Okay, this is a bit of a strange concept that I've never heard of before, but I recently got the idea of having a big culture in my setting be the opposite of Ancestor Worship. A Descendent/Progeny Worshipping religious/spiritual culture that does the opposite of veneration of the dead: they'd venerate the unborn (or possibly just their children, I haven't decided yet).
(Note: This thread is to generate/inspire ideas, not publish/preview any game mechanics I've made.)
In the real world, there are quite a few cultures that have historically venerated their dead ancestors, such as China (as a part of filial piety), Mexico (Dia de Los Muertos), Rome (Lares and Manes), Greece (Hero-Cults), and many others. There are quite a few examples of ancestor-worshipping cultures in D&D and other fantasy worlds, such as the Valenar and Aereni Elves from Eberron, the Dwarven Paragons from Dragon Age, Dunmer and Aldmer from the Elder Scrolls, and a few others. I've also designed at least one ancestor-worshipping culture before, with the spectral Fehntüm race that's main culture worships their undead ancestors and allows them to possess them in order to bring them back to a semblance of "life". However, I just had an idea that I'm pretty sure is mostly novel: what about a culture where people worship their unborn progeny? As far as I know, none of those exist in real life probably because they're a pretty strange concept and there wouldn't be much incentive to do so (your parents and grandparents can tell you to still honor/venerate them after they die, your unborn children can't do that). However, in a fantasy world, anything is possible, and there could definitely be some reason to do so.
So, my current question when it comes to this idea is why would someone worship their unborn children. Here are my current ideas:
The Unborn Gods. They believe that their children/other progeny will/can be gods/demigods. For whatever reason, this culture doesn't worship any existing deities and instead believe that "true gods" are yet to be born and will be descended from them. Perhaps this culture practices some kind of magical eugenics to select certain qualities they want their children to have in order to achieve this goal. This culture would also need a reason to believe why their unborn offspring could be gods, maybe because they already have some divine blood (being descended from Empyreans and/or commonly producing Divine Soul Sorcerers). Basically magic Nazis that believe in their children will/can be something like The Becoming God from Eberron.
Aid in Fertility. They think venerating/worshipping their unborn children will somehow allow them to give birth (or make the birthing process easier). Maybe this culture for some reason believes that all the souls of people that will ever exist already exist and the souls of the unborn can choose how and when they want to be born, thus only choosing families they want to be born in, possibly ones that already "love"/"worship" them? This might make sense for some race that has difficulty reproducing, like Elves or maybe some artificial race (Autognomes? Warforged?) that believes that venerating/worshipping their unborn will make them more likely to give birth/reproduce.
Children Are Innocent. They revere the perceived innocence that comes along with childhood, believing that children are perfect and adults are inherently sinful/imperfect. They could be attempting to use magic to either stop aging at a certain maturity or somehow return their minds to that level of maturity. How this society survives would be a wonder, but it might work for some species that don't need the common necessities.
So . . . what do you think? What other ideas do you have? Do you think any of these would work? Is it a unique and interesting concept or a stupid idea that I should feel ashamed for coming up with (not being serious with this question, obviously)? Has anyone ever done anything like this before, in the real world or fiction?
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It's an interesting idea to theme a setting around!
My first thought is; what impact would this have on governance? If you believe that adults are imperfect and children innocent then are people more imperfect the older they get? Would there be an age limit (either imposed or by societal pressure) on rulership?
A civilisation ruled by people limited to their 20's could have fewer entrenched views, and be more inclined to constant reform (but towards what could be interesting). Would monarchy exist ("my child is definitely going to be the next god") or something more collective ("anybody's child could be the next god, and we need to encourage them to be found")?
If this were the case, what role would elders (no longer eligible to rule) serve? Would they essentially retire early, or would older adults serve in more menial roles, leading to younger officers command older/veteran soldiers being standard practice?
What would a child's life be like before they're expected to take on responsibilities? Are they being groomed for positions, or merely presented with knowledge and allowed to learn as they please (i.e- adults try not to shape/corrupt their opinions, just present them with information). Would such a society be open and welcoming, or simplistic and tribal?
Lots to think about!
It may help to try and plan out a smaller microcosm, like a small village, and then try to expand outwards from there how the same philosophy might affect larger settlements and structures.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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"The unborn gods" is the one I see as closest to working.
In practice, what I could see working is a focus on having the best peak. Many people are defined by what they accomplish in their teens and early adulthood. So maybe your descendant-focused society could be all about maximizing their early potential. They're all raised with tough education and Spartan-level training so they can accomplish as much as they possibly can while still in their prime.
As they are venerating those who haven't yet done anything to prove themselves, I would think this kind of culture would have a lot of focus on hope, positivity, and faith. They would also put a lot of emphasis on education and general childcare.
