Short form: What is the use of the Dual Wielder General feat?
Long form: I've been reading up on the rules for 2024 in regards to attacking with a weapon in each hand. One detail that I noticed is that there is no separate entry for "Two-Weapon Fighting," unlike the 2014 ruleset that does include a section entitled "Two-Weapon Fighting" (PHB 2014 p.195). So in order to fight with two weapons, one would need to use weapons with the Light weapon property.
However, the text of the Dual Wielder General feat reads almost exactly as the Light property.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Dual Wielder
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding.When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Dual Wielder doesn't add much to the character sheet other than the Ability Score Increase and Quick Draw. Sure, Dual Wielder can allow you to use a battleax or rapier or trident in the offhand, but that doesn't seem to be worth spending a whole feat on. If you want to increase an ability score, then use the Ability Score Improvement feat. Quick Draw is still kinda meh.
Two-Weapon Fighting does add a concrete bonus to offhand attacks and is unambiguous as a mechanic.
Dual Wielder feat doesn't seem to be worth using a whole feat. I can see min-maxers justifying the feat by slightly increasing damage potential, and mechanics-heavy campaigns could see some usefulness in Quick Draw, but it seems that I can still easily get by with just Two-Weapon Fighting and a couple Light weapons, and then use the feat for something more useful.
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
Alright, so in order to make the Dual Wielder feat useful, you need to use a weapon with the Nick weapon property. And in order to use the Nick weapon property, you need to have Weapon Mastery. Currently, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are the classes that possess the Weapon Mastery class feature, which means they are the only classes that would benefit from the Dual Wielder feat. Do I got that correct?
Alright, so in order to make the Dual Wielder feat useful, you need to use a weapon with the Nick weapon property. And in order to use the Nick weapon property, you need to have Weapon Mastery. Currently, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are the classes that possess the Weapon Mastery class feature, which means they are the only classes that would benefit from the Dual Wielder feat. Do I got that correct?
I partially agree. Dual Wielder shines when combined with Nick, but I also find it interesting on its own for any class:
Ability Score Increase (Strength or Dexterity)
You can make the BA extra attack with a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property.
You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
You don't need Nick Mastery to benefit from the Dual Wielder feat, you still get all the benefits wether you use one or not. But you need at least one Light weapon to benefit from Enhanced Dual Wielding though.
Alright, so in order to make the Dual Wielder feat useful, you need to use a weapon with the Nick weapon property. And in order to use the Nick weapon property, you need to have Weapon Mastery. Currently, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are the classes that possess the Weapon Mastery class feature, which means they are the only classes that would benefit from the Dual Wielder feat. Do I got that correct?
Yes, you have it right. If you're not a martial class, Dual Wielder is probably not worth the price. All the casters will have to rely on their fireballs and the like. It's quite sad, really.
(Well, you could use the Weapon Master feat to take advantage of Nick mastery, but that's a lot of character building resources to spend.)
Alright, so in order to make the Dual Wielder feat useful, you need to use a weapon with the Nick weapon property. And in order to use the Nick weapon property, you need to have Weapon Mastery. Currently, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are the classes that possess the Weapon Mastery class feature, which means they are the only classes that would benefit from the Dual Wielder feat. Do I got that correct?
Yes and no.
To make the most of it, you need to have access to the Weapon Mastery property with a Light Weapon with Nick. That can give you 3+ Attacks.
However, if you don't have Weapon Mastery, when you take the Attack action on your turn with a Light weapon, Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a choice:
Attack with a different Light weapon (the Light property also gives you this option).
Attack with a different weapon that is not Light and does not have the Two-Handed property (the Light property does not allow this).
So, attacking with two different short swords doesn't require the Dual Wielder feat, but attacking with a Short Sword and following up with a longsword, rapier, or whip does require it.
The feat allows the two-weapon fighting characters to pick up improved Bonus Action attacks, adding interesting properties such as reach (Whip) or increasing the damage die. Increasing the damage die from d6 to d8, on average, adds +1 damage per hit (+ 1.34 if you have the Savage Attacker feat or another source of damage rerolls).
For comical effect, if you are mounted and have the feat, you technically can attack with a Light weapon and then follow up with a Lance attack (it loses the Two-Handed property when mounted). I wouldn't allow it though, nor would I allow using a Versatile weapon two-handed (which is also technically allowed).
Main question: On level 10, a World Tree Barbarian gains Battering Roots with which attacking reach gets 10ft greater with Heavy or Versatile weapons, and can activate PUSH or TOPPLE with these weapons in addition to a different mastery property. The idea I have is that an hit with a handaxe (=light) gives VEX (to give me advantage on next attack roll), and after that hit it with the Battleaxe to try to TOPPLE AND PUSH the enemy as Bonus Action... This is possible by taking the Dual Wielding feat, right?
