Had another crazy idea while brainstorming ideas for a subclass and wanted to discuss the potential implications of it:
Teleportation as a movement type like flying/swimming/climbing/burrowing.
For the sake of the discussion, assume:
uses walking speed/movement instead of action (as in the teleportation is taking the place of walking / can't go further than movement speed would allow)
targets unoccupied space that you can see within that range
always on/passive feature/trait
Sounds kinda crazy, but the way I was thinking of it is that the main reason why short-range teleports are considered strong is that they are often "bonus distance". If you take that away, then you just have the "no opportunity attack" associated with instant movement, right? Am I wrong in thinking that it is not actually all that powerful in that context?
Teleportation also does other stuff, like instantly escaping grapples. It also allows the teleported to reach/access places they would otherwise not be able to reach, which is one of the things people complain about when it comes to flying speeds. In addition, certain things break down when teleportation is deducted from movement, especially for races with walking speeds lower than 30. For example, a Halfling could only teleport 25 feet maximum.
The thing about teleportation, in game and in the traditional sense, is you don’t really move as we think of moving. You are in one place, then you are in another place. You don’t actually ever enter, exit or occupy any of the spaces in between. You’re not invisibly or very quickly walking; you’re just there.
That’s why you can bypass things like OAs and wall of force. You start next to the enemy, then you are not. You start on one side of the wall, and end in the other. But you don’t actually traverse the spaces in between. It’s very much the transporters in Star Trek. You instantly move, but you don’t don’t go through the space in between. It can also allow what amounts to limited flight. If you have a teleport range of 30’, you can just reach the cliff that’s 30’ up. No climb check, No anything, you are just up there, dropping a rope for the rest of the party to climb up. So, yes, it can be very strong.
Teleportation also does other stuff, like instantly escaping grapples. It also allows the teleported to reach/access places they would otherwise not be able to reach, which is one of the things people complain about when it comes to flying speeds. In addition, certain things break down when teleportation is deducted from movement, especially for races with walking speeds lower than 30. For example, a Halfling could only teleport 25 feet maximum.
Exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I did not think of the grapple bit, obviously enough. Would you consider that too strong for a teleportation-themed subclass feature for, say, a rouge, or a singular species trait like the Changling?
The thing about teleportation, in game and in the traditional sense, is you don’t really move as we think of moving. You are in one place, then you are in another place. You don’t actually ever enter, exit or occupy any of the spaces in between. You’re not invisibly or very quickly walking; you’re just there.
That’s why you can bypass things like OAs and wall of force. You start next to the enemy, then you are not. You start on one side of the wall, and end in the other. But you don’t actually traverse the spaces in between. It’s very much the transporters in Star Trek. You instantly move, but you don’t don’t go through the space in between. It can also allow what amounts to limited flight. If you have a teleport range of 30’, you can just reach the cliff that’s 30’ up. No climb check, No anything, you are just up there, dropping a rope for the rest of the party to climb up. So, yes, it can be very strong.
Right, I understand all that. The usage of movement speed was the easiest way I could think of so that it still costs something but still fulfills the fantasy of teleporting all around constantly.
I see. I’ll still mention things like wall of force, which teleport lets you bypass. Getting by it for free is kind of a big deal.
You’d basically be giving them a 2nd level spell (misty step) for free, unlimited times. Check out eladrin, they get fey step PB/day. It might give you ideas.
I see. I’ll still mention things like wall of force, which teleport lets you bypass. Getting by it for free is kind of a big deal.
You’d basically be giving them a 2nd level spell (misty step) for free, unlimited times. Check out eladrin, they get fey step PB/day. It might give you ideas.
I am aware of the Eladrin and Shadar-kai versions, which is why I was trying to do something different. There are also the "shadow step" versions. All of which have greater distance, additional effects, and are in addition to regular movement.
Granted, those are all generally tier 2 unlocks, so I can see the need to gate it a bit rather than full power right from the start (since I am leaning heavily towards a species trait at this point in time. I really like the idea of a "Blink Fairy" of some sort.)
Something like cost 3x movement until 5th level, and 2x until 9th level, or just a clean 5xPB. Then as mentioned before, it would probably only get a supporting ribbon feature like the Changling.
I know I'm SUPER late to the party, but I love this idea! I think it's super cool. So let's add the new movement type.
You may Teleport UP TO YOUR MOVEMENT SPEED as part of your movement action. This follows the normal combined movement rules. While moving in this way you are not hindered by difficult terrain and do not provoke attack of opportunity. Unlike spells like misty step, you do no need to see the location you are teleporting to, however you must be able to physically get to that location. If you are knocked prone, you still must expend half your movement to stand.
