I've got a party of 4 level 10 players in a 5e campaign. A fighter, a barbarian, a monk, and a warlock. The fighter and the barbarian have tons of HP and lots of damage resistance (especially for the barbarian with his rage ability). I'd like to make combat more challenging for them specifically. They are both weak on INT and WIS saving throws, so can anyone suggest some good spells to use against them? I'd like to use spells like Hold Person or Wall of Force sparingly since it basically just takes them out of the fight.
Also, is there a table someplace that shows spells grouped by saving throws?
The spells section here on dndbeyond will show you all the spells and you can filter it by saves, levels, etc.. A few good ones I found with a quick search: charm person, fear, enemies abound, confusion, hideous laughter, hold person, ottos irresistible dance, polymorph, and command. Mind spike and toll of the dead are good damage cantrips as well.
I've got a party of 4 level 10 players in a 5e campaign. A fighter, a barbarian, a monk, and a warlock. The fighter and the barbarian have tons of HP and lots of damage resistance (especially for the barbarian with his rage ability). I'd like to make combat more challenging for them specifically. They are both weak on INT and WIS saving throws, so can anyone suggest some good spells to use against them? I'd like to use spells like Hold Person or Wall of Force sparingly since it basically just takes them out of the fight.
Unfortunately... most of the good spells to use on them are the spells that take them out of the fight. If you want stuff that hurts or hinders but doesn't actually remove them from the fight, there's illusory dragon, maddening darkness, slow, spirit guardians, and synaptic static. If you're willing to tolerate bad spells (because you're the DM so you can give the NPCs dumb spells), there's also bestow curse and phantasmal killer.
Take a look at Hypnotic Pattern , it's a an area of effect spell with Wisdom save that leaves you charmed, incapacitated and speed of 0, without any repeatable saving throw, the condition last until the caster's concentration is broken or the affected creature takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor.
I find that spells/effects that impose the frightened, restrained, or charmed conditions tend to be pretty nasty for martials. Fear, Enemies Abound, Web, Entangle, Phantasmal Killer, all keep PCs in the fight, but seriously limit their efficacy, as does Blindness/Deafness. Crown of Madness and Commandare fun because you can turn the PCs against their allies. Confusion makes every turn a question mark until they make the save.
Outside of spells, nothing ticks off a martial character as much as when they can't see their target or can't actually reach it. Monsters or mages who can cast Greater Invisibility or turn invisible (wil-o'-wisps, doppelgangers), can pass through reality to hide (ghosts, Blink) or utilize illusions (displacer beasts, Mirror Image) can pose a nice challenge, not to mention creatures or mages with flight speeds or the Fly spell.
Most of the examples in this thread are demonstrating that the best spells are the spells that take them out of the fight. Which is true but rapidly turns extremely unfun.
Viscious Mockery is a cantrip. Great spell to give to a large number of minions. 8 minions would give two per player, which should make most of their attack rolls at disadvantage. Be sure to have the extra minions hold their attack until the target makes an attack, so they can give disadvantage to the next attack as well.
Sometimes they will make their save, and not have disadvantage, but that is okay because it rewards good saving throws. This should significantly slow down their damage output initially. Although one well placed fireball could wipe out the minions.
On the other hand if more minions are created or added to the fight each round, that cuts back on the value of a first round fireball.
As a DM, you are not constrained by the existing spell list. You can make spells and features that PCs do not have access to. Synaptic static is a good model for a psychic fireball.
Have enemies with psychic blades that work like the Soulknife rogue, or weapons that call for a WIS save on a hit that when failed gives you the "you only get to do one thing on your turn" condition from Tasha's Mind Whip. Just make stuff up! Its what makes D&D fun!
You can also just let them be good at what they do, but throw more enemies at them. Taking half damage from twice as many enemies is basically taking full damage. And they get to mow down swaths of enemies - it's a win-win.
Bane and dissonant whispers are pretty tough on martials with low wisdom. Phantasmal Force can mess them up too. But generally anything that requires a wisdom or intelligence save, and often a charisma save will put melee builds in a tough space. While most combats don't last so long, spike growth followed by dissonant whispers would be real tough on most martials, or anyone else that doesn't make their wisdom save. But that's two spell slots and only impacts one PC. Of course, multiple castings of dissonant whispers just hits more and more enemies.
