This thread was inspired by the Atheist/Non-Theist Paladin thread, but is more meant to have a general discussion about having Nay-Theist and Flat-Earth Atheist characters in campaigns, and how they differ from world to world. Links to explanations of the definitions of these character types are provided in their names above, but I will simplify it a bit for those who tend to not click on off-site links in the spoilers below.
Definition of Nay-Theist:
A person that acknowledges the existence of a deity (or deities) in a world that truly has one/them, but refuses to worship them (for a variety of reasons). The "nay" in the name isn't about the existence of the deities, it's about the individual's worship of them.
Definition of Flat-Earth Atheist:
A person that lives in a world that truly has a deity/multiple deities but refuses to acknowledge their existence or believe in them. This is called "Flat-Earth Atheism" due to the fact that we live on a spherical/(oblate ellipsoid) world, but Flat Earthers still exist and profess that the earth is flat.
(Note: This thread is not meant for bashing Flat-Earthers, it is to discuss these different types of characters in D&D worlds/campaigns. I did not coin these names, so don't get angry at me for the name if you believe that the Earth is flat. Also a note, this thread is not for discussing any real life religious beliefs.)
The major thing that you should keep in mind is that "Atheists/Agnostics" that exist in D&D don't have to be either of these characters. A genuine Atheist similar to one in real life could exist in D&D settings where the existence of the deities is more vague and undetermined, like Eberron (the angels don't even know if the gods exist). A Nay-Theist in Eberron would be someone that believes that the gods exist, but doesn't worship them, while a Flat-Earth Atheist could not exist in Eberron (unless a Flat-Earth Atheist from a world that obviously has deities somehow manages to travel to Eberron, that is).
The major D&D worlds that obviously have deities are the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Theros, Exandria, Dragonlance, Nentir Vale, and Ravenloft, while the ones that are less clear in whether or not they have actual deities are Ravnica and Eberron. Dark Sun used to have deities, but they're gone now, so characters that are Nay-Theists or Flat-Earth Atheists are things of the past. Mystara doesn't have deities, and instead has Immortals, so "Nay-Theists" would basically be those that refuse to serve the Immortals, and Flat-Earth Atheists wouldn't exist, instead having the possibility of Flat-Earth Theists, as people that believe that god(s) exist in the setting, even though they definitively do not.
So, now that we've covered the definitions of these characters and briefly went over where they can and cannot exist, I'll briefly cover that a Nay-Theist/Flat-Earth Atheist can be a paladin or cleric, as presented in the PHB describing, "Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god," and Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica describing the world's clerics as most often being "dedicated to more abstract principles" instead of to deities. (Paladins get their power from devotion to an oath and obeying its tenets, while a cleric gets its power through worship of a deity or devoting your life to a universal concept, like Life, Light, Death, Peace, and so on.)
Mythic Odysseys of Theros even says, "No one can deny the reality of the gods of Theros, whose presence and deeds are visible in the night sky and sometimes directly in the mortal realm. But some people [Iconoclasts] refute the idea that the gods are worthy of reverence", making the existence of such Nay-Theists "canon" for 5e (and Flat-Earth Atheists in Theros would be like a Flat-Earther on a world much smaller than Earth, where the planet's curvature is much more apparent than it is on Earth).
So, what are your thoughts on this? How common are such characters in your world(s)? (I also assume that Nay-Theists are much more common than Flat-Earth Atheists.) Have you ever incorporated such characters in your campaigns? These characters do inspire characters/factions for me, and I want to know what the community thinks of it and what ideas you have.
The world is the forgotten realms, but in the process of modernizing into ravnica. There are two factions: Those who want to modernize, and those who don't want change. Both sides have reasoning and good, but the extremes become problematic. Burning of culture, banning religions, genetic experimentation, inhuman science are practiced by the most corrupt modernizers. Anarchy, religious government, murders, refusal to help, etc. I think a good thing to do would be giving both sides morality, but also showing the corruption of the extremists. This will let the players choose, and come to a better conclusion to their story.
Never encountered a "Flat-Earth Atheist", but plenty of "Nay-Theists".
"Flat-Earth Atheists" would make for irritating NPCs, but could be a funny adventurer. Maybe someone who rolled a very low Wisdom score.
