3rd level features are meant to (1) make Sneak Attack easier to score and (2) expand the variety of roles the Rogue can play. Being able to Sneak Attack grappled foes does a good job at #1, but you don't really offer anything for #2.
9th level features are meant to expand the variety of roles the Rogue can play outside combat, and only sometimes have a benefit in combat. Your 9th level feature doesn't do this at all (and frankly, could be moved to 3rd level without ruining the Rogue's balance)
13th level features are meant to further expand the variety of roles the Rogue can play outside combat, and only sometimes have a benefit in combat. Again, your 13th level feature doesn't do this at all.
17th level features are meant to make Sneak Attack more powerful and reliable when the Rogue plays its unique role. Your feature does a good job of this.
As a side note, I think allowing the Rogue to grapple with Acrobatics is a bad idea. the Rogue already has Expertise and Reliable Talent to make their grapples extremely reliable. Allowing them to grapple with Dex makes them basically unstoppable with no downside. Grappling with Strength, on the other hand, gives the Rogue an interesting choice: sacrifice stealth/AC/defense to have a stronger grapple/offense, or sacrifice the grapple/offense to have better stealth/AC/defense.
What I would recommend is something like this:
At 3rd level, you gain Ambush, which says "when you have advantage on melee attacks against a target, you also gain advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks to shove that target, grapple that target, or maintain your grapple on that target. You don't need advantage on melee attacks if another foe of your target is within 5 feet of it". This encourages you to maintain a Rogue-ish playstyle, and gives Dex rogue just a little help grappling.
Also at 3rd level, you gain Abduct, which says "when you have advantage on your Strength (Athletics) check to grapple a target and you successfully grapple that target, your target is Blinded, Deafened, Restrained, or unable to speak or make noise until the grapple ends". This allows you to play a disabler role instead of a striker role, and makes grappling useful outside normal combats, for things like kidnapping hostages and dragging watchmen away from their posts.
At 9th level, you gain Stalk, which says "when you are hidden and reveal yourself by leaving your hiding place, or by making a grapple or shove attempt, you remain hidden until the end of the turn. If you end the turn in a new hiding place, you remain hidden until discovered". In combat, this allows you to hide, then leave hiding to grapple while still having advantage (no need to flank!), and even return to hiding afterwards (whether you are hiding after a failed grapple attempt, or dragging a silenced target into the shadows with you). But more importantly, outside combat, this allows you to dart from hiding place to hiding place without being noticed, allowing you to sneak into places that other Rogues can't!
At 13th level, you gain Interrogate, which says "you can use your bonus action to make a Charisma (Intimidation) check contested by the Wisdom (Insight) check of a creature you are grappling, or of an ally of that creature who can see you. On a success, your target becomes Frightened of you until the start of your next turn. While Frightened in this way, your target is compelled to answer any questions that you ask it (though not necessarily honestly)." This is obviously useful outside combat, for interrogations and hostage situations. In combat, it also serves to help you prevent grappled creatures from escaping or their allies from approaching you.
Finally, at 17th level, you gain Stab & Grab, which says "when you use your action to attack wit ha light weapon, you can use your bonus action to grapple or shove, or vis versa". This allows you to truncate the two-round (grapple, then Sneak Attack) rhythm into a one-round affair.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
Abduct as written above would wreck spellcasters, but I like the idea of adding some soft control to your grapple.
Mechanically, it's clear that you want a rogue that uses grapples. But what is this thematically? A bruiser that manhandles its targets? A sneaky garrote user? A contortionist that grapples with all four limbs?
I would figure this out and build the subclass around that theme rather than just "rogue that grapples." At least one feature would support your theme in a different way rather than buffing shove/grapple.
Abduct as written above would wreck spellcasters, but I like the idea of adding some soft control to your grapple.
Yup! That's the point!
If you're getting into close range with someone who can potentially fly, teleport, and bombard you with spells from over a hundred feet away, if you're using what would normally be your dump stat (Strength) to get a hold of them, and if you need a circumstantial advantage (whether that's a flanking ally or literal advantage) to make that hold count, it had better count for a lot!
Mechanically, it's clear that you want a rogue that uses grapples. But what is this thematically? A bruiser that manhandles its targets? A sneaky garrote user? A contortionist that grapples with all four limbs?
I would figure this out and build the subclass around that theme rather than just "rogue that grapples."
I don't see why the theme can't be "a rogue who grapples".
I think classes and subclasses should be defined not by their goals, their personalities, their places in society, or anything like that, but exclusively by their methods. Race is what you are. Background is what you do. (Sub)class is how you do it.