If you are grappled, you cannot teleport due to the "up your movement speed" and it kinda reminds me of how Kurt cannot teleport while Jean restains him in X2 (bc for spmeone reason Jean just turns off his teleportation??) and this blends really well with high movement classes like monk or barbarian, esp bc they have other ways of dealing with grapple. Honestly, this seems more like a super specialized version of flight, but that's kinda the idea, it's basically just flight, but cooler 😎
Oh yeah! This would also merge with spells and abilities that alter your movement (like freedom of movement, longstrider, etc) and bc it's a movement and not a spell or action, you can still vortex warp or misty step afterwords.
Imagine the monk's missle deflecting ability but it's flavored like teleporting yourself to catch the arrow. Flurry of blows suddenly got much more aesthetic! Is Nightcrawler a kensei monk? 🤔
Teleportation also does other stuff, like instantly escaping grapples. It also allows the teleported to reach/access places they would otherwise not be able to reach, which is one of the things people complain about when it comes to flying speeds. In addition, certain things break down when teleportation is deducted from movement, especially for races with walking speeds lower than 30. For example, a Halfling could only teleport 25 feet maximum.
Exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I did not think of the grapple bit, obviously enough. Would you consider that too strong for a teleportation-themed subclass feature for, say, a rouge, or a singular species trait like the Changling?
The thing about teleportation, in game and in the traditional sense, is you don’t really move as we think of moving. You are in one place, then you are in another place. You don’t actually ever enter, exit or occupy any of the spaces in between. You’re not invisibly or very quickly walking; you’re just there.
That’s why you can bypass things like OAs and wall of force. You start next to the enemy, then you are not. You start on one side of the wall, and end in the other. But you don’t actually traverse the spaces in between. It’s very much the transporters in Star Trek. You instantly move, but you don’t don’t go through the space in between. It can also allow what amounts to limited flight. If you have a teleport range of 30’, you can just reach the cliff that’s 30’ up. No climb check, No anything, you are just up there, dropping a rope for the rest of the party to climb up. So, yes, it can be very strong.
Right, I understand all that. The usage of movement speed was the easiest way I could think of so that it still costs something but still fulfills the fantasy of teleporting all around constantly.
The Blink spell is the best way to fulfill the teleporting around constantly fantasy. Unlimited teleportation is incredibly strong, just look at e.g. the X-men comics, where the characters with unlimited teleportation have no other powers and are generally physically incredibly weak, but can easily best multiple other mutants.
Teleportation also bypasses difficult terrain, which usually slows the movement speed.
Perhaps you could come up with limitations inspired by folklore if you wanted it to be more balanced in comparison to flight? Vampires were said to be unable to cross running water, perhaps this also can't be done with teleportation? Or perhaps magic interferes with this ability, and so one cannot teleport into an area where there is already another spell taking effect? In addition, I'd keep Joust's suggestion of "if grappled no teleportation". Maybe teleportation (when this passive ability is activated) costs concentration, so one cannot benefit from concentration spells at the same time (and do something like be invisible whilst teleporting).
The Blink spell is the best way to fulfill the teleporting around constantly fantasy. Unlimited teleportation is incredibly strong, just look at e.g. the X-men comics, where the characters with unlimited teleportation have no other powers and are generally physically incredibly weak, but can easily best multiple other mutants.
It is not exactly fair to compare the strength to a form of media that is not playing by the same rules and purposely meant to be "extraordinary" and exciting. Sure teleportation can be strong under the right circumstances, but it is not the solution to every single problem. Hell, I have heard of tables banning flight speeds for being "broken", but that is in the same boat. It can trivialize some things, but do absolutely nothing in other situations.
Teleportation also bypasses difficult terrain, which usually slows the movement speed.
Perhaps you could come up with limitations inspired by folklore if you wanted it to be more balanced in comparison to flight? Vampires were said to be unable to cross running water, perhaps this also can't be done with teleportation? Or perhaps magic interferes with this ability, and so one cannot teleport into an area where there is already another spell taking effect? In addition, I'd keep Joust's suggestion of "if grappled no teleportation". Maybe teleportation (when this passive ability is activated) costs concentration, so one cannot benefit from concentration spells at the same time (and do something like be invisible whilst teleporting).
Best of luck with your decisions though.
Right. As mentioned, the limit was to keep it to a short distance initially and scaling to full speed late game, as well as being the cornerstone feature of the species much like the Changeling's Shapechanger feature.
