Hi, I'm a new DM who's trying to encourage few friends to play D&D. None of us has played D&D before, I played good few computer RPGs and read tonnes of fantasy/sci-fi books.
I have a disjoint in expectations that I'm not so sure whether should be corrected on the player side or mine.
Essentially, one of my players want's to play character that is everything in one - beeing able to disregard any rules and in the same time - being considered good and righteous. She wants to be an elf that is extremely strong (physical strength) and skilled in arcane arts however she did not feel like her character ever had to excesivelly study to achieve that level of knowledge. She wants to "fly around and burn everything" but in the same time she wants to be filantropist that saves everyone from opression. Also, she wants to have (as an elf) blue hair (not dyed, naturally blue) and purple eyes. She was sent (forced) on the quest by her father but also, in the same time she describes herself as totally independent rulebreaker.
With all this said, she insists that she does want to play and she's not trying to bomb the game.
I have difficulty to see any consistency in this character, I wouldnt know what to expect from it, how to drive it. What she described sounds to me like some sort of chaotic evil rather than an elf.
Should I allow this character in my game? Suggest to change to some demonic "chaotic evil" creation?
Sounds like she wants to play a more fey elf, and chaotic good - just not regarding what humans as particularly 'good' themselves. Perhaps she can be an Eladrin (they were a playable race in 4e) sent from the feywild, rather than the material plane. She will look very weird and unusual to others, and you'll need to figure out how other elfs view a cousin from the feywild.
As for alignment, it sounds like she's chaotic good, but just won't have the same perspective on 'good' as races from the material plane.
For class, maybe sorcerer?
The other option is to convince her to give a read through the various class options and see if something grabs her imagination.
Part of the that could just be player expectation. Some people want a gritty world where their character slowly rises above the “Everyman”, some people want silly RP with lots of jokes and tropes, and some people want to be superheroes that just bulldoze anything in front of them.
If you haven’t started yet, this could be the ideal time to discuss your hopes for the setting, as well as the expectations of your other players to make sure you’re all on the same page, or can at least compromise to a point where this thing you’re all creating together will be fun for everyone.
You've just given me some interesting idea... rised by the elven parent (she also insisted on being an orphan) but with difficulties to fit in and to meet other's expectations. Split between rules of elven society and some unexplained and not accepted (chaotic) desires. At some stage discovers that her real parents were from feywild and she is in matter of fact of celestial eladrin origin... well. I'll see if Ithis is not too much for me to handle. Can you mix and match 5e and 4e editions freely like this?
If you haven’t started yet, this could be the ideal time to discuss your hopes for the setting, as well as the expectations of your other players to make sure you’re all on the same page, or can at least compromise to a point where this thing you’re all creating together will be fun for everyone.
This.
Now addressing specific character points, I'd suggest using either pointbuy or the standard array for stats so the player has to choose between mental and physical stats.
Definitely sounds like chaotic good char to me, make sure the player understands there will be consequences when their good doesn't match local law. Philanthropy/burn it to the ground can work fine together (give to the villagers, burn the tyrants fortress to the ground)
Someone mentioned Eldarin subrace matching personality, I second that. Can either play an elf and flavor backstory as fey adjacent or use subrace from tome of foes. Given that I'd have no problem having very distinct look (positive and negative consequences follow a visually distinct character so easily)
To suggest class/subclass I'd need a better idea of if they want more physical or magic. Sorcerer and warlock fit the low effort to get magic, warlock and bard would have good magic and physical fighting depending on subclass. I'd probably lean away from warlock if they want heavy casting because low spell slots might get frustrating for the player.
Part of the that could just be player expectation. Some people want a gritty world where their character slowly rises above the “Everyman”, some people want silly RP with lots of jokes and tropes, and some people want to be superheroes that just bulldoze anything in front of them.
If you haven’t started yet, this could be the ideal time to discuss your hopes for the setting, as well as the expectations of your other players to make sure you’re all on the same page, or can at least compromise to a point where this thing you’re all creating together will be fun for everyone.
Yes, we're still talking. The thing is that I'm putting a lot of work in this and would like to have a little bit of fun from the game too. At some stage it sounded like she wanted to play different game altogether. I'll see how it goes. Cheers.
Blue hair and purple eyes: Why not? You just have to decide wether this is a normal trait for elves in your world, or if it is something very strange. Even if you're using an "official" setting, this is a very minor "rewrite" of the setting.
Alignment: She certainly sounds chaotic, but the only thing that sounds evil, is that she "wants to fly around and burn everything". If she wants to burn down cities, torch innocent children, burn maidens at the stake - yes, she's evil. If she wants to be a cleansing fire that burns away the evil from the land, I would say she sounds like a chaotic good character.
