An interesting experiment, but the Headband of Intellect required attunement, which the steel defender doesn't seem to be capable of.
If you were able to make it fully sentient then I expect it would become an NPC under the control of the DM. ☺️
Oh i Thought he can? didnt Jeremy Crawford said on sage advice:" A D&D creature can use magic items, unless its anatomy or a rule precludes such use. For example, the steel defender is a creature that can reasonably use many different magic items."
plus
Attunement. Some Magic Items require a creature to form a bond with them before their magical properties can be used. This bond is called attunement, and certain items have a prerequisite for it. If the prerequisite is a class, a creature must be a member of that class to attune to the item.
What would not allow a steel defender to attune to a magic item? He is a creature, his action is only limted in combat.
" "In combat", the steel defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take one of the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action."
So to attune the steel defender must focus for 1 h . Is there any rule that says he cant do that? since he is under the command from the artificer he could command him to focus on the magic item? but maybe iam wrong on that.
I think a lot of this goes into DM discretion. But for balance sake I wouldn't allow the Steel Defender to attune to magic items, since it essentially gives the Artificer, a class that already gains extra attunements, the ability to attune 3 extra items that you can tap into whenever you order your Steel Defender to use them. My justification would be that the Steel Defender doesn't have enough intelligence to attune to an item the way a fully sentient creature is able to.
That said... I would allow the headband of intellect specifically to be used the way you're describing, because it sounds fun for roleplay purposes. I would, however, require that installing it into the Steel Defender destroys the headband, and also require a skill check of some kind over at least a day of work to successfully install it as, essentially, a magic CPU. Plus if your steel defender gets destroyed, creating another one wouldn't include the intelligence boost from the headband. But that's all homebrew... and honestly, the artificer in general seems to encourage a good amount of homebrewing with their inventions and all.
That is interesting... I suppose, if you're going by RAW, the Steel Defender should be able to attune to magical items, but isn't capable of actively "using" them. Like... if you gave it a wand of Fireballs, it would be unable to use the wand to cast fireball. But any item with a passive effect would be valid. Still, I think it's a bad idea for a DM to allow it... but there's also the question of... just how many magical items would a party be receiving that the Steel Defender is the best party member to give a rare magical item to? In that sense it's kind of a problem that solves itself... has the potential for abuse, but attempting to abuse it is, for the most part, less useful than just giving the items to one of the more capable party members in the first place.
I like Transmorpher's rule, but I'd probably rule that once your steel defender achieves sentience, it's not a steel defender anymore. It's an NPC with its own thoughts and motivations and the artificer will need to build a new steel defender to use in battle.
When you give a companion a certain level of power and autonomy, it ceases to be a servant and instead becomes an ally.
Oh sure, but that's still one less magical item that you could be using for something else. You're essentially depriving yourself of one of your valuable infusions each day just to have a steel defender that can chat with you and maybe take care of history checks outside of combat. Maybe you make it better at surviving INT saves. But it's still largely a roleplay thing.
High intelligence does not equal sentience. Just because you have an ipad instead of an apple II doesn't mean the ipad is sentient. Your steel defender would simply be better at streaming youtube clips and accessing your downloaded copy of 'Tusk Love'.
But that has nothing to do with Data or Ultron. Both of display the true hallmark of sentience, found in any two year old child:
The ability to say "NO! I Don't Want to!" .
(I am not talking about a pre-programmed response, but an emergent phenomena. )
This is not about the ability to do math, recognize patterns (either general or specific). It is about a sense of self and desire that has nothing to do with logic.
A sufficiently complex brain (minimal intelligence) is necessary but it is not sufficient for this to develop. In truth, I would suspect the quality D&D calls Charisma has more to do with it than Intelligence.
Keep in mind that the Steel Defender starts with an Int of 4, (also Charisma of 6) and it is possible for a human to have an Int of 3 (and a Charisma of 3). The Steel Defender already has enough Intelligence to become sentient and self aware, it does not need more. Instead it requires something else.
I do not agree. The ability to learn is again, just a minor part of it. People have trained goldfish to do things - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JFmrlgWAk. There is some argument to be made that any thing with a brain can learn.