Rogues, broadly, are people who do extraordinary things using underhanded tactics. This subclass of Rogue, specifically, is someone who grapples extraordinarily well using underhanded tactics.
This could be a upstanding member of a guard force who grapples threats to his patrons, subdues them, arrests them, and interrogates them unharmed.
Or this could be a criminal lowlife who shoves and grapples the enemies and victims of his gang, then extorts them, holds them for ransom, or kill them outright.
Or this could be a rugged animal/monster/bounty hunter who stalks big game, springs on it from hiding, and uses grapples to bring it home dead or alive.
Or this could be a wily wrangler who rides up to livestock on horseback (using the mount as a flanking partner!), wrestles them away from their riders/masters (or wrestles their riders/masters away from them), and ride off with them in tow.
Because at the end of the day, what distinguishes these characters isn't their methods (subclass), but only their goals, personalities, and places in society (background), and the finer details of their builds (weapons, statistics).
I think classes and subclasses should be defined not by their goals, their personalities, their places in society, or anything like that, but exclusively by their methods. Race is what you are. Background is what you do. (Sub)class is how you do it.
Sure, but methods is plural. What this comes across as is a one-trick pony.
No no official subclasses are designed around a single mechanic for several reasons:
In cases where that mechanic does not apply, you are effectively without a subclass
Every combat feels the same - how do I leverage this single mechanic that all my features rely on?
The other side of "flexible" is "boring." Having an actual theme draws players in. It gives you a conceptual foundation to build upon.
Every subclass is interesting to its designer. The work is making it interesting to other users. A theme can go a long way here.
Some players need that RP groundwork done for them. Give them a generic grappler and that's all they'll ever try to be. Give them some thematic hooks, and they'll grow into roleplaying. Yes, a seasoned roleplayer could play all of those themes with your subclass. But a seasoned roleplayer can make anything interesting. That's not who you need to design for.
When you only focus on mechanics, you end up feeling like a video game.
Of course a lot of this assumes that your goal is to put out a subclass that a lot of random people would like to use. That's not the only reason to homebrew and if that's not your goal feel free to ignore.
Abduct is incredibly broken, a rogue that dumps STR is just as good a grappler as a Paladin or Fighter that doesn't, even without any extra abilities because of Expertise - and grappling is already the most reliable thing you can do in combat because other than Humanoids and Giants, no monster has proficiency in Athletics and none of them have a way to get advantage on checks to avoid getting grappled. Grappling +. Shoving prone is extremely debilitating already for most monsters and they have very little chance of escaping unless they can teleport.
See that's the problem with both the proposed subclasses - Rogue is perfectly able to be a grappler right now while also being any of the other subclasses. A swashbuckler can already sneak attack a grappled foe 99.9% of the time, and they can already grapple & shove as well as most other characters simply by taking Expertise in Athletics (source: I played a swashbuckler with expertise in athletics), and they can also use their class features in other ways while having a strong theme.
I'd suggest instead focusing on a theme like: Tavern Brawler and build the subclass around that. e.g.
Everything is a Weapon 3rd level
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons, and they are considered finesse weapons for the purpose of your Sneak Attack. You are proficient in improvised weapons, and your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons deal 1d6 damage on a hit.
Brawler 3rd level
You can use your Cunning Action to attempt to Grapple or Shove. You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
Duck and Weave 9th level
When you are hidden and reveal yourself by leaving your hiding place, or by making a grapple or shove attempt, you remain hidden until the end of the turn. If you end the turn in a new hiding place, you remain hidden until discovered.
Giant Wrestler 9th level
You can attempt to grapple / shove creatures up to two sizes larger than you. However, these targets have advantage on checks to break free from your grapple.
Drunkard's Luck 13th level
When you fail a skill check or saving throw, you can reroll it, you must use the new roll. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you have use an Action to consume a pint of beer, ale, mead, or wine.
Rough Housing 17th level
When you successfully grapple a creature you can immediately make one attack using an unarmed strike or improvised weapon against it (no action required), if this attack hits it deals Sneak Attack damage unless you have already used your sneak attack this turn. When you make an attack of opportunity you can attempt to grapple instead of a melee weapon attack, you must have a free hand to make this grapple attempt.
Sure, but methods is plural. What this comes across as is a one-trick pony.
