So basically the idea of using major image and unseen servant to do the following
1. Major image to create backup singers to support the bard.
2. Using unseen servant and major image for playing instruments. For example a drum is placed on the ground and the unseen servant is instructed to play a basic beat. Then the bard casts major image over the unseen servant giving it visible form. For example a wood elf playing the drum would be the combined effect of these spells.
Absolutely. And throw multiple castings of Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy on top for special effects. (My Bards do.) I never thought of throwing major image on top of it though.
Major Image requires concentration, and the description limits it to a single effect, so you couldn't create a backup dancer and a drum player at the same time, but because it's capable of producing sound you wouldn't actually need the Unseen Servant to play the drum- you could create a Major Image of an elf playing a drum that produces music. Though nothing would stop you from doing it that way.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So with major image you can only create one image within the volume of 20-cube. To create two images at the same time would require twinning it as a sorcerer. Correct? (wait, twinning requires a target so maybe not)
So with major image you can only create one image within the volume of 20-cube. To create two images at the same time would require twinning it as a sorcerer. Correct? (wait, twinning requires a target so maybe not)
Right, one image with "It seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature appropriate to the thing depicted. " Can't be twinned, because it doesn't target a creature or have a range of self. "An object, creature", meaning one such thing.
From a flavor perspective, if the Bard wanted to use this to create a backup performer, I'd allow it. RAW, and just mechanically if you're thinking about it, it probably wouldn't work.
"As long as you are within range of the illusion, you can use your action to cause the image to move to any other spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the image so that it appears to be walking. Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example. "
To me, as I read this, causing it to continue to act in a performative type way requires an action each six seconds. The bard also singing/playing an instrument is also an action in the purest sense since in Combat, it would require a performance check.
Again, I'd allow it in flavor settings or during creative roleplay opportunities. Any of the Image spells really, really change depending on the DMs because some will allow ULTIMATE flexibility in them, and some won't even entertain the thought. So personal mileage will vary. In Combat with it, I am MUCH more restrictive with it, because in Combat, spells only do what they say they do, no more or less.
I think you guys have a very mechanical view of what music really is, especially with multiple performers. I don't think any true artist would be really satisfied with such a result even as backing vocals or drums, unless for playing on a street to collect a few coppers. Real music is fueled by the soul of the performers and their meshing together.
Moreover, remember that the Major Image does not move unless you are using your action to animate it, and for me that includes animation on a sound level. So if you are using your action to do this, you are not using it to perform yourself.
I know, it's not a fun perspective and as a DM I would probably allow some sort of backing support for playing in taverns or streets, just because of creativity. But for performances that matter, I would expect a true artist's perspective and I would certainly not grant any sort of advantage to the check because of what I consider to be rather poor special effects.
Now, with more advanced or specialized magic (programmed illusion for example), I would allow more, for example a talented bard could create and musically craft in advance what the other performers would do. It would be similar to what some of my musician friends do when they compose and record themselves playing the drums first, them the bass, then guitar and song, recording the multiple tracks and playing them back together. And this would allow really crafting each illusion with the skill of the bard. But it would require a higher level of skill, including in multiple instruments (I can sort of sing and play the guitar / bass, but I am really jealous of some of my friends who can really sing and play all the instruments of a band, and compose on top of it).
Right, totally agree with all of this.
From a rule of cool versus mechanics conversation, if someone wanted to say "Hey, I flavor up a dude to sing for me", and they weren't getting anything out of it story/campaign wise, I'd allow it. If they then tried to use that later on to be like I was the best bard ever, we'd talk about the limitations of the spell. Even programmed illusion still has the same limitation of one creature, object, or visible thing, its just larger, and allows for a 5 minute scripted thing from that one specific thing. So one singer singing a song, one drummer playing to a tune, etc. Even then, once they KNOW its an illusion, the magic is lost and the thing just doesn't sound the same.
I think you guys have a very mechanical view of what music really is, especially with multiple performers. I don't think any true artist would be really satisfied with such a result even as backing vocals or drums, unless for playing on a street to collect a few coppers. Real music is fueled by the soul of the performers and their meshing together.
Moreover, remember that the Major Image does not move unless you are using your action to animate it, and for me that includes animation on a sound level. So if you are using your action to do this, you are not using it to perform yourself.
