I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
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I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
So 2d6 to start up to 5d6 at 17th level. And I think I’d prefer to not mix too many dice. I’d like this pool to really be their resource pool. I think this has the potential to be simple enough to not scare people, similar enough to existing design to get past the critics, but different enough from spells to give it a unique feel. People will feel like they have some control over the resource because they can choose how many dice to gamble on any given roll. And things that work in roughly familiar ways similar to Chanel Divinity and Eldritch Invocations would ease people into it, but we still wouldn’t have to rely on spells.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
I'd be super interested, but don't feel obligated to do so on my account. If you want to keep it between you and Levi, there'd be no hard feelings.
And yeah, I concur with keeping the dice as self-contained as possible, that would probably work best for what the dice are trying to accomplish.
I misread your post, I thought you said with a new mechanic you would ban it, if they removed it I'm glad then there is no new mechanic. Its probably best, IMO, as a "spell"...its thematic for Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers...I don't think Wizards should be able to access these new spells, they already have a ton of options. Psi fighters / thieves should be available play a Gith or Kalashtar, I don't think it applies to other races much like a dwarf can only be a battlerager.
You can ban whatever you want at your table...the whole purpose of this is to have fun, its a game, not a set of laws. My biggest complaint is 5e is already soo complicated with a million and counting races and subclasses. I like choice but its super hard to even master your own characters sometimes...if you watch streaming, there are many missed mechanics and abilities frequently even with experienced players / GMs.
I agree. Personally I think that most 5e players just wont take to a new class to fill this concept, and you have to add in the barrier that the players who come up with Psionic character concepts would need to learn a new mechanic and suddenly you are alienating tons of players. The survey results just don’t support it. The demographic has really shifted to friends focused on a narrative around a table, and they want the mechanics to work for them and not the other way around, so they can focus on the role play and story.
I believe we will see psionic subclasses based on different narrative backgrounds. Aberrant Mind hopefully returns (it was rated as highly satisfied and lowered with the changes they made) and Soul Knife and some version of a Psychic Fighter. I also think if we continue this path it would be cool to see a Psionic Bard based on Empathy, a Psionic Druid or Cleric that is a “Mystic” and a few other tropes in the other classes.
They said in this video that they want to appeal to both groups of players, which they said were:
Majority of players that don't want a new mechanic for these subclasses. They want simple psionics that plays just like any other 5e class in terms of simplicity.
Loud, but small, group of players that want a new mechanic. They're very vocal that they want more psionics in D&D and for it to be different from normal 5e play, but don't like the current version.
They then made it sound like they were going to go back to something like the original version of the Aberrant Mind, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife because that was the most common message that they got. They also said that they want to make the #2 category of people happy as well. (I am in that group)
What this sounds like to me is one of the following options:
Subclasses for other classes are simple, and similar in mechanics to normal 5e D&D subclasses. The people who want new mechanics will get a new class for psionics. (This seems like the best idea for me, personally. People who want simple psionics get what they want, people that want new mechanics get what they want as well.)
Subclasses will come with 2 variant version. One of them will be simple for most of the community that wants it simple, and the second version will be optional and use new mechanics and be more complicated. (This seems like the least possible option for them to do, and would satisfy me a bit, but I'd still be upset that we don't get a class)
They compromise on the subclasses, and make it a bit more complicated than normal subclass play, but not many new mechanics will be introduced. (This seems like the most likely option, but I really hope they don't do this. Almost no one wants this. Category 2 people don't want this, Category 1 people don't want this. Almost no one is happy or satisfied by this, but it's the easiest option.)
What do you think they'll do? Are there any more categories of people, or other options?
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I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
They tried out the Artificer as a Wizard a couple times. They turned it into a class, because people wanted it to be a class.
I know it's not the same, but they could split it to make everyone (mostly everyone, that is) happy.
Not really precedented, I know, but I think it's the best option for everyone.
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I think what will likely happen is that they will design 5-7 psychic subclasses for existing classes. I could see a Bard (Empathy), Cleric or Druid (Mystic), Fighter (Psychic Warrior), Ranger (Clairvoyant), Rogue (Soul Knife), Sorcerer (Aberrant, TK and TP), and Warlock (Great Old One getting mentioned). They will print those and see that there really isn’t much design space left for a full class. Adding the class will just add a second option for something they already exists and not be worth their time pursuing...
