In the Psionic options revisited UA, it explained how the new subclasses could fit into D&D worlds, and one of which was Athas. Obviously nothing concrete, but gave me a little hope.
In the Psionic options revisited UA, it explained how the new subclasses could fit into D&D worlds, and one of which was Athas. Obviously nothing concrete, but gave me a little hope.
In the Psionic options revisited UA, it explained how the new subclasses could fit into D&D worlds, and one of which was Athas. Obviously nothing concrete, but gave me a little hope.
Combined with the fact that JC already announced months ago that they planned to kill the Psi Die and replace it with spells.
Missed what, exactly? I was just referring to the fact that Athas was mentioned. Yes, it was UA, and it could have just been on the mind of whoever typed up the flavor text of the subclass, but mentioning how a class can fit into a Dark Sun campaign gives me a little hope that they're at least thinking about Dark Sun.
In the Psionic options revisited UA, it explained how the new subclasses could fit into D&D worlds, and one of which was Athas. Obviously nothing concrete, but gave me a little hope.
Combined with the fact that JC already announced months ago that they planned to kill the Psi Die and replace it with spells.
Missed what, exactly? I was just referring to the fact that Athas was mentioned. Yes, it was UA, and it could have just been on the mind of whoever typed up the flavor text of the subclass, but mentioning how a class can fit into a Dark Sun campaign gives me a little hope that they're at least thinking about Dark Sun.
They are using Spellcasting for Psionics. That means whatever version of Dark Sun we get will be horrible. We may get Dark Sun, but it won’t be a version that will in any way reflect the Dark Sun of days gone by.
I don't think an "offend no one" climate would prevent the release of Dark Sun. The reason some people take issue with orcs (I assume that's what you're talking about) isn't because racial conflict is portrayed. Rather, the issue is that one race is labelled as usually good and the other (orcs) is labelled as being innately drawn towards evil. Personally, I've got a higher opinion of the people I play with, so I don't think having fictional species having some innate general differences is bad, but I can understand why some people might not like it.
A setting where pretty much everyone sucks and race has nothing to do with it, on the other hand, wouldn't have that problem.
In the annual survey a few weeks back, there was an item about campaign settings. I'm pretty sure Greyhawk and Krynn were on there, I want to say Spelljammer and maybe Planescape(?), and I'm very fuzzy if Dark Sun was listed there or would have been available as the "other" fill in the box space. What I'm getting at is if Dark Sun was actually listed as setting they were asking about, it could be indicative of a thought on a drawing board somewhere. If it wasn't there, it would likely require a critical mass of write ins on the survey to be thought of on the "drawing board".
Here's an optimistic brainstorm. What I call hard core mechanical mentalists (those who want specific and unique system for psionics in their D&D, as opposed to the reflavored magic pisonics apparently being published) are evidently disappointed about how pisonics may play out in Tasha's Cauldron. Elsewhere I've referred to Tasha's as D&D 5.25e, in that it's introducing or reintroducing some things to the game (alt racial/species trait selection, a degree of psionics though of the "reflavored spells" variety). WOTC will likely pay attention in subsequent surveys how players adopt and respond to these varied features. They could also float other systems. Revitalizing Dark Sun in a style such as the first Eberron book (or its follow up if they wanted to go all in) could be a way to offer a separate hard core mechanical mental power system and see how it floats with the market., and if it flourishes perhaps port it over into the broader 5e game through Vecna's Multiverse Masterpiece or whatever they'll call it. All this eventually determining what a 6e would look like.
As for "offend no one" I don't remember Dark Sun being particularly offensive. I think I remember it being thought of as a "more adult" setting, what with the skimpy leather and whips costumes in some of the art, basically a goth Roadwarrior/Thunderdome aesthetic. But really Avernus has making infernal pacts fair play and in terms of brutality, at one point the characters speak to a crucified vampire on a mountain of souls living in crucified damnation. And the Sibriex and Crokek'Toeck? Pretty grusome stuff. I remember the release largely celebrated how "metal" the adventure was. Dark Sun is just Death Metal.
It's all hazy but I do remember slavery being a part of Dark Sun society, and I think that may be a sensitive area to touch on possibly. But if I remember correctly the slavers weren't a faction the PCs were supposed to be a part of (I may be wrong) and the default campaign orientation assumed PCs were somehow resistant to those slave lords.
