Something that's fun with that double attack cantrip mix is warlock. Take a couple levels into warlock, get eldritch blast+ evocations repelling blast, grasp of Hadar and/ or devil's sight. Get darkness as a wizard and web and take the war caster feat + resilient Constitution and you're control the battlefield by yourself. Cast eldritch blast to drag enemies up to 40 feet closet to you and up to 4d10 damage (lv 20) or repel them after you hit them with your weapon (no saving throws involved) And if you have darkness and misty step you get all sorts of "screw you good luck trying to hit me" kinda stuff. I made a lv 10 wizard bladesinger/ lv 8 fighter (any subclass) / lv 2 hexblade warlock. 8 levels into fighters keeps you from missing out on those precious ASI's. Another useful battlefield control feat is spell sniper, increasing eldritch blasts range. Half elf or high elves or fire genasis are a great race to pick. Also war magic wizard + eldritch knight also gives you cantrip+weapon attacks and war wizard gives you some serious counterspells/ac/saving throw boosts, giving you much more control abilities. And action surge is just amazing with spell casters. 8 lv eldritch knight + 12 level wizard give you SIX ASI's/ feats. That's just awesome
Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
I've gotta put this one to rest, sorry random dude who said channel divinity
Most likely, "Use your action to cast a cantrip" refers to the Action known as "Cast a Spell" (a cantrip is a spell), this ability is there to incentivize EKs to ACTUALLY USE CANTRIPS and still do weapon damage, while Bladesinger Extra Attack is another Action entirely known as simply "Attack", when you take the "Attack" action, you gain an "Extra" attack during the run of that "Attack" Action, but it is still an entirely separate action from "Cast a Spell", despite them both involving, in this case, a cantrip and a weapon attack
of course, ask your DM but I feel like this is ignoring the fact that there are different Actions you can take, and the game was balanced with this in mind
Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
I've gotta put this one to rest, sorry random dude who said channel divinity
Most likely, "Use your action to cast a cantrip" refers to the Action known as "Cast a Spell" (a cantrip is a spell), this ability is there to incentivize EKs to ACTUALLY USE CANTRIPS and still do weapon damage, while Bladesinger Extra Attack is another Action entirely known as simply "Attack", when you take the "Attack" action, you gain an "Extra" attack during the run of that "Attack" Action, but it is still an entirely separate action from "Cast a Spell", despite them both involving, in this case, a cantrip and a weapon attack
of course, ask your DM but I feel like this is ignoring the fact that there are different Actions you can take, and the game was balanced with this in mind
The part that you quoted was a misquote on my part. I don't recall what I meant to quote as and I'm not certain where the channel divinity came in, but it wasn't suggested that you could use channel divinity with the bladesinger extra attack. Channel Divinity was likely in there to show how the two different extra attacks wouldn't stack.
I could see interpretations where you just get whatever version of extra attack that you reach first as well as interpretations that would say that you could choose between using the fighter extra attack to get 3 attacks or bladesinger to be able to choose between 2 attacks and an attack plus a cantrip.
I was apologizing to the channel divinity guy since they were caught in the quote crossfire
Primarily my speal on Attack vs Cast a Spell was for Bladesinger triggering War Magic
Makes sense. As for War Magic, it doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell action, just that you have to cast a cantrip using your action. When the PHB came out, it forced you to use Cast a Spell for the majority of your triggers. Something like Circlet of Blasting could trigger Improved War Magic (since it doesn't say use the Cast a Spell action, it uses the terminology of "use your action to cast a spell" which differentiates the improved version from the original version of War Magic). With Bladesinger extra attack, you can now use you action to make an attack and, as the part in red from the section you quoted shows, you are casting a cantrip in place of one of those attacks. Since War Magic only asks that you cast a cantrip using your action and you are using your action to cast a cantrip in place of one of those attacks, it follows that Bladesinger Extra Attack triggers War Magic.
