So the PC's found a key story document in the BBEG's lair, didn't get it translated, and then completely forgot about it. As a new DM, I'd love some confirmation or differing thoughts on whether it's ok to remind them, say in a session review before the night's game, that they found the document and have yet to read it. Is that kind of thing cool? I'm assuming so as it doesn't feel like railroading, rather just reminding them of what they already have access to.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated from this DM who's only recently taken off his training wheels. Thanks!
I'd say have an NPC in-game mention that several things of great interest are hidden in the BBEG's lair, including magic items, spell scrolls, and (emphasize this a little) documents.
I'd say have an NPC in-game mention that several things of great interest are hidden in the BBEG's lair, including magic items, spell scrolls, and (emphasize this a little) documents.
I second this. I've had my PCs forget about very important plot points, and have used NPCs to gently remind them.
I think it is reasonable to remind your players of certain things. Their characters are living the story where as they are just playing it so they will likely forget things that their characters wouldn't. A mathematician will remember certain formulas because that is what they do everyday. Their brain is used to doing things like that. Someone playing a mathematician may not even be able to remember the formula for a few minutes.
I play every week and sometimes the sessions are set the day after the last one. Due to the time difference there is a chance your players forget things that their characters would still have relatively fresh in their mind.
Asking questions can be a great way of doing this. Maybe have them come across an NPC who has something to do with what they need to remember. My players had a magic item. They had no idea what it did. They went to a magic shop to buy items and the shop keeper asked if they had anything they wanted him to evaluate. Doing it through an NPC in a reasonable way I think is the best way of jogging peoples memories, using the world and the story rather than out right telling them.
I am not perfect however and sometimes I will mention things out of character just to keep the story moving. At the end of the day it is about the big picture. Your players will usually forget the small mistakes. A recap can be good as well but it is up to you.
Personally, for something like this type of situation, I usually try to make the reminder more of an "in game" approach versus just a flat "out of character" reminder. Just as a couple of potential examples:
Were there any NPCs around at the time when the characters from the document in question? If so, then maybe they could question the contents of the document (i.e., "So what did that document say when you got it translated? Oh, you never got around it?").
How important is the document to other people? Perhaps, a rogue tries to steal the document from the characters, which both reminds them about and emphasizes the potential importance.
However, if doing something like the above example is too difficult or feels forced, then you can always just ask the players if they intend on following up on the document. No, it's not railroading per se, but it loses a little of the immersive mystique when the DM has to directly remind the players (which is why I usually try to provide an in game reminder first).
And, as a similar bit of advice, I would always recommend that you try to have at least 2+ clues/sources/etc. for any key story aspect. What is obvious to a DM isn't always obvious to the group of players, so having some backup material helps drive a point home if they missed an earlier point.
If you want to use the document as a start for a plot for a session, it is completely OK to "railroad" your players between sessions and say: "one of you recalled that document you found and had it translated...".
But I agree with the first response that I would have tried to remind the players in-game first. By having an NPC hinting towards an ancient tome or something. It is more satisfying for players to "find" the answers themselves than just have it handed over to them. But, if you need the players to have the information to proceed in the story, I would rather give it to them than having a session that leaves the players in "limbo" because the players (not the characters) have forgotten that they found a document some where.
After all, it's your (and your friends) game. Do whatever you think will benefit the game the most :-)
When they are long resting, mention it falling out of someone's pack. Like, "As you're organizing your things for the day, you notice a old parchment in the bottom of your pack and remember it's the one you found in BBEG's lair."
Depending on the situation, it may be more or less contrived than the other options. Just throwing it out there. If you want it to be even more secretive. Write it as a note and hand it to the player who has the document. Passing notes is always fun.
I will sometimes remind them of stuff... but I try not to. It's up to them.
The #1 reason I sometimes remind is, we only play every other week, so it is more likely they will forget something between sessions than if we played weekly.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
DM's have to recognize that most players are not as invested in a story as the DM is. I have found that out the hard way, where key plot developments which I thought obvious were completely missed by the players, or not followed up on.
As others have said, have an NPC try to steer them in the right direction, or attempt to put the key item/ plot point in the players' path again. Or if that still fails, and you HAVE to, yeah, remind them.
