In theory I would, but I'm thinking that it's very a niche role to center your character around. A trap maker would need to predict where an enemy is going to be in order to lay the trap. That sounds great, but part of the central conceit of D&D is that you're exploring and "invading" someone else's territory - which makes it hard to set up situations where setting a trap makes sense. Obviously, there are circumstances where it could work and probably at least once in most campaigns there will be a situation where it's brilliant, but it is a bit too rare to be the focus of your class.
Siege engineers are more associated armies. Parties should be sneaking in, rather than taking down the gatehouse...and again, there are times where it will be useful, but too rare for a PC to focus his class around.
In both cases, I feel that they should either be one tool in your toolkit (Artificers and Rangers have the traps aspect, for example), or it's more of an NPC thing that gets added to your party when relevant.
I might be getting the wrong impression from the titles, though. They're interesting concepts, ones I'd be interested in, I just don't see them working in the context of your typical 5e campaign.
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That is part of the issue I'm running into with flow. Most of the time, the idea of siege equipment makes you think of big things, and not delivering that would make the player feel cheated. It's kinda' like the Cavalier who can't bring his horse everywhere, so 95% of its mechanics are designed to not care about horses.
I mean sure, there were smaller siege weapons like the Scorpion, but people aren't really going to feel super great about carrying around a "giant" belly bow... and there aren't many siege weapons that'll fit into a dungeon (which is where traps and black powder come in).
They'd need a strong push for exploration so they could see where enemies would come from, then have the party funnel enemies into the traps they set up... but controling how many, and how useful the engineer is after that is... delicate to say the least.
I like both ideas but also agree with the potential drawbacks mentioned thus far.
What if, for the siege engineer, it had an ability that allowed it to empower a weapon it was carrying into a siege weapon? When its empowered, maybe it could do extra damage, or deal its normal damage in an area of effect, or deal double damage against objects and structures?? Perhaps the empowerment could also be fueled by a spell slot so it has the potential to scale. This would play into the idea that you are channeling your Artificer magic to turn a normal weapon into a tool to topple defenses.
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Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
and something that came to mind after posting:
could be as simple as mimicking grenades (frag, flash, smoke) with the ability to choose an activation method (contact, proximity, timer, etc). I believe that sort of flexibility is what would scratch the itch.
Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
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I'm in the later stages of working on a Heavy Artillery fighter subclass that does some similar things. It's based off the Arcane Archer, but shoots a portable cannon that is designed for short/close range. Has some obvious overlap with Artillerist, but it's more versatile and less magicky with different special shells it can fire similar to the Arcane Shot options (more based on practical effects rather than magical ones). The cannon also does double damage to objects and structures at level 10 and triple damage at level 18. I just really want a grizzled, burly dwarf chewing a cigar and holding a cannon and it's hard to pull that off with a class with INT for your main stat.
I also really like the idea of a trap-based class but I agree that it's a big challenge to make that viable with how combat tends to play out. I have never seen snare actually go off in play. I do think it's a satisfying trope if you could pull it off though, and one that would fit very well in the Artificer class.
Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
I was thinking more of a powered up mold earth for the in-combat building aspects, actually.
And I really like the magic stone call out. Could just tack on the secondary effects since it already has the other mechanics already established.
Less work we have to do creating and balancing new mechanics, the better.
Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
I was thinking more of a powered up mold earth for the in-combat building aspects, actually.
And I really like the magic stone call out. Could just tack on the secondary effects since it already has the other mechanics already established.
Less work we have to do creating and balancing new mechanics, the better.
Good ideas. A few initial thoughts
Right tools for the Job: Proficiency in Mason's Tools
Siege Specialist: You learn the Magic Stone and Mold Earth cantrips, and they do not count against the number of cantrips you know.
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Mold Earth you can choose to use loose earth or stone to build a small wall which lasts for 1 minute. A creature which uses this wall for cover gains a bonus to their AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus. This wall is not large enough to inhibit movement. (i.e. buildable cover that gets better as you level up. Per the spell's description, you can have no more than two of these non-instantaneous effects built at a time)
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Magic Stone each stone deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. When cast this way, each stone also deals double damage against objects and structures.
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Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
I was thinking more of a powered up mold earth for the in-combat building aspects, actually.
And I really like the magic stone call out. Could just tack on the secondary effects since it already has the other mechanics already established.
Less work we have to do creating and balancing new mechanics, the better.
Good ideas. A few initial thoughts
Right tools for the Job: Proficiency in Mason's Tools
Siege Specialist: You learn the Magic Stone and Mold Earth cantrips, and they do not count against the number of cantrips you know.
