Ignoring all the babble... for me, the Psion, or people with psionic abilities, are the ones that harvest the raw power from their imagination, willpower, and knowledge, creating their own reality inside their mind and then exteriorize this reality to impose their own rules over the rules from this reality. Their mind is overall the source of their power, and then they search to expand that with exploration, study, and meditation, knowing themselves and pushing the borders in the mind is crucial to amplify their Psionic powers. Thus, Intelligence is important because this represents how much they understand their thoughts and how much raw information and imagination their mind possesses. I like to say that Psionics is magic, but definitively not arcane or divine...
Magic is about modifying reality and nature laws in a way that benefits the user, and then I like to compare reality with a book that contains everything that it is, was, will be or would be, all rules that command this world, and everything that it is or not possible. An arcanist finds the cracks, the little mistakes in the text, and then use arcane knowledge, a powerful bloodline or the power taken from a power patron to modify the text slightly to obtain a determinate result, as being capable of flying or causing a huge flames explosion. A divine caster obtains their power through some divinity or cosmic aspect from reality, using this as a canalize to modify the book text, but not altering this directly. A psionic create an alternate book in their mind and then write in the pages, take this and inserts in the original book. Of course, because of this I always imagine that psionics should be instantaneous effects, short-duration ones, or concentration, one time that the real book would try to remove that external pages far more violently, but with the liberty to do things considerate impossible for other kinds of casters.
Again, this is my interpretation, and how I explained this for people that asked me the differences between casters and manifesters (user from psionic powers).
Thanks this helps. I also was looking at previous editions and despite some of these ideas varying so much, I would say that if there were a Psion class, there are probably some things that would need to be done to adapt it over. This isn't a bad thing, but for it to make it through surveys it would just need to fit within their design philosophy.
When it comes to the "magic" of Psionics, I would agree that it is still magic, even though so many are against it. I do not see a whole new system getting implemented here. However, I would also argue that you can use the magic system in a way that might catch the exact same feeling of Psionics. Points are used here to attempt to make the "flexibility" of this class a reality. I understand that is what is being achieved by the design, but because most players don't use points and run off from the idea as their main spellcasting mechanic, it probably wouldn't fly (vs points for additional effects like Sorcerer or Monk). However, you could basically create this same idea in normal spellcasting. What if you gave Psion's a certain amount of spell levels they can cast per short or long rest (equal to their level let's say) and they follow the same spell level progression as a Warlock. The highest level spell you can cast and the highest level of spell you know are the same. So for example, at 10th level, you could cast two 5th level spells or two 4th level and a 2nd level etc.
I know this seems like its similar to points, and it is, but these are the simple changes that honestly would probably make it more appealing to the masses. If you tell a new player "Hey you can cast any spell up to the level on the table, but the total amount of spell levels you can cast can't add up past your level, but the total resets and short and long rests" it would be easier for most than learning a point system.
Ignoring all the babble... for me, the Psion, or people with psionic abilities, are the ones that harvest the raw power from their imagination, willpower, and knowledge, creating their own reality inside their mind and then exteriorize this reality to impose their own rules over the rules from this reality. Their mind is overall the source of their power, and then they search to expand that with exploration, study, and meditation, knowing themselves and pushing the borders in the mind is crucial to amplify their Psionic powers. Thus, Intelligence is important because this represents how much they understand their thoughts and how much raw information and imagination their mind possesses. I like to say that Psionics is magic, but definitively not arcane or divine...
Magic is about modifying reality and nature laws in a way that benefits the user, and then I like to compare reality with a book that contains everything that it is, was, will be or would be, all rules that command this world, and everything that it is or not possible. An arcanist finds the cracks, the little mistakes in the text, and then use arcane knowledge, a powerful bloodline or the power taken from a power patron to modify the text slightly to obtain a determinate result, as being capable of flying or causing a huge flames explosion. A divine caster obtains their power through some divinity or cosmic aspect from reality, using this as a canalize to modify the book text, but not altering this directly. A psionic create an alternate book in their mind and then write in the pages, take this and inserts in the original book. Of course, because of this I always imagine that psionics should be instantaneous effects, short-duration ones, or concentration, one time that the real book would try to remove that external pages far more violently, but with the liberty to do things considerate impossible for other kinds of casters.
Again, this is my interpretation, and how I explained this for people that asked me the differences between casters and manifesters (user from psionic powers).
Thanks this helps. I also was looking at previous editions and despite some of these ideas varying so much, I would say that if there were a Psion class, there are probably some things that would need to be done to adapt it over. This isn't a bad thing, but for it to make it through surveys it would just need to fit within their design philosophy.