I generally do a recap at the beginning of each session that goes over what the party did last time and what items and things they picked up, so they have a refresher.
My players are pretty good at taking notes, but not perfect, and if a plot item they found 8 weeks ago (in real time) is important to the current session (which might be taking place a day or so -after- their characters only first found it), I have no problem reminding them out of character, ‘hey, you guys probably forgot this, but your characters would certainly remember.’
I could just use the voice of an NPC to ‘remind’ them, but I feel like thats usually just forced, and disbelief is sometimes easier to suspend if I just cut to the chase.
This is all incredibly helpful, sincere thanks to all! I'll probably go with a combo. I do a recap at the beginning of the session that's in character as a chronicler of the pc's history. I'll drop a small mention of it in there and then definitely find a way for an NPC to notice the item and inquire about it or something along those lines.
Really appreciate the confirmation, it really clarified both the specific issue as well as an important overall question I had about dm-ing in general.
I usually do a short recap at the beginning of the session. Since the sessions are two weeks apart (sometimes a month) people forget stuff. Heck even I forget stuff.
I try to hit on the main points and if I think they need it will drop a reminder - "And at the end of they day they party was discussing what to do with the wyvern eggs.."
Sometimes I just don't tell them because I want them to figure it out on their own. The particular plot point might be temporarily lost, but weeks, months, years down the road you can pull it out for something else entirely.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It can help to mix in your plot stuff with other things more immediately relevant to the characters. Maybe the BBEG's plans are scrawled in the margins of that spell scroll the wizard is desperate to copy into her spellbook. Maybe a vital document is stored in an ornamental case worth lots of gold, and when the party goes to sell it the merchant finds it and shoves it into the spotlight. When you beat a BBEG and offer sparkly loot in one hand and a dry stack of documents in the other, it's no wonder many players get distracted.
The group I am taking on a journey to save a realm has an extra party member with them, partly to help fill holes and partly to keep them on track. He has also been helpful in moving the story forward by offering information that urges the party to further investigate certain spots. In my case, I am using the NPC to prevent their "boomerang" routine they started on. They'd find one thing, then run back to "base" to report. Now, in the field, the NPC is sought out for opinion, which allows him to tell them they have found evidence of something, but maybe if they keep pushing on, they can find something more.
I find the need to spoon feed (or BE spoon fed as a player) varies a lot. If this item is important, and was obtained near the end of the last session, I would simply include it in the recap to kick off. "So you went to the cave, slaughtered the Hobgoblin Warlord, took his papers and his fancy sword." A 2 second recap of last time, like on serial TV shows, lol.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Do you write and publish a session journal? I try and get mine done within a few days of every session. I keep 2 copies, my DM one full of juicy secrets and stuff that happened off screen, I then sanitize this for the players. It is usually a one page Google doc which gives a flavour filled overview of the session. At the end of it I list everything the players found that session, gold, items etc. I also list who killed what and how in a summary. My players read it, and actually 2 of their wives and some of their children read it as well to find out what happened. But the key thing it does is remind players, you have this thing.
Session journals do help. My players do them. They take turns, and write them in character. It's been fun for them to write (and read), and the journals have a lot of info.
On the other hand, nobody's going to read all that in the middle of a session so... sometimes they forget things.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In regards to the recapping, I actually make my players do the recap from the previous session. I find it to be extremely informative and useful to find out the kinds of things that they retain, and the types of things they forget (I tend to use this information to deduce the type of content they actually enjoy, and I focus more on that for next time). In most cases there'll always be something they've forgotten, but I'll only remind them myself if a) I think their characters would certainly remember it, and b) it's actually important. This way when I do need to remind my players, it's a pretty big flag for them that it's not something they should forget again.
Another thing I do here is ignore metagaming. If a player remembers something another player doesn’t, even if the character wouldn’t know it, I am happy for that player to prompt the other player. I know some DMs and players consider this to be metagaming but I think it works well
In a face-to-face game, I give important documents as handouts. That way there is a physical reminder of the plot hook.
If the game is stalling, I will unsubtly remind them, "OK, maybe you should go through the player folder and see if there are any items you've forgotten about."