I think you might should do some expectation management with your player. It sounds to me that she has imagined the character as it should be at the end of your campaign, not the beginning. You should talk to her about that she starts at level 1, that her character is at the start of her journey, not the end. That she don't want her character to have studied - fine for me, but she should have an explanation for where her powers come from. Rule wise, both sorceror, warlock or arcane fighter could work fine. But you should take a look at the level advancement, so she understands what she knows at the beginning, and what she'll learn as the adventure unfolds.
It sounds a little to me that she has imagined the character as a character that will be cool in a fantasy novel. That's ok, but it sounds a little like she might have forgotten to reality check that with the rule system. You should work with her to make room for development in her character. Who she is at the start of the story, and what she might develop into.
It might sound a little bit scary, but to me it sounds like you have a quite creative player with a lot of ideas, why not let her "help" you flesh out and create that this is the elves in your campaign. The thing you should be concerned about is if this intrudes on the other PC's. That will be a problem, that you have to to some adjustments to the world doesn't need to be. Remember roleplaying is a collective creation. It's not you who's telling a story to the players, you create the story and the world together :-)
Can you mix and match 5e and 4e editions freely like this?
I'd just keep her as an elf in terms of game mechanics and abilities, but she's actually Eladrin. Or you could buy Mordenkinen's Tome of Foes that has them as a player race, or use the Unearth Arcana playtest version of them (I'm not sure how much they changed after playtest). https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Eladrin-Gith.pdf
Part of the that could just be player expectation. Some people want a gritty world where their character slowly rises above the “Everyman”, some people want silly RP with lots of jokes and tropes, and some people want to be superheroes that just bulldoze anything in front of them.
If you haven’t started yet, this could be the ideal time to discuss your hopes for the setting, as well as the expectations of your other players to make sure you’re all on the same page, or can at least compromise to a point where this thing you’re all creating together will be fun for everyone.
Yes, we're still talking. The thing is that I'm putting a lot of work in this and would like to have a little bit of fun from the game too. At some stage it sounded like she wanted to play different game altogether. I'll see how it goes. Cheers.
Yeah, I'm thinking I may have to leave my current group (which I started!) because I never addressed this with my players. I was expecting a fairly gritty, classic LotR style fantasy while most of them are creating what's essentially a meme-filled over-the-top anime. Let me be honest, you're not a jerk if you tell her she probably wouldn't enjoy your game and she might want to play somewhere else...it'll save you both a lot of conflict in the long run.
It can take a few (games, campaigns, years) depending on the person to understand what D&D is and what you can and cannot do.
Based on what you have given, I think most of that is possible, but definitely not all at level 1.
Any of the cosmetic only stuff (blue hair and purple eyes) is usually fine at my tables, just have a reason why (doesn't have to be a great reason, just spend a moment to think rather than OOoo, Shiny). In this case, if she is an elf / half elf, perhaps their connection to the Feywild just manifested a bit stronger in her, or she had some incident in her youth that changed her.
Lets break it down into some basic mechanics:
Physically strong
Studyless Spellcasting
Flying
Burn everything (well, hopefully just the evildoers)
Philanthropist (has strong convictions about stuff)
The combination that first comes to mind is a Half-Elf Paladin. Paladin usually make melee attacks with Strength, can smite the non-believers, and their spellcasting is granted by their faith (aka they don't have to work for it). Unlike previous editions, a paladin can be of any alignment and not just Lawful Good. As for flying, don't expect that until level 5 at the earliest (fly spell, but paladins don't get it). A half elf gets a charisma bonus and then one of the floating +1's should be in strength.
I think there is also a conversation to be had about player expectations, in that they shouldn't just go around trying to murder everything in sight.
As for blue hair and purple eyes, that's a tiny cosmetic. And who knows, maybe it was a sign from the gods she was destined to do great things.
Race? An eladrin (detailed in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) or a High Elf.
As for class, sounds like an Eldritch Knight. It's a fighter subclass that dabbles into wizardry, while still being strong in heavy armor. Eldritch Knights are way less magical then wizards, but eventually, at a high level, they can cast Fly, cast Fireball, Burning Hands (burning hands right of the bat), so when this elf gets powerful enough, then CAN fly around and burn things.
You guys are awesome. As a result of your comments, my attitude changed from "this is not going to work" to "this makes sense and actually it is going to be fun". She changed form "...but you said I can do anything" to "fair enough, I can live with that". BTW - she loves Eladrin and actually admitted that she does not necessarily want to "burn everything" but "to be able to" which to me is a crucial difference. I never expected that prepping for dnd can be such fun as well, actually I now have to tame myself to not to divert too much from scenario that I already had in my head.