I honestly dont see what you mean. At 3rd level you get four tricks (Blind, Deafen, Restrain, silence). At 9th level you get two more (leave holding without being noticed. Return to hiding without needing a stealth check). At 13th level you get two more (frighten grappled creatures or their allies. Force frightened creatures to spill their beans). And at 17th level, one more (grapple as a bonus action). That's more tricks than any official Rogue subclass except the Arcane Trickster, and unlike the Arcane Trickster, there's no resource limiting how often you can use these tricks.
No official subclasses are designed around a single mechanic for several reasons:
In cases where that mechanic does not apply, you are effectively without a subclass
This is a legitimate issue with many mechanics. Thankfully, this is rarely an issue with graping. The DMG provides rules for grapplng oversized creatures, so the only time the grappling mechanic wont apply is against amorphous and intangible creatures like ghosts and fire elementals. The same way that all martials characters rely on magic items to face these creatures, I think its reasonable for a grappler to rely on magic items to grab hold of them.
Every combat feels the same - how do I leverage this single mechanic that all my features rely on?
"Every combat feels the same" is the default for martial characters in 5e. "Weapon attack" is the single mechanic that martials have to leverage. Most (sub)classes offer one extra mechanic to work on top of this, but that doesnt actually solve anything. Whether you make the same weapon attack every single turn, or you hide and then attack every single turn, you're doing the same thing every turn.
That's why right away, at 3rd level, I gave this subclass an alternative to (rather than a bonus on top of) their weapon attacks. And not just one alternative, but four. So in one combat, you can Disengage to duck past the front lines, and grapple the enemy spellcaster to slence them. But in another combat, you can grapple an enemy front liner and Dash to drag him to the sidelines where he cant hurt your allies. And in yet another combat, you can Dash to an enemy archer, and use your grapple to Blind them to prevent them from shooting your allies. Etc.
The other side of "flexible" is "boring." Having an actual theme draws players in. It gives you a conceptual foundation to buisld upon.
I simply cant relate. "Flexible" is the opposite of "boring" in my eyes. "Underhanded grappler" is an actual theme, and its flexiblity is what makes it fun to build on.
Some players need that RP groundwork done for them. Give them a generic grappler and that's all they'll ever try to be. Give them some thematic hooks, and they'll grow into roleplaying. Yes, a seasoned roleplayer could play all of those themes with your subclass. But a seasoned roleplayer can make anything interesting. That's not who you need to design for.
Flavour text is for these players. Just like official subclasses, this homebrew subclass could open with text saying something like "As a Wrangler, you've honed your skills in the art of assault. While other Rogues see a momentary advantage as an chance to strike a single blow, you see the opportunity to take a hostage, blind a witness, subdue a threat, or hitch a ride. Kidnappers, poachers, secret police, and ruffians are all examples of Rogues who practice this art."
When you only focus on mechanics, you end up feeling like a video game.
I don't think I've focused only on mechanics. I think I put forward mechanics that represent a specific theme: an underhanded grappler, such as a kidnapper, secret policeman or poacher. I think other mechanics (like background and skills) exist to further specify which theme a character is represented (e.g. Criminal for a kidnapper, Investigator for a secret policeman, Outlander for a poacher).
Abduct is incredibly broken, a rogue that dumps STR is just as good a grappler as a Paladin or Fighter that doesn't, even without any extra abilities because of Expertise - and grappling is already the most reliable thing you can do in combat because other than Humanoids and Giants, no monster has proficiency in Athletics and none of them have a way to get advantage on checks to avoid getting grappled. Grappling +. Shoving prone is extremely debilitating already for most monsters and they have very little chance of escaping unless they can teleport.
Yes, a Rogue is just as good a grappler as a Paladin, Fighter or such. That said, neither the Paladin nor Fighter is a grappling specialist: grappling is just a thing they can do. The goal with this subclass is to create a grappling specialist: someone who can grapple better than any non-specialist.
See that's the problem with both the proposed subclasses - Rogue is perfectly able to be a grappler right now while also being any of the other subclasses. A swashbuckler can already sneak attack a grappled foe 99.9% of the time, and they can already grapple & shove as well as most other characters simply by taking Expertise in Athletics (source: I played a swashbuckler with expertise in athletics), and they can also use their class features in other ways while having a strong theme.
Again, I'm aware that Rogues can already function as grapples, just like Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers, etc can all function as grapplers. But a no official Rogue subclass can be described as a specialist in grappling. There's little a Swashbuckler (for instance) does better than any other Rogue, or any other martial, in terms of grappling. Their grapples are just the setup for their real contribution—their Sneak Attack—rather than the contribution itself . Whereas I'm trying to make a Rogue whose grapple is the main contribution: an option both alternative to and equal to Sneak Attack, such that you have a real choice to make every turn.