In an online game, you can do a similar thing with some sort of document repository. Make the handouts (they don't have to be flash - a simple drawing program can do a scroll-like outline and some text in a cool font) and upload them to the site.
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So the PC's found a key story document in the BBEG's lair, didn't get it translated, and then completely forgot about it. As a new DM, I'd love some confirmation or differing thoughts on whether it's ok to remind them, say in a session review before the night's game, that they found the document and have yet to read it. Is that kind of thing cool? I'm assuming so as it doesn't feel like railroading, rather just reminding them of what they already have access to.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated from this DM who's only recently taken off his training wheels. Thanks!
I'd say have an NPC in-game mention that several things of great interest are hidden in the BBEG's lair, including magic items, spell scrolls, and (emphasize this a little) documents.
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I second this. I've had my PCs forget about very important plot points, and have used NPCs to gently remind them.
I think it is reasonable to remind your players of certain things. Their characters are living the story where as they are just playing it so they will likely forget things that their characters wouldn't. A mathematician will remember certain formulas because that is what they do everyday. Their brain is used to doing things like that. Someone playing a mathematician may not even be able to remember the formula for a few minutes.
I play every week and sometimes the sessions are set the day after the last one. Due to the time difference there is a chance your players forget things that their characters would still have relatively fresh in their mind.
Asking questions can be a great way of doing this. Maybe have them come across an NPC who has something to do with what they need to remember. My players had a magic item. They had no idea what it did. They went to a magic shop to buy items and the shop keeper asked if they had anything they wanted him to evaluate. Doing it through an NPC in a reasonable way I think is the best way of jogging peoples memories, using the world and the story rather than out right telling them.
I am not perfect however and sometimes I will mention things out of character just to keep the story moving. At the end of the day it is about the big picture. Your players will usually forget the small mistakes. A recap can be good as well but it is up to you.
I hope this helps.
Personally, for something like this type of situation, I usually try to make the reminder more of an "in game" approach versus just a flat "out of character" reminder. Just as a couple of potential examples:
However, if doing something like the above example is too difficult or feels forced, then you can always just ask the players if they intend on following up on the document. No, it's not railroading per se, but it loses a little of the immersive mystique when the DM has to directly remind the players (which is why I usually try to provide an in game reminder first).
And, as a similar bit of advice, I would always recommend that you try to have at least 2+ clues/sources/etc. for any key story aspect. What is obvious to a DM isn't always obvious to the group of players, so having some backup material helps drive a point home if they missed an earlier point.
If you want to use the document as a start for a plot for a session, it is completely OK to "railroad" your players between sessions and say: "one of you recalled that document you found and had it translated...".
But I agree with the first response that I would have tried to remind the players in-game first. By having an NPC hinting towards an ancient tome or something. It is more satisfying for players to "find" the answers themselves than just have it handed over to them. But, if you need the players to have the information to proceed in the story, I would rather give it to them than having a session that leaves the players in "limbo" because the players (not the characters) have forgotten that they found a document some where.
After all, it's your (and your friends) game. Do whatever you think will benefit the game the most :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
Some good ideas above, I'll ad another.
When they are long resting, mention it falling out of someone's pack. Like, "As you're organizing your things for the day, you notice a old parchment in the bottom of your pack and remember it's the one you found in BBEG's lair."
Depending on the situation, it may be more or less contrived than the other options. Just throwing it out there. If you want it to be even more secretive. Write it as a note and hand it to the player who has the document. Passing notes is always fun.
I will sometimes remind them of stuff... but I try not to. It's up to them.
The #1 reason I sometimes remind is, we only play every other week, so it is more likely they will forget something between sessions than if we played weekly.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
DM's have to recognize that most players are not as invested in a story as the DM is. I have found that out the hard way, where key plot developments which I thought obvious were completely missed by the players, or not followed up on.
As others have said, have an NPC try to steer them in the right direction, or attempt to put the key item/ plot point in the players' path again. Or if that still fails, and you HAVE to, yeah, remind them.
I generally do a recap at the beginning of each session that goes over what the party did last time and what items and things they picked up, so they have a refresher.
The dice giveth and the dice taketh away.