In the real world, certain Dolphins, octopi, birds, and dogs (not all - see https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/07/dog.html ) probably have more intelligence than the stupidest of humans. They are limited more by other factors (limbs, water, voice boxes) and the refusal of most humans to spend the same amount of effort teaching those animals as they spend on teaching the least intelligent of humans.
The best AIs have memory and can be programmed to learn. They have as of yet not shown ANY sign of being sentient or self aware. It takes something more than that.
The discussion of sentience is falling under "what would be cool beyond that?"
And the answer is, "Sentience would be a very cool thing to happen."
I guess if you just want to make it like a PC with an INT of 19 but with none of the abilities to actually utilize that INT, knock yourself out. I'm just saying the sentient robot would be a thing I'd remember after the campaign is done.
High intelligence does not equal sentience. Just because you have an ipad instead of an apple II doesn't mean the ipad is sentient. Your steel defender would simply be better at streaming youtube clips and accessing your downloaded copy of 'Tusk Love'.
Are you then of the school that insists that Data is 'just a machine?' How about Ultron? At what level does simulating sentience not equate to actual sentience?
Well that's a non sequitur that has literally nothing to do with was I wrote. But I'll explain it again. High "intelligence" does not equal sentience. Intelligence doesn't even equate to "simulating sentience". Those are completely different things.
The device that you wrote that on is probably more "intelligent" than you are, yet it is not a sentient being. People with brain injuries can have very low levels of brain functionality but guess what, they are still sentient.
Are you then of the school that insists that Data is 'just a machine?' How about Ultron? At what level does simulating sentience not equate to actual sentience?
Well that's a non sequitur that has literally nothing to do with was I wrote. But I'll explain it again. High "intelligence" does not equal sentience. Intelligence doesn't even equate to "simulating sentience". Those are completely different things.
The device that you wrote that on is probably more "intelligent" than you are, yet it is not a sentient being. People with brain injuries can have very low levels of brain functionality but guess what, they are still sentient.
With due respect, 'intelligence' itself is word whose meaning is the subject of debate. To the extent the definition includes learning and pattern recognition (both considered key components of intelligence tests), the human brain still far surpasses any computer yet built. There is no human equivalent AI currently existing, let alone better than human.
Nothing you just said contradicts anything I said, so yes, that is absolutely true. But sure, if you want to embarass yourself by making this solely about the human brain's ability to make certain computations faster than computers simply by having a biomechanical advantage, sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with sentience either. That said, I bet you that your computer is much quicker at calculating 23(43-87(-4+3)*-8^29+3 than you are. ;
Bringing this back to D&D, it is a magical world, and things such as headbands of intellect exist that simply do not exist in the real world. True AI might well be possible in such a world.
Sure. But that's not what the topic was about. the question is whether or not simply the fact that raising a non-senient construct's intelligence to 19 via a magic item would make it sentient. The mere fact of raising intellegence does not, as it stands.
Are you then of the school that insists that Data is 'just a machine?' How about Ultron? At what level does simulating sentience not equate to actual sentience?
Well that's a non sequitur that has literally nothing to do with was I wrote. But I'll explain it again. High "intelligence" does not equal sentience. Intelligence doesn't even equate to "simulating sentience". Those are completely different things.
The device that you wrote that on is probably more "intelligent" than you are, yet it is not a sentient being. People with brain injuries can have very low levels of brain functionality but guess what, they are still sentient.
With due respect, 'intelligence' itself is word whose meaning is the subject of debate. To the extent the definition includes learning and pattern recognition (both considered key components of intelligence tests), the human brain still far surpasses any computer yet built. There is no human equivalent AI currently existing, let alone better than human.
Nothing you just said contradicts anything I said, so yes, that is absolutely true. But sure, if you want to embarass yourself by making this solely about the human brain's ability to make certain computations faster than computers simply by having a biomechanical advantage, sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with sentience either. That said, I bet you that your computer is much quicker at calculating 23(43-87(-4+3)*-8^29+3 than you are. ;
Bringing this back to D&D, it is a magical world, and things such as headbands of intellect exist that simply do not exist in the real world. True AI might well be possible in such a world.
Sure. But that's not what the topic was about. the question is whether or not simply the fact that raising a non-senient construct's intelligence to 19 via a magic item would make it sentient. The mere fact of raising intellegence does not, as it stands.