The most important thing here is it sounds like she's willing to work with you to create something cool and memorable. That's really all you need.... is to work with each other.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Awesome. Glad she sounds excited to learn too. Especially for new players, and can be a little tricky to figure out what concepts fit within the rules. Yes, you can do everything, but not necessarily all at once, and definitely not at first / early levels.
The other thing new players need to learn, often just over time, is that they don't actually want a character who can do everything. In the long run, it's much more fun to play a flawed, limited character and have to overcome those limitations, than it is to play someone who can just snap fingers and solve every problem or challenge effortlessly. The latter may be a ball to play for one session, but it has no staying power to entertain most of us.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah, I'm thinking I may have to leave my current group (which I started!) because I never addressed this with my players. I was expecting a fairly gritty, classic LotR style fantasy while most of them are creating what's essentially a meme-filled over-the-top anime. Let me be honest, you're not a jerk if you tell her she probably wouldn't enjoy your game and she might want to play somewhere else...it'll save you both a lot of conflict in the long run.
That exact reason is why “Session 0” is so danged important. Your group could have discussed expectations beforehand and that would have allowed you all an opportunity to sort out the gritty/funny dynamic ahead of time.
It might also be nice to explain that, while she might not be able to do all those things *right away,* that doesn't mean she can't eventually fulfill her original character idea in some form later on. Let her know that she can still work and build towards that flying elf princess that burninates evildoers over time. Explain how level progression typically works, how classes and levels are balanced, how multiclassing works if that's the route she wants to go, etc..
Basically, if you feel like you have to tell her no about stuff, explain why (or better, why not *yet*), but more importantly you should keep an open mind about the stuff she's asking and try your best to find a way to include it, and give her a mental picture of what those game mechanics might look like.
That'll go a long way in mitigating the disappointment of "I thought you said I can be anything..."
Yes, the idea of a character growing into its final power level is one of the most appealing things about RPGs. It's why I always prefer to start at level 1 and not 3 or 5 or something. Lower level start = more growing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You guys are awesome. As a result of your comments, my attitude changed from "this is not going to work" to "this makes sense and actually it is going to be fun". She changed form "...but you said I can do anything" to "fair enough, I can live with that". BTW - she loves Eladrin and actually admitted that she does not necessarily want to "burn everything" but "to be able to" which to me is a crucial difference. I never expected that prepping for dnd can be such fun as well, actually I now have to tame myself to not to divert too much from scenario that I already had in my head.
Cool! I think she might end up being one of the players/characters you will love in the end. She sounds creative and out of the box. That's cool, and she might add a lot of flavour and world building to your campaign if you give her room.
I think all of us DM's have a tendency to think like you did: "OMG, this is not what I thought, this is not what I imagined". I try to tell my self as often as possible that my initial response should not be "no" (which is often the first thought), but rather think "why not"? If I can't come up with a good reason for "why not", I'll allow it. However, there are of course instances where there is a legitime answer to why it should not work. In your OP I think the "burn them all" may be one of those. If she'd actually meant that, you could have said "that won't work in this campaign, it's not fitting for the story I have planned". However it seems this issue is already sorted out.
Best of luck! Preparing and DM'ing is a lot of fun! Welcome and best of luck!
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Ludo ergo sum!
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Hi, I'm a new DM who's trying to encourage few friends to play D&D. None of us has played D&D before, I played good few computer RPGs and read tonnes of fantasy/sci-fi books.
I have a disjoint in expectations that I'm not so sure whether should be corrected on the player side or mine.
Essentially, one of my players want's to play character that is everything in one - beeing able to disregard any rules and in the same time - being considered good and righteous. She wants to be an elf that is extremely strong (physical strength) and skilled in arcane arts however she did not feel like her character ever had to excesivelly study to achieve that level of knowledge. She wants to "fly around and burn everything" but in the same time she wants to be filantropist that saves everyone from opression. Also, she wants to have (as an elf) blue hair (not dyed, naturally blue) and purple eyes. She was sent (forced) on the quest by her father but also, in the same time she describes herself as totally independent rulebreaker.
With all this said, she insists that she does want to play and she's not trying to bomb the game.
I have difficulty to see any consistency in this character, I wouldnt know what to expect from it, how to drive it. What she described sounds to me like some sort of chaotic evil rather than an elf.
Should I allow this character in my game? Suggest to change to some demonic "chaotic evil" creation?