All that to say that as it stands, I have not even playtested this species. I just have not found it compelling enough play over other options I have made that are more interesting to me.
I tell you what. I will make it more presentable and publish it. Then you can tell me how it is after playing it yourself.
I have no clue what that other guy is talking about when it comes to teleporters in X-Men! Kurt is literally an acrobat who is proficient in swordplay and is built so Lean, and blue, and oh my God he's so hot. He's a perfect example of a rouge who can teleport. Also he can use is tail??? That's a secondary mutation. There's also Magick who can teleport, along with having a big ass sword and... Idk... MAGIC?? Most teleporters can do more than teleport. They usually have other abilities like spells/magic, foresight, telepathy, etc. DND 5e is a heroic fantasy, if my player wants to play a hero who can teleport, imma give them that and so much more
I just don't think this works as an at-will thing.
A lot of stuff in this game is limited for a reason - being able to use a power several times a day gives you 95% of the flavor and feel that unlimited use does with only a fraction of the abuse potential. Also, making something a resource means that you need to weigh that resource use against your need and manage it. It makes those decisions matter, and meaningful decisions are the thing that makes RPGs fun and satisfying.
I made a teleport-focused sorcerer subclass that gets two "free" teleports and can spend spell slots for additional ones. Upgrades focus on adding different effects to the teleports rather than just increasing the quantity. Along with the teleport spells it gives, the subclass feels very much like a teleporter without just breaking various challenges all day long. It's called the Riftwalker in my sig if you are interested.
I just don't think this works as an at-will thing.
A lot of stuff in this game is limited for a reason - being able to use a power several times a day gives you 95% of the flavor and feel that unlimited use does with only a fraction of the abuse potential. Also, making something a resource means that you need to weigh that resource use against your need and manage it. It makes those decisions matter, and meaningful decisions are the thing that makes RPGs fun and satisfying.
Your concern is 100% valid. It can absolutely be abused, but so can just about anything if you are creative enough in the right situation.
The current iteration is heavily influenced by the Changeling, a powerful ability supported by smaller features. Even then, it does not start at full strength, just 10ft, and has all the usual attributes of "unoccupied space" and "must see the location".
I found all that combined to be fair. Boring even.
It took me a surprising amount of time to find the exact verbiage the book uses for using movement to make sure I got the text right in the feature. I also did not remember until going over the rules for all this again that classifying it as a "movement speed" automatically closes the "grappled loophole" that has been brought up multiple times.
You've closed the grapple loop hole, but it still easily negates a lot of environmental challenges. Peeking through a lock hole or a gap under a door is sufficient to teleport through and unlock it from the other side - or simply finding a window allows them to get inside, hazardous terrain can trivially be teleported over, combining with various divination spells or a familiar allows teleporting to other sides of solid walls.
You've closed the grapple loop hole, but it still easily negates a lot of environmental challenges. Peeking through a lock hole or a gap under a door is sufficient to teleport through and unlock it from the other side - or simply finding a window allows them to get inside, hazardous terrain can trivially be teleported over, combining with various divination spells or a familiar allows teleporting to other sides of solid walls.
Flight also negates the same environmental hazards (better, actually), the amorphous trait sets a precedent for doors and such, and walls require expenditure of other resources (specifically time). And again, it is a standalone feature like shapechanger. You teleport and that is it.
You've closed the grapple loop hole, but it still easily negates a lot of environmental challenges. Peeking through a lock hole or a gap under a door is sufficient to teleport through and unlock it from the other side - or simply finding a window allows them to get inside, hazardous terrain can trivially be teleported over, combining with various divination spells or a familiar allows teleporting to other sides of solid walls.
Flight also negates the same environmental hazards (better, actually), the amorphous trait sets a precedent for doors and such, and walls require expenditure of other resources (specifically time). And again, it is a standalone feature like shapechanger. You teleport and that is it.
Flight gets you across the chasm. Amorphous gets you through the keyhole. Teleportation does both. Not only one or the other.
You've closed the grapple loop hole, but it still easily negates a lot of environmental challenges. Peeking through a lock hole or a gap under a door is sufficient to teleport through and unlock it from the other side - or simply finding a window allows them to get inside, hazardous terrain can trivially be teleported over, combining with various divination spells or a familiar allows teleporting to other sides of solid walls.
Flight also negates the same environmental hazards (better, actually), the amorphous trait sets a precedent for doors and such, and walls require expenditure of other resources (specifically time). And again, it is a standalone feature like shapechanger. You teleport and that is it.