Again, it is not merely the ability to compute faster. Computers have had the ability to compute faster than humans since the first analog computers. No one would use an adding machine if everyone could add faster and as accurately in their heads. There are people who can add faster in their heads than simple adding machines, but no one would call an adding machine 'intelligent.' Frankly you are ignoring pretty much everything I said about the definition of intelligence and hand waiving it as irrelevant without actually responding to it.
There are AI's today which have at least some learning capacity, but there still is nothing equivalent to human intelligence, let alone superior. Vastly superior processing power yes, but actual intelligence? Not so much. (This is also something people typically do not understand when they complain about the 'AI' in any given game).
Cool story, bro. Not that it has anything to do with anything or the subject at hand. But very cool none the less. Your mother must be really proud.
Again, nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with intelligence equating to sentience.
I would actually say, that a Iron Defender with increased INT would be something like a semi-autonomous automaton, that can interprete and extrapolate commands.
I'm trying this in my own game and I'm seeing what happens the end goal is to have my character use a mixture of the headband of intellect a docent and to find more experienced artificer to teach my character how to build a voice box( so the steel defender can speak) in order to make a super intelligent steel defender that basically has another artificial intelligence inside it along with the ability to speak which may all culminate in this being a incredible AI wizard npc.
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Hello every body,
Since i first saw the artificer Battle Smith subclass and his Steel Defender, i had allways one idea in mind.
What would happen if you would give your Steel Defender a Headband of Intellect.
RAW: It would race the Steels Defenders INT to 19.
But beyond that, what would happening?
Would a steel defender become a sentient being?
Would he become a follower of sorts and be able to act completely on his own?
In rollplay terms someone could argue that you install the headbend like a processor which would make him really smart like an A.I.
Would he be than something like a proto warforged? Dont forget they where crafted by Artificer at one point.
I would really like to hear what you guys think about that.
cheers Tom
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D&D Beyond FoundersAn interesting experiment, but the Headband of Intellect required attunement, which the steel defender doesn't seem to be capable of.
If you were able to make it fully sentient then I expect it would become an NPC under the control of the DM. ☺️
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Oh i Thought he can? didnt Jeremy Crawford said on sage advice:" A D&D creature can use magic items, unless its anatomy or a rule precludes such use. For example, the steel defender is a creature that can reasonably use many different magic items."
I think a lot of this goes into DM discretion. But for balance sake I wouldn't allow the Steel Defender to attune to magic items, since it essentially gives the Artificer, a class that already gains extra attunements, the ability to attune 3 extra items that you can tap into whenever you order your Steel Defender to use them. My justification would be that the Steel Defender doesn't have enough intelligence to attune to an item the way a fully sentient creature is able to.
That said... I would allow the headband of intellect specifically to be used the way you're describing, because it sounds fun for roleplay purposes. I would, however, require that installing it into the Steel Defender destroys the headband, and also require a skill check of some kind over at least a day of work to successfully install it as, essentially, a magic CPU. Plus if your steel defender gets destroyed, creating another one wouldn't include the intelligence boost from the headband. But that's all homebrew... and honestly, the artificer in general seems to encourage a good amount of homebrewing with their inventions and all.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I like TransmorpherDDS's house rule.
Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how "attuned" you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
Transmorpher where does it say in any rules that you need to have more than 4 intelligence to attune to an item?
And if i read it correct how wisdom and intelligence work wisdom would be needed to attune more then intelligence and not even that is raw.
There are no limits on attributes when it comes to attunment.
No rule sais that a construct cant take a short rest or cant concentrate.
My DM would allow it but i wanted to know for sure if the standard game rules would allow it.
I cant find any rule that a defender cant attune to magic items only that he cant use magic items in combat.
That is interesting... I suppose, if you're going by RAW, the Steel Defender should be able to attune to magical items, but isn't capable of actively "using" them. Like... if you gave it a wand of Fireballs, it would be unable to use the wand to cast fireball. But any item with a passive effect would be valid. Still, I think it's a bad idea for a DM to allow it... but there's also the question of... just how many magical items would a party be receiving that the Steel Defender is the best party member to give a rare magical item to? In that sense it's kind of a problem that solves itself... has the potential for abuse, but attempting to abuse it is, for the most part, less useful than just giving the items to one of the more capable party members in the first place.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
An Artificer can use his infusion to creat the head band.