That doesn't mean that every DM will rule it that way. Further, as is mentioned several times in discussion, doing so would require an EK 7/Bladesinger 6 to pull off. If you attack with anything using two hands (including versatile weapons) you are precluded from using Bladesong as that is one of the things that can end your Bladesong early. Being able to cast a cantrip while making two full weapon attacks at 13th level is powerful, but it's not significantly more powerful than making one attack and casting a cantrip while using weapon that can be wielded with 1 hand (to allow it to combo with Bladesong, which also precludes you from using a shield or anything more than light armor).
Considering the stat requirements needed to be able to use a two-handed weapon (including versatile weapons) effectively (a 20 strength at 13th level) while also having a high enough dexterity and intelligence to make using Bladesong effective enough to use and having a reasonable constitution, you'd probably have to roll for stats or just forego Bladesong. Having a 20 strength (using a 15 or 14 from Standard Array, plus a racial bonus to get to 16 or 17, plus 2 of the 3 ASIs you'd have at EK 7/Bladesinger 6) doesn't leave you much for the rest. Let's say you go 15 strength, +1 racial bonus for 16 to start, and go strength +2 at EK 4 and EK 6 to get 20 strength. You put your 13 in intelligence to multiclass wizard and your 12 into constitution because you feel that's the lowest that you really want to go there. You put your 8 in Charisma because it's better there and the 10 in Wisdom than the other way around considering saves. You can now put your 14 into dexterity, add 2 from racial bonus and add 2 from Bladesinger 4 for a grand total of 18. You now have a max AC of Studded Leather giving 12 + 4 dex bonus for 16 AC +1 from intelligence if Bladesong is active. Your Save DC is 8+5 (proficiency bonus) + 1 (intelligence) for 14. Your to hit bonus is 5 (proficiency bonus) +1 (intelligence) = 6 for cantrips vs 10 for weapon attacks. This means that your probably limited to Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade for the cantrip or giving up 20% accuracy on the attack. Forcing a save might be alright depending on your target, but my understanding is that save or suck spells tend to be less effective in tier 3 and 4 than attacks and that's considering a full 18 DC save. Foregoing strength for a dex build allows for better intelligence, better ability synergy, and better versatility while limiting your melee damage. It does put less stress on your stats and opens up options with feats.
Bladesinger Extra Attack doesn't stack with Fighter Extra Attack, but you still gain it as opposed to the Unarmored Defense rule in the multiclass rules that says that you don't gain the Barbarian version if you already have the Monk version of Unarmored Defense or vice versa. Since you have both versions of Extra Attack, you can choose to use the 3 attack version of fighter extra attack if you are a fighter 11/Bladesinger 6 or you can use the 2 attack: substitute 1 attack for a cantrip version from Bladesinger. A permissive DM might rule that you could combine them, but that's not in spirit with the Extra Attack rules as currently constituted in the PHB.
Basically, I'm saying per the Rules as Written, it's possible, but in practice it's probably not as cool as it would seem.
It’s not a good idea to multi class with Bladesinger. I’ve been playing them for a couple of years and I’d avoid multi classing. You are always giving up something better.
I would say that Battlesmith Artificer will be a great pick as well...no delay in slot progression and you can buff up your weapon in a lot of ways and be more SAD with the INT weapon attacks.
Also your steel defender makes your already super high AC even crazier with the reaction to create DIS on attacks against you.
You do lose spell slots. Artificer is a half caster.
Something that's fun with that double attack cantrip mix is warlock. Take a couple levels into warlock, get eldritch blast+ evocations repelling blast, grasp of Hadar and/ or devil's sight. Get darkness as a wizard and web and take the war caster feat + resilient Constitution and you're control the battlefield by yourself. Cast eldritch blast to drag enemies up to 40 feet closet to you and up to 4d10 damage (lv 20) or repel them after you hit them with your weapon (no saving throws involved) And if you have darkness and misty step you get all sorts of "screw you good luck trying to hit me" kinda stuff. I made a lv 10 wizard bladesinger/ lv 8 fighter (any subclass) / lv 2 hexblade warlock. 8 levels into fighters keeps you from missing out on those precious ASI's. Another useful battlefield control feat is spell sniper, increasing eldritch blasts range. Half elf or high elves or fire genasis are a great race to pick. Also war magic wizard + eldritch knight also gives you cantrip+weapon attacks and war wizard gives you some serious counterspells/ac/saving throw boosts, giving you much more control abilities. And action surge is just amazing with spell casters. 8 lv eldritch knight + 12 level wizard give you SIX ASI's/ feats. That's just awesome
Grasp of Hadar is once on each of your turns (it's the same with Lance of Lethargy). Only Repelling Blast can occur multiple times on a turn and it can be used with a Warcaster OA.
Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
I've gotta put this one to rest, sorry random dude who said channel divinity
Most likely, "Use your action to cast a cantrip" refers to the Action known as "Cast a Spell" (a cantrip is a spell), this ability is there to incentivize EKs to ACTUALLY USE CANTRIPS and still do weapon damage, while Bladesinger Extra Attack is another Action entirely known as simply "Attack", when you take the "Attack" action, you gain an "Extra" attack during the run of that "Attack" Action, but it is still an entirely separate action from "Cast a Spell", despite them both involving, in this case, a cantrip and a weapon attack
of course, ask your DM but I feel like this is ignoring the fact that there are different Actions you can take, and the game was balanced with this in mind
The part that you quoted was a misquote on my part. I don't recall what I meant to quote as and I'm not certain where the channel divinity came in, but it wasn't suggested that you could use channel divinity with the bladesinger extra attack. Channel Divinity was likely in there to show how the two different extra attacks wouldn't stack.
I could see interpretations where you just get whatever version of extra attack that you reach first as well as interpretations that would say that you could choose between using the fighter extra attack to get 3 attacks or bladesinger to be able to choose between 2 attacks and an attack plus a cantrip.
This would indicate that its not a problem https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2nWJzLrsm8bk0mxjxn3_a8Sid7OnVcvC Attack with weapon (shadowblade), booming blade cantrip, then bonus action attack with shadowblade. They arent the same feature so they stack. You are using the EK war magic benefit as part of the extra attack feature of Bladesinger.
I wouldnt go more than 8 (3 ASI) in EK as you dont want to swap to the EK extra attack (2) at 11 or you lose the benefit of being able to do the cantrip swapout. So at EK8/BS7 the question becomes what to do with those final levels. If you want higher spells go to 12. If you want to be more martial go EK8/BS8/AT4 or even EK8/BS10/Rogue 2
It’s not a good idea to multi class with Bladesinger. I’ve been playing them for a couple of years and I’d avoid multi classing. You are always giving up something better.
This depends on how you want to play. If you absolutely want to be a gish casting cantrips in melee, wizard does not help that past level 6. In fact, the higher you go the less incentive you have to melee because your high level spells are much better uses of your action. If you want to continue to make good use of your melee capabilities, you need to MC into other classes that can enhance those abilities.
I have played with a high level Bladesinger wizard and it was basically just a wizard. He'd melee once every three fights or so, always in the cleanup phase of the battle when it didn't matter much. Being a full caster actually hurts the overall concept in the end.
It’s not a good idea to multi class with Bladesinger. I’ve been playing them for a couple of years and I’d avoid multi classing. You are always giving up something better.
This depends on how you want to play. If you absolutely want to be a gish casting cantrips in melee, wizard does not help that past level 6. In fact, the higher you go the less incentive you have to melee because your high level spells are much better uses of your action. If you want to continue to make good use of your melee capabilities, you need to MC into other classes that can enhance those abilities.
I have played with a high level Bladesinger wizard and it was basically just a wizard. He'd melee once every three fights or so, always in the cleanup phase of the battle when it didn't matter much. Being a full caster actually hurts the overall concept in the end.
This is compounded by the fact wizards don't have great spells for engaging in Melee IMO.
Clerics shine with this because they have Spirit Guardians, Inflict Wounds, Etc... that are built for you being in close.
Warlocks are similar especially with the TCoE spells.