I know, it's not a fun perspective and as a DM I would probably allow some sort of backing support for playing in taverns or streets, just because of creativity. But for performances that matter, I would expect a true artist's perspective and I would certainly not grant any sort of advantage to the check because of what I consider to be rather poor special effects.
Now, with more advanced or specialized magic (programmed illusion for example), I would allow more, for example a talented bard could create and musically craft in advance what the other performers would do. It would be similar to what some of my musician friends do when they compose and record themselves playing the drums first, them the bass, then guitar and song, recording the multiple tracks and playing them back together. And this would allow really crafting each illusion with the skill of the bard. But it would require a higher level of skill, including in multiple instruments (I can sort of sing and play the guitar / bass, but I am really jealous of some of my friends who can really sing and play all the instruments of a band, and compose on top of it).
Actually it does not say what you think it says. It says you can use an action to change it's location and it will appear to move accordingly (they give an example of it walking). However since it seems completely real 'including sounds, smells and appropriate temperature,' the implication is that it can move in place without an action.
It making sounds without any movement would not fall within the 'seems completely real' description.
Frankly, bards should be able to take 'illusion/image' as an instrument option. Even Minor Illusion, despite being a cantrip, can fill in for an instrument. In fact, since the cantrip can make 'any other sound you choose' it could fill in for an entire orchestra. There would be no visible instrument with Minor Illusion (since even if you made such an image, it would be intangible, thus problematic even to appear to play), but since the cantrip does not need concentration.... a bard with sufficient acting skill might manage to pull even that off....
I think it likely unproductive though to get into debates over definitions of what constitutes 'real music.'
So this is what I mean by "What each DM is going to allow".
Minor Illusion gives a few examples of what it can be, "If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else's voice, a lion's roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. "
The following isn't RAW, but I think it is just "This is what makes sense".
When you look at the balancing of spells within the context of other spells at the same level/tier of casting, I'm going to look at Minor Illusion alongside other spells like Message, Prestidigitation, Thamaturgy, Druidcraft, etc. Message takes an action and lets you send a message around a corner. You get six seconds an action(since a round of combat is six seconds), therefore the message can't be more than six seconds long. Prestidigitation allows for faint musical sounds, a shower of sparks, etc. Thamaturgy lets you create a sound such as a clap of thunder, ominous whispers, animal cries. Druidcraft can mimic small animal sounds and odors.
There's no way minor illusion creates a full bodied orchestra for one minute, and actively recreates all of the sounds and complexities of it. If it did? Musical instruments wouldn't exist.
I think you guys have a very mechanical view of what music really is, especially with multiple performers. I don't think any true artist would be really satisfied with such a result even as backing vocals or drums, unless for playing on a street to collect a few coppers. Real music is fueled by the soul of the performers and their meshing together.
Moreover, remember that the Major Image does not move unless you are using your action to animate it, and for me that includes animation on a sound level. So if you are using your action to do this, you are not using it to perform yourself.
I know, it's not a fun perspective and as a DM I would probably allow some sort of backing support for playing in taverns or streets, just because of creativity. But for performances that matter, I would expect a true artist's perspective and I would certainly not grant any sort of advantage to the check because of what I consider to be rather poor special effects.
Now, with more advanced or specialized magic (programmed illusion for example), I would allow more, for example a talented bard could create and musically craft in advance what the other performers would do. It would be similar to what some of my musician friends do when they compose and record themselves playing the drums first, them the bass, then guitar and song, recording the multiple tracks and playing them back together. And this would allow really crafting each illusion with the skill of the bard. But it would require a higher level of skill, including in multiple instruments (I can sort of sing and play the guitar / bass, but I am really jealous of some of my friends who can really sing and play all the instruments of a band, and compose on top of it).
Actually it does not say what you think it says. It says you can use an action to change it's location and it will appear to move accordingly (they give an example of it walking). However since it seems completely real 'including sounds, smells and appropriate temperature,' the implication is that it can move in place without an action.
It making sounds without any movement would not fall within the 'seems completely real' description.
It depends what you mean by "movement". You can create a flowing fountain (from an example given by JC). You can create a standing creature. But the spell does not mention at all that the image moves significantly unless you use an action for this. The fact that you can animate it is linked to taking an action so the logic is that it's not animated unless you take an action.