So then what they’ll do is assess, and realize that there is a small group of players who want an option that can be added to settings where psychic powers exist. I believe they will use Mythic Odyssey as reference and make a psionic system like it’s supernatural ability system. Psionic powers not limited to class or race, and received at first level, with its own “piety system” but calculated based on your psionic powers growing.
I think what will likely happen is that they will design 5-7 psychic subclasses for existing classes. I could see a Bard (Empathy), Cleric or Druid (Mystic), Fighter (Psychic Warrior), Ranger (Clairvoyant), Rogue (Soul Knife), Sorcerer (Aberrant, TK and TP), and Warlock (Great Old One getting mentioned). They will print those and see that there really isn’t much design space left for a full class. Adding the class will just add a second option for something they already exists and not be worth their time pursuing...
They said they want to make everyone happy, so it would be worth their time if they want to do just that. It wouldn't be a second option for something that already exists at all. Wizards exist, but that doesn't make Arcane Tricksters or Eldritch Knights unnecessary.
So then what they’ll do is assess, and realize that there is a small group of players who want an option that can be added to settings where psychic powers exist. I believe they will use Mythic Odyssey as reference and make a psionic system like it’s supernatural ability system. Psionic powers not limited to class or race, and received at first level, with its own “piety system” but calculated based on your psionic powers growing.
I really hope they do not do this. This would be similar to 1e, right? I don't see how they could do that and make anyone happy.
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Well, as far as psi-themed subclasses go, there's already the GOO Warlock and the Whispers Bard, and in UA we have Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, Astral Self Monk, Psychic Knight fighter and Soul Knife Rogue. That would leave Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard without a psi-themed subclass (not that none of these can't have one, but I can see WotC receiving pushback if they tried to add them). Personally, I think a purely subclass based approach still leaves plenty of holes to be filled. As for a theros-styled Psionic system...I dunno, I personally wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it depends on how many people end up liking that type of system, and I don't see how they would be able to do that without creating a serious imbalance between characters using this system and characters who don't; making a class would be much more simple, in my opinion.
I am continually let down by the overall 5e community. Despite how skeletal, sanded down, and almost insultingly simplified this game is, I consistently see/hear from the developers that "the majority" want the game to be even more so.Man. Feels real bad, knowing people somehow - SOMEHOW - can't get their heads around this game. Not just a few of them, most of them.
I hate gatekeeping bullshit, but constantly hearing from the dev team about how people want 5e to be less and less and less and less deep and complex almost makes me feel like the gatekeeping is going the other way these days - once you Git Gud enough, so to speak, you're not supposed to keep playing this game. Once you get to the point where you're craving something meatier and more engaging than a Champion fighter, 5e tells you to just go elsewhere and find a new ruleset because it's going to keep getting simpler instead of cooler.
Sucks major donkey ass. Oh well. Maybe at some point we'll get digital tools equivalent to DDB for games that are actually willing to respect their players' intelligence. One would've hoped a 'Psionic' ability set would've been allowed to appeal to players of a more cerebral bent, but apparently nah. Gotta be Champion Fighter simple again.
I try to keep optimistic, but I'm not gonna lie, the news about the psi dice feedback was very disheartening on soooooooooooooooooooooooo many levels...
I am continually let down by the overall 5e community. Despite how skeletal, sanded down, and almost insultingly simplified this game is, I consistently see/hear from the developers that "the majority" want the game to be even more so.Man. Feels real bad, knowing people somehow - SOMEHOW - can't get their heads around this game. Not just a few of them, most of them.
I hate gatekeeping bullshit, but constantly hearing from the dev team about how people want 5e to be less and less and less and less deep and complex almost makes me feel like the gatekeeping is going the other way these days - once you Git Gud enough, so to speak, you're not supposed to keep playing this game. Once you get to the point where you're craving something meatier and more engaging than a Champion fighter, 5e tells you to just go elsewhere and find a new ruleset because it's going to keep getting simpler instead of cooler.
Sucks major donkey ass. Oh well. Maybe at some point we'll get digital tools equivalent to DDB for games that are actually willing to respect their players' intelligence. One would've hoped a 'Psionic' ability set would've been allowed to appeal to players of a more cerebral bent, but apparently nah. Gotta be Champion Fighter simple again.
Well, as far as psi-themed subclasses go, there's already the GOO Warlock and the Whispers Bard, and in UA we have Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, Astral Self Monk, Psychic Knight fighter and Soul Knife Rogue. That would leave Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard without a psi-themed subclass (not that none of these can't have one, but I can see WotC receiving pushback if they tried to add them). Personally, I think a purely subclass based approach still leaves plenty of holes to be filled. As for a theros-styled Psionic system...I dunno, I personally wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it depends on how many people end up liking that type of system, and I don't see how they would be able to do that without creating a serious imbalance between characters using this system and characters who don't; making a class would be much more simple, in my opinion.