Wizards just do not get a lot of spells that mix well with a gish perspective...hence why I think they added the Cantrip replacement for attack to the subclass to make it more viable to actually get into melee.
Well that was an interesting 4 page read of whiteroom comparisons. A few comments from the peanut gallery: 1) deep dive multiclasses in a game that typically ends at the end of tier 2 or somewhere in tier 3 are pretty much a waste as the see little or no real use and you wasted the entire campaign struggling to get there. 2) like bards, monks and sorcerors wizards gain something useful EVERY level, ( either an ability or a spell level) multi classing has severe penalties in terms of what you are giving up vs what you are getting further making deep dives into 2+ classes problematic. 3) most strong multiclass builds call for no more than a 3 level dip to get the added strengths without giving up much of the main class. 4) what we all (yes me too) frequently fail to do is to look not only at the gains at a level but also the losses at the top end that are being given up. This isn’t necessarily L17-20, if you know your ending at L15 then you should be looking at what your losing at L10-15 when judging value gained and lost. 5) try taking those same white room builds and try actually doing them step by step judging which is a better move NOW for the character - what am I gaining each way and what am I loosing/delaying with each alternative? This often Leads to a very different take on how effective the proposed builds are DURING play rather than at some “optimal” point.
Oh interesting I wonder why they made it different for grasp of Hadar than it is for repelling blast. Just pulling someone 10 feet closer doesnt sound as useful at getting distant targets in range anymore
It’s not a good idea to multi class with Bladesinger. I’ve been playing them for a couple of years and I’d avoid multi classing. You are always giving up something better.
This depends on how you want to play. If you absolutely want to be a gish casting cantrips in melee, wizard does not help that past level 6. In fact, the higher you go the less incentive you have to melee because your high level spells are much better uses of your action. If you want to continue to make good use of your melee capabilities, you need to MC into other classes that can enhance those abilities.
I have played with a high level Bladesinger wizard and it was basically just a wizard. He'd melee once every three fights or so, always in the cleanup phase of the battle when it didn't matter much. Being a full caster actually hurts the overall concept in the end.
Yes, but actually the bladesinger dessing is not for a pure gish. You are a Wizard that can be in melee, not a front line warrior that can use magic. The second concept suits better in an Eldritch Knigth.
So if you want to play a pure gish, you should choose Eldritch Knight as your main class and maybe some bladesinger levels (although I would recommend another wizard's subclass, actually).
To play a bladesinger, I don't recommend multiclassing. You lose more than you win.
Yes, but actually the bladesinger dessing is not for a pure gish. You are a Wizard that can be in melee, not a front line warrior that can use magic. The second concept suits better in an Eldritch Knigth.
So if you want to play a pure gish, you should choose Eldritch Knight as your main class and maybe some bladesinger levels (although I would recommend another wizard's subclass, actually).
To play a bladesinger, I don't recommend multiclassing. You lose more than you win.
Not a lot of point in an Eldritch Knight multiclass just because Eldritch Knight is so bad, but you could make it work. Certainly the first two fighter levels would be good. It's the third where my eyebrows go up, because Wizard 18 is a genuinely good level and giving it up is a big deal. Giving up the top 2 levels of Wizard for the first 2 of Fighter is so good it was a good idea for many builds before Bladesinger even existed, and it's certainly still true now. Action Surge is better than the Wizard capstone.
If we're discussing a build at level 20, I don't think any Bladesinger should give up Wizard 18 without due cause - slotless Shield is amazing on them. You'd need a truly stellar dip to compensate for losing that. But the wizard capstone is so weak that other options are worth discussing. For example, Wizard 19/Artificer 1 gets you Con save proficiency and in a campaign with firearms Pistol proficiency. That's pretty ok and doesn't require changing your stats at all. Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is great for any Wizard.
My point is not only the capstone, but that you slow down all your progression. And that in a full caster is very important. When you have, for example, a level 5 bladesinger / level 2 fighter, you should be fighting appropriate threats for level 7. But you are a bladesinger level 5 with action surge and a fighting style. In my opinion you are less competent than a bladesinger lvl 7.