I like Transmorpher's rule, but I'd probably rule that once your steel defender achieves sentience, it's not a steel defender anymore. It's an NPC with its own thoughts and motivations and the artificer will need to build a new steel defender to use in battle.
When you give a companion a certain level of power and autonomy, it ceases to be a servant and instead becomes an ally.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Oh sure, but that's still one less magical item that you could be using for something else. You're essentially depriving yourself of one of your valuable infusions each day just to have a steel defender that can chat with you and maybe take care of history checks outside of combat. Maybe you make it better at surviving INT saves. But it's still largely a roleplay thing.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
High intelligence does not equal sentience. Just because you have an ipad instead of an apple II doesn't mean the ipad is sentient. Your steel defender would simply be better at streaming youtube clips and accessing your downloaded copy of 'Tusk Love'.
I agree that High IQ != sentience.
But that has nothing to do with Data or Ultron. Both of display the true hallmark of sentience, found in any two year old child:
The ability to say "NO! I Don't Want to!" .
(I am not talking about a pre-programmed response, but an emergent phenomena. )
This is not about the ability to do math, recognize patterns (either general or specific). It is about a sense of self and desire that has nothing to do with logic.
A sufficiently complex brain (minimal intelligence) is necessary but it is not sufficient for this to develop. In truth, I would suspect the quality D&D calls Charisma has more to do with it than Intelligence.
Keep in mind that the Steel Defender starts with an Int of 4, (also Charisma of 6) and it is possible for a human to have an Int of 3 (and a Charisma of 3). The Steel Defender already has enough Intelligence to become sentient and self aware, it does not need more. Instead it requires something else.
I do not agree. The ability to learn is again, just a minor part of it. People have trained goldfish to do things - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JFmrlgWAk. There is some argument to be made that any thing with a brain can learn.
In the real world, certain Dolphins, octopi, birds, and dogs (not all - see https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/07/dog.html ) probably have more intelligence than the stupidest of humans. They are limited more by other factors (limbs, water, voice boxes) and the refusal of most humans to spend the same amount of effort teaching those animals as they spend on teaching the least intelligent of humans.
The best AIs have memory and can be programmed to learn. They have as of yet not shown ANY sign of being sentient or self aware. It takes something more than that.
OP covered the RAW, pedantic effect.
The discussion of sentience is falling under "what would be cool beyond that?"
And the answer is, "Sentience would be a very cool thing to happen."
I guess if you just want to make it like a PC with an INT of 19 but with none of the abilities to actually utilize that INT, knock yourself out. I'm just saying the sentient robot would be a thing I'd remember after the campaign is done.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Well that's a non sequitur that has literally nothing to do with was I wrote. But I'll explain it again. High "intelligence" does not equal sentience. Intelligence doesn't even equate to "simulating sentience". Those are completely different things.
The device that you wrote that on is probably more "intelligent" than you are, yet it is not a sentient being. People with brain injuries can have very low levels of brain functionality but guess what, they are still sentient.
Nothing you just said contradicts anything I said, so yes, that is absolutely true. But sure, if you want to embarass yourself by making this solely about the human brain's ability to make certain computations faster than computers simply by having a biomechanical advantage, sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with sentience either. That said, I bet you that your computer is much quicker at calculating 23(43-87(-4+3)*-8^29+3 than you are. ;
Sure. But that's not what the topic was about. the question is whether or not simply the fact that raising a non-senient construct's intelligence to 19 via a magic item would make it sentient. The mere fact of raising intellegence does not, as it stands.
Cool story, bro. Not that it has anything to do with anything or the subject at hand. But very cool none the less. Your mother must be really proud.
Again, nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with intelligence equating to sentience.
I would actually say, that a Iron Defender with increased INT would be something like a semi-autonomous automaton, that can interprete and extrapolate commands.
It is not necessarily sentient.
Further disrespect will not be tolerated. Please keep all post contributions respectful, constructive, and on-topic.
Thank you! :D
I'm trying this in my own game and I'm seeing what happens the end goal is to have my character use a mixture of the headband of intellect a docent and to find more experienced artificer to teach my character how to build a voice box( so the steel defender can speak) in order to make a super intelligent steel defender that basically has another artificial intelligence inside it along with the ability to speak which may all culminate in this being a incredible AI wizard npc.