"Nay-Theists" feel like the stereotypical archmagi. Characters who believe that they can become powerful enough to rival the gods through the study of Arcane magic. They may work with the Gods as patrons and partners, such as accepting aid from Mystra, who would want them to advance the study of magic regardless of their worship.
The explicit act of "worship" and simply living a life that aligns with the ideals of a particular deity may be materially different, but may also be indistinguishable on a cosmic level.
Well, there would obviously be possible for both to exist in any given setting (unless the deities actively smite people like that) just like there are people in the real world who claim that the earth is flat, and so on.
That said, nay-theists are usually more common in these settings and I've played a few and I have plans for a few more. Haven't really played a "proper" FEA but I guess it could be done. It could be someone who thinks that there might be something else that is actually the cause for all the things that mortals percieve as "gods". How do we know that they're just not really powerful wizards, for example?
I actually play a Nay-theist paladin! He is a blast! He is an aasimar that was taken into the church at a young age, but after some sort of coup? (My character doesn't know the details) The current head priest was replaced and they imprisoned him. They then put binding wards on him and forced him to do their bidding and after a while he ended up being their hit man. Anyway, all of that has not put a great view of the gods into him...
Naytheism seems inevitable in a setting with physical/incarnate gods. In such a world the gods would simply be part of the world - extraordinarily powerful and influential, yes, but few people in the modern era worship fundamental forces of nature. Respect is due, the same way you respect a hurricane, but not necessarily worship or fealty.
This is, of course, assuming the gods do not actively campaign for worshippers. In many settings the gods' power is dervied in large part, if not entirely, from their collective worshippers. IN at least a few of those settings the gods generally attempt to force mortals to choose a deity to devote themselves to and often compete fiercely for such worshippers. Remember - in medieval times, not believing in God was held to be a high crime, and not believing in any god was held to be worse. The people themselves might well see naytheism as a cruel and self-centered stance harmful to both the gods and the societies that the gods protect/hold up.
Flat-earth atheism makes less sense, but it's also generally held up as "a stubborn refusal to believe in the existence of gods despite obvious evidence to the contrarey", i.e. 'there's no such thing as gods!' Frankly, I believe the line between naytheism and Flaetheism to be much blurrier than that. Someone can disbelieve that the gods conform to the ideas of true gods without disbelieving in their existence entirely. One excellent example (sort of) is the Krynn Dynasty's belief in the Luxon, in Exandria. They do not hold the typical Exandrian pantheon to be Almighty Creators, but rather just splintered leftovers from the true Creator who are jealously hoarding mortal souls to prop themselves up and preventing mortals from living up to their true potential. 'Gods' in the sense of being powerful and influential, but not 'gods' in the sense of being creators deserving of worship. "You are no damn god" rather than "there's no such thing as gods".
Some would say that's simply rebranded naytheism, and they may be right. It's why I say the line between naytheism and flaetheism is blurrier than it may appear. The reasons a person rejects worship of the gods can be varied and interrelated, but they all lead to the same place from a religious/'believer' perspective - heresy/apostasy/whatever the word is for "criminal lack of belief". After all, as everybody's favorite Saiyan said (at the top of his pint-sized little Saiyan lungs):
I agree that Naytheism is almost always going to be more common than Flat-Earth Atheism, as I said in the OP. Nay-Theists are just anyone who believes that the gods exist, but doesn't worship/believe in them. The line between the two can get a bit fuzzy, but most often people can be easily assigned into these two categories if they exist in a fantasy world that definitely has deities, but the individual doesn't worship any of them. The main part where it gets fuzzy is when someone believes that the gods/deities are just powerful individuals, not true gods (similar to Sam in the Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard series, who is a devout Muslim daughter of Loki, but refuses to acknowledge that the gods are gods, instead just thinking that they are just really powerful entities).
A similar thing could happen in the Forgotten Realms, where a person could believe that the Gods are just powerful individuals (similar to Demon Lords or Archdevils), having the "true God" of the Forgotten Realms be Ao the Overgod (who basically has no worshippers, and doesn't depend on mortal prayers).