In other wizard's subclasses you could discuss if the proficency in armor and shields is worth it. I think not, and you could also get it from other sources without compromising your progression. But it can be argued.
As for the constitution save, you should first start with the other class (artificer or fighter), losing the proficency in wisdom. For many wizards it can be a good deal. Not for the bladesinger. The bladesinger already has a nice constitution save.
In my opinion you mechanically lose out if you multiclass a wizard. It can work if you have something very specific in mind, or if you want to play in a specific way. But as a general rule you are losing more than you gain. And in the case of bladesinger / figther, you really gain very very little and lose a lot. I used to think like you, but many people argued against it and, by experimenting, I have realized that they were right.
My point is not only the capstone, but that you slow down all your progression. And that in a full caster is very important. When you have, for example, a level 5 bladesinger / level 2 fighter, you should be fighting appropriate threats for level 7. But you are a bladesinger level 5 with action surge and a fighting style. In my opinion you are less competent than a bladesinger lvl 7.
In other wizard's subclasses you could discuss if the proficency in armor and shields is worth it. I think not, and you could also get it from other sources without compromising your progression. But it can be argued.
As for the constitution save, you should first start with the other class (artificer or fighter), losing the proficency in wisdom. For many wizards it can be a good deal. Not for the bladesinger. The bladesinger already has a nice constitution save.
In my opinion you mechanically lose out if you multiclass a wizard. It can work if you have something very specific in mind, or if you want to play in a specific way. But as a general rule you are losing more than you gain. And in the case of bladesinger / figther, you really gain very very little and lose a lot. I used to think like you, but many people argued against it and, by experimenting, I have realized that they were right.
Correct. A level 7 Bladesinger has extra attack (one of which you can use booming blade and greenflame blade), more spell slots, and 4th level spells.
The biggest gain from 2 Fighter is action surge. With action surge you can do things like double fireball. That's pretty cool, but not quite worth what you give up.
Also worth noting, all the weapons and armor proficiency you gain from Fighter is wasted. You can't hold a shield. You can't wear any other armor than Bladesinger allows. You can't use a weapon with two hands.
Without a dog cast in this fight <rimshot> and thinking out loud, what if the fighter dip took unarmed fighting style? I haven't crunched anything, but I like the idea of a Wizard who punches things. The Fistsinger takes the dance of the sweet science to a whole new level.
The biggest problem with that is that it’s a Wizard doing it not a fighter - not enough HP to stay in your face for very long - a skilled boxer with a glass jaw vs a street brawler.
The biggest problem with that is that it’s a Wizard doing it not a fighter - not enough HP to stay in your face for very long - a skilled boxer with a glass jaw vs a street brawler.
Well "Wizard who punches thing" not "Pugilist who casts spells", but I understand what you're saying. Still, isn't that criticism the same one being leveled against all Fighter dips for Bladesinger (the impetus for this thread)? I'd say giving the punchy wizard two d8 weapons always on hand makes up for the whole Bladesinger inability to take advantage of shield or heavier armors without dropping bladesong than some of the other styles.
Mandatory backstory of course is "Character is not a monk because..."
