I'm playing as a wizzard in our current campaign based in waterdeep. I play with my best friend, brother and father in law and my wife is the (long suffering) DM.
After a combat encounter in a pub in which all the enemies were killed my character is unstable on the floor having failed two death saving throws. The pub is on fire due to my excessive use of burning hands and all the doors have been locked by me using arcane lock before the combat started. Not my greatest of plans particular as I didn't tell them the password to unlock the doors.
Everyone else health is fine with only minor injuries and doesn't even need healing. However they are all concerned about how to get out of the burning pub and what to do about my character.
After a lengthy discussion about what they should do next I suggested that I should still be making death saving throws. It was then argued that because combat had finished that I know longer needed to make death saving throws. Please note that no one had given my character first aid or healing of any sort. In fact there was a general opinion that as combat had finished there was no immediate risk of me dying.
The party rouge then went about ransacking the pub and then all the dead bodies in it as it was described by the DM as only being slightly on fire and not at risk of collapse. After all this he smashed a window and the party escaped though it with my still unstable body in a net slung over our fighters shoulder.
I then asked again if I had to make a death saving throws and I was told strongly that I couldn't die as we were not in combat and to shut up.
So my question is this.... Do you need to keep making death saving throws outside combat.
Particularly if your party is unwilling to give you any aid or healing due to locking them in a pub you set on fire..... AGAIN.
Please note I'm not looking to kill off my character the situation just went south and upset everyone due to bad planning. It's just if you can't die outside combat then as a wizzard I could massively exploit this as a loophole to derail the DM's plans. Not a good idea as she's my wife.
Technically, you do continue to make death saving throws. In fact, you can even stay in initiative order after all the enemies are gone! The turn system (and thus the "one death save a turn" rule) is a tool to use when it's relevant, not something that gets switched on and off when violence starts and stops.
In the games I typically play in and run, the first action anyone takes when combat finishes is to make sure any down characters are stable and if healing is available to bring them back to consciousness. A cleric with spare the dying, a healing potion, any healing spell, a healer's kit, the healer feat, or a medicine check are all ways to stabilize a character in combat. I might even allow an auto success out of combat simply because having a character fail an additional death save after combat is over is a pretty uninspiring way for a character to die. Perhaps if they had already failed two death saves and were on the verge of losing it, I might try to make the situation more narratively dramatic as the DM by making it clear how close the character was to dying. I then might get the party scrambling to make some die rolls or cast a spell but unless everyone rolled a 1 on the checks I'd be very unlikely to force the character to die because of failed checks like this out of combat.
RAW, combat probably shouldn't end until all characters are at least stabilized but I can see a lot of groups just skipping this part.
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life....
Huh. I suppose if I’m going to stick to my “there’s no such thing as a ‘turn’ outside of combat” position, the language above does indeed suggest that death saving throws only happen in combat, and can be done away with afterwards... which may not actually be a bad rule, as outside of combat a characters death can and should be in the DMs hands as part of the narrative.
Why does combat end just because all the enemies are dead? The fact is, his situation is unresolved, so combat imo, continues until everything is resolved. The DM /should/ have kept everything in intiative to remind the that there were unresolved things still happening.
<DM> Rogue, what do you do?
<Rogue> Ransack the place for loot.
<DM> Ok, you use the search action, roll me investigation. Anything else?
<DM> Ok, honey, you're up. Make that death save since the rogue didn't heal you or stabilize you yet.
<Rogue> HEY, Combat's over, he's OK.
<DM> Who said combat's over just because all the enemies are dead. You have a party member down in a burning building. Combat is most certainly /not/ over until everything is resolved.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Why does combat end just because all the enemies are dead? The fact is, his situation is unresolved, so combat imo, continues until everything is resolved. The DM /should/ have kept everything in intiative to remind the that there were unresolved things still happening.
<DM> Rogue, what do you do?
<Rogue> Ransack the place for loot.
<DM> Ok, you use the search action, roll me investigation. Anything else?
<DM> Ok, honey, you're up. Make that death save since the rogue didn't heal you or stabilize you yet.
<Rogue> HEY, Combat's over, he's OK.
<DM> Who said combat's over just because all the enemies are dead. You have a party member down in a burning building. Combat is most certainly /not/ over until everything is resolved.