The Kryn Dynasty is a good example, but I don't think they fit into any definition of "atheist", as they do venerate the Luxon. (Quick correction, Yurei. It's the Kryn dynasty, with one n. Krynn with two n's is the planet of the Dragonlance setting.) They worship the Luxon, and believe that it is the font of all life in the world (I wasn't aware that they believed the Gods were created through/by the Luxon, but I did know that they believe that the Primordials were created by the Luxon). They would be similar to Sam from the Magnus Chase series, believing that the world's pantheon is just a bunch of powerful, mostly-immortal entities, but they're still Theists that worship a higher power. They'd more fit into a Theist saying "Your god isn't the true one, even if they exist. Mine is the true one, because it's more powerful and/or older."
These definitions rely on the definition of a deity/god, which I'm using from the DMG's Divine Rank side-bar. The definition of a god is a bit iffy, as the line between a Demon Lord/Archdevil and a "True Deity" is very poorly defined. D&D tends to have "true gods" (Greater and Lesser Deities) be capable of having Clerics, while "Quasideities" typically just have Warlocks. However, Exandrian Demigods can have clerics (most notably Jester as the Trickery Domain Cleric of the Traveler), and lots of D&D worlds have Clerics that don't worship a deity; instead worshipping an aspect of the universe, which makes the definition even poorer.
So, yeah, this is a hard question to answer. A person who is aware that entities that call themselves a god (or are called gods by others) truly exist, but doesn't worship them and justifies it by saying "they're not true deities, they're just powerful immortal beings/manifestations of the universe" doesn't really fall into a Flat-Earth Atheist or a Naytheist, possibly being a little of both. If the Kryn Dynasty didn't worship the Luxon, they would probably be Nay-Theists, but they do worship the Luxon, making them just a variant type of Theists in Exandria.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
If I was homebrewing. The Nay people when died they would go into the wall of faithless but healing spells would work on them. So no raises. The Flats no healing and no raises. Divine casters would have to pick at least one gawd.
Haven't really played a "proper" FEA but I guess it could be done. It could be someone who thinks that there might be something else that is actually the cause for all the things that mortals percieve as "gods". How do we know that they're just not really powerful wizards, for example?
This is more along the lines of what I picture for FEA. They don't all have to be dumb comic relief. The "God Conspiracy" character could still be played humorously, but it doesn't have to be. It makes a lot of sense that the most powerful creatures in the realm might want to convince everyone they are omnipotent gods and thus challenging their rule would be impossible for any mere mortal. Hell, plenty of IRL historic rulers have claimed godhood.
The other FEA I think would be compelling is someone who was essentially estranged from the gods due to a grudge or a perceived injustice. Like in a family that had a falling out, you can have a father that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge his son's existence and pointedly ignores his presence. This trope pops up a lot in heroic tales. Of course you can call that Naytheism because they are only acting like the gods don't exist, but I agree with Yurei that it's a blurry line since your behavior is going to be the same as an FEA. It's just the subtext that's different (which makes it more interesting IMO). I played a sailor like this once who turned his back on the gods because his entire crew died at sea. By all outward appearances, he didn't believe in the gods at all, but inwardly his anger at the gods was consuming him.
Haven't really played a "proper" FEA but I guess it could be done. It could be someone who thinks that there might be something else that is actually the cause for all the things that mortals percieve as "gods". How do we know that they're just not really powerful wizards, for example?
This is more along the lines of what I picture for FEA. They don't all have to be dumb comic relief. The "God Conspiracy" character could still be played humorously, but it doesn't have to be. It makes a lot of sense that the most powerful creatures in the realm might want to convince everyone they are omnipotent gods and thus challenging their rule would be impossible for any mere mortal. Hell, plenty of IRL historic rulers have claimed godhood.
The other FEA I think would be compelling is someone who was essentially estranged from the gods due to a grudge or a perceived injustice. Like in a family that had a falling out, you can have a father that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge his son's existence and pointedly ignores his presence. This trope pops up a lot in heroic tales. Of course you can call that Naytheism because they are only acting like the gods don't exist, but I agree with Yurei that it's a blurry line since your behavior is going to be the same as an FEA. It's just the subtext that's different (which makes it more interesting IMO). I played a sailor like this once who turned his back on the gods because his entire crew died at sea. By all outward appearances, he didn't believe in the gods at all, but inwardly his anger at the gods was consuming him.