Everything is a Weapon 3rd level
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons, and they are considered finesse weapons for the purpose of your Sneak Attack. You are proficient in improvised weapons, and your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons deal 1d6 damage on a hit.
Brawler 3rd level
You can use your Cunning Action to attempt to Grapple or Shove. You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
See, features like these are exactly what I'm trying to avoid. They represent the theme (travern brawler) fairly well, but they very little to expand the Rogue's playstyle (which is the #1 problem martial subclasses need to address).
Instead of new weapons that fundamentally alter your playstyle (e.g. whips for reach, or nets for restraint), or new properties to incentivise using weapons associated with your theme (like simply lifting the finesse requirement and seeing where Strength builds might go) you get reskinned versions of weapons you already had (unarmed strikes and improvised weapons which function almost identically to shortswords/scimitars), slotted into the build you already had.
And instead of alternative action options (Sneak Attack for damage vs Grapple for status effect) you get one option (Grapple for advantage and then Sneak Attack for damage), which is only marginally different from what you would be doing anyway (Hide/Flank for advantage & Sneak Attack for damage).
The end result is a Rogue that does roughly the same thing every turn, and whose only real choices (Hide vs Grapple, for instance) are dictated more by the circumstances ("am I close or am I far?") than by their strategic creativity.
I understand if Abduct, as I wrote it, is overpowered. I think it would be fine to nerf it. But what's crucial is that it offers several alternative actions, instead a bonus and a reskin on top of the action you would be taking anyway.
Giant Wrestler 9th level
You can attempt to grapple / shove creatures up to two sizes larger than you. However, these targets have advantage on checks to break free from your grapple.
If you aren't using the DMG's rules for grappling oversized creatures, I agree that a feature like this is basically necessary. Without it, the Rogue will have no subclass against huge monsters like giants and dragons.
But if you are using the DMG's rules, I think this feature is unnecessary, and even a bit detrimental. It obscures the Rogue's theme (underhanded tactics) by enabling them to literally wrestle giants with no circumstantial help, and it prevents players from scaling giants in true Shadow of the Colossus fashion.
Drunkard's Luck 13th level
When you fail a skill check or saving throw, you can reroll it, you must use the new roll. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you have use an Action to consume a pint of beer, ale, mead, or wine.
I really, really dislike this feature. The benefit (a reroll) is useful, not really fun, because it doesn't offer the player much in terms of new choices: it just saves them from bad luck. And the recharge method—drinking alcohol—locks the player into the theme of a tavern brawler or similar drunk. If a player wants to use this subclass to build any other sort of Roguish grappler, 13th level comes along to say "no".
I think it's a waste to lock interesting grappling mechanics behind such a narrow theme, when so many other themes would require those same mechanics.
Rough Housing 17th level
When you successfully grapple a creature you can immediately make one attack using an unarmed strike or improvised weapon against it (no action required), if this attack hits it deals Sneak Attack damage unless you have already used your sneak attack this turn. When you make an attack of opportunity you can attempt to grapple instead of a melee weapon attack, you must have a free hand to make this grapple attempt.
Being able to grapple as an opportunity attack is awesome! That's a really interesting choice, which expands the Rogue's playstyle options to include just a little area control. So props on that!
Getting a free Sneak Attack when you successfully grapple a creature is very strong, with that OA grapple in mind, but other Rogues already get double Sneak Attacks at 17th level, so I think it's probably fine.
Improvised weapons and unarmed strikes are considered finesse for you. The damage dice for both is now a d6.
As Galactic said, climbing Giants is cool. Perhaps Giant wrestler merely grants advantage on checks made to climb and stay on creatures. I think being on top of a creature is quite a safe location to get sneak attack in, especially if while climbing, you can grant advantage on checks to climb and stay on as a reaction. Reactions are valuable for rogues, so I don't think it's imbalanced.
I don't really like Drunkard's luck as is. I did like the interrogate ability though, so I will try a rewrite.
You may an action to intimidate a creature you are grappling. They must make a deception check versus your intimidation, or all deception checks the creature makes have disadvantage, and all Insight checks made against the creature have advantage until the grapple ends.
As Galactic said, climbing Giants is cool. Perhaps Giant wrestler merely grants advantage on checks made to climb and stay on creatures. I think being on top of a creature is quite a safe location to get sneak attack in, especially if while climbing, you can grant advantage on checks to climb and stay on as a reaction. Reactions are valuable for rogues, so I don't think it's imbalanced.