Something that's fun with that double attack cantrip mix is warlock. Take a couple levels into warlock, get eldritch blast+ evocations repelling blast, grasp of Hadar and/ or devil's sight. Get darkness as a wizard and web and take the war caster feat + resilient Constitution and you're control the battlefield by yourself. Cast eldritch blast to drag enemies up to 40 feet closet to you and up to 4d10 damage (lv 20) or repel them after you hit them with your weapon (no saving throws involved) And if you have darkness and misty step you get all sorts of "screw you good luck trying to hit me" kinda stuff. I made a lv 10 wizard bladesinger/ lv 8 fighter (any subclass) / lv 2 hexblade warlock. 8 levels into fighters keeps you from missing out on those precious ASI's. Another useful battlefield control feat is spell sniper, increasing eldritch blasts range. Half elf or high elves or fire genasis are a great race to pick. Also war magic wizard + eldritch knight also gives you cantrip+weapon attacks and war wizard gives you some serious counterspells/ac/saving throw boosts, giving you much more control abilities. And action surge is just amazing with spell casters. 8 lv eldritch knight + 12 level wizard give you SIX ASI's/ feats. That's just awesome
I've gotta put this one to rest, sorry random dude who said channel divinity
Most likely, "Use your action to cast a cantrip" refers to the Action known as "Cast a Spell" (a cantrip is a spell), this ability is there to incentivize EKs to ACTUALLY USE CANTRIPS and still do weapon damage, while Bladesinger Extra Attack is another Action entirely known as simply "Attack", when you take the "Attack" action, you gain an "Extra" attack during the run of that "Attack" Action, but it is still an entirely separate action from "Cast a Spell", despite them both involving, in this case, a cantrip and a weapon attack
of course, ask your DM but I feel like this is ignoring the fact that there are different Actions you can take, and the game was balanced with this in mind
The part that you quoted was a misquote on my part. I don't recall what I meant to quote as and I'm not certain where the channel divinity came in, but it wasn't suggested that you could use channel divinity with the bladesinger extra attack. Channel Divinity was likely in there to show how the two different extra attacks wouldn't stack.
I could see interpretations where you just get whatever version of extra attack that you reach first as well as interpretations that would say that you could choose between using the fighter extra attack to get 3 attacks or bladesinger to be able to choose between 2 attacks and an attack plus a cantrip.
I was apologizing to the channel divinity guy since they were caught in the quote crossfire
Primarily my speal on Attack vs Cast a Spell was for Bladesinger triggering War Magic
Makes sense. As for War Magic, it doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell action, just that you have to cast a cantrip using your action. When the PHB came out, it forced you to use Cast a Spell for the majority of your triggers. Something like Circlet of Blasting could trigger Improved War Magic (since it doesn't say use the Cast a Spell action, it uses the terminology of "use your action to cast a spell" which differentiates the improved version from the original version of War Magic). With Bladesinger extra attack, you can now use you action to make an attack and, as the part in red from the section you quoted shows, you are casting a cantrip in place of one of those attacks. Since War Magic only asks that you cast a cantrip using your action and you are using your action to cast a cantrip in place of one of those attacks, it follows that Bladesinger Extra Attack triggers War Magic.
That doesn't mean that every DM will rule it that way. Further, as is mentioned several times in discussion, doing so would require an EK 7/Bladesinger 6 to pull off. If you attack with anything using two hands (including versatile weapons) you are precluded from using Bladesong as that is one of the things that can end your Bladesong early. Being able to cast a cantrip while making two full weapon attacks at 13th level is powerful, but it's not significantly more powerful than making one attack and casting a cantrip while using weapon that can be wielded with 1 hand (to allow it to combo with Bladesong, which also precludes you from using a shield or anything more than light armor).
Considering the stat requirements needed to be able to use a two-handed weapon (including versatile weapons) effectively (a 20 strength at 13th level) while also having a high enough dexterity and intelligence to make using Bladesong effective enough to use and having a reasonable constitution, you'd probably have to roll for stats or just forego Bladesong. Having a 20 strength (using a 15 or 14 from Standard Array, plus a racial bonus to get to 16 or 17, plus 2 of the 3 ASIs you'd have at EK 7/Bladesinger 6) doesn't leave you much for the rest. Let's say you go 15 strength, +1 racial bonus for 16 to start, and go strength +2 at EK 4 and EK 6 to get 20 strength. You put your 13 in intelligence to multiclass wizard and your 12 into constitution because you feel that's the lowest that you really want to go there. You put your 8 in Charisma because it's better there and the 10 in Wisdom than the other way around considering saves. You can now put your 14 into dexterity, add 2 from racial bonus and add 2 from Bladesinger 4 for a grand total of 18. You now have a max AC of Studded Leather giving 12 + 4 dex bonus for 16 AC +1 from intelligence if Bladesong is active. Your Save DC is 8+5 (proficiency bonus) + 1 (intelligence) for 14. Your to hit bonus is 5 (proficiency bonus) +1 (intelligence) = 6 for cantrips vs 10 for weapon attacks. This means that your probably limited to Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade for the cantrip or giving up 20% accuracy on the attack. Forcing a save might be alright depending on your target, but my understanding is that save or suck spells tend to be less effective in tier 3 and 4 than attacks and that's considering a full 18 DC save. Foregoing strength for a dex build allows for better intelligence, better ability synergy, and better versatility while limiting your melee damage. It does put less stress on your stats and opens up options with feats.