Yeah, the line can be somewhat blurry but I agree that it can be interesting with a bit more variation. Of course, it would depend quite a bit on how you run your campaign and what your setting is like. If nothing else it can open up for some interesting theological debates in-game. Group A really believes that their gods are actual gods (and they have clerics and paladins and everything so it must be true!) but group B thinks that A's gods are just imposters and B *also* have clerics and paladins and everything. Meanwhile group C is like "you're both wrong". :D
This thread was inspired by the Atheist/Non-Theist Paladin thread, but is more meant to have a general discussion about having Nay-Theist and Flat-Earth Atheist characters in campaigns, and how they differ from world to world. Links to explanations of the definitions of these character types are provided in their names above, but I will simplify it a bit for those who tend to not click on off-site links in the spoilers below.
Definition of Nay-Theist:
A person that acknowledges the existence of a deity (or deities) in a world that truly has one/them, but refuses to worship them (for a variety of reasons). The "nay" in the name isn't about the existence of the deities, it's about the individual's worship of them.
Definition of Flat-Earth Atheist:
A person that lives in a world that truly has a deity/multiple deities but refuses to acknowledge their existence or believe in them. This is called "Flat-Earth Atheism" due to the fact that we live on a spherical/(oblate ellipsoid) world, but Flat Earthers still exist and profess that the earth is flat.
(Note: This thread is not meant for bashing Flat-Earthers, it is to discuss these different types of characters in D&D worlds/campaigns. I did not coin these names, so don't get angry at me for the name if you believe that the Earth is flat. Also a note, this thread is not for discussing any real life religious beliefs.)
The major thing that you should keep in mind is that "Atheists/Agnostics" that exist in D&D don't have to be either of these characters. A genuine Atheist similar to one in real life could exist in D&D settings where the existence of the deities is more vague and undetermined, like Eberron (the angels don't even know if the gods exist). A Nay-Theist in Eberron would be someone that believes that the gods exist, but doesn't worship them, while a Flat-Earth Atheist could not exist in Eberron (unless a Flat-Earth Atheist from a world that obviously has deities somehow manages to travel to Eberron, that is).
The major D&D worlds that obviously have deities are the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Theros, Exandria, Dragonlance, Nentir Vale, and Ravenloft, while the ones that are less clear in whether or not they have actual deities are Ravnica and Eberron. Dark Sun used to have deities, but they're gone now, so characters that are Nay-Theists or Flat-Earth Atheists are things of the past. Mystara doesn't have deities, and instead has Immortals, so "Nay-Theists" would basically be those that refuse to serve the Immortals, and Flat-Earth Atheists wouldn't exist, instead having the possibility of Flat-Earth Theists, as people that believe that god(s) exist in the setting, even though they definitively do not.
So, now that we've covered the definitions of these characters and briefly went over where they can and cannot exist, I'll briefly cover that a Nay-Theist/Flat-Earth Atheist can be a paladin or cleric, as presented in the PHB describing, "Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god," and Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica describing the world's clerics as most often being "dedicated to more abstract principles" instead of to deities. (Paladins get their power from devotion to an oath and obeying its tenets, while a cleric gets its power through worship of a deity or devoting your life to a universal concept, like Life, Light, Death, Peace, and so on.)
Mythic Odysseys of Theros even says, "No one can deny the reality of the gods of Theros, whose presence and deeds are visible in the night sky and sometimes directly in the mortal realm. But some people [Iconoclasts] refute the idea that the gods are worthy of reverence", making the existence of such Nay-Theists "canon" for 5e (and Flat-Earth Atheists in Theros would be like a Flat-Earther on a world much smaller than Earth, where the planet's curvature is much more apparent than it is on Earth).
So, what are your thoughts on this? How common are such characters in your world(s)? (I also assume that Nay-Theists are much more common than Flat-Earth Atheists.) Have you ever incorporated such characters in your campaigns? These characters do inspire characters/factions for me, and I want to know what the community thinks of it and what ideas you have.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I play in a world kind of like that.