It could fit with their design philosophy fairly easily. They just have to make it that way.
When it comes to the "magic" of Psionics, I would agree that it is still magic, even though so many are against it. I do not see a whole new system getting implemented here. However, I would also argue that you can use the magic system in a way that might catch the exact same feeling of Psionics. Points are used here to attempt to make the "flexibility" of this class a reality. I understand that is what is being achieved by the design, but because most players don't use points and run off from the idea as their main spellcasting mechanic, it probably wouldn't fly (vs points for additional effects like Sorcerer or Monk). However, you could basically create this same idea in normal spellcasting. What if you gave Psion's a certain amount of spell levels they can cast per short or long rest (equal to their level let's say) and they follow the same spell level progression as a Warlock. The highest level spell you can cast and the highest level of spell you know are the same. So for example, at 10th level, you could cast two 5th level spells or two 4th level and a 2nd level etc.
No, I'm not against psionics being magic. Psionics is magic. It's not spells, though. Magic=/=Spellcasting 100% of the time. Remember, +1 swords are magic, but they aren't spells. Arcane Archers use magic, but not spells. I want Psionics to have an alternate magic system, not just be spellcasting. D&D 5e's spellcasting system is not an overarching "magic system".
You could certainly create a Psion class using spellcasting, but I personally would not allow this. To me, and others, this isn't psionics.
I know this seems like its similar to points, and it is, but these are the simple changes that honestly would probably make it more appealing to the masses. If you tell a new player "Hey you can cast any spell up to the level on the table, but the total amount of spell levels you can cast can't add up past your level, but the total resets and short and long rests" it would be easier for most than learning a point system.
No, I don't think it would be appealing to the masses. The masses don't want a new class for psionics. The minority group I'm in does want one. If we do get one, we certainly don't want it to be spell-based.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
My point is that, If WOTC were to pursue the Psion, it would need to make it through playtesting and surveys too. If the masses give it bad results, I doubt they would ignore those survey results because certain players want it really really bad a certain way. They would change their design to match what people want until survey results passed. I would guess you would end up with an Intelligence based Ranged Monk or an Intelligence based Psychic Warlock. The Monk version would probably be the easiest, since many of its defenses against effects and deflecting attacks would make sense.
My point is that, If WOTC were to pursue the Psion, it would need to make it through playtesting and surveys too. If the masses give it bad results, I doubt they would ignore those survey results because certain players want it really really bad a certain way. They would change their design to match what people want until survey results passed. I would guess you would end up with an Intelligence based Ranged Monk or an Intelligence based Psychic Warlock. The Monk version would probably be the easiest, since many of its defenses against effects and deflecting attacks would make sense.
It's virtually impossible to get a psion that makes everyone happy. Even the psion crowd can't agree on what they want. The best question is, what is going to annoy the least amount of people.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
People say they don’t want a new mechanic for psionics, but....
Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
Totally, I think “new” is a relative term when it comes to design. Of course you will see new things, the question is how much is too much for the average player. We learned Psi Die mechanics is beyond that line, and I would assume a point like structure with the Mystic and it’s various abilities also was beyond that line.
People say they don’t want a new mechanic for psionics, but....
Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
That's not really relevant. The problem is that you know what you want, a psion. You can't as a group decide what a psion is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
People say they don’t want a new mechanic for psionics, but....
Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
That's not really relevant. The problem is that you know what you want, a psion. You can't as a group decide what a psion is.
You miss the point. In this analogy the “faster horses” are using Spellcasting mechanics to represent Psionics.
Mr Ford didn’t ask people how to design a Model-T. People didn’t even know they wanted “horseless carriages” until they rolled out of the plant at an affordable price. It shouldn’t be our jobs to tell WotC how to design the metaphorical equivalent of a horseless carriage (new mechanic for Psionics) and it shouldn’t matter how many people say “we don’t want a horseless carriage (new mechanic), we just want another breed of horse (another spellcaster).”
It’s their jobs to roll that horseless carriage out of the factory at an affordable price (simple enough mechanic that is also balanced) and then it’s our jobs to realize we didn’t know what we wanted until they gave it to us.
Have I clarified and stretched this analogy enough yet?
You know exactly what I am saying and are trolling at this point. Have a nice day.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You know exactly what I am saying and are trolling at this point. Have a nice day.
I am not trolling. My point is that they should worry less about “the masses” and more about making an interesting thing. We don’t have to agree on what they should do or how it should work.