Extra question about having the Dual Wielder Feat: Would it be allowed to start the turn wielding both the hand- and battleaxe, then throw the handaxe for VEX from 10ft as the Attack Action, then use the Bonus Action attack with the Battleaxe to attack from 10ft with the Battering Roots extra range with versatile weapons to PUSH the enemy 10ft away and probably even TOPPLE it, ánd do 1d10 instead of 1d8 damage with the battleaxe attack because I have both hands free because I threw the handaxe away. The distance is now 20ft of an enemy who is possible PRONE and maybe I can get out of reach with remaining movement speed... What do you think?
Main question: On level 10, a World Tree Barbarian gains Battering Roots with which attacking reach gets 10ft greater with Heavy or Versatile weapons, and can activate PUSH or TOPPLE with these weapons in addition to a different mastery property. The idea I have is that an hit with a handaxe (=light) gives VEX (to give me advantage on next attack roll), and after that hit it with the Battleaxe to try to TOPPLE AND PUSH the enemy as Bonus Action... This is possible by taking the Dual Wielding feat, right?
Well, if you're level 10, you have Extra Attack, which means you can do that with the two attacks in your Attack action; you don't need Dual Wielder for that. But if you wanted to make an additional attack as a bonus action after doing that, you'd need Dual Wielder (because the Battleaxe isn't Light).
Extra question about having the Dual Wielder Feat: Would it be allowed to start the turn wielding both the hand- and battleaxe, then throw the handaxe for VEX from 10ft as the Attack Action, then use the Bonus Action attack with the Battleaxe to attack from 10ft with the Battering Roots extra range with versatile weapons to PUSH the enemy 10ft away and probably even TOPPLE it, ánd do 1d10 instead of 1d8 damage with the battleaxe attack because I have both hands free because I threw the handaxe away. The distance is now 20ft of an enemy who is possible PRONE and maybe I can get out of reach with remaining movement speed... What do you think?
Yes, though keep in mind attacks against Prone targets from more than 5 feet away have disadvantage, so knocking people Prone doesn't always synergize well with extended reach weapons and abilities.
Thank you! Extra Attack is a good point. Gives maybe the possibility to also SLOW or SAP the target too before or after the VEX with one other weapon (Barbarians have 2 to 4 weapon masteries):
Make an Attack action with SLOW (Mace, Spear, Flail, Longsword, Morningstar, War Pick) or SAP (Club, Javelin, Light Crossbow, Sling, Whip, Longbow, Musket)
Stow this weapon and draw the handaxe and battleaxe using Quick Draw of the Dual Wielder Feat:
Make the Extra attack with the light handaxe which gives VEX on hit, this gives advantage on:
the Bonus Action attack with the Battle Axe which probably TOPPLEs the target prone AND also simultanously PUSHes the target 10ft away with the World Tree Subclass
If all attack rolls succeeds, you now have a SLOWed or SAPped target, probably lying prone, 10ft (to 20ft away from Battering Roots reach) away from you:
You probably can easily walk out of reach from it's melee attacks if target is slowed by SLOW
If hit by a SAP weapon, the target has disadvantage on it's next attack roll, making it less a threat for you or others
If target failed the CONsav, it lays prone and others who can reach the target get advantage on melee attacks on it
Thank you! Extra Attack is a good point. Gives maybe the possibility to also SLOW or SAP the target too before or after the VEX with one other weapon (Barbarians have 2 to 4 weapon masteries):
Make an Attack action with SLOW (Mace, Spear, Flail, Longsword, Morningstar, War Pick) or SAP (Club, Javelin, Light Crossbow, Sling, Whip, Longbow, Musket)
Barbarians can only take weapon masteries with melee weapons, but otherwise, yes.
If target failed the CONsav, it lays prone and others who can reach the target get advantage on melee attacks on it
(but yes, disadvantage on ranged attacks)
Just for clarity, the rule is that attacks against Prone creatures within 5 feet have advantage, and attacks from more than 5 feet away have disadvantage. Whether they're melee or ranged attacks is irrelevant. That's why I mentioned it — attacking a Prone target from 20 feet away always has disadvantage, even if it's a melee attack with a 20-foot Reach.
Short form: What is the use of the Dual Wielder General feat?
Long form: I've been reading up on the rules for 2024 in regards to attacking with a weapon in each hand. One detail that I noticed is that there is no separate entry for "Two-Weapon Fighting," unlike the 2014 ruleset that does include a section entitled "Two-Weapon Fighting" (PHB 2014 p.195). So in order to fight with two weapons, one would need to use weapons with the Light weapon property.
However, the text of the Dual Wielder General feat reads almost exactly as the Light property.
Dual Wielder doesn't add much to the character sheet other than the Ability Score Increase and Quick Draw. Sure, Dual Wielder can allow you to use a battleax or rapier or trident in the offhand, but that doesn't seem to be worth spending a whole feat on. If you want to increase an ability score, then use the Ability Score Improvement feat. Quick Draw is still kinda meh.
