemy Resistances - Why, oh, why aren't Intellect Devourer either resistant or immune to Psychic damage? Seems like some low hanging fruit. Mixing up the resistances can be really powewrful though so only for DMs who know what they're doing.
Enemy Injuries - If a Dragon has lived for a long time surely it will have developed a few injuries, maybe even scars? What would be wrong with giving a [Tooltip Not Found] a weakness to cold for example due to a scar won in a battle long ago. This kind lays in the realm of resistances though..****y for those who have some experience under their belts.
Rather than recommend creatures I'd just recommend principles, all of which are sort of set out in DMG...though could be better written. All of these elements are well within the scope of the DMs role and it's part of what we do when creating encounters. These elements help players to understand that yes, you might have read the MM, but no you aren't always going to be able to predict the way things will go down.
James Introcaso provided his father with the images of monsters in the MM, but nothing else, and asked his father to come up with a name and the abilities of the monster. How does this help? Because the monsters he developed look exactly the same as MM monsters, but are generally completely different in mechanics. That could really screw up a player who's memorized the MM.
Goblins and other swarmy types. Gang up bonus! For every goblin within 30ft of the player, give them +1 dmg and hit. Maybe advantage too. Also give them the ability to 10ft Reach from behind other characters (so technically Reach, but only across the space of another creature)
If you wanna be extra tricky. Make a character make an opposed dex or str check against the goblin's attack roll whenever they hit you will there are 2 or more within 5ft. Failure: restrained
I tried something like this once, but that wasn't because of metagaming, so I gave them a heads up. Nonetheless, they really felt like they have to clear them really quickly with AoE or something, or they will be in trouble
Hey all,
We have some newbies at the local club and I have heard a few people discussing that they are viciously metagaming, going so far as t oask for the CR of the opponents, and also going quite murderhobo-y as well, wanting to fight everything.
I can handle the Muderhobo side of it already, but I want to make a oneshot which will punish them if they try to metagame. I do not take this on lightly, but this is after they have been spoken to about it. One of them is also a severe powergamer, which again isn't too much of an issue in itself, but combined with extreme metagaming and a tendancy to try and direct the others, it has impacted the games.
My goal is to take iconic monsters which would be easily combatted by metagaming and then adjust them to make the metagame not work - making them rely on in-game discovery rather than meta knowledge.
The first thought is the Troll, and making Fire not stop the healing.
Then a Basilisk which screeches rather than glares, petrifying you with it's sound.
That sort of thing. So, the question is - what would you consider to be the most easily meta'd monsters in the game? I am expecting to run at level 8, so they can be reasonably powerful and take a bit of a beating. I also want to make it a fun game which, if not meta'd, is simply an enjoyable oneshot, and if meta'd, becomes a challenge (anticipating a wasted turn of metagaming before they respond properly).
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
First off, why is anyone still playing with these people?
Second, yeah, there is nothing stopping you from taking any and all monsters and ignoring completely the statblocks. At level 8, assuming a party size of 5, I would suggest an Adult Dragon with a full spread of spells and spell slots like an 8th level Sorcerer, at least 5 LR's and LA's that include cantrips/1st level spells.
But ultimately, most DM's don't have the time nor experience to blow up stat blocks. The problem is tossing these problem players. Because it sure does not sound like they will change their ways.
I appreciate the advice, but the problem we have right now is simply summarised:
Baldur's Gate 3.
These are new players, who are approaching D&D with the video game mindset because they started "d&d" with a video game. They have oftem misquoted rules because "that's how it works in BG3".
However, they are new, and I am patient, and I am willing to show them that they need to adapt somewhat to play D&D as a tabletop game - lessons like "You're not the hero, the party is", "It's what my character would do is not an excuse", and "There is no reason your character would know everything", "Readign every book in your backstory as an 800-year-old elf will not overcome this", and the like can be taught.