I guarantee that if Henry Ford had taken surveys and tried to make a car that made everyone happy he wouldn’t have never made anything at all because people would have disagreed. He made a decision to manufacture cars instead of breeding faster horses. He produced his vision and now there are how many cars all over the world?
But if all they do is make another breed of horse (another spellcaster) then they shouldn’t go around calling it an “automobile” (Psionicist).
We don't have to design the Psion/Mystic, Crazy. That's not our job, and frankly the average player makes an absolutely godawful game designer. Players, especially the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster known as 'The Majority', are HORRIBLE - I repeat, HORRIBLE - at knowing what they want. They have no clue what it is they're looking for and any proposition they have to fix it is a grope in the dark at best.
The only thing you can rely on players knowing is whether or not they like something. Not why they like or dislike something, ONLY that they like or dislike it. A game designer - which is to say, something with training and experience in the field, working with other people of like training and experience - can make useful determinations from that, and from watching people play their game. That's the point of playtesting - it's not "throw a document out, wait thirteen minutes, then ask people what they think of the document before they could possibly have had a chance to PLAY with the material". It's "play this for me. let me watch what happens."
It's why Wizards' stance of "we're going to let the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster design our game for us, without any care taken to do actual game design work!" is so freaking infuriating. That is NOT OUR JOB, and collectively we're all ******* awful at it. Individual players may, occasionally, have decent ideas or helpful feedback, but the more voices start fighting to be heard from the writhing, sweaty neckbearded blob of unwholesome flesh soup that is 'The Majority', the less useful any of those specific voices are. A proper game designer should be ignoring that shit.
That is the entire point of a Community Manager - a CM's job is not just to be the mouthpiece of the company, a CM's job is to sift through the endless churning babble of the Blob Monster and collate the soup of negativity, Internet drama, pointless posturing and general bull****ery into a concise list of actionable points that represent general trends. They're a dataminer whose dataset is 'The Community'. Game developers needs CMs because game developers need to NOT deal with the Blob Monster face to face, themselves, or their game is straight-up going to suck.
We don't have to design the Psion/Mystic, Crazy. That's not our job, and frankly the average player makes an absolutely godawful game designer. Players, especially the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster known as 'The Majority', are HORRIBLE - I repeat, HORRIBLE - at knowing what they want. They have no clue what it is they're looking for and any proposition they have to fix it is a grope in the dark at best.
The only thing you can rely on players knowing is whether or not they like something. Not why they like or dislike something, ONLY that they like or dislike it. A game designer - which is to say, something with training and experience in the field, working with other people of like training and experience - can make useful determinations from that, and from watching people play their game. That's the point of playtesting - it's not "throw a document out, wait thirteen minutes, then ask people what they think of the document before they could possibly have had a chance to PLAY with the material". It's "play this for me. let me watch what happens."
It's why Wizards' stance of "we're going to let the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster design our game for us, without any care taken to do actual game design work!" is so freaking infuriating. That is NOT OUR JOB, and collectively we're all ******* awful at it. Individual players may, occasionally, have decent ideas or helpful feedback, but the more voices start fighting to be heard from the writhing, sweaty neckbearded blob of unwholesome flesh soup that is 'The Majority', the less useful any of those specific voices are. A proper game designer should be ignoring that shit.
That is the entire point of a Community Manager - a CM's job is not just to be the mouthpiece of the company, a CM's job is to sift through the endless churning babble of the Blob Monster and collate the soup of negativity, Internet drama, pointless posturing and general bull****ery into a concise list of actionable points that represent general trends. They're a dataminer whose dataset is 'The Community'. Game developers needs CMs because game developers need to NOT deal with the Blob Monster face to face, themselves, or their game is straight-up going to suck.
We don't have to design the Psion/Mystic, Crazy. That's not our job, and frankly the average player makes an absolutely godawful game designer. Players, especially the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster known as 'The Majority', are HORRIBLE - I repeat, HORRIBLE - at knowing what they want. They have no clue what it is they're looking for and any proposition they have to fix it is a grope in the dark at best.
The only thing you can rely on players knowing is whether or not they like something. Not why they like or dislike something, ONLY that they like or dislike it. A game designer - which is to say, something with training and experience in the field, working with other people of like training and experience - can make useful determinations from that, and from watching people play their game. That's the point of playtesting - it's not "throw a document out, wait thirteen minutes, then ask people what they think of the document before they could possibly have had a chance to PLAY with the material". It's "play this for me. let me watch what happens."