What to do with elders is a toughie. Age begets wisdom and experience, this is just a natural consequence of linear time. You'd either need to greatly devalue wisdom or have a good way to transfer it in a way that a younger mind could understand and absorb it. Since we're talking D&D rather than just straight up anthropology, I'd probably include some kind of traditional magic/psionic ritual that does this in a better way than sitting around listening to Socrates ramble on. This could tie into education, and it could be that elders are used as kind of "wisdom collectors" that are routinely drained for the benefit of the youth. This draining could also keep them less threatening and lessen the chance of an uprising against the whippersnappers. When you have inequality, you need a mechanism that keeps things stable.
Childbirth would likely be a massive celebration if this were the case. There could be a huge party that speaks to the numerous/varied opportunities that the new child would have.
An interesting take on this would be a civilization that is highly infertile - they would naturally begin to revere the unborn/newborn/descendants, as it's such a rare and powerful thing (within the context of the infertile civilization).
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Maybe they are like elves in that they have a reincarnation cycle, but they lose their memories as they age. So only the young are fully in tune with their past and have access to all their skills and knowledge. They would be seen as the most capable members of society.
I think this would lend itself to a warlike society which basically wants its citizens to die before they get old, so they can rejoin society as useful, productive members once again. I would imagine a seriously spooky sort of Fury Road death cult vibe.
It seems inevitable this will turn into a commentary on real society somehow. So I guess figure out what you think is worth saying, lol.
I just realized a possible primary source of inspiration for this that can serve as a cultural motivation for practicing this form of Progeny Worship: the Roko's Basilisk thought experiment. The believers in the Unborn Gods believe that they'll punish anyone that doesn't worship them and do their best to bring them into existence as quickly as possible.
Yeah, that'll work. That's why the culture exists. They believe the gods are like Roko's Basilisk, and the fact that they know of their possible future existence obligates them into aiding in bringing them into existence.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
That's interesting. I personally think Roko's Basilisk is a bit silly, but if you invent a long-lived type of people, and the understanding is that gods are just as emotionally driven and fallible as mortals, which is usually the vibe, then it at least makes sense in context.
Of course, you still have to contend with some silliness. For example, there are already gods, presumably. And, people don't give birth to gods, typically. Why would they expect to? Is there some precedent?
Is this meaningfully distinct from a society where the old are at the mercy of the young? Where the old are unable to work to produce value for capital, and thus cannot provide for themselves and require support? If not, maybe that's your hook, right?
That's interesting. I personally think Roko's Basilisk is a bit silly, but if you invent a long-lived type of people, and the understanding is that gods are just as emotionally driven and fallible as mortals, which is usually the vibe, then it at least makes sense in context.
Oh, I agree it's silly (or, at least, think it's silly to worry about). However, in a D&D-style fantasy world where magic exists, the Afterlife is proven to exist, and the Gods are glorified Tulpas? Definitely could be something to worry about.
Of course, you still have to contend with some silliness. For example, there are already gods, presumably. And, people don't give birth to gods, typically. Why would they expect to? Is there some precedent?
Maybe they have some kind of divine blood, as I mentioned being a possibility in Option 1: the Unborn Gods? They could be the setting's version of Aasimar or have an increased likelihood of producing Divine Soul Sorcerers, or something like that.
Is this meaningfully distinct from a society where the old are at the mercy of the young? Where the old are unable to work to produce value for capital, and thus cannot provide for themselves and require support? If not, maybe that's your hook, right?
I think it would be. In this culture I'm thinking up, the old would worship the unborn (or a possible god that they believe isn't born yet), not just be victims of a poor societal structure. If old people in this society were to be discriminated against, it would be because they've lost all chance of producing the God(s) they worship.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Okay, this is a bit of a strange concept that I've never heard of before, but I recently got the idea of having a big culture in my setting be the opposite of Ancestor Worship. A Descendent/Progeny Worshipping religious/spiritual culture that does the opposite of veneration of the dead: they'd venerate the unborn (or possibly just their children, I haven't decided yet).
(Note: This thread is to generate/inspire ideas, not publish/preview any game mechanics I've made.)
In the real world, there are quite a few cultures that have historically venerated their dead ancestors, such as China (as a part of filial piety), Mexico (Dia de Los Muertos), Rome (Lares and Manes), Greece (Hero-Cults), and many others. There are quite a few examples of ancestor-worshipping cultures in D&D and other fantasy worlds, such as the Valenar and Aereni Elves from Eberron, the Dwarven Paragons from Dragon Age, Dunmer and Aldmer from the Elder Scrolls, and a few others. I've also designed at least one ancestor-worshipping culture before, with the spectral Fehntüm race that's main culture worships their undead ancestors and allows them to possess them in order to bring them back to a semblance of "life". However, I just had an idea that I'm pretty sure is mostly novel: what about a culture where people worship their unborn progeny? As far as I know, none of those exist in real life probably because they're a pretty strange concept and there wouldn't be much incentive to do so (your parents and grandparents can tell you to still honor/venerate them after they die, your unborn children can't do that). However, in a fantasy world, anything is possible, and there could definitely be some reason to do so.