Two-Weapon Fighting does add a concrete bonus to offhand attacks and is unambiguous as a mechanic.
Dual Wielder feat doesn't seem to be worth using a whole feat. I can see min-maxers justifying the feat by slightly increasing damage potential, and mechanics-heavy campaigns could see some usefulness in Quick Draw, but it seems that I can still easily get by with just Two-Weapon Fighting and a couple Light weapons, and then use the feat for something more useful.
What are your thoughts?
There are some related threads to this question (see below), with examples and different scenarios.
In one of the threads (Dual wield, Nick and light weapons), there's an explanation that I think is pretty good:
I also recommend this video to you:
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Alright, so in order to make the Dual Wielder feat useful, you need to use a weapon with the Nick weapon property. And in order to use the Nick weapon property, you need to have Weapon Mastery. Currently, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are the classes that possess the Weapon Mastery class feature, which means they are the only classes that would benefit from the Dual Wielder feat. Do I got that correct?
I partially agree. Dual Wielder shines when combined with Nick, but I also find it interesting on its own for any class:
You don't need Nick Mastery to benefit from the Dual Wielder feat, you still get all the benefits wether you use one or not. But you need at least one Light weapon to benefit from Enhanced Dual Wielding though.
Yes, you have it right. If you're not a martial class, Dual Wielder is probably not worth the price. All the casters will have to rely on their fireballs and the like. It's quite sad, really.
(Well, you could use the Weapon Master feat to take advantage of Nick mastery, but that's a lot of character building resources to spend.)
Yes and no.
To make the most of it, you need to have access to the Weapon Mastery property with a Light Weapon with Nick. That can give you 3+ Attacks.
However, if you don't have Weapon Mastery, when you take the Attack action on your turn with a Light weapon, Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a choice:
So, attacking with two different short swords doesn't require the Dual Wielder feat, but attacking with a Short Sword and following up with a longsword, rapier, or whip does require it.
The feat allows the two-weapon fighting characters to pick up improved Bonus Action attacks, adding interesting properties such as reach (Whip) or increasing the damage die. Increasing the damage die from d6 to d8, on average, adds +1 damage per hit (+ 1.34 if you have the Savage Attacker feat or another source of damage rerolls).
For comical effect, if you are mounted and have the feat, you technically can attack with a Light weapon and then follow up with a Lance attack (it loses the Two-Handed property when mounted). I wouldn't allow it though, nor would I allow using a Versatile weapon two-handed (which is also technically allowed).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Main question: On level 10, a World Tree Barbarian gains Battering Roots with which attacking reach gets 10ft greater with Heavy or Versatile weapons, and can activate PUSH or TOPPLE with these weapons in addition to a different mastery property. The idea I have is that an hit with a handaxe (=light) gives VEX (to give me advantage on next attack roll), and after that hit it with the Battleaxe to try to TOPPLE AND PUSH the enemy as Bonus Action... This is possible by taking the Dual Wielding feat, right?
Extra question about having the Dual Wielder Feat: Would it be allowed to start the turn wielding both the hand- and battleaxe, then throw the handaxe for VEX from 10ft as the Attack Action, then use the Bonus Action attack with the Battleaxe to attack from 10ft with the Battering Roots extra range with versatile weapons to PUSH the enemy 10ft away and probably even TOPPLE it, ánd do 1d10 instead of 1d8 damage with the battleaxe attack because I have both hands free because I threw the handaxe away. The distance is now 20ft of an enemy who is possible PRONE and maybe I can get out of reach with remaining movement speed... What do you think?
Well, if you're level 10, you have Extra Attack, which means you can do that with the two attacks in your Attack action; you don't need Dual Wielder for that. But if you wanted to make an additional attack as a bonus action after doing that, you'd need Dual Wielder (because the Battleaxe isn't Light).
Yes, though keep in mind attacks against Prone targets from more than 5 feet away have disadvantage, so knocking people Prone doesn't always synergize well with extended reach weapons and abilities.
pronouns: he/she/they
Thank you! Extra Attack is a good point. Gives maybe the possibility to also SLOW or SAP the target too before or after the VEX with one other weapon (Barbarians have 2 to 4 weapon masteries):
If all attack rolls succeeds, you now have a SLOWed or SAPped target, probably lying prone, 10ft (to 20ft away from Battering Roots reach) away from you:
Barbarians can only take weapon masteries with melee weapons, but otherwise, yes.
Just for clarity, the rule is that attacks against Prone creatures within 5 feet have advantage, and attacks from more than 5 feet away have disadvantage. Whether they're melee or ranged attacks is irrelevant. That's why I mentioned it — attacking a Prone target from 20 feet away always has disadvantage, even if it's a melee attack with a 20-foot Reach.
pronouns: he/she/they