Anything's possible if advocated nicely, I think. Who knows if there's true disinterest maybe it could become a licensed experiment (though that would likely push hard core mentalist further from the game, because I don't know how licensing a world and rules variant and then incorporating those rule variants or their approximates in a future mainline publication would work ... too much of an IP headache.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
They are using Spellcasting for Psionics. That means whatever version of Dark Sun we get will be horrible. We may get Dark Sun, but it won’t be a version that will in any way reflect the Dark Sun of days gone by.
Depends on which "days gone by" you are referring to. Trying to convert PSP and MAC and psi-combat with it's own separate rules from pre-3.5e would be near impossible while sticking with the streamlined goal of 5e. 3.5e & 4e psionics were pretty close to spellcasting already. (For the Scion at least) I hope they are still working on it, but to be honest, I'd just like to see Dark Sun make a comeback as a world. It's very different from the current 5e worlds, and I think it would be a nice addition for all the new players. Don't get me wrong, one of my biggest draws to Dark Sun when it came out was because of how unique and cool all the psi stuff was. I remember my friend/DM at the time basically saying "Forget everything you know about D&D" half joking/half serious. For me and all of my friends, Dark Sun=psionics, and vice-versa. I don't see them doing that kind of thing in 5e, but it'd still be nice to have the setting updated regardless. I'd run it no matter what psionics ends up looking like.
They are using Spellcasting for Psionics. That means whatever version of Dark Sun we get will be horrible. We may get Dark Sun, but it won’t be a version that will in any way reflect the Dark Sun of days gone by.
Depends on which "days gone by" you are referring to. Trying to convert PSP and MAC and psi-combat with it's own separate rules from pre-3.5e would be near impossible while sticking with the streamlined goal of 5e. 3.5e & 4e psionics were pretty close to spellcasting already. (For the Scion at least) I hope they are still working on it, but to be honest, I'd just like to see Dark Sun make a comeback as a world. It's very different from the current 5e worlds, and I think it would be a nice addition for all the new players. Don't get me wrong, one of my biggest draws to Dark Sun when it came out was because of how unique and cool all the psi stuff was. I remember my friend/DM at the time basically saying "Forget everything you know about D&D" half joking/half serious. For me and all of my friends, Dark Sun=psionics, and vice-versa. I don't see them doing that kind of thing in 5e, but it'd still be nice to have the setting updated regardless. I'd run it no matter what psionics ends up looking like.
Seconded. Psionics are very important in Dark Sun but the mechanics of psionics is completely separate from the setting itself. Run a homebrew psion in it if that's what floats your boat.
Dark Sun is in my top 3 settings and I'd love to see it in 5e.
Actually my "offend no one" comment was more directed at the rampant slavery depicted in Athas but... all of the other suggestions work too.
Right, I guess what I'm saying compared to the damnation and torture of the damned presented in Descent into Avernus, is Dark Sun really that more problematic because it's oppressive structure exists on a mortal plane? I can see it, but also can see past it. Really not sure what a publisher like WOTC would assess, though if negative it's probably an IP worth being licensed to someone to develop rather than stagnate under a owner who feels they "can't."
I think you miss the point of the current changes in the climate of D&D. That Athas has slavery isn't the problem. WotC confronted that in their addendum to Elemental Evil for Athas in 5e. And even further, the context of the Gith in MToF is that they've struggled to grapple with how to form a society post-enslavement. It would only be problematic if slavery were forced on the PCs, portrayed as anything but evil, and justified on racial grounds. Athas requires none of that. The only change I might expect to see would be to slightly tweak the flavor of half-dwarves... which is to say allowing them to be defined by more than just their tragic past.
I think you miss the point of the current changes in the climate of D&D. That Athas has slavery isn't the problem. WotC confronted that in their addendum to Elemental Evil for Athas in 5e. And even further, the context of the Gith in MToF is that they've struggled to grapple with how to form a society post-enslavement. It would only be problematic if slavery were forced on the PCs, portrayed as anything but evil, and justified on racial grounds. Athas requires none of that. The only change I might expect to see would be to slightly tweak the flavor of half-dwarves... which is to say allowing them to be defined by more than just their tragic past.