Frankly, bards should be able to take 'illusion/image' as an instrument option.
That is an interesting idea, but the limits of the spells have to be taken into account properly, as described.
Even Minor Illusion, despite being a cantrip, can fill in for an instrument. In fact, since the cantrip can make 'any other sound you choose' it could fill in for an entire orchestra.
Again, an orchestra does not make "a sound". Look at the examples, it can do ONE voice, for example. So certainly not a choir or a set of instruments.
There would be no visible instrument with Minor Illusion (since even if you made such an image, it would be intangible, thus problematic even to appear to play), but since the cantrip does not need concentration.... a bard with sufficient acting skill might manage to pull even that off....
I think it likely unproductive though to get into debates over definitions of what constitutes 'real music.'
Up to you, but passing off "a sound" or "one voice", or one object (for major image) for an orchestra seems clearly way beyond the capabilities of the spells.
"You hear the sound of an orchestra" is perfectly normal English. If you record an orchestral performance and play it back, there is now only one source, namely whatever device you are using to play it back. However it is still the sound of an orchestra.
"The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends" is the wording of the cantrip. It does not specify this requiring an action, nor does the cantrip even require concentration, so you can apparently do this at will.
Now I would not consider such a thing an easy task, since there is the question of knowing what an orchestra sounds like well enough to reproduce the sound of one on demand, however that is why I suggest treating it as a learnable instrument.
And if major image can make a flowing fountain, which clearly involves movement, then why, exactly not other forms of 'in place' movement? It takes an action to move the image to a different location. This is the same as many other spells with moveable effects. It does not equate to needing an action for the effects to exist wherever they are already centred.
You are reading in extra limitations.
Edit: Since Minor Illusion does not require concentration, worst case you could keep up to 10 active spells in 'play,' if you did want additional sources of sound rather than merely one single source that happens to sound like an orchestra or whatever.
The seond sentence of the spell literally says it ends the second you cast it again. You aren't even reading the limitations of the spell.
I'm not going to get into the "what constitutes a sound" debate, but I've got to agree that Major Image provides for limited animation of the image or it simply wouldn't do what it's supposed to do.
The classic use is to create the image of a creature, and it mentions the creature doing things as complex as carrying on a conversation. Even when creatures aren't walking around, they are breathing and looking around and moving their faces when they talk. If Major Image just made a mannequin that only moved when the image changed location, it would not take an Investigation check for a reasonably intelligent creature to see through it. Animation as simple as an 8-beat loop of a drummer swaying and playing the drums seems totally within the bounds of a 3rd level Illusion spell, and is not prohibited anywhere in the description.
Hmm... after reading through the spell in question (Major Illusion), I do have to agree that it sounds like you do need to use your Action to perform anything as complex as a song with it. Now, how the DM will rule that Action will combine with a Perform Action during a non-combat scene? That's trickier.
The rules, last I checked, weren't entirely clear what happens when I take a Perform action, then use a different action that's entirely mental. Do I stop singing or playing an instrument (or dancing, whatever) just because I'm taking a second action, even if its entirely mental? Especially when casting spells for bards often require performing music in the first place!
As for the "true artist" stuff.... I'm just going to refer you to the No True Scottsman tvtropes page. And reiterate that this is a game that many people play for escapism and laughs, not a realistic music simulator.
Why are you acting like there is some major play balance issue here?
Perform skill OP. Plz nerf!
Imagine the horror. Disney princesses swarming into D&D. Renditions of "Let it Go!" bringing ice palaces to being with a song! Birds and small animals following everywhere.
You don't need your action to make the image look convincing, including sound. If you create the image of a musician, including sound, it is not at all convincing if that image isn't animated - you need to see the instrument being played, the image must be in motion for that.
The action is only to move the image from one location to the next while still looking natural - for instance, making your (animated, just from casting the spell) lute player illusion walking from end of the stage to the other instead of having it look like he teleported between locations. You only need the action to move your image to a different 20 ft cube without breaking the illusion, not to have the image move inside the 20 ft cube where you created it.
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So basically the idea of using major image and unseen servant to do the following
1. Major image to create backup singers to support the bard.
2. Using unseen servant and major image for playing instruments. For example a drum is placed on the ground and the unseen servant is instructed to play a basic beat. Then the bard casts major image over the unseen servant giving it visible form. For example a wood elf playing the drum would be the combined effect of these spells.