It would, in my opinion, likely come out as some sort of Dark Suns exclusive setting for the Psi System. To be clear, I don’t have a huge opinion on Psionics, this is just my opinion/prediction on what they will do... it’s “balanced” in the sense that all characters get this system at first level. The campaign setting would just be more difficult overall and a psionic system is added to balance that out. The way I see it is from a narrative perspective, not a game mechanics one. Psionic to me seems to not really be relevant to class. I should be able to be psychic AND an assassin rogue, for example, giving me tons of customization. Am I a telekinetic assassin? Telepathic? Am I a telekinetic barbarian, using it to enhance my strength? I don’t know, it’s the simplest answer that would get psionics in the game, require little balancing that would take years of playtesting found in the class option.
I haven't seen the video. But to be honest, the Psionic Talent die has grown on me since it was introduced. Wizards just did a miserable job explaining it in the UA document, which is bloody fraggin' typical of them. Had they simply said "the power of the mind is not as stable and predictable as ordinary, regimented spellwork; your Talent die ebbs and flows over time in tune with the Astral" rather than "you totally chose to roll a 1 or a [Maxdie] here, that was a conscious decision you made despite the fact that it probably screwed you over", there likely wouldn't have been half as much resistance to the Talent die. It would've been a potentially interesting twist, with a bit of design work.
But nah. let's make sure nobody who enjoys depth of play has anything to look forward to in 5e. Ugh.
Well, as far as psi-themed subclasses go, there's already the GOO Warlock and the Whispers Bard, and in UA we have Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, Astral Self Monk, Psychic Knight fighter and Soul Knife Rogue. That would leave Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard without a psi-themed subclass (not that none of these can't have one, but I can see WotC receiving pushback if they tried to add them). Personally, I think a purely subclass based approach still leaves plenty of holes to be filled. As for a theros-styled Psionic system...I dunno, I personally wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it depends on how many people end up liking that type of system, and I don't see how they would be able to do that without creating a serious imbalance between characters using this system and characters who don't; making a class would be much more simple, in my opinion.
It would, in my opinion, likely come out as some sort of Dark Suns exclusive setting for the Psi System. To be clear, I don’t have a huge opinion on Psionics, this is just my opinion/prediction on what they will do... it’s “balanced” in the sense that all characters get this system at first level. The campaign setting would just be more difficult overall and a psionic system is added to balance that out. The way I see it is from a narrative perspective, not a game mechanics one. Psionic to me seems to not really be relevant to class. I should be able to be psychic AND an assassin rogue, for example, giving me tons of customization. Am I a telekinetic assassin? Telepathic? Am I a telekinetic barbarian, using it to enhance my strength? I don’t know, it’s the simplest answer that would get psionics in the game, require little balancing that would take years of playtesting found in the class option.
I mean, there's already ways to do this. Gith exist, so do Kalashtar, and magic items can give you psionic-like powers. If you want to be a psionic assassin rogue, just be a kalashtar with a ring of telekinesis.
Feats could also help with this as well.
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Well, as far as psi-themed subclasses go, there's already the GOO Warlock and the Whispers Bard, and in UA we have Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, Astral Self Monk, Psychic Knight fighter and Soul Knife Rogue. That would leave Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard without a psi-themed subclass (not that none of these can't have one, but I can see WotC receiving pushback if they tried to add them). Personally, I think a purely subclass based approach still leaves plenty of holes to be filled. As for a theros-styled Psionic system...I dunno, I personally wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it depends on how many people end up liking that type of system, and I don't see how they would be able to do that without creating a serious imbalance between characters using this system and characters who don't; making a class would be much more simple, in my opinion.
It would, in my opinion, likely come out as some sort of Dark Suns exclusive setting for the Psi System. To be clear, I don’t have a huge opinion on Psionics, this is just my opinion/prediction on what they will do... it’s “balanced” in the sense that all characters get this system at first level. The campaign setting would just be more difficult overall and a psionic system is added to balance that out. The way I see it is from a narrative perspective, not a game mechanics one. Psionic to me seems to not really be relevant to class. I should be able to be psychic AND an assassin rogue, for example, giving me tons of customization. Am I a telekinetic assassin? Telepathic? Am I a telekinetic barbarian, using it to enhance my strength? I don’t know, it’s the simplest answer that would get psionics in the game, require little balancing that would take years of playtesting found in the class option.