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Mold Earth you can choose to use loose earth or stone to build a small wall which lasts for 1 minute. A creature which uses this wall for cover gains a bonus to their AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus. This wall is not large enough to inhibit movement. (i.e. buildable cover that gets better as you level up. Per the spell's description, you can have no more than two of these non-instantaneous effects built at a time)
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Magic Stone each stone deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. When cast this way, each stone also deals double damage against objects and structures.
Right, something like that. My other idea that is actually working out quite well on a subclass I am currently testing: replacing the extended spell list with something more thematic. In this case, non-spell slot usage of catapult and fabricate. You only get those two spells, but gain more uses that are not tied to spell slots as you gain levels.
I've homebrewed this class a few times and I'm still debating on how to really make it sing.
A Siege Engineer / Trap Maker as an Artificer class. Generally it winds up getting spell effects that aren't spells.
Would anybody else be interested in a siege engineer / combat explorer, or am I just crazy?
could be something AWESOME to spend your gold on! definitely like this idea. A friend of mine said they wanted a gadgeteer/trap maker class when I asked them if they had any idea for a new base class. A specifically non-magical, "batman's utility belt" focused class. Could try to focus the subclass around making stuff like idk bombs, poisons, and various mundane equipment. As for siege stuff, magical siege weapons sounds so ******* cool. Might need to make it have a mini siege weapon companion tho. Or have a big siege weapon that has wheels. Maybe you can make it so their siege weapon shrinks when they want to? Give it a few magical upgrades/augmentations to their siege weapon that they can choose and have one be "it shrinks to fit in your pocket".
Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
I was thinking more of a powered up mold earth for the in-combat building aspects, actually.
And I really like the magic stone call out. Could just tack on the secondary effects since it already has the other mechanics already established.
Less work we have to do creating and balancing new mechanics, the better.
Good ideas. A few initial thoughts
Right tools for the Job: Proficiency in Mason's Tools
Siege Specialist: You learn the Magic Stone and Mold Earth cantrips, and they do not count against the number of cantrips you know.
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Mold Earth you can choose to use loose earth or stone to build a small wall which lasts for 1 minute. A creature which uses this wall for cover gains a bonus to their AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus. This wall is not large enough to inhibit movement. (i.e. buildable cover that gets better as you level up. Per the spell's description, you can have no more than two of these non-instantaneous effects built at a time)
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Magic Stone each stone deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. When cast this way, each stone also deals double damage against objects and structures.
Okay, ive started thinking more and more about this subclass and have a prototype. What do you all think? What should be changed? At this point, I have focused more on the siege / defense aspect over laying traps.
Siege Engineer Spells
Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach certain levels in this class. These spells count as Artificer spells for you but do not count against your number of spells (or cantrips) known.
Artificer Level
Spells
3rd
Catapult*, Snare*
5th
Knock, Shatter
9th
Melf’s Minute Meteors*, Wall of Water
14th
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Stone Shape
17th
Destructive Wave, Passwall
*Spell found in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything
**Spell found in Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything
Tools of the Trade
When you choose this specialization at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. You also gain proficiency with mason's tools. If you already have this tool proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisan's tools of your choice.
Besieging Magic
Also at 3rd level, you learn the Mold Earth and Magic Stone cantrips which do not count against the number of cantrips you know. If you cast either of these spells while holding your mason’s tools, you gain the following improvements
Quick Cover: When you cast Mold Earth, you can elect to form the loose earth or stone into a small barrier. This wall is 5 feet wide and is large enough to provide cover, but does not block line of sight or movement. This cover provides a bonus to a creature’s AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus.
Heavy Artillery: When you cast Magic Stone, the pebbles are empowered to destroy defenses. Each pebble deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. These pebbles also deal double damage to objects and structures.
Fell Defenses
At 5th level, whenever you damage a creature with a weapon attack or with an Artificer spell, the target’s AC is reduced by an amount equal to half your Intelligence modifier (rounded down, minimum of 1) until the start of your next turn. A creature cannot have its AC reduced by this feature more than once at a time.
At 15th level, a creature also cannot benefit from damage resistances or immunities while their AC is reduced by this feature. Damage resistances or immunities granted by magical items or spells are not affected by this feature.
Mobile Warfare
Starting at 9th level, you can create a piece of siege equipment (outlined in the Dungeon Master’s Guide on page … ) by spending 1 hour crafting it. Alternatively, you can conjure a piece of siege equipment as an action by expending a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.