Flight gets you across the chasm. Amorphous gets you through the keyhole. Teleportation does both. Not only one or the other.
Right. In those cases, there are other traits in addition to flight and amorphous respectively, they are not alone. This one is. A one trick fairy, if you will.
What other stuff? Do tell. That was the original purpose of the thread after all.
And once again, I am using the Changeling as precedent here. I find them to be comparable in strength for their respective pillars. Strong, but not universally applicable.
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Had another crazy idea while brainstorming ideas for a subclass and wanted to discuss the potential implications of it:
Teleportation as a movement type like flying/swimming/climbing/burrowing.
For the sake of the discussion, assume:
Sounds kinda crazy, but the way I was thinking of it is that the main reason why short-range teleports are considered strong is that they are often "bonus distance". If you take that away, then you just have the "no opportunity attack" associated with instant movement, right? Am I wrong in thinking that it is not actually all that powerful in that context?
Teleportation also does other stuff, like instantly escaping grapples. It also allows the teleported to reach/access places they would otherwise not be able to reach, which is one of the things people complain about when it comes to flying speeds. In addition, certain things break down when teleportation is deducted from movement, especially for races with walking speeds lower than 30. For example, a Halfling could only teleport 25 feet maximum.
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The thing about teleportation, in game and in the traditional sense, is you don’t really move as we think of moving. You are in one place, then you are in another place. You don’t actually ever enter, exit or occupy any of the spaces in between. You’re not invisibly or very quickly walking; you’re just there.
That’s why you can bypass things like OAs and wall of force. You start next to the enemy, then you are not. You start on one side of the wall, and end in the other. But you don’t actually traverse the spaces in between. It’s very much the transporters in Star Trek. You instantly move, but you don’t don’t go through the space in between.
It can also allow what amounts to limited flight. If you have a teleport range of 30’, you can just reach the cliff that’s 30’ up. No climb check, No anything, you are just up there, dropping a rope for the rest of the party to climb up.
So, yes, it can be very strong.
Exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I did not think of the grapple bit, obviously enough. Would you consider that too strong for a teleportation-themed subclass feature for, say, a rouge, or a singular species trait like the Changling?
Right, I understand all that. The usage of movement speed was the easiest way I could think of so that it still costs something but still fulfills the fantasy of teleporting all around constantly.
I see. I’ll still mention things like wall of force, which teleport lets you bypass. Getting by it for free is kind of a big deal.
You’d basically be giving them a 2nd level spell (misty step) for free, unlimited times. Check out eladrin, they get fey step PB/day. It might give you ideas.
I am aware of the Eladrin and Shadar-kai versions, which is why I was trying to do something different. There are also the "shadow step" versions. All of which have greater distance, additional effects, and are in addition to regular movement.
Granted, those are all generally tier 2 unlocks, so I can see the need to gate it a bit rather than full power right from the start (since I am leaning heavily towards a species trait at this point in time. I really like the idea of a "Blink Fairy" of some sort.)
Something like cost 3x movement until 5th level, and 2x until 9th level, or just a clean 5xPB. Then as mentioned before, it would probably only get a supporting ribbon feature like the Changling.
I know I'm SUPER late to the party, but I love this idea! I think it's super cool. So let's add the new movement type.
You may Teleport UP TO YOUR MOVEMENT SPEED as part of your movement action. This follows the normal combined movement rules. While moving in this way you are not hindered by difficult terrain and do not provoke attack of opportunity. Unlike spells like misty step, you do no need to see the location you are teleporting to, however you must be able to physically get to that location. If you are knocked prone, you still must expend half your movement to stand.
If you are grappled, you cannot teleport due to the "up your movement speed" and it kinda reminds me of how Kurt cannot teleport while Jean restains him in X2 (bc for spmeone reason Jean just turns off his teleportation??) and this blends really well with high movement classes like monk or barbarian, esp bc they have other ways of dealing with grapple. Honestly, this seems more like a super specialized version of flight, but that's kinda the idea, it's basically just flight, but cooler 😎
Oh yeah! This would also merge with spells and abilities that alter your movement (like freedom of movement, longstrider, etc) and bc it's a movement and not a spell or action, you can still vortex warp or misty step afterwords.
Imagine the monk's missle deflecting ability but it's flavored like teleporting yourself to catch the arrow. Flurry of blows suddenly got much more aesthetic! Is Nightcrawler a kensei monk? 🤔
The Blink spell is the best way to fulfill the teleporting around constantly fantasy. Unlimited teleportation is incredibly strong, just look at e.g. the X-men comics, where the characters with unlimited teleportation have no other powers and are generally physically incredibly weak, but can easily best multiple other mutants.