It's why Wizards' stance of "we're going to let the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster design our game for us, without any care taken to do actual game design work!" is so freaking infuriating. That is NOT OUR JOB, and collectively we're all ****ing awful at it. Individual players may, occasionally, have decent ideas or helpful feedback, but the more voices start fighting to be heard from the writhing, sweaty neckbearded blob of unwholesome flesh soup that is 'The Majority', the less useful any of those specific voices are. A proper game designer should be ignoring that shit.
That is the entire point of a Community Manager - a CM's job is not just to be the mouthpiece of the company, a CM's job is to sift through the endless churning babble of the Blob Monster and collate the soup of negativity, Internet drama, pointless posturing and general bull****ery into a concise list of actionable points that represent general trends. They're a dataminer whose dataset is 'The Community'. Game developers needs CMs because game developers need to NOT deal with the Blob Monster face to face, themselves, or their game is straight-up going to suck.
No. Exceptions.
*holds up a boombox and presses play*
*This Is America, by Childish Gambino begins playing at full volume*
It's a pretty important and well-established principle of game design that players (as a collective) don't really ever know what they want. Good feedback is "here's how I felt about this, here are the issues I had with it." It's not players' job to offer solutions, nor are players very good at that. As IamSposta says, it's literally the designers' job to give players what they aren't able to articulate their desire for. That's what game design is.
It's a pretty important and well-established principle of game design that players (as a collective) don't really ever know what they want. Good feedback is "here's how I felt about this, here are the issues I had with it." It's not players' job to offer solutions, nor are players very good at that. As IamSposta says, it's literally the designers' job to give players what they aren't able to articulate their desire for. That's what game design is.
That may be true. I guess we will just have to wait and see what we want when they release the material. It goes both ways on this point though, maybe the players that want a full Psion class and unique mechanics don't know that they will be fine with subclasses yet. We will have to see what the overall response is when they do that.
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I personally thought that the first Psi Knight's abilities would fit better on a paladin than a fighter subclass.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I am guessing we are going to se the something closer to the Psychic Warrior, people just preferred the UA before the Psi Die mechanic.
Thanks this helps. I also was looking at previous editions and despite some of these ideas varying so much, I would say that if there were a Psion class, there are probably some things that would need to be done to adapt it over. This isn't a bad thing, but for it to make it through surveys it would just need to fit within their design philosophy.
When it comes to the "magic" of Psionics, I would agree that it is still magic, even though so many are against it. I do not see a whole new system getting implemented here. However, I would also argue that you can use the magic system in a way that might catch the exact same feeling of Psionics. Points are used here to attempt to make the "flexibility" of this class a reality. I understand that is what is being achieved by the design, but because most players don't use points and run off from the idea as their main spellcasting mechanic, it probably wouldn't fly (vs points for additional effects like Sorcerer or Monk). However, you could basically create this same idea in normal spellcasting. What if you gave Psion's a certain amount of spell levels they can cast per short or long rest (equal to their level let's say) and they follow the same spell level progression as a Warlock. The highest level spell you can cast and the highest level of spell you know are the same. So for example, at 10th level, you could cast two 5th level spells or two 4th level and a 2nd level etc.
I know this seems like its similar to points, and it is, but these are the simple changes that honestly would probably make it more appealing to the masses. If you tell a new player "Hey you can cast any spell up to the level on the table, but the total amount of spell levels you can cast can't add up past your level, but the total resets and short and long rests" it would be easier for most than learning a point system.
Positron, what you said is basically the Tormenta 20 magic system, a Brazilian RPG being launched this month.
It could fit with their design philosophy fairly easily. They just have to make it that way.
No, I'm not against psionics being magic. Psionics is magic. It's not spells, though. Magic=/=Spellcasting 100% of the time. Remember, +1 swords are magic, but they aren't spells. Arcane Archers use magic, but not spells. I want Psionics to have an alternate magic system, not just be spellcasting. D&D 5e's spellcasting system is not an overarching "magic system".
You could certainly create a Psion class using spellcasting, but I personally would not allow this. To me, and others, this isn't psionics.
No, I don't think it would be appealing to the masses. The masses don't want a new class for psionics. The minority group I'm in does want one. If we do get one, we certainly don't want it to be spell-based.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
My point is that, If WOTC were to pursue the Psion, it would need to make it through playtesting and surveys too. If the masses give it bad results, I doubt they would ignore those survey results because certain players want it really really bad a certain way. They would change their design to match what people want until survey results passed. I would guess you would end up with an Intelligence based Ranged Monk or an Intelligence based Psychic Warlock. The Monk version would probably be the easiest, since many of its defenses against effects and deflecting attacks would make sense.