The piece of equipment lasts until destroyed or until you use this feature again. When made this way, your siege equipment is imbued with a minor amount of your magic. It is immobile while you are within 30 feet of it. If you move more than 30 feet away from it, it follows you as far as it can so that it remains within 30 feet of you. The siege equipment cannot move more than 30 feet on a turn. It can move across uneven terrain, up or down stairs, slopes and the like, but it can’t cross an elevation change of 10 feet or more.
If the piece of siege equipment is a weapon, you can aim, load, and fire the weapon as part of the same action so long as you are within 30 feet of it. Additionally, anyone utilizing the siege weapon can use your spell attack modifier and spell save DC for any attacks or saving throws associated with the siege weapon.
Okay, ive started thinking more and more about this subclass and have a prototype. What do you all think? What should be changed? At this point, I have focused more on the siege / defense aspect over laying traps.
Siege Engineer Spells
Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach certain levels in this class. These spells count as Artificer spells for you but do not count against your number of spells (or cantrips) known.
Artificer Level
Spells
3rd
Catapult*, Snare*
5th
Knock, Shatter
9th
Melf’s Minute Meteors*, Wall of Water
14th
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Stone Shape
17th
Destructive Wave, Passwall
*Spell found in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything
**Spell found in Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything
Tools of the Trade
When you choose this specialization at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. You also gain proficiency with mason's tools. If you already have this tool proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisan's tools of your choice.
Besieging Magic
Also at 3rd level, you learn the Mold Earth and Magic Stone cantrips which do not count against the number of cantrips you know. If you cast either of these spells while holding your mason’s tools, you gain the following improvements
Quick Cover: When you cast Mold Earth, you can elect to form the loose earth or stone into a small barrier. This wall is 5 feet wide and is large enough to provide cover, but does not block line of sight or movement. This cover provides a bonus to a creature’s AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus.
Heavy Artillery: When you cast Magic Stone, the pebbles are empowered to destroy defenses. Each pebble deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. These pebbles also deal double damage to objects and structures.
Fell Defenses
At 5th level, whenever you damage a creature with a weapon attack or with an Artificer spell, the target’s AC is reduced by an amount equal to half your Intelligence modifier (rounded down, minimum of 1) until the start of your next turn. A creature cannot have its AC reduced by this feature more than once at a time.
At 15th level, a creature also cannot benefit from damage resistances or immunities while their AC is reduced by this feature. Damage resistances or immunities granted by magical items or spells are not affected by this feature.
Mobile Warfare
Starting at 9th level, you can create a piece of siege equipment (outlined in the Dungeon Master’s Guide on page … ) by spending 1 hour crafting it. Alternatively, you can conjure a piece of siege equipment as an action by expending a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.
The piece of equipment lasts until destroyed or until you use this feature again. When made this way, your siege equipment is imbued with a minor amount of your magic. It is immobile while you are within 30 feet of it. If you move more than 30 feet away from it, it follows you as far as it can so that it remains within 30 feet of you. The siege equipment cannot move more than 30 feet on a turn. It can move across uneven terrain, up or down stairs, slopes and the like, but it can’t cross an elevation change of 10 feet or more.
If the piece of siege equipment is a weapon, you can aim, load, and fire the weapon as part of the same action so long as you are within 30 feet of it. Additionally, anyone utilizing the siege weapon can use your spell attack modifier and spell save DC for any attacks or saving throws associated with the siege weapon.
15th level feature
(work in progress)
So to not add as much clutter...
Overall, a wee bit too strong, I'd say.
Regarding Quick Cover: unless the intent is for stacking bonuses, half cover should already provide AC. Or is it meant to be mutually exclusive?
Regarding Fell Defenses: I would recommend ADV over half int mod, bounded accuracy and all that jazz. I would also argue that the immunity thing is too strong as well. I can't remember what it was, but there was something that treated immunity as resistance and resistance as no resistance. I think that would be the way to go.
Regarding Mobile Warfare: Fabricate exists and I would argue operating siege equipment solo is too powerful. Probably why the Artillerist went the direction that it did.
Okay, ive started thinking more and more about this subclass and have a prototype. What do you all think? What should be changed? At this point, I have focused more on the siege / defense aspect over laying traps.
Siege Engineer Spells
Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach certain levels in this class. These spells count as Artificer spells for you but do not count against your number of spells (or cantrips) known.
Artificer Level
Spells
3rd
Catapult*, Snare*
5th
Knock, Shatter
9th
Melf’s Minute Meteors*, Wall of Water
14th
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Stone Shape
17th
Destructive Wave, Passwall
*Spell found in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything
**Spell found in Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything
Tools of the Trade
When you choose this specialization at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. You also gain proficiency with mason's tools. If you already have this tool proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisan's tools of your choice.