Why do we still play with them? We're playing at a welcoming drop-in club, where every week is a new oneshot by various DM's within the club, and we don't like the idea of turning away new players because they've gotten too into the game and memorised the monsters. I firmly believe that they are just going through the initial "I can do anything, so I will game the system" stage that some people go through (I myself have made powergamey characters, and only stopped using them because I favour character over power).
Simply put, I believe that with some guidance, they will grow out of it. And, with their creativity and commitment to roleplay, they will be fun players to play D&D with. So, I want to give them the lesson in-game that their metagaming actions are not the best approach. I will reiterate each time that it's a lesson, verbally, and not just "punish" them. So if they see a troll, shout about fire damage and so forth, and then find out fire doesn't work here, I will offer guidance around metagaming for them in a short lectural statement before continuing the game - in a "The moral of this is..." sort of way!
So please - don't try to discourage me from educating them, as I'm as stubborn as a golden retriever and patient enough to not suffer from it!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Kobolds. Everyone underestimates kobolds. Make them absolutely baller. Take gladiator stats or something and then add kobold’s Pact Tactics and Darkvision and set a pack of them loose on the party. 🤣😂🤣
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It is amazing what a Flying Scale Sorcerer Kobold can do, when played intelligently. It won't do much alone to an 8th level party, but when 50 Kobolds rain down 50 arrows on a party.....
Or how about 50 kobolds riding vultures doing fly-bys? Can you say Pact Tactics? Sure, I knew ya could.
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coming of the back of the previous posts. Tucker's kobalds. the kobalds are weak but they have protected their lair with anti-adventurer traps. fire acid, pit traps etc. every room is a new device to kill the players needing to be dealt with until they slow down and take the time to work things out.
Also though, I prefer not to let players immediately know what they are facing. use descriptions rather than names, partly this is because I like to run a bit of horror so the unknown is scary. as soon as the players know what the enemy is the fear is gone. as for wanting to know about CR? why if they are not the DM they do not need to know this. In most games some metagaming if going to happen. the trolls are a great example, and you want the players to learn so use obscure monsters that you don't see everyday. and if you do changes the statblock to have fire weakness or not I'd recommend being consistent that way if the players learn what something is weak to in game they get rewarded in the next encounter. If everything is changing to fool the players then there's no point paying attention, then it'll be lowest common denominator logic, force or psychic damage as less monsters are resistant to those etc
What if you just re-skin things? Describe the monster differently from in the book, and they’ll have no idea what they’re fighting.
My DM changes monsters all the time. Changing things is not a problem but it has nothing to do with why we do our best not to metagame; it is because we deal with metagaming at the player level. In game hints are never the solution to out of game issues. Why would you go to the trouble of putting together some sort of passive aggressive lesson session where nothing is as expected when players metagame—the point of which many, if not all, of the players will certainly fail to grasp—when you can just tell a person they are metagaming, explain how it is metagaming and help them understand why good game play eschews metagaming?
My friend uses dragon stats for his go-to reskin. He's given rats, humanoids, and even a giant goose breath weapons and multiattack.
I frequently just grab a stat block I like and describe the monster totally differently because the written description doesn't suit my universe. My players never know the names of the creatures they encounter unless it's obvious (like a ghost or owlbear). They had recurring encounters with quasits for an entire campaign and only knew them as "those little green guys". Helps keep immersion if it's truly a creature the characters would not have met before, and limits metagaming.
The last monster I changed to metagame around was a hydra; the PCs ended up not figuring it out and just bashing it down without any fire damage, which did wind up with someone getting mauled by an eight headed hydra.
I would speak to them about it, honestly. Tell them you'd like to run a game where things will happen that they cannot anticipate. A game where they need to learn what to do in-game rather than deciding what to do based on their knowledge as players.
No one "wins" when you just blindside them with gotchas. They'll just be mad and making them mad doesn't further your goal of persuading them to change their habits. Be upfront and sincere. Tell them that you think the game is richer when you stay deeper in your character and you want to show them what it's like. Let them buy into it.