Bladesinger Extra Attack doesn't stack with Fighter Extra Attack, but you still gain it as opposed to the Unarmored Defense rule in the multiclass rules that says that you don't gain the Barbarian version if you already have the Monk version of Unarmored Defense or vice versa. Since you have both versions of Extra Attack, you can choose to use the 3 attack version of fighter extra attack if you are a fighter 11/Bladesinger 6 or you can use the 2 attack: substitute 1 attack for a cantrip version from Bladesinger. A permissive DM might rule that you could combine them, but that's not in spirit with the Extra Attack rules as currently constituted in the PHB.
Basically, I'm saying per the Rules as Written, it's possible, but in practice it's probably not as cool as it would seem.
It’s not a good idea to multi class with Bladesinger. I’ve been playing them for a couple of years and I’d avoid multi classing. You are always giving up something better.
You do lose spell slots. Artificer is a half caster.
Grasp of Hadar is once on each of your turns (it's the same with Lance of Lethargy). Only Repelling Blast can occur multiple times on a turn and it can be used with a Warcaster OA.
This would indicate that its not a problem https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2nWJzLrsm8bk0mxjxn3_a8Sid7OnVcvC Attack with weapon (shadowblade), booming blade cantrip, then bonus action attack with shadowblade. They arent the same feature so they stack. You are using the EK war magic benefit as part of the extra attack feature of Bladesinger.
I wouldnt go more than 8 (3 ASI) in EK as you dont want to swap to the EK extra attack (2) at 11 or you lose the benefit of being able to do the cantrip swapout. So at EK8/BS7 the question becomes what to do with those final levels. If you want higher spells go to 12. If you want to be more martial go EK8/BS8/AT4 or even EK8/BS10/Rogue 2
This depends on how you want to play. If you absolutely want to be a gish casting cantrips in melee, wizard does not help that past level 6. In fact, the higher you go the less incentive you have to melee because your high level spells are much better uses of your action. If you want to continue to make good use of your melee capabilities, you need to MC into other classes that can enhance those abilities.
I have played with a high level Bladesinger wizard and it was basically just a wizard. He'd melee once every three fights or so, always in the cleanup phase of the battle when it didn't matter much. Being a full caster actually hurts the overall concept in the end.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is compounded by the fact wizards don't have great spells for engaging in Melee IMO.
Clerics shine with this because they have Spirit Guardians, Inflict Wounds, Etc... that are built for you being in close.
Warlocks are similar especially with the TCoE spells.
Wizards just do not get a lot of spells that mix well with a gish perspective...hence why I think they added the Cantrip replacement for attack to the subclass to make it more viable to actually get into melee.
Well that was an interesting 4 page read of whiteroom comparisons. A few comments from the peanut gallery:
1) deep dive multiclasses in a game that typically ends at the end of tier 2 or somewhere in tier 3 are pretty much a waste as the see little or no real use and you wasted the entire campaign struggling to get there.
2) like bards, monks and sorcerors wizards gain something useful EVERY level, ( either an ability or a spell level) multi classing has severe penalties in terms of what you are giving up vs what you are getting further making deep dives into 2+ classes problematic.
3) most strong multiclass builds call for no more than a 3 level dip to get the added strengths without giving up much of the main class.
4) what we all (yes me too) frequently fail to do is to look not only at the gains at a level but also the losses at the top end that are being given up. This isn’t necessarily L17-20, if you know your ending at L15 then you should be looking at what your losing at L10-15 when judging value gained and lost.