The world is the forgotten realms, but in the process of modernizing into ravnica. There are two factions: Those who want to modernize, and those who don't want change. Both sides have reasoning and good, but the extremes become problematic. Burning of culture, banning religions, genetic experimentation, inhuman science are practiced by the most corrupt modernizers. Anarchy, religious government, murders, refusal to help, etc. I think a good thing to do would be giving both sides morality, but also showing the corruption of the extremists. This will let the players choose, and come to a better conclusion to their story.
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
Never encountered a "Flat-Earth Atheist", but plenty of "Nay-Theists".
"Flat-Earth Atheists" would make for irritating NPCs, but could be a funny adventurer. Maybe someone who rolled a very low Wisdom score.
"Nay-Theists" feel like the stereotypical archmagi. Characters who believe that they can become powerful enough to rival the gods through the study of Arcane magic. They may work with the Gods as patrons and partners, such as accepting aid from Mystra, who would want them to advance the study of magic regardless of their worship.
The explicit act of "worship" and simply living a life that aligns with the ideals of a particular deity may be materially different, but may also be indistinguishable on a cosmic level.
Well, there would obviously be possible for both to exist in any given setting (unless the deities actively smite people like that) just like there are people in the real world who claim that the earth is flat, and so on.
That said, nay-theists are usually more common in these settings and I've played a few and I have plans for a few more. Haven't really played a "proper" FEA but I guess it could be done. It could be someone who thinks that there might be something else that is actually the cause for all the things that mortals percieve as "gods". How do we know that they're just not really powerful wizards, for example?
I actually play a Nay-theist paladin! He is a blast! He is an aasimar that was taken into the church at a young age, but after some sort of coup? (My character doesn't know the details) The current head priest was replaced and they imprisoned him. They then put binding wards on him and forced him to do their bidding and after a while he ended up being their hit man. Anyway, all of that has not put a great view of the gods into him...
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Naytheism seems inevitable in a setting with physical/incarnate gods. In such a world the gods would simply be part of the world - extraordinarily powerful and influential, yes, but few people in the modern era worship fundamental forces of nature. Respect is due, the same way you respect a hurricane, but not necessarily worship or fealty.
This is, of course, assuming the gods do not actively campaign for worshippers. In many settings the gods' power is dervied in large part, if not entirely, from their collective worshippers. IN at least a few of those settings the gods generally attempt to force mortals to choose a deity to devote themselves to and often compete fiercely for such worshippers. Remember - in medieval times, not believing in God was held to be a high crime, and not believing in any god was held to be worse. The people themselves might well see naytheism as a cruel and self-centered stance harmful to both the gods and the societies that the gods protect/hold up.
Flat-earth atheism makes less sense, but it's also generally held up as "a stubborn refusal to believe in the existence of gods despite obvious evidence to the contrarey", i.e. 'there's no such thing as gods!' Frankly, I believe the line between naytheism and Flaetheism to be much blurrier than that. Someone can disbelieve that the gods conform to the ideas of true gods without disbelieving in their existence entirely. One excellent example (sort of) is the Krynn Dynasty's belief in the Luxon, in Exandria. They do not hold the typical Exandrian pantheon to be Almighty Creators, but rather just splintered leftovers from the true Creator who are jealously hoarding mortal souls to prop themselves up and preventing mortals from living up to their true potential. 'Gods' in the sense of being powerful and influential, but not 'gods' in the sense of being creators deserving of worship. "You are no damn god" rather than "there's no such thing as gods".
Some would say that's simply rebranded naytheism, and they may be right. It's why I say the line between naytheism and flaetheism is blurrier than it may appear. The reasons a person rejects worship of the gods can be varied and interrelated, but they all lead to the same place from a religious/'believer' perspective - heresy/apostasy/whatever the word is for "criminal lack of belief". After all, as everybody's favorite Saiyan said (at the top of his pint-sized little Saiyan lungs):
"WHAT IS A GOD TO A NONBELIEVER?!"
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I agree that Naytheism is almost always going to be more common than Flat-Earth Atheism, as I said in the OP. Nay-Theists are just anyone who believes that the gods exist, but doesn't worship/believe in them. The line between the two can get a bit fuzzy, but most often people can be easily assigned into these two categories if they exist in a fantasy world that definitely has deities, but the individual doesn't worship any of them. The main part where it gets fuzzy is when someone believes that the gods/deities are just powerful individuals, not true gods (similar to Sam in the Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard series, who is a devout Muslim daughter of Loki, but refuses to acknowledge that the gods are gods, instead just thinking that they are just really powerful entities).
A similar thing could happen in the Forgotten Realms, where a person could believe that the Gods are just powerful individuals (similar to Demon Lords or Archdevils), having the "true God" of the Forgotten Realms be Ao the Overgod (who basically has no worshippers, and doesn't depend on mortal prayers).
The Kryn Dynasty is a good example, but I don't think they fit into any definition of "atheist", as they do venerate the Luxon. (Quick correction, Yurei. It's the Kryn dynasty, with one n. Krynn with two n's is the planet of the Dragonlance setting.) They worship the Luxon, and believe that it is the font of all life in the world (I wasn't aware that they believed the Gods were created through/by the Luxon, but I did know that they believe that the Primordials were created by the Luxon). They would be similar to Sam from the Magnus Chase series, believing that the world's pantheon is just a bunch of powerful, mostly-immortal entities, but they're still Theists that worship a higher power. They'd more fit into a Theist saying "Your god isn't the true one, even if they exist. Mine is the true one, because it's more powerful and/or older."
These definitions rely on the definition of a deity/god, which I'm using from the DMG's Divine Rank side-bar. The definition of a god is a bit iffy, as the line between a Demon Lord/Archdevil and a "True Deity" is very poorly defined. D&D tends to have "true gods" (Greater and Lesser Deities) be capable of having Clerics, while "Quasideities" typically just have Warlocks. However, Exandrian Demigods can have clerics (most notably Jester as the Trickery Domain Cleric of the Traveler), and lots of D&D worlds have Clerics that don't worship a deity; instead worshipping an aspect of the universe, which makes the definition even poorer.
So, yeah, this is a hard question to answer. A person who is aware that entities that call themselves a god (or are called gods by others) truly exist, but doesn't worship them and justifies it by saying "they're not true deities, they're just powerful immortal beings/manifestations of the universe" doesn't really fall into a Flat-Earth Atheist or a Naytheist, possibly being a little of both. If the Kryn Dynasty didn't worship the Luxon, they would probably be Nay-Theists, but they do worship the Luxon, making them just a variant type of Theists in Exandria.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If I was homebrewing. The Nay people when died they would go into the wall of faithless but healing spells would work on them. So no raises. The Flats no healing and no raises. Divine casters would have to pick at least one gawd.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
This is more along the lines of what I picture for FEA. They don't all have to be dumb comic relief. The "God Conspiracy" character could still be played humorously, but it doesn't have to be. It makes a lot of sense that the most powerful creatures in the realm might want to convince everyone they are omnipotent gods and thus challenging their rule would be impossible for any mere mortal. Hell, plenty of IRL historic rulers have claimed godhood.
The other FEA I think would be compelling is someone who was essentially estranged from the gods due to a grudge or a perceived injustice. Like in a family that had a falling out, you can have a father that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge his son's existence and pointedly ignores his presence. This trope pops up a lot in heroic tales. Of course you can call that Naytheism because they are only acting like the gods don't exist, but I agree with Yurei that it's a blurry line since your behavior is going to be the same as an FEA. It's just the subtext that's different (which makes it more interesting IMO). I played a sailor like this once who turned his back on the gods because his entire crew died at sea. By all outward appearances, he didn't believe in the gods at all, but inwardly his anger at the gods was consuming him.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, the line can be somewhat blurry but I agree that it can be interesting with a bit more variation. Of course, it would depend quite a bit on how you run your campaign and what your setting is like. If nothing else it can open up for some interesting theological debates in-game. Group A really believes that their gods are actual gods (and they have clerics and paladins and everything so it must be true!) but group B thinks that A's gods are just imposters and B *also* have clerics and paladins and everything. Meanwhile group C is like "you're both wrong". :D
Gods are only Gods if everyone calls them Gods. Unless of course they really are gods...
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
And the naytheist would ask "what defines a god?"
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.