I mean, there's already ways to do this. Gith exist, so do Kalashtar, and magic items can give you psionic-like powers. If you want to be a psionic assassin rogue, just be a kalashtar with a ring of telekinesis.
Feats could also help with this as well.
To be clear, I am describing something in addition. You could be an Elf, receive all the benefits of that racial choice, and select a class... say a Fighter. At first level, in the Dark Sun campaign setting (but DMs are welcome to include it in any setting they wish) you would receive a minor psionic ability. Make this its own thing, where you level it up based on practice, patience, training etc... While you can make a Gith, this would inherently be much more powerful on purpose to match the campaign setting.
I think this is likely what we would see, because the amount of players who would still want a Psion class after the release of 5-7 subclasses would probably be so small that its the system most easily designed and balanced. You aren't designing a class vs the other 13, you are just balancing additional features against each other, and as long as their average power remains somewhat consistent the DM can balance encounters throughout the campaign against slightly more powerful PCs.
I am continually let down by the overall 5e community. Despite how skeletal, sanded down, and almost insultingly simplified this game is, I consistently see/hear from the developers that "the majority" want the game to be even more so.Man. Feels real bad, knowing people somehow - SOMEHOW - can't get their heads around this game. Not just a few of them, most of them.
I hate gatekeeping bullshit, but constantly hearing from the dev team about how people want 5e to be less and less and less and less deep and complex almost makes me feel like the gatekeeping is going the other way these days - once you Git Gud enough, so to speak, you're not supposed to keep playing this game. Once you get to the point where you're craving something meatier and more engaging than a Champion fighter, 5e tells you to just go elsewhere and find a new ruleset because it's going to keep getting simpler instead of cooler.
Sucks major donkey ass. Oh well. Maybe at some point we'll get digital tools equivalent to DDB for games that are actually willing to respect their players' intelligence. One would've hoped a 'Psionic' ability set would've been allowed to appeal to players of a more cerebral bent, but apparently nah. Gotta be Champion Fighter simple again.
Just...so disappointing.
Well, the majority doesn't agree with more complicated mechanics... but I think your explanation of their reasoning might be a bit off. Its not that we can't understand the mechanics, its that it doesn't enhance or add anything to gameplay. If I want to play a "psychic" character, it matters very little to most players if those psychic powers come from spells or points. It doesn't add anything to roll a d6 and see if it gets bigger or smaller and keeping track of it. Its not that we aren't smart enough, its that most players aren't interested in the mechanic, but the narrative and flavor of the ability. We describe our combat as a "cinematic" experience, so the implementation of a "Psi Die" to a psychic ability isn't adding anything vs just being able to perform a psychic ability, other than adding something for the player to keep track.
Counterpoint: everything you could possibly do with the...three? Four? Core rules of 5e has already been done. There's no reason to continue introducing new subclasses if they're never allowed to do anything new, because everything already feels samey and bad. Yeah sure, I could SAY my sorcerer's power comes from psionic ability and fluff all their shit as Mynd Powerz, but the mechanics don't actually back that up at all, nor is there any reason to do so.
The Psionic Talent die, once one got over Wizards' incredibly shitty explanation for it, actually made a lot of sense as a defining mechanic for psionics. Something mechanical and concrete that set psychic characters apart. Not just "oh, take a bunch of bad psychic spells instead of all the spells that actually win fights", or "cast with your forehead instead of your hand". Something tangible, that set the character apart. That is itself an enhancement and addition to gameplay. If "the narrative and flavor of the ability" was enough, nobody would care that there's basically bum****le zero support in 5e for psychic/psionic characters.
Counterpoint: everything you could possibly do with the...three? Four? Core rules of 5e has already been done. There's no reason to continue introducing new subclasses if they're never allowed to do anything new, because everything already feels samey and bad. Yeah sure, I could SAY my sorcerer's power comes from psionic ability and fluff all their shit as Mynd Powerz, but the mechanics don't actually back that up at all, nor is there any reason to do so.
The Psionic Talent die, once one got over Wizards' incredibly shitty explanation for it, actually made a lot of sense as a defining mechanic for psionics. Something mechanical and concrete that set psychic characters apart. Not just "oh, take a bunch of bad psychic spells instead of all the spells that actually win fights", or "cast with your forehead instead of your hand". Something tangible, that set the character apart. That is itself an enhancement and addition to gameplay. If "the narrative and flavor of the ability" was enough, nobody would care that there's basically bum****le zero support in 5e for psychic/psionic characters.