I've got a party of 4 level 10 players in a 5e campaign. A fighter, a barbarian, a monk, and a warlock. The fighter and the barbarian have tons of HP and lots of damage resistance (especially for the barbarian with his rage ability). I'd like to make combat more challenging for them specifically. They are both weak on INT and WIS saving throws, so can anyone suggest some good spells to use against them? I'd like to use spells like Hold Person or Wall of Force sparingly since it basically just takes them out of the fight.
Also, is there a table someplace that shows spells grouped by saving throws?
The spells section here on dndbeyond will show you all the spells and you can filter it by saves, levels, etc.. A few good ones I found with a quick search: charm person, fear, enemies abound, confusion, hideous laughter, hold person, ottos irresistible dance, polymorph, and command. Mind spike and toll of the dead are good damage cantrips as well.
Unfortunately... most of the good spells to use on them are the spells that take them out of the fight. If you want stuff that hurts or hinders but doesn't actually remove them from the fight, there's illusory dragon, maddening darkness, slow, spirit guardians, and synaptic static. If you're willing to tolerate bad spells (because you're the DM so you can give the NPCs dumb spells), there's also bestow curse and phantasmal killer.
Slow, it’s brutal against martial PCs.
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Take a look at Hypnotic Pattern , it's a an area of effect spell with Wisdom save that leaves you charmed, incapacitated and speed of 0, without any repeatable saving throw, the condition last until the caster's concentration is broken or the affected creature takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor.
No you guys can't do this please have mercy my books are no match for magic
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I find that spells/effects that impose the frightened, restrained, or charmed conditions tend to be pretty nasty for martials. Fear, Enemies Abound, Web, Entangle, Phantasmal Killer, all keep PCs in the fight, but seriously limit their efficacy, as does Blindness/Deafness. Crown of Madness and Commandare fun because you can turn the PCs against their allies. Confusion makes every turn a question mark until they make the save.
Outside of spells, nothing ticks off a martial character as much as when they can't see their target or can't actually reach it. Monsters or mages who can cast Greater Invisibility or turn invisible (wil-o'-wisps, doppelgangers), can pass through reality to hide (ghosts, Blink) or utilize illusions (displacer beasts, Mirror Image) can pose a nice challenge, not to mention creatures or mages with flight speeds or the Fly spell.
Dominate person. Turn them against their allies.
Most of the examples in this thread are demonstrating that the best spells are the spells that take them out of the fight. Which is true but rapidly turns extremely unfun.
Viscious Mockery is a cantrip. Great spell to give to a large number of minions. 8 minions would give two per player, which should make most of their attack rolls at disadvantage. Be sure to have the extra minions hold their attack until the target makes an attack, so they can give disadvantage to the next attack as well.
Sometimes they will make their save, and not have disadvantage, but that is okay because it rewards good saving throws. This should significantly slow down their damage output initially. Although one well placed fireball could wipe out the minions.
On the other hand if more minions are created or added to the fight each round, that cuts back on the value of a first round fireball.
Enemies Abound cast from ambush, have the martials bash each other for a bit...
As a DM, you are not constrained by the existing spell list. You can make spells and features that PCs do not have access to. Synaptic static is a good model for a psychic fireball.
Have enemies with psychic blades that work like the Soulknife rogue, or weapons that call for a WIS save on a hit that when failed gives you the "you only get to do one thing on your turn" condition from Tasha's Mind Whip. Just make stuff up! Its what makes D&D fun!
You can also just let them be good at what they do, but throw more enemies at them. Taking half damage from twice as many enemies is basically taking full damage. And they get to mow down swaths of enemies - it's a win-win.
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Bane and dissonant whispers are pretty tough on martials with low wisdom. Phantasmal Force can mess them up too. But generally anything that requires a wisdom or intelligence save, and often a charisma save will put melee builds in a tough space. While most combats don't last so long, spike growth followed by dissonant whispers would be real tough on most martials, or anyone else that doesn't make their wisdom save. But that's two spell slots and only impacts one PC. Of course, multiple castings of dissonant whispers just hits more and more enemies.
You people are monsters
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I cast Resilient Sphere on the barbarian in the group in one of my last sessions. They were on a hill as well, it was hilarious!
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