Reactions are usually taken outside of your turn, in response to a trigger. Spending your reaction on your turn, at will, to gain advantage is strange. Maybe a bonus action would be more appropriate.
But more fundamentally, the Rogue has Expertise and Reliable Talent, and Athletics (the skill used to climb giants and such) is the same skill that the Rogue is using to grapple. So I don't think the Rogue needs this advantage in the first place.
I would personally just scrap Giant Wrestler entirely and replace it with something that lets the Rogue do something new, rather than be better at something old.
You may an action to intimidate a creature you are grappling. They must make a deception check versus your intimidation, or all deception checks the creature makes have disadvantage, and all Insight checks made against the creature have advantage until the grapple ends.
So you use an action to make an Intimidate check vs your target's Deception check
On a success, your target suffers disadvantage on Deception checks for the duration of your grapple, and you have advantage on Insight checks for the duration of your grapple.
I think advantage OR disadvantage is reasonable, but both is a bit much, since (again) the Rogue already has Expertise and Reliable Talent. Or better yet, rather than advantage or disadvantage, I'd recommend an effect that you can't normally guarantee, like "your target is compelled to answer your questions (though still capable of lying)" or "your target is incapable of lying (though still capable of being vague or quiet)". Again, this is so that you're gaining a truly new ability, rather than getting better odds at doing something you can always do.
The #1 problem with martial characters is spending round after round, level after level, doing the same things. I think as much as possible, martial (sub)classes need to offer truly new options.
My wording was poor. I meant granting advantage to an ally to stay on on climbed creature as a reaction. This is like you are helping them stay on. My intention was for easier sneak attack, but apparently climbing a creature grants advantage on attacks.
Compelled answering actually makes sense, as long as it isn't necessarily the truth. If someone wants to go full investigator, just get expertise in Insight.
My wording was poor. I meant granting advantage to an ally to stay on on climbed creature as a reaction. This is like you are helping them stay on. My intention was for easier sneak attack, but apparently climbing a creature grants advantage on attacks.
Compelled answering actually makes sense, as long as it isn't necessarily the truth. If someone wants to go full investigator, just get expertise in Insight.
As a DM I dislike "compelled to answer" features as it requires me to invent so many lies, and then come up with something incredibly clever if they also toss on Zone of Truth so the enemy can technically tell the truth but still be misleading. It also doesn't make much logical sense - forcing someone to answer is incredibly difficult without magic. Plus it plays into the romanticization of torture as actually being effective when it is not.
I agree about the climbing on giant creatures, I really wish that was a core rule rather than optional rule so this subclass could build on it.
As a DM I dislike "compelled to answer" features as it requires me to invent so many lies, and then come up with something incredibly clever if they also toss on Zone of Truth so the enemy can technically tell the truth but still be misleading. It also doesn't make much logical sense - forcing someone to answer is incredibly difficult without magic. Plus it plays into the romanticization of torture as actually being effective when it is not.
I agree about the climbing on giant creatures, I really wish that was a core rule rather than optional rule so this subclass could build on it.
Torture is effective though. It doesn't work like Hollywood, but there is certainly a working method.
As a DM I dislike "compelled to answer" features as it requires me to invent so many lies, and then come up with something incredibly clever if they also toss on Zone of Truth so the enemy can technically tell the truth but still be misleading. It also doesn't make much logical sense - forcing someone to answer is incredibly difficult without magic. Plus it plays into the romanticization of torture as actually being effective when it is not.
I agree about the climbing on giant creatures, I really wish that was a core rule rather than optional rule so this subclass could build on it.
Torture is effective though. It doesn't work like Hollywood, but there is certainly a working method.
There are many studies including ones by intelligence agencies that it isn't. You may be able to get some response out of the victim but it is very likely to be a lie, or simply wrong (human memory is unreliable at the best of time, even more so when distressed). It's not a productive thing to do, as any information you get has to be confirmed through other independent methods at which point why did you waste all that time torturing them rather than gathering those reliable independent verifications in the first place?
At third level when you pick this subclass, you gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you can Sneak Attack any grappled foe.
Also at third level, you may use acrobatics to grapple foes.
At ninth level, you may grapple or shove as a bonus action.
Also at ninth level, you can shove using acrobatics.
At thirteenth level, whenever you grapple a foe, they are knocked prone.
At seventeenth level, you gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; upon grappling a foe, you Sneak Attack.
no
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/forum-games/181058-the-court
Rogue archetypes all follow a certain rhythm.