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
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I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
So 2d6 to start up to 5d6 at 17th level. And I think I’d prefer to not mix too many dice. I’d like this pool to really be their resource pool. I think this has the potential to be simple enough to not scare people, similar enough to existing design to get past the critics, but different enough from spells to give it a unique feel. People will feel like they have some control over the resource because they can choose how many dice to gamble on any given roll. And things that work in roughly familiar ways similar to Chanel Divinity and Eldritch Invocations would ease people into it, but we still wouldn’t have to rely on spells.
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I agree. Personally I think that most 5e players just wont take to a new class to fill this concept, and you have to add in the barrier that the players who come up with Psionic character concepts would need to learn a new mechanic and suddenly you are alienating tons of players. The survey results just don’t support it. The demographic has really shifted to friends focused on a narrative around a table, and they want the mechanics to work for them and not the other way around, so they can focus on the role play and story.
I believe we will see psionic subclasses based on different narrative backgrounds. Aberrant Mind hopefully returns (it was rated as highly satisfied and lowered with the changes they made) and Soul Knife and some version of a Psychic Fighter. I also think if we continue this path it would be cool to see a Psionic Bard based on Empathy, a Psionic Druid or Cleric that is a “Mystic” and a few other tropes in the other classes.
They said in this video that they want to appeal to both groups of players, which they said were:
They then made it sound like they were going to go back to something like the original version of the Aberrant Mind, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife because that was the most common message that they got. They also said that they want to make the #2 category of people happy as well. (I am in that group)
What this sounds like to me is one of the following options:
What do you think they'll do? Are there any more categories of people, or other options?
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I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
They tried out the Artificer as a Wizard a couple times. They turned it into a class, because people wanted it to be a class.
I know it's not the same, but they could split it to make everyone (mostly everyone, that is) happy.
Not really precedented, I know, but I think it's the best option for everyone.
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I think what will likely happen is that they will design 5-7 psychic subclasses for existing classes. I could see a Bard (Empathy), Cleric or Druid (Mystic), Fighter (Psychic Warrior), Ranger (Clairvoyant), Rogue (Soul Knife), Sorcerer (Aberrant, TK and TP), and Warlock (Great Old One getting mentioned). They will print those and see that there really isn’t much design space left for a full class. Adding the class will just add a second option for something they already exists and not be worth their time pursuing...
So then what they’ll do is assess, and realize that there is a small group of players who want an option that can be added to settings where psychic powers exist. I believe they will use Mythic Odyssey as reference and make a psionic system like it’s supernatural ability system. Psionic powers not limited to class or race, and received at first level, with its own “piety system” but calculated based on your psionic powers growing.
They said they want to make everyone happy, so it would be worth their time if they want to do just that. It wouldn't be a second option for something that already exists at all. Wizards exist, but that doesn't make Arcane Tricksters or Eldritch Knights unnecessary.
I really hope they do not do this. This would be similar to 1e, right? I don't see how they could do that and make anyone happy.
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Well, as far as psi-themed subclasses go, there's already the GOO Warlock and the Whispers Bard, and in UA we have Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, Astral Self Monk, Psychic Knight fighter and Soul Knife Rogue. That would leave Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard without a psi-themed subclass (not that none of these can't have one, but I can see WotC receiving pushback if they tried to add them). Personally, I think a purely subclass based approach still leaves plenty of holes to be filled. As for a theros-styled Psionic system...I dunno, I personally wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it depends on how many people end up liking that type of system, and I don't see how they would be able to do that without creating a serious imbalance between characters using this system and characters who don't; making a class would be much more simple, in my opinion.
I am continually let down by the overall 5e community. Despite how skeletal, sanded down, and almost insultingly simplified this game is, I consistently see/hear from the developers that "the majority" want the game to be even more so. Man. Feels real bad, knowing people somehow - SOMEHOW - can't get their heads around this game. Not just a few of them, most of them.
I hate gatekeeping bullshit, but constantly hearing from the dev team about how people want 5e to be less and less and less and less deep and complex almost makes me feel like the gatekeeping is going the other way these days - once you Git Gud enough, so to speak, you're not supposed to keep playing this game. Once you get to the point where you're craving something meatier and more engaging than a Champion fighter, 5e tells you to just go elsewhere and find a new ruleset because it's going to keep getting simpler instead of cooler.