Then during the game, call them out on it when they metagame, or just tease them with phrases like, "Oh, is that what you think will happen?" Punishing characters for player behavior is never as efficient or effective as just speaking to their face about the behavior you want to discourage.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Well, maybe. If you just make the monsters customized, and make it reasonably obvious that they're customized, people won't metagame for the simple reason that they can't (hm... something tells me that Lava Troll does not have its regeneration stopped by fire...).
Go for homebrew.
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You could use Pixies or a Wizard with Polymorph, either to turn the players into animals or something else into one. Like, put some animal seemingly guarding a place but with some easy way to trap it nearby. Make it so that animal is a very powerful monster that the wizard transformed into a more maneageable beast to trap it because it was too dangerous and that the trap is there by design. That way if the players go murderhobo they get a nasty surprise.
As for monsters that are easy to metagame against... Well, it is well known that Slimes are very slow and that moving a bit to keep your distance is the best way to kill them. You could try to use that to lure people into traps that are close but not that close to them. Plus, since they can squeeze through small spaces they can come from anywhere or they could trap the players with gelatinous cubes. There is also a precedent of grey slimes variants with psychic attacks so you could alter the statblock to give them special abilities to fight at range or shove people into traps. And let's not forget that the main differentiation feature between slimes is their color so if they fight them in a dark area they won't know what kind of slime they are until they are hit since darkvision should not differentiate color.
Alternatively, you could use monsters that are more dangerous than the DC suggests (spectres, shadows, intellect devourers, ghosts, banshees) though those are rather well known so they ought to be supplemented by the environtment. Like, in one campaign I had a hallway with rooms in which a trap closed both ends with a puzzle while releasing the trap equivalent of the stinking cloud spell and a few spectres that would phase through walls, attack the players, then phase out. Next room had a portal to a realm of darkness surrounded by torches and an invisible poltergeist threw the torches to different ends of the room which caused the portal to release an effect like the Darkness spell and 1d6 shadows each round modified to see through magical darkness. To stop them from spawning they had to surround the portal again with a circle of torches but to do that they had to realize that there was a poltergeist in the room that was throwing 1d4 torches away each turn. Then came a mummy im the next room that was actually made out of someone the cult the PC were fighting had kidnapped and replaced with a doppelganger, so they were supposed to talk to the mummy instead of fighting it to realize that.
Or you could focus on monsters with weird effects or mechanics like how ghosts can age people, sphinxes can do time travel, night hags tend to attack when players are asleep...
As far as reskinning monsters... Well, I once had a fairy dragon pilot a Walking Armor and attacking from inside them so you could hide a monster inside another (construct or undead) to hide what they are facing or have something like a Mind Flayer use disguuse self to look like someone else.
Zombies that when you cut them up, their limbs become crawling claws.
Now, if'n ya dinnae mind...
The kind of "anyone can join, no one is unwelcome" space that you talk about is where I cut my teeth so to speak, as a DM lol. It was a long time ago, and the only videogames we had were in arcades, but I was generally about the middle of the players in age, because I had adults and kids when I was but a teen in my games and I was not allowed to turn anyone away.
SO I am familiar with the metagaming and such, and honestly, if meta- and power- are your biggest issues, then you are getting off easy (rules lawyers were my bane and that was 1e era). I'm not going to suggest you don't teach them a lesson, nor am I going to say don't turn into a guest lecturer I can't. I do those things for money in real life, so it would be bad form).
What I am going to suggest is slightly different, however.
You noted that they are committed to role-playing. Use that. Give them a start that puts them up against a dozen low CR foes for *each person*. Something simple, humanoid, has straight 10 scores, 6 hp and an AC of 10 and does 1d6 damage on each attack. Faceless things, 4 feet tall, that gibber and gabber, jibber and jabber, mutter and whisper as they reach with wicked sharp talons and rend with sharp, spiky teeth.
The one shot, of course, is to find out where these things come from. They have no name, they have never been seen before. There are two things to learn about them:
1 - if a single person kills them, they will turn into a smoky dust that fades away. Then, the next round, they will reappear, completely new, and keep coming.