My players are pretty good at taking notes, but not perfect, and if a plot item they found 8 weeks ago (in real time) is important to the current session (which might be taking place a day or so -after- their characters only first found it), I have no problem reminding them out of character, ‘hey, you guys probably forgot this, but your characters would certainly remember.’
I could just use the voice of an NPC to ‘remind’ them, but I feel like thats usually just forced, and disbelief is sometimes easier to suspend if I just cut to the chase.
This is all incredibly helpful, sincere thanks to all! I'll probably go with a combo. I do a recap at the beginning of the session that's in character as a chronicler of the pc's history. I'll drop a small mention of it in there and then definitely find a way for an NPC to notice the item and inquire about it or something along those lines.
Really appreciate the confirmation, it really clarified both the specific issue as well as an important overall question I had about dm-ing in general.
I usually do a short recap at the beginning of the session. Since the sessions are two weeks apart (sometimes a month) people forget stuff. Heck even I forget stuff.
I try to hit on the main points and if I think they need it will drop a reminder - "And at the end of they day they party was discussing what to do with the wyvern eggs.."
Sometimes I just don't tell them because I want them to figure it out on their own. The particular plot point might be temporarily lost, but weeks, months, years down the road you can pull it out for something else entirely.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It can help to mix in your plot stuff with other things more immediately relevant to the characters. Maybe the BBEG's plans are scrawled in the margins of that spell scroll the wizard is desperate to copy into her spellbook. Maybe a vital document is stored in an ornamental case worth lots of gold, and when the party goes to sell it the merchant finds it and shoves it into the spotlight. When you beat a BBEG and offer sparkly loot in one hand and a dry stack of documents in the other, it's no wonder many players get distracted.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The group I am taking on a journey to save a realm has an extra party member with them, partly to help fill holes and partly to keep them on track. He has also been helpful in moving the story forward by offering information that urges the party to further investigate certain spots. In my case, I am using the NPC to prevent their "boomerang" routine they started on. They'd find one thing, then run back to "base" to report. Now, in the field, the NPC is sought out for opinion, which allows him to tell them they have found evidence of something, but maybe if they keep pushing on, they can find something more.
I find the need to spoon feed (or BE spoon fed as a player) varies a lot. If this item is important, and was obtained near the end of the last session, I would simply include it in the recap to kick off. "So you went to the cave, slaughtered the Hobgoblin Warlord, took his papers and his fancy sword." A 2 second recap of last time, like on serial TV shows, lol.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Do you write and publish a session journal? I try and get mine done within a few days of every session. I keep 2 copies, my DM one full of juicy secrets and stuff that happened off screen, I then sanitize this for the players. It is usually a one page Google doc which gives a flavour filled overview of the session. At the end of it I list everything the players found that session, gold, items etc. I also list who killed what and how in a summary. My players read it, and actually 2 of their wives and some of their children read it as well to find out what happened. But the key thing it does is remind players, you have this thing.
Session journals do help. My players do them. They take turns, and write them in character. It's been fun for them to write (and read), and the journals have a lot of info.
On the other hand, nobody's going to read all that in the middle of a session so... sometimes they forget things.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In regards to the recapping, I actually make my players do the recap from the previous session. I find it to be extremely informative and useful to find out the kinds of things that they retain, and the types of things they forget (I tend to use this information to deduce the type of content they actually enjoy, and I focus more on that for next time). In most cases there'll always be something they've forgotten, but I'll only remind them myself if a) I think their characters would certainly remember it, and b) it's actually important. This way when I do need to remind my players, it's a pretty big flag for them that it's not something they should forget again.
Another thing I do here is ignore metagaming. If a player remembers something another player doesn’t, even if the character wouldn’t know it, I am happy for that player to prompt the other player. I know some DMs and players consider this to be metagaming but I think it works well
In a face-to-face game, I give important documents as handouts. That way there is a physical reminder of the plot hook.
If the game is stalling, I will unsubtly remind them, "OK, maybe you should go through the player folder and see if there are any items you've forgotten about."
In an online game, you can do a similar thing with some sort of document repository. Make the handouts (they don't have to be flash - a simple drawing program can do a scroll-like outline and some text in a cool font) and upload them to the site.