This is typically how I run it as well. Other DMs may do it other ways, but this makes the most sense to me.
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life....
Huh. I suppose if I’m going to stick to my “there’s no such thing as a ‘turn’ outside of combat” position, the language above does indeed suggest that death saving throws only happen in combat, and can be done away with afterwards... which may not actually be a bad rule, as outside of combat a characters death can and should be in the DMs hands as part of the narrative.
It also means you cannot suffocate outside of combat. Breathing is apparently only required in combat. Also, all chases are combat encounters. In fact, there is no rigorous definition of what a combat encounter is.
In fact, rather than saying "you must not need to make death saves when you are out of combat," I would probably rule that "If you are making death saves (or engaged in some other activity that requires combat) then you are still in combat."
I think the problem with how it's worded in the PHB is that it provides a massive loophole which if your not careful the players will all exploit. It could also encourage risky behaviour by players which would normally be out if character. This started to happen at the beginning of the campaign when we were using xp levelling. It took two sessions for my wife to switch to milestone levelling to prevent any murder hoboing of her NPC she spent ages developing.
Not having a system for making death saves out of combat does not mean that you cannot die out of combat. I would imagine that breathing is the same.
However, the Suffocating rules aren't in the Combat section, but do use "rounds" and "turn" as signifigant terms, so maybe it's worth reconsidering the "turns only happen in combat" position after all.
Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.
I just really don't know anymore. Old dead horse and all that, but 5E's sloppy and inconsistent use of game terms is not to be admired, because ultimately it vastly overcomplicates what should be fairly simple concepts and systems.
I never considered "combat" as just fighting an enemy. You go into combat rounds when ever there is a threat and or you are in a time and order sensitive situation. The post opening this is a great example. After the enemies fell, there was still a time sensitive threat happening (2 actually). The wizard is still bleeding out and the building is on fire.
The outcome of requiring stabilization outside of combat is just the party making a conga line in front of the dying character and rolling checks until he's stable. It's tedious and unnecessary unless the PC is super close to dying or there is an imminent threat. That being said if the player of the dying character was requesting it, I'd ask the other players to take a second to resolve the situation to everyone's satisfaction.
To further clarify my best friend the fighter and my brother in law the rouge were both in favour of just leaving me there to die. In fact I think the rogue wanted me to die because I mucked up his stealthy plan in which he disguised himself as a busty woman to seduce the target we had to assassinate.
Make no mistake there was no conga line of people wanting to save me. The barbarian persuaded the fighter to carry me out after bundling me into his backpack.
I would not be surprised if the rouge tries to stab me in the back and kill me next session this Saturday.
I don't take it as a personal attack so don't worry about that. Also the barbarian saved me (My father in law) with help from the fighter and the DM was trying to not get my character killed for a silly reason.
So I don't think the group as a whole wants me dead. Mildly annoyed with me being a bit of a rules lawer and interupting the flow of the game. Think VAR in football. Not the American type.
I think the other issue is that the rouge who is the face of the party often ends up doing the vast amount of role playing outside combat encounters but ends up being left behind in the fight a little bit. Our fighter will kick down every door he can find and charge into every room he can shouting LEEROY JENKINS! Funny but it undermines the stealthy rouge complex plans and he gets frustrated whilst we all burst into laugher.
So maybe the lesson from this story is "Teamwork makes the dream work!"
And also try to get all the players characters interacting on a regular basis rather that having one player make most of the decisions outside combat encounters. Ask other players what are they doing while the rouge goes off drinking and looting for an extended period of time because he is a bit of a loner.
I think what is the most important thing here is what the DM decided, I know that is obvious but, if it was not their intent to have you die, you won't. It's hand waved away, which it was. If they wanted it to be resolved in a mechanical fashion, due to the inaction/concern of your group, you should be dead.
What I do, is I'll ask my interpretation of the rule once. If the DM lets it slide, it's on the DM (provided it's in my favor; I'll argue a bit more strenuously if I think I am getting the shaft). After that, my conscience is clear...I didn't cheat or conceal anything.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm playing as a wizzard in our current campaign based in waterdeep. I play with my best friend, brother and father in law and my wife is the (long suffering) DM.