2 - if two or more people are involved in killing them, they stop reappearing. That is, they have to take damage from more than one PC in a given round to be killed.
This teaches them teamwork in combat. The longer they take to learn it -- without suggestion from the DM -- the longer the pure combat encounter takes (potentially not ending in the playtime allotted).
If they do defeat the critters, they will have absolutely munched through most of their murderhobo habits. There is a trail of bodies that leads to an old mine shaft. Not a dungeon. Never let them say dungeon, lol. This is an old mine shaft. A platform and winch system is available. the platform and ropes can support about 500 pounds, and the winch requires two people to operate it.
At the bottom of the shaft (600 feet down) there is another winch set up that can release a counterweight, so that the platform can go up. In order to get everyone down, they have to use the winch up top and the winch down below. TOp winch only sends things down, bottom winch only sends things up.
there is also a secret door hidden by bushes that leads to stairs that spiral upwards 600 feet because who the hell has time for winch stuff, but it is a secret, concealed door, and will need to be looked for.
THat last bit is important, because remember, it takes two people to operate a winch -- so two of them will be stuck doing nothing if they don't look.
But you go into detail on the winches. Because they are video game people -- you never look for secret, concealed doors in a video game when there is a solution right in front of you.
and 600 feet is 60d6. 210 points if you don't roll. Ain't no jumping down that shaft.
Deep in the mine, they branch out in left, right, and forward paths. All paths lead to a single cavern that stinks to high hell. Cold, lifeless, filled with rotting things, crammed with all manner of fungi, creepy crawlies everywhere. Among them are rot grubs.
Not a swarm. Just individual rot grubs.
each cavern has a tunnel (left side the tunnel is right, right side the tunnel is left, center the tunnel is forward). WHen passing through the room, have everyone roll a d20. on a 1 to 9, they get a rot grub, but don't tell them. They "feel a sharp pain that passes swiftly". They see a small spot like a needle poke somewhere on their person.
You can toss in undead or piercers or fungal monsters if'n ya want. I would also suggest slimes and molds.
the tunnel they choose has a rockfall trap -- really, the mine is unstable.
Assuming they make it to the last room, they find a sludge like pool that is 30' in diameter and go all out on the description of it, how it is foul and rancid and putrefying and blah blah. all the tunnels lead to it. Floating in the air 15' over it, crucified, is the mine's owner. Very dead. also very undead, but that will be for later.
Once everyone is in, the tunnels will collapse (the traps, remember), so now they will be trapped in a cavern with an unknown pool of something and a dead guy floating in the air.
Treasure is underneath the pool of sludge, which is just sludge, and only about two feet deep, but absolutely opaque, sticky, and so foul smelling that it will take a month to wash off.
Now, it will take someone standing on someone else's shoulders (who is in the pool) and *then* jumping up to reach the mine owner. Who is a notdead, really, cannot attack, but will try to talk them out of killing him.
He will play it up like he is cursed, and his curse is spreading, and that's the critters. But if they kill him, then the room floods two dozen critters per PC. IF they leave him alone, they only get one at a time per PC for as long as they are in there.
what they should be thinking about, however, is getting out of the room. Which he can tell them, but he will want them to free him first.
He does two attacks per round, and he requires being damaged by three PCs to take any damage at all, or by silvered weapons that are not magical. Magical weapons bounce off of him. Spells and magical attacks have no effect, dissipating harmlessly around him. He has an AC 10, and 24 HP.
He is affected by holy water, which does 2d12 damage to him. Healing spells will cause double the healing amount in damage. And the way out, that only he knows, is to use a trap door beneath the pool of sludge, which requires a key mixed in among his treasure, to open the complex lock (DC of 30).
The sludge, btw, will burn. It is just a thick, flammable sludge, but it *looks* scary as hell. Sadly, burning it will also suck out all the air in the cavern. Scooping it out will take 12 hours.