As a side note, I think allowing the Rogue to grapple with Acrobatics is a bad idea. the Rogue already has Expertise and Reliable Talent to make their grapples extremely reliable. Allowing them to grapple with Dex makes them basically unstoppable with no downside. Grappling with Strength, on the other hand, gives the Rogue an interesting choice: sacrifice stealth/AC/defense to have a stronger grapple/offense, or sacrifice the grapple/offense to have better stealth/AC/defense.
What I would recommend is something like this:
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
Abduct as written above would wreck spellcasters, but I like the idea of adding some soft control to your grapple.
Mechanically, it's clear that you want a rogue that uses grapples. But what is this thematically? A bruiser that manhandles its targets? A sneaky garrote user? A contortionist that grapples with all four limbs?
I would figure this out and build the subclass around that theme rather than just "rogue that grapples." At least one feature would support your theme in a different way rather than buffing shove/grapple.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yup! That's the point!
If you're getting into close range with someone who can potentially fly, teleport, and bombard you with spells from over a hundred feet away, if you're using what would normally be your dump stat (Strength) to get a hold of them, and if you need a circumstantial advantage (whether that's a flanking ally or literal advantage) to make that hold count, it had better count for a lot!
I don't see why the theme can't be "a rogue who grapples".
I think classes and subclasses should be defined not by their goals, their personalities, their places in society, or anything like that, but exclusively by their methods. Race is what you are. Background is what you do. (Sub)class is how you do it.
Rogues, broadly, are people who do extraordinary things using underhanded tactics. This subclass of Rogue, specifically, is someone who grapples extraordinarily well using underhanded tactics.
Because at the end of the day, what distinguishes these characters isn't their methods (subclass), but only their goals, personalities, and places in society (background), and the finer details of their builds (weapons, statistics).
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
Restrained may be too powerful of a condition to inflict. Otherwise I like this implementation of grappler rogue far better than mine.
no
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/forum-games/181058-the-court
Sure, but methods is plural. What this comes across as is a one-trick pony.
No no official subclasses are designed around a single mechanic for several reasons:
Of course a lot of this assumes that your goal is to put out a subclass that a lot of random people would like to use. That's not the only reason to homebrew and if that's not your goal feel free to ignore.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Abduct is incredibly broken, a rogue that dumps STR is just as good a grappler as a Paladin or Fighter that doesn't, even without any extra abilities because of Expertise - and grappling is already the most reliable thing you can do in combat because other than Humanoids and Giants, no monster has proficiency in Athletics and none of them have a way to get advantage on checks to avoid getting grappled. Grappling +. Shoving prone is extremely debilitating already for most monsters and they have very little chance of escaping unless they can teleport.
See that's the problem with both the proposed subclasses - Rogue is perfectly able to be a grappler right now while also being any of the other subclasses. A swashbuckler can already sneak attack a grappled foe 99.9% of the time, and they can already grapple & shove as well as most other characters simply by taking Expertise in Athletics (source: I played a swashbuckler with expertise in athletics), and they can also use their class features in other ways while having a strong theme.
I'd suggest instead focusing on a theme like: Tavern Brawler and build the subclass around that. e.g.
Everything is a Weapon
3rd level
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons, and they are considered finesse weapons for the purpose of your Sneak Attack. You are proficient in improvised weapons, and your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons deal 1d6 damage on a hit.
Brawler
3rd level
You can use your Cunning Action to attempt to Grapple or Shove. You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
Duck and Weave
9th level
When you are hidden and reveal yourself by leaving your hiding place, or by making a grapple or shove attempt, you remain hidden until the end of the turn. If you end the turn in a new hiding place, you remain hidden until discovered.
Giant Wrestler
9th level
You can attempt to grapple / shove creatures up to two sizes larger than you. However, these targets have advantage on checks to break free from your grapple.
Drunkard's Luck
13th level
When you fail a skill check or saving throw, you can reroll it, you must use the new roll. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you have use an Action to consume a pint of beer, ale, mead, or wine.
Rough Housing
17th level
When you successfully grapple a creature you can immediately make one attack using an unarmed strike or improvised weapon against it (no action required), if this attack hits it deals Sneak Attack damage unless you have already used your sneak attack this turn. When you make an attack of opportunity you can attempt to grapple instead of a melee weapon attack, you must have a free hand to make this grapple attempt.