5) try taking those same white room builds and try actually doing them step by step judging which is a better move NOW for the character - what am I gaining each way and what am I loosing/delaying with each alternative? This often Leads to a very different take on how effective the proposed builds are DURING play rather than at some “optimal” point.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Oh interesting I wonder why they made it different for grasp of Hadar than it is for repelling blast. Just pulling someone 10 feet closer doesnt sound as useful at getting distant targets in range anymore
Yes, but actually the bladesinger dessing is not for a pure gish. You are a Wizard that can be in melee, not a front line warrior that can use magic. The second concept suits better in an Eldritch Knigth.
So if you want to play a pure gish, you should choose Eldritch Knight as your main class and maybe some bladesinger levels (although I would recommend another wizard's subclass, actually).
To play a bladesinger, I don't recommend multiclassing. You lose more than you win.
Not a lot of point in an Eldritch Knight multiclass just because Eldritch Knight is so bad, but you could make it work. Certainly the first two fighter levels would be good. It's the third where my eyebrows go up, because Wizard 18 is a genuinely good level and giving it up is a big deal. Giving up the top 2 levels of Wizard for the first 2 of Fighter is so good it was a good idea for many builds before Bladesinger even existed, and it's certainly still true now. Action Surge is better than the Wizard capstone.
If we're discussing a build at level 20, I don't think any Bladesinger should give up Wizard 18 without due cause - slotless Shield is amazing on them. You'd need a truly stellar dip to compensate for losing that. But the wizard capstone is so weak that other options are worth discussing. For example, Wizard 19/Artificer 1 gets you Con save proficiency and in a campaign with firearms Pistol proficiency. That's pretty ok and doesn't require changing your stats at all. Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is great for any Wizard.
My point is not only the capstone, but that you slow down all your progression. And that in a full caster is very important. When you have, for example, a level 5 bladesinger / level 2 fighter, you should be fighting appropriate threats for level 7. But you are a bladesinger level 5 with action surge and a fighting style. In my opinion you are less competent than a bladesinger lvl 7.
In other wizard's subclasses you could discuss if the proficency in armor and shields is worth it. I think not, and you could also get it from other sources without compromising your progression. But it can be argued.
As for the constitution save, you should first start with the other class (artificer or fighter), losing the proficency in wisdom. For many wizards it can be a good deal. Not for the bladesinger. The bladesinger already has a nice constitution save.
In my opinion you mechanically lose out if you multiclass a wizard. It can work if you have something very specific in mind, or if you want to play in a specific way. But as a general rule you are losing more than you gain. And in the case of bladesinger / figther, you really gain very very little and lose a lot. I used to think like you, but many people argued against it and, by experimenting, I have realized that they were right.
Correct. A level 7 Bladesinger has extra attack (one of which you can use booming blade and greenflame blade), more spell slots, and 4th level spells.
The biggest gain from 2 Fighter is action surge. With action surge you can do things like double fireball. That's pretty cool, but not quite worth what you give up.
Also worth noting, all the weapons and armor proficiency you gain from Fighter is wasted. You can't hold a shield. You can't wear any other armor than Bladesinger allows. You can't use a weapon with two hands.
Without a dog cast in this fight <rimshot> and thinking out loud, what if the fighter dip took unarmed fighting style? I haven't crunched anything, but I like the idea of a Wizard who punches things. The Fistsinger takes the dance of the sweet science to a whole new level.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The biggest problem with that is that it’s a Wizard doing it not a fighter - not enough HP to stay in your face for very long - a skilled boxer with a glass jaw vs a street brawler.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Well "Wizard who punches thing" not "Pugilist who casts spells", but I understand what you're saying. Still, isn't that criticism the same one being leveled against all Fighter dips for Bladesinger (the impetus for this thread)? I'd say giving the punchy wizard two d8 weapons always on hand makes up for the whole Bladesinger inability to take advantage of shield or heavier armors without dropping bladesong than some of the other styles.
Mandatory backstory of course is "Character is not a monk because..."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.