You can decide the treasure, but I suggest gems and raw ore with maybe some odds and ends that are not going to be damaged by being wet. All of it, of course, will stink for months.
The door leads to steps that go to the next mine level, where his altar to some demon or whatever is, and a long, straight passage out the side to a place that overlooks a village or whatever.
Now, this short little adventure teaches all the lessons you had in mind -- but doesn't require lectures. It is something that looks like a little sidequest in a video game, but isn't -- it is a way to teach Players that what they think they know is not everything, and that sometimes teamwork and thinking are required.
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i've been reading the new Book of Many Things and my recommendation is to give them a deck and let them go nuts. start in the Seelie Market where nothing costs gold and Pazrodine the ancient moonstone dragon removes thieves and unruly sort via Dream Breath or simply flying them away herself. this is the problem players' chance to do right and have fun.
...or it's a chance for metagamers to smash and grab a powerful deck of many things from the (functionally immortal nilbog) fortune teller. you may then escort them out or let them flee with their prize. especially if they're escorted out roughly, let them be approached by devil lady Hulgaz (also from the BoMT) who can offer them power and boons to defeat their enemies. these 'boons,' if you haven't read that far into the book, all include curses. they can take these curses or they can make another powerful enemy.
anyway, soon they're left alone with their cards. but it's not the whole deck. the book recommends that the fortune teller was using only Comet, Fates, Fool, Key, Knight, Rogue, Ruin, Sage, and Throne... which you'll notice is missing nasty things like Donjon, Talons, or Flames. Key and Knight might interest them. You might even trade in a Jester to replace Fool (since this is a oneshot anyway). but in particular, they might be immediately interested three other cards...
...just a bunch of sandbox fun with relatively low (or throw-away level) prep that isn't a bunch of combats they can cheese.
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To my mind there are a few levels of stat changes that can prevent a meta-mindset.
Enemy HP - This one somewhat disappoints me with many DMs, because I've known loads who simple stick with fixed HP for enemies. Don't go with the fixed HP...roll it up (or choose a number within the range). This can be a great first sign that, yes, no two goblins are the same.
Enemy Equipment - Throw a creature a shield, or modify AC from time to time. Don't worry about a Kobold getting an extra +1 or +2 to their AC. It won't make huge differences in the grand scale, but will again signify that this is something that DMs can and will change.
Enemy Resistances - Why, oh, why aren't Intellect Devourer either resistant or immune to Psychic damage? Seems like some low hanging fruit. Mixing up the resistances can be really powewrful though so only for DMs who know what they're doing.
Enemy Injuries - If a Dragon has lived for a long time surely it will have developed a few injuries, maybe even scars? What would be wrong with giving a [Tooltip Not Found] a weakness to cold for example due to a scar won in a battle long ago. This kind lays in the realm of resistances though..****y for those who have some experience under their belts.
Rather than recommend creatures I'd just recommend principles, all of which are sort of set out in DMG...though could be better written. All of these elements are well within the scope of the DMs role and it's part of what we do when creating encounters. These elements help players to understand that yes, you might have read the MM, but no you aren't always going to be able to predict the way things will go down.
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James Introcaso provided his father with the images of monsters in the MM, but nothing else, and asked his father to come up with a name and the abilities of the monster. How does this help? Because the monsters he developed look exactly the same as MM monsters, but are generally completely different in mechanics. That could really screw up a player who's memorized the MM.
Goblins and other swarmy types. Gang up bonus! For every goblin within 30ft of the player, give them +1 dmg and hit. Maybe advantage too. Also give them the ability to 10ft Reach from behind other characters (so technically Reach, but only across the space of another creature)
If you wanna be extra tricky. Make a character make an opposed dex or str check against the goblin's attack roll whenever they hit you will there are 2 or more within 5ft. Failure: restrained
I tried something like this once, but that wasn't because of metagaming, so I gave them a heads up. Nonetheless, they really felt like they have to clear them really quickly with AoE or something, or they will be in trouble
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