It's virtually impossible to get a psion that makes everyone happy. Even the psion crowd can't agree on what they want. The best question is, what is going to annoy the least amount of people.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
People say they don’t want a new mechanic for psionics, but....
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Totally, I think “new” is a relative term when it comes to design. Of course you will see new things, the question is how much is too much for the average player. We learned Psi Die mechanics is beyond that line, and I would assume a point like structure with the Mystic and it’s various abilities also was beyond that line.
That's not really relevant. The problem is that you know what you want, a psion. You can't as a group decide what a psion is.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You miss the point. In this analogy the “faster horses” are using Spellcasting mechanics to represent Psionics.
Mr Ford didn’t ask people how to design a Model-T. People didn’t even know they wanted “horseless carriages” until they rolled out of the plant at an affordable price. It shouldn’t be our jobs to tell WotC how to design the metaphorical equivalent of a horseless carriage (new mechanic for Psionics) and it shouldn’t matter how many people say “we don’t want a horseless carriage (new mechanic), we just want another breed of horse (another spellcaster).”
It’s their jobs to roll that horseless carriage out of the factory at an affordable price (simple enough mechanic that is also balanced) and then it’s our jobs to realize we didn’t know what we wanted until they gave it to us.
Have I clarified and stretched this analogy enough yet?
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*eye roll*
You know exactly what I am saying and are trolling at this point. Have a nice day.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I am not trolling. My point is that they should worry less about “the masses” and more about making an interesting thing. We don’t have to agree on what they should do or how it should work.
I guarantee that if Henry Ford had taken surveys and tried to make a car that made everyone happy he wouldn’t have never made anything at all because people would have disagreed. He made a decision to manufacture cars instead of breeding faster horses. He produced his vision and now there are how many cars all over the world?
But if all they do is make another breed of horse (another spellcaster) then they shouldn’t go around calling it an “automobile” (Psionicist).
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
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We don't have to design the Psion/Mystic, Crazy. That's not our job, and frankly the average player makes an absolutely godawful game designer. Players, especially the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster known as 'The Majority', are HORRIBLE - I repeat, HORRIBLE - at knowing what they want. They have no clue what it is they're looking for and any proposition they have to fix it is a grope in the dark at best.
The only thing you can rely on players knowing is whether or not they like something. Not why they like or dislike something, ONLY that they like or dislike it. A game designer - which is to say, something with training and experience in the field, working with other people of like training and experience - can make useful determinations from that, and from watching people play their game. That's the point of playtesting - it's not "throw a document out, wait thirteen minutes, then ask people what they think of the document before they could possibly have had a chance to PLAY with the material". It's "play this for me. let me watch what happens."
It's why Wizards' stance of "we're going to let the mindless faceless Internet Blob Monster design our game for us, without any care taken to do actual game design work!" is so freaking infuriating. That is NOT OUR JOB, and collectively we're all ******* awful at it. Individual players may, occasionally, have decent ideas or helpful feedback, but the more voices start fighting to be heard from the writhing, sweaty neckbearded blob of unwholesome flesh soup that is 'The Majority', the less useful any of those specific voices are. A proper game designer should be ignoring that shit.
That is the entire point of a Community Manager - a CM's job is not just to be the mouthpiece of the company, a CM's job is to sift through the endless churning babble of the Blob Monster and collate the soup of negativity, Internet drama, pointless posturing and general bull****ery into a concise list of actionable points that represent general trends. They're a dataminer whose dataset is 'The Community'. Game developers needs CMs because game developers need to NOT deal with the Blob Monster face to face, themselves, or their game is straight-up going to suck.
No. Exceptions.
Please do not contact or message me.
This^^ Every last frickin’ word of it.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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*holds up a boombox and presses play*
*This Is America, by Childish Gambino begins playing at full volume*
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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It's a pretty important and well-established principle of game design that players (as a collective) don't really ever know what they want. Good feedback is "here's how I felt about this, here are the issues I had with it." It's not players' job to offer solutions, nor are players very good at that. As IamSposta says, it's literally the designers' job to give players what they aren't able to articulate their desire for. That's what game design is.
I think Yurei articulated the point better than I did, so I’ll pass the credit onto them.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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That may be true. I guess we will just have to wait and see what we want when they release the material. It goes both ways on this point though, maybe the players that want a full Psion class and unique mechanics don't know that they will be fine with subclasses yet. We will have to see what the overall response is when they do that.