Thanks for the pointer, without having the texts, I'm inferring that races originating or popular in Dark Sun are given a 5e treatment? Anything more substantive than porting (portaling?) those races to be available in all settings?
I'm curious and prior to your post had in fact been doing some digging my own. I don't claim to be a Dark Sun expert, nor have a definitive pulse of "the climate of D&D"; but I did come across this disclaimer text attached to every Dark Sun .pdf reprint I clicked on over at the DM Guilds' marketplace (bold and size is a result of cut and paste and me not bothering to reformat):
We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.
I browse the GM's Guild for old content pretty regularly, and this is the first time I've come across this, though admittedly my perusal has consisted of mostly old Forgotten Realms or FR adjacent content (Hellgate Keep, the Illithiad and modules it supports, so stuff leaning to the "darker" side of D&D, but disclaimer free). Again, from what I know of Dark Sun, I don't see a real problem with the setting myself, and while gladiatorial/slave themes can be mishandled, Spartacus tropes (Dark Sun always struck me as Sword and Sandels meets Mad Max) are a thing that can make for good gaming. Anyway, I'm guessing it's the leather and whips light artwork that leads to WOTC apology framing. Even though cheesecakery does still pop up a bit here and there in mainline products, a reasonable person could say some of the artwork in Dark Sun goes a little further to the edge. The costumes of some cover art are clearly evocative of fashions that have a tradition of confronting mainstream tastes with discomfort.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thanks for the pointer, without having the texts, I'm inferring that races originating or popular in Dark Sun are given a 5e treatment? Anything more substantive than porting (portaling?) those races to be available in all settings?
I'm curious and prior to your post had in fact been doing some digging my own. I don't claim to be a Dark Sun expert, nor have a definitive pulse of "the climate of D&D"; but I did come across this disclaimer text attached to every Dark Sun .pdf reprint I clicked on over at the DM Guilds' marketplace (bold and size is a result of cut and paste and me not bothering to reformat):
</snip-HJMK2>
I browse the GM's Guild for old content pretty regularly, and this is the first time I've come across this, though admittedly my perusal has consisted of mostly old Forgotten Realms or FR adjacent content (Hellgate Keep, the Illithiad and modules it supports, so stuff leaning to the "darker" side of D&D, but disclaimer free). Again, from what I know of Dark Sun, I don't see a real problem with the setting myself, and while gladiatorial/slave themes can be mishandled, Spartacus tropes (Dark Sun always struck me as Sword and Sandels meets Mad Max) are a thing that can make for good gaming. Anyway, I'm guessing it's the leather and whips light artwork that leads to WOTC apology framing. Even though cheesecakery does still pop up a bit here and there in mainline products, a reasonable person could say some of the artwork in Dark Sun goes a little further to the edge. The costumes of some cover art are clearly evocative of fashions that have a tradition of confronting mainstream tastes with discomfort.
Truthfully I don't know. I started playing during 3e, which didn't have an official Dark Sun treatment (aside from some great articles in Dragon #315 and #319), so I didn't really notice DS until 4e. That's to say that I haven't been exposed to all of DS. My guess is that WotC is probably putting those disclaimers on all of their old material just to cover bases. I haven't checked, but I'll bet you'll see similar statements on Maztica and Al Qadim books.
That's not to say that Dark Sun must necessarily fall afoul of modern ethics. Although half-dwarves and half-giants have really dark origins as selectively bred workers (implying non-consensual relations or dark magic), I don't think the DS writers portrayed the sorcerer-kings and slavery as anything but evil. In a rewrite, I could see spending a bit more time giving flavor to heroic halflings, gith, three-kreen, half-giants, and half-dwarves to emphasize that their backgrounds aren't deterministic. I think 4e did alright in this respect, ascribing half-dwarf shortcomings, including bitterness and social isolation, more to circumstance than biology. They even spend some time describing communities of half-dwarves and half-giants that live free, allowing games to sidestep slavery altogether if desired.
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What do you think the chances are of us getting a 5e update to this beloved setting? Is it even possible in today's "offend no one" climate?
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
I am afraid, a more gritty setting is not that high on the to do list.
Even if we do, it will be a shadow of its former self thanks to WotC’s deplorable treatment of Psionics in 5e.
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Yeah, very true.