Sucks major donkey ass. Oh well. Maybe at some point we'll get digital tools equivalent to DDB for games that are actually willing to respect their players' intelligence. One would've hoped a 'Psionic' ability set would've been allowed to appeal to players of a more cerebral bent, but apparently nah. Gotta be Champion Fighter simple again.
Just...so disappointing.
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I try to keep optimistic, but I'm not gonna lie, the news about the psi dice feedback was very disheartening on soooooooooooooooooooooooo many levels...
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All of it. Every last word.
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It would, in my opinion, likely come out as some sort of Dark Suns exclusive setting for the Psi System. To be clear, I don’t have a huge opinion on Psionics, this is just my opinion/prediction on what they will do... it’s “balanced” in the sense that all characters get this system at first level. The campaign setting would just be more difficult overall and a psionic system is added to balance that out. The way I see it is from a narrative perspective, not a game mechanics one. Psionic to me seems to not really be relevant to class. I should be able to be psychic AND an assassin rogue, for example, giving me tons of customization. Am I a telekinetic assassin? Telepathic? Am I a telekinetic barbarian, using it to enhance my strength? I don’t know, it’s the simplest answer that would get psionics in the game, require little balancing that would take years of playtesting found in the class option.
I haven't seen the video. But to be honest, the Psionic Talent die has grown on me since it was introduced. Wizards just did a miserable job explaining it in the UA document, which is bloody fraggin' typical of them. Had they simply said "the power of the mind is not as stable and predictable as ordinary, regimented spellwork; your Talent die ebbs and flows over time in tune with the Astral" rather than "you totally chose to roll a 1 or a [Maxdie] here, that was a conscious decision you made despite the fact that it probably screwed you over", there likely wouldn't have been half as much resistance to the Talent die. It would've been a potentially interesting twist, with a bit of design work.
But nah. let's make sure nobody who enjoys depth of play has anything to look forward to in 5e. Ugh.
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I mean, there's already ways to do this. Gith exist, so do Kalashtar, and magic items can give you psionic-like powers. If you want to be a psionic assassin rogue, just be a kalashtar with a ring of telekinesis.
Feats could also help with this as well.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
To be clear, I am describing something in addition. You could be an Elf, receive all the benefits of that racial choice, and select a class... say a Fighter. At first level, in the Dark Sun campaign setting (but DMs are welcome to include it in any setting they wish) you would receive a minor psionic ability. Make this its own thing, where you level it up based on practice, patience, training etc... While you can make a Gith, this would inherently be much more powerful on purpose to match the campaign setting.
I think this is likely what we would see, because the amount of players who would still want a Psion class after the release of 5-7 subclasses would probably be so small that its the system most easily designed and balanced. You aren't designing a class vs the other 13, you are just balancing additional features against each other, and as long as their average power remains somewhat consistent the DM can balance encounters throughout the campaign against slightly more powerful PCs.
Well, the majority doesn't agree with more complicated mechanics... but I think your explanation of their reasoning might be a bit off. Its not that we can't understand the mechanics, its that it doesn't enhance or add anything to gameplay. If I want to play a "psychic" character, it matters very little to most players if those psychic powers come from spells or points. It doesn't add anything to roll a d6 and see if it gets bigger or smaller and keeping track of it. Its not that we aren't smart enough, its that most players aren't interested in the mechanic, but the narrative and flavor of the ability. We describe our combat as a "cinematic" experience, so the implementation of a "Psi Die" to a psychic ability isn't adding anything vs just being able to perform a psychic ability, other than adding something for the player to keep track.
Counterpoint: everything you could possibly do with the...three? Four? Core rules of 5e has already been done. There's no reason to continue introducing new subclasses if they're never allowed to do anything new, because everything already feels samey and bad. Yeah sure, I could SAY my sorcerer's power comes from psionic ability and fluff all their shit as Mynd Powerz, but the mechanics don't actually back that up at all, nor is there any reason to do so.
The Psionic Talent die, once one got over Wizards' incredibly shitty explanation for it, actually made a lot of sense as a defining mechanic for psionics. Something mechanical and concrete that set psychic characters apart. Not just "oh, take a bunch of bad psychic spells instead of all the spells that actually win fights", or "cast with your forehead instead of your hand". Something tangible, that set the character apart. That is itself an enhancement and addition to gameplay. If "the narrative and flavor of the ability" was enough, nobody would care that there's basically bum****le zero support in 5e for psychic/psionic characters.
Clearly that's not the case though, eh?
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All the thisses. All of them.
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