After a combat encounter in a pub in which all the enemies were killed my character is unstable on the floor having failed two death saving throws. The pub is on fire due to my excessive use of burning hands and all the doors have been locked by me using arcane lock before the combat started. Not my greatest of plans particular as I didn't tell them the password to unlock the doors.
Everyone else health is fine with only minor injuries and doesn't even need healing. However they are all concerned about how to get out of the burning pub and what to do about my character.
After a lengthy discussion about what they should do next I suggested that I should still be making death saving throws. It was then argued that because combat had finished that I know longer needed to make death saving throws. Please note that no one had given my character first aid or healing of any sort. In fact there was a general opinion that as combat had finished there was no immediate risk of me dying.
The party rouge then went about ransacking the pub and then all the dead bodies in it as it was described by the DM as only being slightly on fire and not at risk of collapse. After all this he smashed a window and the party escaped though it with my still unstable body in a net slung over our fighters shoulder.
I then asked again if I had to make a death saving throws and I was told strongly that I couldn't die as we were not in combat and to shut up.
So my question is this.... Do you need to keep making death saving throws outside combat.
Particularly if your party is unwilling to give you any aid or healing due to locking them in a pub you set on fire..... AGAIN.
Please note I'm not looking to kill off my character the situation just went south and upset everyone due to bad planning. It's just if you can't die outside combat then as a wizzard I could massively exploit this as a loophole to derail the DM's plans. Not a good idea as she's my wife.
No where in the rules does it state that you automatically stabilize outside of combat, however the DM has final say.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Technically, you do continue to make death saving throws. In fact, you can even stay in initiative order after all the enemies are gone! The turn system (and thus the "one death save a turn" rule) is a tool to use when it's relevant, not something that gets switched on and off when violence starts and stops.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
It is entirely up to the DM to rule on.
In the games I typically play in and run, the first action anyone takes when combat finishes is to make sure any down characters are stable and if healing is available to bring them back to consciousness. A cleric with spare the dying, a healing potion, any healing spell, a healer's kit, the healer feat, or a medicine check are all ways to stabilize a character in combat. I might even allow an auto success out of combat simply because having a character fail an additional death save after combat is over is a pretty uninspiring way for a character to die. Perhaps if they had already failed two death saves and were on the verge of losing it, I might try to make the situation more narratively dramatic as the DM by making it clear how close the character was to dying. I then might get the party scrambling to make some die rolls or cast a spell but unless everyone rolled a 1 on the checks I'd be very unlikely to force the character to die because of failed checks like this out of combat.
RAW, combat probably shouldn't end until all characters are at least stabilized but I can see a lot of groups just skipping this part.
Death Saving Throws
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life....
Huh. I suppose if I’m going to stick to my “there’s no such thing as a ‘turn’ outside of combat” position, the language above does indeed suggest that death saving throws only happen in combat, and can be done away with afterwards... which may not actually be a bad rule, as outside of combat a characters death can and should be in the DMs hands as part of the narrative.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Why does combat end just because all the enemies are dead? The fact is, his situation is unresolved, so combat imo, continues until everything is resolved. The DM /should/ have kept everything in intiative to remind the that there were unresolved things still happening.
<DM> Rogue, what do you do?
<Rogue> Ransack the place for loot.
<DM> Ok, you use the search action, roll me investigation. Anything else?
<DM> Ok, honey, you're up. Make that death save since the rogue didn't heal you or stabilize you yet.
<Rogue> HEY, Combat's over, he's OK.
<DM> Who said combat's over just because all the enemies are dead. You have a party member down in a burning building. Combat is most certainly /not/ over until everything is resolved.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This is typically how I run it as well. Other DMs may do it other ways, but this makes the most sense to me.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Thanks for all the feedback.
My wife is a relatively new DM and this is the first time she's DM'd with family other than me.
It also means you cannot suffocate outside of combat. Breathing is apparently only required in combat. Also, all chases are combat encounters. In fact, there is no rigorous definition of what a combat encounter is.
In fact, rather than saying "you must not need to make death saves when you are out of combat," I would probably rule that "If you are making death saves (or engaged in some other activity that requires combat) then you are still in combat."
That would make logical sense to me as well.