Have fond memories of my wild psionic cannibalistic halfling rogue from my 2E times...
In the Psionic options revisited UA, it explained how the new subclasses could fit into D&D worlds, and one of which was Athas. Obviously nothing concrete, but gave me a little hope.
I think you might have missed this:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/79185-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-and-d-d-celebration
Combined with the fact that JC already announced months ago that they planned to kill the Psi Die and replace it with spells.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Missed what, exactly? I was just referring to the fact that Athas was mentioned. Yes, it was UA, and it could have just been on the mind of whoever typed up the flavor text of the subclass, but mentioning how a class can fit into a Dark Sun campaign gives me a little hope that they're at least thinking about Dark Sun.
They are using Spellcasting for Psionics. That means whatever version of Dark Sun we get will be horrible. We may get Dark Sun, but it won’t be a version that will in any way reflect the Dark Sun of days gone by.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I don't think an "offend no one" climate would prevent the release of Dark Sun. The reason some people take issue with orcs (I assume that's what you're talking about) isn't because racial conflict is portrayed. Rather, the issue is that one race is labelled as usually good and the other (orcs) is labelled as being innately drawn towards evil. Personally, I've got a higher opinion of the people I play with, so I don't think having fictional species having some innate general differences is bad, but I can understand why some people might not like it.
A setting where pretty much everyone sucks and race has nothing to do with it, on the other hand, wouldn't have that problem.
In the annual survey a few weeks back, there was an item about campaign settings. I'm pretty sure Greyhawk and Krynn were on there, I want to say Spelljammer and maybe Planescape(?), and I'm very fuzzy if Dark Sun was listed there or would have been available as the "other" fill in the box space. What I'm getting at is if Dark Sun was actually listed as setting they were asking about, it could be indicative of a thought on a drawing board somewhere. If it wasn't there, it would likely require a critical mass of write ins on the survey to be thought of on the "drawing board".
Here's an optimistic brainstorm. What I call hard core mechanical mentalists (those who want specific and unique system for psionics in their D&D, as opposed to the reflavored magic pisonics apparently being published) are evidently disappointed about how pisonics may play out in Tasha's Cauldron. Elsewhere I've referred to Tasha's as D&D 5.25e, in that it's introducing or reintroducing some things to the game (alt racial/species trait selection, a degree of psionics though of the "reflavored spells" variety). WOTC will likely pay attention in subsequent surveys how players adopt and respond to these varied features. They could also float other systems. Revitalizing Dark Sun in a style such as the first Eberron book (or its follow up if they wanted to go all in) could be a way to offer a separate hard core mechanical mental power system and see how it floats with the market., and if it flourishes perhaps port it over into the broader 5e game through Vecna's Multiverse Masterpiece or whatever they'll call it. All this eventually determining what a 6e would look like.
As for "offend no one" I don't remember Dark Sun being particularly offensive. I think I remember it being thought of as a "more adult" setting, what with the skimpy leather and whips costumes in some of the art, basically a goth Roadwarrior/Thunderdome aesthetic. But really Avernus has making infernal pacts fair play and in terms of brutality, at one point the characters speak to a crucified vampire on a mountain of souls living in crucified damnation. And the Sibriex and Crokek'Toeck? Pretty grusome stuff. I remember the release largely celebrated how "metal" the adventure was. Dark Sun is just Death Metal.
It's all hazy but I do remember slavery being a part of Dark Sun society, and I think that may be a sensitive area to touch on possibly. But if I remember correctly the slavers weren't a faction the PCs were supposed to be a part of (I may be wrong) and the default campaign orientation assumed PCs were somehow resistant to those slave lords.
Anything's possible if advocated nicely, I think. Who knows if there's true disinterest maybe it could become a licensed experiment (though that would likely push hard core mentalist further from the game, because I don't know how licensing a world and rules variant and then incorporating those rule variants or their approximates in a future mainline publication would work ... too much of an IP headache.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Depends on which "days gone by" you are referring to. Trying to convert PSP and MAC and psi-combat with it's own separate rules from pre-3.5e would be near impossible while sticking with the streamlined goal of 5e. 3.5e & 4e psionics were pretty close to spellcasting already. (For the Scion at least) I hope they are still working on it, but to be honest, I'd just like to see Dark Sun make a comeback as a world. It's very different from the current 5e worlds, and I think it would be a nice addition for all the new players. Don't get me wrong, one of my biggest draws to Dark Sun when it came out was because of how unique and cool all the psi stuff was. I remember my friend/DM at the time basically saying "Forget everything you know about D&D" half joking/half serious. For me and all of my friends, Dark Sun=psionics, and vice-versa. I don't see them doing that kind of thing in 5e, but it'd still be nice to have the setting updated regardless. I'd run it no matter what psionics ends up looking like.