I honestly dont see what you mean. At 3rd level you get four tricks (Blind, Deafen, Restrain, silence). At 9th level you get two more (leave holding without being noticed. Return to hiding without needing a stealth check). At 13th level you get two more (frighten grappled creatures or their allies. Force frightened creatures to spill their beans). And at 17th level, one more (grapple as a bonus action). That's more tricks than any official Rogue subclass except the Arcane Trickster, and unlike the Arcane Trickster, there's no resource limiting how often you can use these tricks.
This is a legitimate issue with many mechanics. Thankfully, this is rarely an issue with graping. The DMG provides rules for grapplng oversized creatures, so the only time the grappling mechanic wont apply is against amorphous and intangible creatures like ghosts and fire elementals. The same way that all martials characters rely on magic items to face these creatures, I think its reasonable for a grappler to rely on magic items to grab hold of them.
"Every combat feels the same" is the default for martial characters in 5e. "Weapon attack" is the single mechanic that martials have to leverage. Most (sub)classes offer one extra mechanic to work on top of this, but that doesnt actually solve anything. Whether you make the same weapon attack every single turn, or you hide and then attack every single turn, you're doing the same thing every turn.
That's why right away, at 3rd level, I gave this subclass an alternative to (rather than a bonus on top of) their weapon attacks. And not just one alternative, but four. So in one combat, you can Disengage to duck past the front lines, and grapple the enemy spellcaster to slence them. But in another combat, you can grapple an enemy front liner and Dash to drag him to the sidelines where he cant hurt your allies. And in yet another combat, you can Dash to an enemy archer, and use your grapple to Blind them to prevent them from shooting your allies. Etc.
I simply cant relate. "Flexible" is the opposite of "boring" in my eyes. "Underhanded grappler" is an actual theme, and its flexiblity is what makes it fun to build on.
Flavour text is for these players. Just like official subclasses, this homebrew subclass could open with text saying something like "As a Wrangler, you've honed your skills in the art of assault. While other Rogues see a momentary advantage as an chance to strike a single blow, you see the opportunity to take a hostage, blind a witness, subdue a threat, or hitch a ride. Kidnappers, poachers, secret police, and ruffians are all examples of Rogues who practice this art."
I don't think I've focused only on mechanics. I think I put forward mechanics that represent a specific theme: an underhanded grappler, such as a kidnapper, secret policeman or poacher. I think other mechanics (like background and skills) exist to further specify which theme a character is represented (e.g. Criminal for a kidnapper, Investigator for a secret policeman, Outlander for a poacher).
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
Yes, a Rogue is just as good a grappler as a Paladin, Fighter or such. That said, neither the Paladin nor Fighter is a grappling specialist: grappling is just a thing they can do. The goal with this subclass is to create a grappling specialist: someone who can grapple better than any non-specialist.
Again, I'm aware that Rogues can already function as grapples, just like Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers, etc can all function as grapplers. But a no official Rogue subclass can be described as a specialist in grappling. There's little a Swashbuckler (for instance) does better than any other Rogue, or any other martial, in terms of grappling. Their grapples are just the setup for their real contribution—their Sneak Attack—rather than the contribution itself . Whereas I'm trying to make a Rogue whose grapple is the main contribution: an option both alternative to and equal to Sneak Attack, such that you have a real choice to make every turn.
See, features like these are exactly what I'm trying to avoid. They represent the theme (travern brawler) fairly well, but they very little to expand the Rogue's playstyle (which is the #1 problem martial subclasses need to address).
Instead of new weapons that fundamentally alter your playstyle (e.g. whips for reach, or nets for restraint), or new properties to incentivise using weapons associated with your theme (like simply lifting the finesse requirement and seeing where Strength builds might go) you get reskinned versions of weapons you already had (unarmed strikes and improvised weapons which function almost identically to shortswords/scimitars), slotted into the build you already had.
And instead of alternative action options (Sneak Attack for damage vs Grapple for status effect) you get one option (Grapple for advantage and then Sneak Attack for damage), which is only marginally different from what you would be doing anyway (Hide/Flank for advantage & Sneak Attack for damage).
The end result is a Rogue that does roughly the same thing every turn, and whose only real choices (Hide vs Grapple, for instance) are dictated more by the circumstances ("am I close or am I far?") than by their strategic creativity.
I understand if Abduct, as I wrote it, is overpowered. I think it would be fine to nerf it. But what's crucial is that it offers several alternative actions, instead a bonus and a reskin on top of the action you would be taking anyway.
If you aren't using the DMG's rules for grappling oversized creatures, I agree that a feature like this is basically necessary. Without it, the Rogue will have no subclass against huge monsters like giants and dragons.