Teleportation also bypasses difficult terrain, which usually slows the movement speed.
Perhaps you could come up with limitations inspired by folklore if you wanted it to be more balanced in comparison to flight? Vampires were said to be unable to cross running water, perhaps this also can't be done with teleportation? Or perhaps magic interferes with this ability, and so one cannot teleport into an area where there is already another spell taking effect? In addition, I'd keep Joust's suggestion of "if grappled no teleportation". Maybe teleportation (when this passive ability is activated) costs concentration, so one cannot benefit from concentration spells at the same time (and do something like be invisible whilst teleporting).
Best of luck with your decisions though.
Thank you. Someone gets it.
It is not exactly fair to compare the strength to a form of media that is not playing by the same rules and purposely meant to be "extraordinary" and exciting. Sure teleportation can be strong under the right circumstances, but it is not the solution to every single problem. Hell, I have heard of tables banning flight speeds for being "broken", but that is in the same boat. It can trivialize some things, but do absolutely nothing in other situations.
Right. As mentioned, the limit was to keep it to a short distance initially and scaling to full speed late game, as well as being the cornerstone feature of the species much like the Changeling's Shapechanger feature.
All that to say that as it stands, I have not even playtested this species. I just have not found it compelling enough play over other options I have made that are more interesting to me.
I tell you what. I will make it more presentable and publish it. Then you can tell me how it is after playing it yourself.
I have no clue what that other guy is talking about when it comes to teleporters in X-Men! Kurt is literally an acrobat who is proficient in swordplay and is built so Lean, and blue, and oh my God he's so hot. He's a perfect example of a rouge who can teleport. Also he can use is tail??? That's a secondary mutation. There's also Magick who can teleport, along with having a big ass sword and... Idk... MAGIC?? Most teleporters can do more than teleport. They usually have other abilities like spells/magic, foresight, telepathy, etc. DND 5e is a heroic fantasy, if my player wants to play a hero who can teleport, imma give them that and so much more
I just don't think this works as an at-will thing.
A lot of stuff in this game is limited for a reason - being able to use a power several times a day gives you 95% of the flavor and feel that unlimited use does with only a fraction of the abuse potential. Also, making something a resource means that you need to weigh that resource use against your need and manage it. It makes those decisions matter, and meaningful decisions are the thing that makes RPGs fun and satisfying.
I made a teleport-focused sorcerer subclass that gets two "free" teleports and can spend spell slots for additional ones. Upgrades focus on adding different effects to the teleports rather than just increasing the quantity. Along with the teleport spells it gives, the subclass feels very much like a teleporter without just breaking various challenges all day long. It's called the Riftwalker in my sig if you are interested.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Your concern is 100% valid. It can absolutely be abused, but so can just about anything if you are creative enough in the right situation.
The current iteration is heavily influenced by the Changeling, a powerful ability supported by smaller features. Even then, it does not start at full strength, just 10ft, and has all the usual attributes of "unoccupied space" and "must see the location".
I found all that combined to be fair. Boring even.
And here we go, one super broken species. https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/1359270-blink-fairy
It took me a surprising amount of time to find the exact verbiage the book uses for using movement to make sure I got the text right in the feature. I also did not remember until going over the rules for all this again that classifying it as a "movement speed" automatically closes the "grappled loophole" that has been brought up multiple times.
You've closed the grapple loop hole, but it still easily negates a lot of environmental challenges. Peeking through a lock hole or a gap under a door is sufficient to teleport through and unlock it from the other side - or simply finding a window allows them to get inside, hazardous terrain can trivially be teleported over, combining with various divination spells or a familiar allows teleporting to other sides of solid walls.
Flight also negates the same environmental hazards (better, actually), the amorphous trait sets a precedent for doors and such, and walls require expenditure of other resources (specifically time). And again, it is a standalone feature like shapechanger. You teleport and that is it.
Flight gets you across the chasm. Amorphous gets you through the keyhole. Teleportation does both. Not only one or the other.
^^^ plus other stuff neither can do.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Right. In those cases, there are other traits in addition to flight and amorphous respectively, they are not alone. This one is. A one trick fairy, if you will.
What other stuff? Do tell. That was the original purpose of the thread after all.
And once again, I am using the Changeling as precedent here. I find them to be comparable in strength for their respective pillars. Strong, but not universally applicable.