Sounds like she wants to play a more fey elf, and chaotic good - just not regarding what humans as particularly 'good' themselves. Perhaps she can be an Eladrin (they were a playable race in 4e) sent from the feywild, rather than the material plane. She will look very weird and unusual to others, and you'll need to figure out how other elfs view a cousin from the feywild.
As for alignment, it sounds like she's chaotic good, but just won't have the same perspective on 'good' as races from the material plane.
For class, maybe sorcerer?
The other option is to convince her to give a read through the various class options and see if something grabs her imagination.
Part of the that could just be player expectation. Some people want a gritty world where their character slowly rises above the “Everyman”, some people want silly RP with lots of jokes and tropes, and some people want to be superheroes that just bulldoze anything in front of them.
If you haven’t started yet, this could be the ideal time to discuss your hopes for the setting, as well as the expectations of your other players to make sure you’re all on the same page, or can at least compromise to a point where this thing you’re all creating together will be fun for everyone.
You've just given me some interesting idea... rised by the elven parent (she also insisted on being an orphan) but with difficulties to fit in and to meet other's expectations. Split between rules of elven society and some unexplained and not accepted (chaotic) desires. At some stage discovers that her real parents were from feywild and she is in matter of fact of celestial eladrin origin... well. I'll see if Ithis is not too much for me to handle. Can you mix and match 5e and 4e editions freely like this?
This.
Now addressing specific character points, I'd suggest using either pointbuy or the standard array for stats so the player has to choose between mental and physical stats.
Definitely sounds like chaotic good char to me, make sure the player understands there will be consequences when their good doesn't match local law. Philanthropy/burn it to the ground can work fine together (give to the villagers, burn the tyrants fortress to the ground)
Someone mentioned Eldarin subrace matching personality, I second that. Can either play an elf and flavor backstory as fey adjacent or use subrace from tome of foes. Given that I'd have no problem having very distinct look (positive and negative consequences follow a visually distinct character so easily)
To suggest class/subclass I'd need a better idea of if they want more physical or magic. Sorcerer and warlock fit the low effort to get magic, warlock and bard would have good magic and physical fighting depending on subclass. I'd probably lean away from warlock if they want heavy casting because low spell slots might get frustrating for the player.
Yes, we're still talking. The thing is that I'm putting a lot of work in this and would like to have a little bit of fun from the game too. At some stage it sounded like she wanted to play different game altogether. I'll see how it goes. Cheers.
Some thoughts and suggestions:
Blue hair and purple eyes: Why not? You just have to decide wether this is a normal trait for elves in your world, or if it is something very strange. Even if you're using an "official" setting, this is a very minor "rewrite" of the setting.
Alignment: She certainly sounds chaotic, but the only thing that sounds evil, is that she "wants to fly around and burn everything". If she wants to burn down cities, torch innocent children, burn maidens at the stake - yes, she's evil. If she wants to be a cleansing fire that burns away the evil from the land, I would say she sounds like a chaotic good character.
I think you might should do some expectation management with your player. It sounds to me that she has imagined the character as it should be at the end of your campaign, not the beginning. You should talk to her about that she starts at level 1, that her character is at the start of her journey, not the end. That she don't want her character to have studied - fine for me, but she should have an explanation for where her powers come from. Rule wise, both sorceror, warlock or arcane fighter could work fine. But you should take a look at the level advancement, so she understands what she knows at the beginning, and what she'll learn as the adventure unfolds.
It sounds a little to me that she has imagined the character as a character that will be cool in a fantasy novel. That's ok, but it sounds a little like she might have forgotten to reality check that with the rule system. You should work with her to make room for development in her character. Who she is at the start of the story, and what she might develop into.
It might sound a little bit scary, but to me it sounds like you have a quite creative player with a lot of ideas, why not let her "help" you flesh out and create that this is the elves in your campaign. The thing you should be concerned about is if this intrudes on the other PC's. That will be a problem, that you have to to some adjustments to the world doesn't need to be. Remember roleplaying is a collective creation. It's not you who's telling a story to the players, you create the story and the world together :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
I'd just keep her as an elf in terms of game mechanics and abilities, but she's actually Eladrin. Or you could buy Mordenkinen's Tome of Foes that has them as a player race, or use the Unearth Arcana playtest version of them (I'm not sure how much they changed after playtest). https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Eladrin-Gith.pdf
Yeah, I'm thinking I may have to leave my current group (which I started!) because I never addressed this with my players. I was expecting a fairly gritty, classic LotR style fantasy while most of them are creating what's essentially a meme-filled over-the-top anime. Let me be honest, you're not a jerk if you tell her she probably wouldn't enjoy your game and she might want to play somewhere else...it'll save you both a lot of conflict in the long run.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
It can take a few (games, campaigns, years) depending on the person to understand what D&D is and what you can and cannot do.