Lol, here we go.
Seconded. Psionics are very important in Dark Sun but the mechanics of psionics is completely separate from the setting itself. Run a homebrew psion in it if that's what floats your boat.
Dark Sun is in my top 3 settings and I'd love to see it in 5e.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Actually my "offend no one" comment was more directed at the rampant slavery depicted in Athas but... all of the other suggestions work too.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
Right, I guess what I'm saying compared to the damnation and torture of the damned presented in Descent into Avernus, is Dark Sun really that more problematic because it's oppressive structure exists on a mortal plane? I can see it, but also can see past it. Really not sure what a publisher like WOTC would assess, though if negative it's probably an IP worth being licensed to someone to develop rather than stagnate under a owner who feels they "can't."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think you miss the point of the current changes in the climate of D&D. That Athas has slavery isn't the problem. WotC confronted that in their addendum to Elemental Evil for Athas in 5e. And even further, the context of the Gith in MToF is that they've struggled to grapple with how to form a society post-enslavement. It would only be problematic if slavery were forced on the PCs, portrayed as anything but evil, and justified on racial grounds. Athas requires none of that. The only change I might expect to see would be to slightly tweak the flavor of half-dwarves... which is to say allowing them to be defined by more than just their tragic past.
Thanks for the pointer, without having the texts, I'm inferring that races originating or popular in Dark Sun are given a 5e treatment? Anything more substantive than porting (portaling?) those races to be available in all settings?
I'm curious and prior to your post had in fact been doing some digging my own. I don't claim to be a Dark Sun expert, nor have a definitive pulse of "the climate of D&D"; but I did come across this disclaimer text attached to every Dark Sun .pdf reprint I clicked on over at the DM Guilds' marketplace (bold and size is a result of cut and paste and me not bothering to reformat):
We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.
I browse the GM's Guild for old content pretty regularly, and this is the first time I've come across this, though admittedly my perusal has consisted of mostly old Forgotten Realms or FR adjacent content (Hellgate Keep, the Illithiad and modules it supports, so stuff leaning to the "darker" side of D&D, but disclaimer free). Again, from what I know of Dark Sun, I don't see a real problem with the setting myself, and while gladiatorial/slave themes can be mishandled, Spartacus tropes (Dark Sun always struck me as Sword and Sandels meets Mad Max) are a thing that can make for good gaming. Anyway, I'm guessing it's the leather and whips light artwork that leads to WOTC apology framing. Even though cheesecakery does still pop up a bit here and there in mainline products, a reasonable person could say some of the artwork in Dark Sun goes a little further to the edge. The costumes of some cover art are clearly evocative of fashions that have a tradition of confronting mainstream tastes with discomfort.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Truthfully I don't know. I started playing during 3e, which didn't have an official Dark Sun treatment (aside from some great articles in Dragon #315 and #319), so I didn't really notice DS until 4e. That's to say that I haven't been exposed to all of DS. My guess is that WotC is probably putting those disclaimers on all of their old material just to cover bases. I haven't checked, but I'll bet you'll see similar statements on Maztica and Al Qadim books.
That's not to say that Dark Sun must necessarily fall afoul of modern ethics. Although half-dwarves and half-giants have really dark origins as selectively bred workers (implying non-consensual relations or dark magic), I don't think the DS writers portrayed the sorcerer-kings and slavery as anything but evil. In a rewrite, I could see spending a bit more time giving flavor to heroic halflings, gith, three-kreen, half-giants, and half-dwarves to emphasize that their backgrounds aren't deterministic. I think 4e did alright in this respect, ascribing half-dwarf shortcomings, including bitterness and social isolation, more to circumstance than biology. They even spend some time describing communities of half-dwarves and half-giants that live free, allowing games to sidestep slavery altogether if desired.