So, my current question when it comes to this idea is why would someone worship their unborn children. Here are my current ideas:
So . . . what do you think? What other ideas do you have? Do you think any of these would work? Is it a unique and interesting concept or a stupid idea that I should feel ashamed for coming up with (not being serious with this question, obviously)? Has anyone ever done anything like this before, in the real world or fiction?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's an interesting idea to theme a setting around!
My first thought is; what impact would this have on governance? If you believe that adults are imperfect and children innocent then are people more imperfect the older they get? Would there be an age limit (either imposed or by societal pressure) on rulership?
A civilisation ruled by people limited to their 20's could have fewer entrenched views, and be more inclined to constant reform (but towards what could be interesting). Would monarchy exist ("my child is definitely going to be the next god") or something more collective ("anybody's child could be the next god, and we need to encourage them to be found")?
If this were the case, what role would elders (no longer eligible to rule) serve? Would they essentially retire early, or would older adults serve in more menial roles, leading to younger officers command older/veteran soldiers being standard practice?
What would a child's life be like before they're expected to take on responsibilities? Are they being groomed for positions, or merely presented with knowledge and allowed to learn as they please (i.e- adults try not to shape/corrupt their opinions, just present them with information). Would such a society be open and welcoming, or simplistic and tribal?
Lots to think about!
It may help to try and plan out a smaller microcosm, like a small village, and then try to expand outwards from there how the same philosophy might affect larger settlements and structures.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
"The unborn gods" is the one I see as closest to working.
In practice, what I could see working is a focus on having the best peak. Many people are defined by what they accomplish in their teens and early adulthood. So maybe your descendant-focused society could be all about maximizing their early potential. They're all raised with tough education and Spartan-level training so they can accomplish as much as they possibly can while still in their prime.
As they are venerating those who haven't yet done anything to prove themselves, I would think this kind of culture would have a lot of focus on hope, positivity, and faith. They would also put a lot of emphasis on education and general childcare.
What to do with elders is a toughie. Age begets wisdom and experience, this is just a natural consequence of linear time. You'd either need to greatly devalue wisdom or have a good way to transfer it in a way that a younger mind could understand and absorb it. Since we're talking D&D rather than just straight up anthropology, I'd probably include some kind of traditional magic/psionic ritual that does this in a better way than sitting around listening to Socrates ramble on. This could tie into education, and it could be that elders are used as kind of "wisdom collectors" that are routinely drained for the benefit of the youth. This draining could also keep them less threatening and lessen the chance of an uprising against the whippersnappers. When you have inequality, you need a mechanism that keeps things stable.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Childbirth would likely be a massive celebration if this were the case. There could be a huge party that speaks to the numerous/varied opportunities that the new child would have.
An interesting take on this would be a civilization that is highly infertile - they would naturally begin to revere the unborn/newborn/descendants, as it's such a rare and powerful thing (within the context of the infertile civilization).
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Maybe they are like elves in that they have a reincarnation cycle, but they lose their memories as they age. So only the young are fully in tune with their past and have access to all their skills and knowledge. They would be seen as the most capable members of society.
I think this would lend itself to a warlike society which basically wants its citizens to die before they get old, so they can rejoin society as useful, productive members once again. I would imagine a seriously spooky sort of Fury Road death cult vibe.
It seems inevitable this will turn into a commentary on real society somehow. So I guess figure out what you think is worth saying, lol.
I just realized a possible primary source of inspiration for this that can serve as a cultural motivation for practicing this form of Progeny Worship: the Roko's Basilisk thought experiment. The believers in the Unborn Gods believe that they'll punish anyone that doesn't worship them and do their best to bring them into existence as quickly as possible.
Yeah, that'll work. That's why the culture exists. They believe the gods are like Roko's Basilisk, and the fact that they know of their possible future existence obligates them into aiding in bringing them into existence.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That's interesting. I personally think Roko's Basilisk is a bit silly, but if you invent a long-lived type of people, and the understanding is that gods are just as emotionally driven and fallible as mortals, which is usually the vibe, then it at least makes sense in context.
Of course, you still have to contend with some silliness. For example, there are already gods, presumably. And, people don't give birth to gods, typically. Why would they expect to? Is there some precedent?
Is this meaningfully distinct from a society where the old are at the mercy of the young? Where the old are unable to work to produce value for capital, and thus cannot provide for themselves and require support? If not, maybe that's your hook, right?
Oh, I agree it's silly (or, at least, think it's silly to worry about). However, in a D&D-style fantasy world where magic exists, the Afterlife is proven to exist, and the Gods are glorified Tulpas? Definitely could be something to worry about.
Maybe they have some kind of divine blood, as I mentioned being a possibility in Option 1: the Unborn Gods? They could be the setting's version of Aasimar or have an increased likelihood of producing Divine Soul Sorcerers, or something like that.
I think it would be. In this culture I'm thinking up, the old would worship the unborn (or a possible god that they believe isn't born yet), not just be victims of a poor societal structure. If old people in this society were to be discriminated against, it would be because they've lost all chance of producing the God(s) they worship.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms