Question: if a caster is trying to be sneaky, how far out are V components audible? I would imagine this would be most relevant for Arcane Tricksters, but I imagine most parties end up trying to be sneaky sooner or later.
I'm mostly thinking in terms of out of combat, but it would also be relevant in combat if a character wants to stay hidden while casting.
The Artificer can create a message that can be heard 10ft away, so I'd say at least that far. Also, casting without V is a Sorceror class ability, so you have to be careful to not neuter that.
Personally, I'd say at the very least conversational level. If you're inside a room with someone, they can hear you. The point of V is so that you can't sneak and cast at the same time, being able to whisper destroys that. The only time you won't be able to hear it is if you're outside in a large area, or if there is a lot of background noise. Otherwise, they know where you are.
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Try it out with a friend in a quiet room. See how close they have to be to hear it and then see how close they have to be to understand what it is and then see how close they have to be to understand the words.
And remember that outside there is a lot of soft stuff around like leaves that soak up the sound not like inside a closed room with reflective walls. Plus its never as quiet outside as inside.
I assume you are referring to Magical Tinkering. The way I read RAW, that doesn't actually count as spellcasting, you just need to touch the taget object with a tool. That could be silent unless you are doing the "repeat a spoken message" option.
I've never really considered Verbal components until somebody pointed out that almost every Artificer spell requires them (which is nonsensical, but that's a different complaint). But I'm thinking about the caster subclasses that are at least a little sneaky, and it totally wrecks that concept if they have to announce, "HEY, YOU! I'M CASTING A SPELL OVER HERE!" If nothing else, it seems like Arcane Tricksters, Trickery Clerics, and maybe Illusionists/Enchanters should be able to cast at least some spells without automatically giving away their position.
The point of V is so that you can't sneak and cast at the same time, being able to whisper destroys that.
That's debatable. It also serves to prevent those spells from being cast inside the Silence spell, and prevents casters who have been affected by certain forms of madness from casting them. Plus, it serves to add flavor to spellcasting, same as most material components. So, to claim its point is to limit sneaking is a little bit myopic. Any of these effects could very well be unintended side effects.
The point of V is so that you can't sneak and cast at the same time, being able to whisper destroys that.
That's debatable. It also serves to prevent those spells from being cast inside the Silence spell, and prevents casters who have been affected by certain forms of madness from casting them. Plus, it serves to add flavor to spellcasting, same as most material components. So, to claim its point is to limit sneaking is a little bit myopic. Any of these effects could very well be unintended side effects.
I think I agree that “specifically to prevent sneaking” is more of a side effect than anything else, but one purpose of spell components is certainly to be observable and recognizable as spellcasting. Xanathar’s Guide to Everything makes that pretty clear:
”But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.”
I agree, I basically imagine all verbal spells as full-throated commands, ordering the universe to act a certain way. But there's room for interpretation, because the human voice has a lot of range.
I don't love the idea of making people take Sorcerer levels or Metamagic Adept. I would play it by ear, basically. Some spells seem louder than others.
There are audible distance charts on some of the DM screens. Trying to be quiet (for example) is listed at 2d6 x 5 feet. This leaves a lot to be desired since it doesn't have any context for the type of enviornment or the type of noise, but you can assume that someone trying to wisper a spell could be herd between 10 and 60 feet depending on the circumstances. You could also treat it like a steath check vs the targets perception using a d20 and their spell modifier (or spell attack modifier) for the steath roll.
When hidden you give away your position if you make noise, which i rule the case when chanting of mystic words during spellcasting with verbal components.
I don't love the idea of making people take Sorcerer levels or Metamagic Adept. I would play it by ear, basically. Some spells seem louder than others.
And I don't love the idea of a sorcerer feature, which has extremely high opportunity cost on a class that's already behind the curve, being replicated for free by just saying "I whisper."
It doesn't mean you have to take that. It means that spell components restrict when they can be cast, which is entirely their point.
Spells with V components make noise and sneaking is supposed to be fairly difficult. I'd rule that a whispered spell works about as well as a spell cast under silence.
So for example, it's like if a party is moving through a castle, and the bard wants to cast sleep (V,S,M) on the guards in the next area to better their chances at sneaking through the room...
There are certain class abilities and feats available that let you do that (ex. Sorcerer's Subtle Spell), but given the situation I'd probably call for an Arcana Check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell's level. So in my example the bard would cast a sleep spell at level 1 and then make a DC 11 Arcana Check.
If it succeeds, the PC can whisper the spell effectively enough to cast it without being noticed. Any guard unaffected by the spell will see his fellow guards simply fall asleep.
If the check is failed, the spell will still work, but the PC is just a bit too loud with that verbal component and is noticed casting the spell. Any guard not effected by the spell will know the party is there.
I figure you have to be a well-practiced magic user to cast a spell without being noticed, so that's why I think the Arcana skill would apply outside of actually having the ability to do it normally.
My Arcane Trickster is fine with some of her spells having perfectly audible verbal components. It just means you use them for prep work before the part where you need to be sneaky, or else in combat you cast a verbal spell as an action (revealing your location) and then use your Cunning Action to Hide somewhere else.
But there are some nice spells without verbal components, like Minor Illusion and Catapult, that will let you stay hidden.
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Question: if a caster is trying to be sneaky, how far out are V components audible? I would imagine this would be most relevant for Arcane Tricksters, but I imagine most parties end up trying to be sneaky sooner or later.
I'm mostly thinking in terms of out of combat, but it would also be relevant in combat if a character wants to stay hidden while casting.
V components are semi-shouting. It's probably audible to some 200 feet. (60ish meters)
Question: if a caster is trying to be sneaky, how far out are V components audible? I would imagine this would be most relevant for Arcane Tricksters, but I imagine most parties end up trying to be sneaky sooner or later.
I'm mostly thinking in terms of out of combat, but it would also be relevant in combat if a character wants to stay hidden while casting.
Absolutely no-one knows. The stealth rules are a patchwork of missing and inconsistent and unrealistic rules to begin with, and throwing spellcasting into the mix only makes it worse. Any answer you get in this thread will be useless to you, because no two DMs will answer you the same way, and what matters is the DM you're actually playing under.
The closest thing we have is a rule not in any rulebook so I can't link it for you, but it's on the first 5E DM Screen. This determines the audible distance of a noise by level, and does not define the levels. Here you go:
"Quiet": 2d6*5 feet (10-60 feet, average 35)
"Normal": 2d6*10 feet (20-120 feet, average 70)
"Very loud": 2d6*50 feet (100-600 feet, average 350)
As there simply isn't any rule in the book stating you can't cast "quietly", theoretically the answer to your question is "maximum 60 feet when you try to be quiet". But of course the rules above are fundamentally incompatible with the Stealth skill, which, without buffs, does nothing except make you harder to hear - and as soon as you ask me how to handle rolling Stealth to cast more quietly, I have to throw my hands up and tell you to ask your DM. We have no rules for that.
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Question: if a caster is trying to be sneaky, how far out are V components audible? I would imagine this would be most relevant for Arcane Tricksters, but I imagine most parties end up trying to be sneaky sooner or later.
I'm mostly thinking in terms of out of combat, but it would also be relevant in combat if a character wants to stay hidden while casting.
I'm not aware of any rule saying that whispering a spells verbal component isn't allowed?
I'm not sure that there are any rules.
The Artificer can create a message that can be heard 10ft away, so I'd say at least that far. Also, casting without V is a Sorceror class ability, so you have to be careful to not neuter that.
Personally, I'd say at the very least conversational level. If you're inside a room with someone, they can hear you. The point of V is so that you can't sneak and cast at the same time, being able to whisper destroys that. The only time you won't be able to hear it is if you're outside in a large area, or if there is a lot of background noise. Otherwise, they know where you are.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It’s really a DM/table ruling thing. What makes sense for you guys.
Quiet enough that only you can hear it.
no one else needs to hear it.
Try it out with a friend in a quiet room. See how close they have to be to hear it and then see how close they have to be to understand what it is and then see how close they have to be to understand the words.
And remember that outside there is a lot of soft stuff around like leaves that soak up the sound not like inside a closed room with reflective walls. Plus its never as quiet outside as inside.
I assume you are referring to Magical Tinkering. The way I read RAW, that doesn't actually count as spellcasting, you just need to touch the taget object with a tool. That could be silent unless you are doing the "repeat a spoken message" option.
I've never really considered Verbal components until somebody pointed out that almost every Artificer spell requires them (which is nonsensical, but that's a different complaint). But I'm thinking about the caster subclasses that are at least a little sneaky, and it totally wrecks that concept if they have to announce, "HEY, YOU! I'M CASTING A SPELL OVER HERE!" If nothing else, it seems like Arcane Tricksters, Trickery Clerics, and maybe Illusionists/Enchanters should be able to cast at least some spells without automatically giving away their position.
That's debatable. It also serves to prevent those spells from being cast inside the Silence spell, and prevents casters who have been affected by certain forms of madness from casting them. Plus, it serves to add flavor to spellcasting, same as most material components. So, to claim its point is to limit sneaking is a little bit myopic. Any of these effects could very well be unintended side effects.
I think I agree that “specifically to prevent sneaking” is more of a side effect than anything else, but one purpose of spell components is certainly to be observable and recognizable as spellcasting. Xanathar’s Guide to Everything makes that pretty clear:
”But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.”
I agree, I basically imagine all verbal spells as full-throated commands, ordering the universe to act a certain way. But there's room for interpretation, because the human voice has a lot of range.
I don't love the idea of making people take Sorcerer levels or Metamagic Adept. I would play it by ear, basically. Some spells seem louder than others.
There are audible distance charts on some of the DM screens. Trying to be quiet (for example) is listed at 2d6 x 5 feet. This leaves a lot to be desired since it doesn't have any context for the type of enviornment or the type of noise, but you can assume that someone trying to wisper a spell could be herd between 10 and 60 feet depending on the circumstances. You could also treat it like a steath check vs the targets perception using a d20 and their spell modifier (or spell attack modifier) for the steath roll.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#VerbalV
At our table V components are an obvious part of spellcasting to at least anyone within the same room.
If you want to cast and be sneaky, pick up the metamagic feat.
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When hidden you give away your position if you make noise, which i rule the case when chanting of mystic words during spellcasting with verbal components.
And I don't love the idea of a sorcerer feature, which has extremely high opportunity cost on a class that's already behind the curve, being replicated for free by just saying "I whisper."
It doesn't mean you have to take that. It means that spell components restrict when they can be cast, which is entirely their point.
Spells with V components make noise and sneaking is supposed to be fairly difficult. I'd rule that a whispered spell works about as well as a spell cast under silence.
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And that's entirely fair. I'm not here to change your mind.
So for example, it's like if a party is moving through a castle, and the bard wants to cast sleep (V,S,M) on the guards in the next area to better their chances at sneaking through the room...
There are certain class abilities and feats available that let you do that (ex. Sorcerer's Subtle Spell), but given the situation I'd probably call for an Arcana Check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell's level. So in my example the bard would cast a sleep spell at level 1 and then make a DC 11 Arcana Check.
If it succeeds, the PC can whisper the spell effectively enough to cast it without being noticed. Any guard unaffected by the spell will see his fellow guards simply fall asleep.
If the check is failed, the spell will still work, but the PC is just a bit too loud with that verbal component and is noticed casting the spell. Any guard not effected by the spell will know the party is there.
I figure you have to be a well-practiced magic user to cast a spell without being noticed, so that's why I think the Arcana skill would apply outside of actually having the ability to do it normally.
I agree with the RAW ruling that unless you have an ability which says otherwise, the V component requires clear and loud words/noises to be emitted.
My Arcane Trickster is fine with some of her spells having perfectly audible verbal components. It just means you use them for prep work before the part where you need to be sneaky, or else in combat you cast a verbal spell as an action (revealing your location) and then use your Cunning Action to Hide somewhere else.
But there are some nice spells without verbal components, like Minor Illusion and Catapult, that will let you stay hidden.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
V components are semi-shouting. It's probably audible to some 200 feet. (60ish meters)
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
It negates the benefits of subtle spell. Verbal components are spoken loudly, if not almost shouting.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Absolutely no-one knows. The stealth rules are a patchwork of missing and inconsistent and unrealistic rules to begin with, and throwing spellcasting into the mix only makes it worse. Any answer you get in this thread will be useless to you, because no two DMs will answer you the same way, and what matters is the DM you're actually playing under.
The closest thing we have is a rule not in any rulebook so I can't link it for you, but it's on the first 5E DM Screen. This determines the audible distance of a noise by level, and does not define the levels. Here you go:
As there simply isn't any rule in the book stating you can't cast "quietly", theoretically the answer to your question is "maximum 60 feet when you try to be quiet". But of course the rules above are fundamentally incompatible with the Stealth skill, which, without buffs, does nothing except make you harder to hear - and as soon as you ask me how to handle rolling Stealth to cast more quietly, I have to throw my hands up and tell you to ask your DM. We have no rules for that.