But if you are using the DMG's rules, I think this feature is unnecessary, and even a bit detrimental. It obscures the Rogue's theme (underhanded tactics) by enabling them to literally wrestle giants with no circumstantial help, and it prevents players from scaling giants in true Shadow of the Colossus fashion.
I really, really dislike this feature. The benefit (a reroll) is useful, not really fun, because it doesn't offer the player much in terms of new choices: it just saves them from bad luck. And the recharge method—drinking alcohol—locks the player into the theme of a tavern brawler or similar drunk. If a player wants to use this subclass to build any other sort of Roguish grappler, 13th level comes along to say "no".
I think it's a waste to lock interesting grappling mechanics behind such a narrow theme, when so many other themes would require those same mechanics.
Being able to grapple as an opportunity attack is awesome! That's a really interesting choice, which expands the Rogue's playstyle options to include just a little area control. So props on that!
Getting a free Sneak Attack when you successfully grapple a creature is very strong, with that OA grapple in mind, but other Rogues already get double Sneak Attacks at 17th level, so I think it's probably fine.
Overall, cool feature!
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
A few suggestions.
Everything is a Weapon Rewording
Improvised weapons and unarmed strikes are considered finesse for you. The damage dice for both is now a d6.
As Galactic said, climbing Giants is cool. Perhaps Giant wrestler merely grants advantage on checks made to climb and stay on creatures. I think being on top of a creature is quite a safe location to get sneak attack in, especially if while climbing, you can grant advantage on checks to climb and stay on as a reaction. Reactions are valuable for rogues, so I don't think it's imbalanced.
I don't really like Drunkard's luck as is. I did like the interrogate ability though, so I will try a rewrite.
You may an action to intimidate a creature you are grappling. They must make a deception check versus your intimidation, or all deception checks the creature makes have disadvantage, and all Insight checks made against the creature have advantage until the grapple ends.
Rough housing and Brawler are fine.
no
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/forum-games/181058-the-court
Reactions are usually taken outside of your turn, in response to a trigger. Spending your reaction on your turn, at will, to gain advantage is strange. Maybe a bonus action would be more appropriate.
But more fundamentally, the Rogue has Expertise and Reliable Talent, and Athletics (the skill used to climb giants and such) is the same skill that the Rogue is using to grapple. So I don't think the Rogue needs this advantage in the first place.
I would personally just scrap Giant Wrestler entirely and replace it with something that lets the Rogue do something new, rather than be better at something old.
So you use an action to make an Intimidate check vs your target's Deception check
On a success, your target suffers disadvantage on Deception checks for the duration of your grapple, and you have advantage on Insight checks for the duration of your grapple.
I think advantage OR disadvantage is reasonable, but both is a bit much, since (again) the Rogue already has Expertise and Reliable Talent. Or better yet, rather than advantage or disadvantage, I'd recommend an effect that you can't normally guarantee, like "your target is compelled to answer your questions (though still capable of lying)" or "your target is incapable of lying (though still capable of being vague or quiet)". Again, this is so that you're gaining a truly new ability, rather than getting better odds at doing something you can always do.
The #1 problem with martial characters is spending round after round, level after level, doing the same things. I think as much as possible, martial (sub)classes need to offer truly new options.
My homebrew. Let me know what you think and what I can add!
My wording was poor. I meant granting advantage to an ally to stay on on climbed creature as a reaction. This is like you are helping them stay on. My intention was for easier sneak attack, but apparently climbing a creature grants advantage on attacks.
Compelled answering actually makes sense, as long as it isn't necessarily the truth. If someone wants to go full investigator, just get expertise in Insight.
no
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/forum-games/181058-the-court
As a DM I dislike "compelled to answer" features as it requires me to invent so many lies, and then come up with something incredibly clever if they also toss on Zone of Truth so the enemy can technically tell the truth but still be misleading. It also doesn't make much logical sense - forcing someone to answer is incredibly difficult without magic. Plus it plays into the romanticization of torture as actually being effective when it is not.
I agree about the climbing on giant creatures, I really wish that was a core rule rather than optional rule so this subclass could build on it.
Torture is effective though. It doesn't work like Hollywood, but there is certainly a working method.
no
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/forum-games/181058-the-court
There are many studies including ones by intelligence agencies that it isn't. You may be able to get some response out of the victim but it is very likely to be a lie, or simply wrong (human memory is unreliable at the best of time, even more so when distressed). It's not a productive thing to do, as any information you get has to be confirmed through other independent methods at which point why did you waste all that time torturing them rather than gathering those reliable independent verifications in the first place?