I think the problem with how it's worded in the PHB is that it provides a massive loophole which if your not careful the players will all exploit. It could also encourage risky behaviour by players which would normally be out if character. This started to happen at the beginning of the campaign when we were using xp levelling. It took two sessions for my wife to switch to milestone levelling to prevent any murder hoboing of her NPC she spent ages developing.
Not having a system for making death saves out of combat does not mean that you cannot die out of combat. I would imagine that breathing is the same.
However, the Suffocating rules aren't in the Combat section, but do use "rounds" and "turn" as signifigant terms, so maybe it's worth reconsidering the "turns only happen in combat" position after all.
I just really don't know anymore. Old dead horse and all that, but 5E's sloppy and inconsistent use of game terms is not to be admired, because ultimately it vastly overcomplicates what should be fairly simple concepts and systems.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I never considered "combat" as just fighting an enemy. You go into combat rounds when ever there is a threat and or you are in a time and order sensitive situation. The post opening this is a great example. After the enemies fell, there was still a time sensitive threat happening (2 actually). The wizard is still bleeding out and the building is on fire.
The outcome of requiring stabilization outside of combat is just the party making a conga line in front of the dying character and rolling checks until he's stable. It's tedious and unnecessary unless the PC is super close to dying or there is an imminent threat. That being said if the player of the dying character was requesting it, I'd ask the other players to take a second to resolve the situation to everyone's satisfaction.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
To further clarify my best friend the fighter and my brother in law the rouge were both in favour of just leaving me there to die. In fact I think the rogue wanted me to die because I mucked up his stealthy plan in which he disguised himself as a busty woman to seduce the target we had to assassinate.
Make no mistake there was no conga line of people wanting to save me. The barbarian persuaded the fighter to carry me out after bundling me into his backpack.
I would not be surprised if the rouge tries to stab me in the back and kill me next session this Saturday.
And I did request the death saving throws twice.
I don't take it as a personal attack so don't worry about that. Also the barbarian saved me (My father in law) with help from the fighter and the DM was trying to not get my character killed for a silly reason.
So I don't think the group as a whole wants me dead. Mildly annoyed with me being a bit of a rules lawer and interupting the flow of the game. Think VAR in football. Not the American type.
I think the other issue is that the rouge who is the face of the party often ends up doing the vast amount of role playing outside combat encounters but ends up being left behind in the fight a little bit. Our fighter will kick down every door he can find and charge into every room he can shouting LEEROY JENKINS! Funny but it undermines the stealthy rouge complex plans and he gets frustrated whilst we all burst into laugher.
So maybe the lesson from this story is "Teamwork makes the dream work!"
And also try to get all the players characters interacting on a regular basis rather that having one player make most of the decisions outside combat encounters. Ask other players what are they doing while the rouge goes off drinking and looting for an extended period of time because he is a bit of a loner.
I think what is the most important thing here is what the DM decided, I know that is obvious but, if it was not their intent to have you die, you won't. It's hand waved away, which it was. If they wanted it to be resolved in a mechanical fashion, due to the inaction/concern of your group, you should be dead.
What I do, is I'll ask my interpretation of the rule once. If the DM lets it slide, it's on the DM (provided it's in my favor; I'll argue a bit more strenuously if I think I am getting the shaft). After that, my conscience is clear...I didn't cheat or conceal anything.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
My headcannon for how this played out:
Fighter:
The buildins ablaze. Let's get outta here!
Rogue:
Not without a few souvenirs.
Barbarian:
Who has a spare healing potion?
Rogue:
Aww, leave him. <Searches bodies of the dead.> We're in this mess cause he locked the door, innit?
Barbarian:
You have one. Hand it here.
Rogue:
Ya canna see that I'm busy right now? <Loads sack with pricey alcohol.>
Fighter:
My eyes are watering from all this smoke. <Picks up a chair and throws it through the glass window.> Let's go! Let's go!
Barbarian:
(To Fighter) Get the wizard will you?
Fighter:
So's he can pull this on us again? Not today. <Clears broken glass still on window frame.>
Barbarian:
He'd saved you if you were bleeding out.
Fighter:
Only so he laugh at my reaction when he pulls nother one of his jokes. <Picks up Wizard.> Hey, muscle man, a little help here?
Barbarian:
If the rogue gets loot from this mess, then so do I. <Stuffing booze into haversack.>