Thoughts?
Get down with your bad self. Rub some funk on it. Leave these two to their bickering.
You don't need your action to make the image look convincing, including sound. If you create the image of a musician, including sound, it is not at all convincing if that image isn't animated - you need to see the instrument being played, the image must be in motion for that.
The action is only to move the image from one location to the next while still looking natural - for instance, making your (animated, just from casting the spell) lute player illusion walking from end of the stage to the other instead of having it look like he teleported between locations. You only need the action to move your image to a different 20 ft cube without breaking the illusion, not to have the image move inside the 20 ft cube where you created it.
I think that the "Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example" line falls under the use of an Action. Its part of the same paragraph as the "use Action to make walk" line, and the word "similarly" links the two sentences, implying that they're used in a similar manner.
So, for me, the question becomes - how much is playing music similar to carrying on a conversation, and how much is just "appropriate sounds?" I'd say a drummer carrying out a simple beat is easily within bounds of the spell with no further Action, but at which point does it becomes as complex as a conversation?
I don't see anything wrong with it, I would allow it in my game but I think it would be better if you had a homebrew spell for this. Maybe have the spell summon some spectral creatures. and as an effect you can amplify your radius to inspire a PC, maybe the more you summon the larger the radius you can inspire someone. hope this is helpful, I might make a homebrew now about this, Thanks for the idea.
"You hear the sound of music," "You hear the sound of a marching band," or "You hear the sound of a full symphony orchestra" are all perfectly good, perfectly plain English.
The hills are alive with it.
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"You hear the sound of music," "You hear the sound of a marching band," or "You hear the sound of a full symphony orchestra" are all perfectly good, perfectly plain English.
The hills are alive with it.
At least until the Nazis show up!
....
Does this count as invoking Godwin's Law?
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So basically the idea of using major image and unseen servant to do the following
1. Major image to create backup singers to support the bard.
2. Using unseen servant and major image for playing instruments. For example a drum is placed on the ground and the unseen servant is instructed to play a basic beat. Then the bard casts major image over the unseen servant giving it visible form. For example a wood elf playing the drum would be the combined effect of these spells.
Thoughts?
Looks good to me
Absolutely. And throw multiple castings of Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy on top for special effects. (My Bards do.) I never thought of throwing major image on top of it though.
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Major Image requires concentration, and the description limits it to a single effect, so you couldn't create a backup dancer and a drum player at the same time, but because it's capable of producing sound you wouldn't actually need the Unseen Servant to play the drum- you could create a Major Image of an elf playing a drum that produces music. Though nothing would stop you from doing it that way.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So with major image you can only create one image within the volume of 20-cube. To create two images at the same time would require twinning it as a sorcerer. Correct? (wait, twinning requires a target so maybe not)
Right, one image with "It seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature appropriate to the thing depicted. " Can't be twinned, because it doesn't target a creature or have a range of self. "An object, creature", meaning one such thing.
From a flavor perspective, if the Bard wanted to use this to create a backup performer, I'd allow it. RAW, and just mechanically if you're thinking about it, it probably wouldn't work.
"As long as you are within range of the illusion, you can use your action to cause the image to move to any other spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the image so that it appears to be walking. Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example. "
To me, as I read this, causing it to continue to act in a performative type way requires an action each six seconds. The bard also singing/playing an instrument is also an action in the purest sense since in Combat, it would require a performance check.
Again, I'd allow it in flavor settings or during creative roleplay opportunities. Any of the Image spells really, really change depending on the DMs because some will allow ULTIMATE flexibility in them, and some won't even entertain the thought. So personal mileage will vary. In Combat with it, I am MUCH more restrictive with it, because in Combat, spells only do what they say they do, no more or less.
Right, twinning wouldn't work because the spell affects an area and the description says that you can create one creature or object inside the area.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Right, totally agree with all of this.
From a rule of cool versus mechanics conversation, if someone wanted to say "Hey, I flavor up a dude to sing for me", and they weren't getting anything out of it story/campaign wise, I'd allow it. If they then tried to use that later on to be like I was the best bard ever, we'd talk about the limitations of the spell. Even programmed illusion still has the same limitation of one creature, object, or visible thing, its just larger, and allows for a 5 minute scripted thing from that one specific thing. So one singer singing a song, one drummer playing to a tune, etc. Even then, once they KNOW its an illusion, the magic is lost and the thing just doesn't sound the same.