Based on what you have given, I think most of that is possible, but definitely not all at level 1.
Any of the cosmetic only stuff (blue hair and purple eyes) is usually fine at my tables, just have a reason why (doesn't have to be a great reason, just spend a moment to think rather than OOoo, Shiny). In this case, if she is an elf / half elf, perhaps their connection to the Feywild just manifested a bit stronger in her, or she had some incident in her youth that changed her.
Lets break it down into some basic mechanics:
The combination that first comes to mind is a Half-Elf Paladin. Paladin usually make melee attacks with Strength, can smite the non-believers, and their spellcasting is granted by their faith (aka they don't have to work for it). Unlike previous editions, a paladin can be of any alignment and not just Lawful Good. As for flying, don't expect that until level 5 at the earliest (fly spell, but paladins don't get it). A half elf gets a charisma bonus and then one of the floating +1's should be in strength.
I think there is also a conversation to be had about player expectations, in that they shouldn't just go around trying to murder everything in sight.
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To me, she sounds like a chaotic good character.
As for blue hair and purple eyes, that's a tiny cosmetic. And who knows, maybe it was a sign from the gods she was destined to do great things.
Race? An eladrin (detailed in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) or a High Elf.
As for class, sounds like an Eldritch Knight. It's a fighter subclass that dabbles into wizardry, while still being strong in heavy armor. Eldritch Knights are way less magical then wizards, but eventually, at a high level, they can cast Fly, cast Fireball, Burning Hands (burning hands right of the bat), so when this elf gets powerful enough, then CAN fly around and burn things.
Hope this helps!!
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
You guys are awesome. As a result of your comments, my attitude changed from "this is not going to work" to "this makes sense and actually it is going to be fun".
She changed form "...but you said I can do anything" to "fair enough, I can live with that". BTW - she loves Eladrin and actually admitted that she does not necessarily want to "burn everything" but "to be able to" which to me is a crucial difference.
I never expected that prepping for dnd can be such fun as well, actually I now have to tame myself to not to divert too much from scenario that I already had in my head.
The most important thing here is it sounds like she's willing to work with you to create something cool and memorable. That's really all you need.... is to work with each other.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Awesome. Glad she sounds excited to learn too. Especially for new players, and can be a little tricky to figure out what concepts fit within the rules. Yes, you can do everything, but not necessarily all at once, and definitely not at first / early levels.
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The other thing new players need to learn, often just over time, is that they don't actually want a character who can do everything. In the long run, it's much more fun to play a flawed, limited character and have to overcome those limitations, than it is to play someone who can just snap fingers and solve every problem or challenge effortlessly. The latter may be a ball to play for one session, but it has no staying power to entertain most of us.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That exact reason is why “Session 0” is so danged important. Your group could have discussed expectations beforehand and that would have allowed you all an opportunity to sort out the gritty/funny dynamic ahead of time.
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It might also be nice to explain that, while she might not be able to do all those things *right away,* that doesn't mean she can't eventually fulfill her original character idea in some form later on. Let her know that she can still work and build towards that flying elf princess that burninates evildoers over time. Explain how level progression typically works, how classes and levels are balanced, how multiclassing works if that's the route she wants to go, etc..
Basically, if you feel like you have to tell her no about stuff, explain why (or better, why not *yet*), but more importantly you should keep an open mind about the stuff she's asking and try your best to find a way to include it, and give her a mental picture of what those game mechanics might look like.
That'll go a long way in mitigating the disappointment of "I thought you said I can be anything..."
Remember, Spiderman was nowhere near as badass in the beginning as he is now. Her character is starting out, but eventually....
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Yes, the idea of a character growing into its final power level is one of the most appealing things about RPGs. It's why I always prefer to start at level 1 and not 3 or 5 or something. Lower level start = more growing.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Cool! I think she might end up being one of the players/characters you will love in the end. She sounds creative and out of the box. That's cool, and she might add a lot of flavour and world building to your campaign if you give her room.
I think all of us DM's have a tendency to think like you did: "OMG, this is not what I thought, this is not what I imagined". I try to tell my self as often as possible that my initial response should not be "no" (which is often the first thought), but rather think "why not"? If I can't come up with a good reason for "why not", I'll allow it. However, there are of course instances where there is a legitime answer to why it should not work. In your OP I think the "burn them all" may be one of those. If she'd actually meant that, you could have said "that won't work in this campaign, it's not fitting for the story I have planned". However it seems this issue is already sorted out.
Best of luck! Preparing and DM'ing is a lot of fun! Welcome and best of luck!
Ludo ergo sum!