So this is what I mean by "What each DM is going to allow".
Minor Illusion gives a few examples of what it can be, "If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else's voice, a lion's roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. "
The following isn't RAW, but I think it is just "This is what makes sense".
When you look at the balancing of spells within the context of other spells at the same level/tier of casting, I'm going to look at Minor Illusion alongside other spells like Message, Prestidigitation, Thamaturgy, Druidcraft, etc. Message takes an action and lets you send a message around a corner. You get six seconds an action(since a round of combat is six seconds), therefore the message can't be more than six seconds long. Prestidigitation allows for faint musical sounds, a shower of sparks, etc. Thamaturgy lets you create a sound such as a clap of thunder, ominous whispers, animal cries. Druidcraft can mimic small animal sounds and odors.
There's no way minor illusion creates a full bodied orchestra for one minute, and actively recreates all of the sounds and complexities of it. If it did? Musical instruments wouldn't exist.
The seond sentence of the spell literally says it ends the second you cast it again. You aren't even reading the limitations of the spell.
I'm not going to get into the "what constitutes a sound" debate, but I've got to agree that Major Image provides for limited animation of the image or it simply wouldn't do what it's supposed to do.
The classic use is to create the image of a creature, and it mentions the creature doing things as complex as carrying on a conversation. Even when creatures aren't walking around, they are breathing and looking around and moving their faces when they talk. If Major Image just made a mannequin that only moved when the image changed location, it would not take an Investigation check for a reasonably intelligent creature to see through it. Animation as simple as an 8-beat loop of a drummer swaying and playing the drums seems totally within the bounds of a 3rd level Illusion spell, and is not prohibited anywhere in the description.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Hmm... after reading through the spell in question (Major Illusion), I do have to agree that it sounds like you do need to use your Action to perform anything as complex as a song with it. Now, how the DM will rule that Action will combine with a Perform Action during a non-combat scene? That's trickier.
The rules, last I checked, weren't entirely clear what happens when I take a Perform action, then use a different action that's entirely mental. Do I stop singing or playing an instrument (or dancing, whatever) just because I'm taking a second action, even if its entirely mental? Especially when casting spells for bards often require performing music in the first place!
As for the "true artist" stuff.... I'm just going to refer you to the No True Scottsman tvtropes page. And reiterate that this is a game that many people play for escapism and laughs, not a realistic music simulator.
Perform skill OP. Plz nerf!
Imagine the horror. Disney princesses swarming into D&D. Renditions of "Let it Go!" bringing ice palaces to being with a song! Birds and small animals following everywhere.
You don't need your action to make the image look convincing, including sound. If you create the image of a musician, including sound, it is not at all convincing if that image isn't animated - you need to see the instrument being played, the image must be in motion for that.
The action is only to move the image from one location to the next while still looking natural - for instance, making your (animated, just from casting the spell) lute player illusion walking from end of the stage to the other instead of having it look like he teleported between locations. You only need the action to move your image to a different 20 ft cube without breaking the illusion, not to have the image move inside the 20 ft cube where you created it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Get down with your bad self. Rub some funk on it. Leave these two to their bickering.
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I think that the "Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example" line falls under the use of an Action. Its part of the same paragraph as the "use Action to make walk" line, and the word "similarly" links the two sentences, implying that they're used in a similar manner.
So, for me, the question becomes - how much is playing music similar to carrying on a conversation, and how much is just "appropriate sounds?" I'd say a drummer carrying out a simple beat is easily within bounds of the spell with no further Action, but at which point does it becomes as complex as a conversation?
Hey. Y'all disagree. The end. Please stop. It's not constructive anymore.
I don't see anything wrong with it, I would allow it in my game but I think it would be better if you had a homebrew spell for this. Maybe have the spell summon some spectral creatures. and as an effect you can amplify your radius to inspire a PC, maybe the more you summon the larger the radius you can inspire someone. hope this is helpful, I might make a homebrew now about this, Thanks for the idea.
The hills are alive with it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
At least until the Nazis show up!
....
Does this count as invoking Godwin's Law?