Besieging Magic
Also at 3rd level, you learn the Mold Earth and Magic Stone cantrips which do not count against the number of cantrips you know. If you cast either of these spells while holding your mason’s tools, you gain the following improvements
Quick Cover: When you cast Mold Earth, you can elect to form the loose earth or stone into a small barrier. This wall is 5 feet wide and is large enough to provide cover, but does not block line of sight or movement. This cover provides a bonus to a creature’s AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus.
Heavy Artillery: When you cast Magic Stone, the pebbles are empowered to destroy defenses. Each pebble deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. These pebbles also deal double damage to objects and structures.
Fell Defenses
At 5th level, whenever you damage a creature with a weapon attack or with an Artificer spell, the target’s AC is reduced by an amount equal to half your Intelligence modifier (rounded down, minimum of 1) until the start of your next turn. A creature cannot have its AC reduced by this feature more than once at a time.
At 15th level, a creature also cannot benefit from damage resistances or immunities while their AC is reduced by this feature. Damage resistances or immunities granted by magical items or spells are not affected by this feature.
Mobile Warfare
Starting at 9th level, you can create a piece of siege equipment (outlined in the Dungeon Master’s Guide on page … ) by spending 1 hour crafting it. Alternatively, you can conjure a piece of siege equipment as an action by expending a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.
The piece of equipment lasts until destroyed or until you use this feature again. When made this way, your siege equipment is imbued with a minor amount of your magic. It is immobile while you are within 30 feet of it. If you move more than 30 feet away from it, it follows you as far as it can so that it remains within 30 feet of you. The siege equipment cannot move more than 30 feet on a turn. It can move across uneven terrain, up or down stairs, slopes and the like, but it can’t cross an elevation change of 10 feet or more.
If the piece of siege equipment is a weapon, you can aim, load, and fire the weapon as part of the same action so long as you are within 30 feet of it. Additionally, anyone utilizing the siege weapon can use your spell attack modifier and spell save DC for any attacks or saving throws associated with the siege weapon.
15th level feature
(work in progress)
So to not add as much clutter...
Overall, a wee bit too strong, I'd say.
Regarding Quick Cover: unless the intent is for stacking bonuses, half cover should already provide AC. Or is it meant to be mutually exclusive?
Regarding Fell Defenses: I would recommend ADV over half int mod, bounded accuracy and all that jazz. I would also argue that the immunity thing is too strong as well. I can't remember what it was, but there was something that treated immunity as resistance and resistance as no resistance. I think that would be the way to go.
Regarding Mobile Warfare: Fabricate exists and I would argue operating siege equipment solo is too powerful. Probably why the Artillerist went the direction that it did.
1) The cover is not meant to stack, as sources of cover do not stack to begin with. It is meant to be its own separate entity of cover. So, it starts out as a +2 bonus (equivalent to half cover) and by max level it will be a +6 bonus (one point better than 3/4 cover)
2) Yeah, I was iffy about the immunity thing. The language for "treat immunity as resistance / ignore resistance" just feels awkward and cluttery to me so I will come up with something else. In my own opinion, I think changing it to advantage is kind of boring. Plus, giving advantage to all attacks against the target that occur before the start of your next turn would be really powerful for a 5th level feature, in my opinion. If I were to change it to advantage against the target, I would probably change it to only being able to affect one creature per turn. But I feel like there are alot of abilities in the game that already give you ways of having advantage on your attack, and I want this one to stand out in some way.
3) Thats fair. Its hard for me to gauge if 1-man siege weapons is too powerful or not as I rarely see them used in the games I play in. That being said, with the comparison made to fabricate the ability is definitely too strong for 9th level. I think if it was bumped up to 15th it could still work more or less as it is already written. I think by 15th level, using your action to use a siege weapon will only be as good (if not a little worse) than casting a damaging spell.
I dont know. I could see removing the ability altogether, but if we are going to build a subclass around siege warfare I think somehow utilizing or improving siege weapons/equipment should be part of the kit
1. Gotcha. The way it was phrased with the PB and other bits led me to believe it was a separate source of AC.
2. With the absence of extra attack or other sources of scaling damage, I think advantage would be appropriate in this case. you could think of it as pinpointing a weakness or something.
3. I don't disagree with having some sort of siege weapon since it is indeed cool and thematic, but you also have to think it simply wont fit in a lot of places. I think a different approach is necessary.
1. Gotcha. The way it was phrased with the PB and other bits led me to believe it was a separate source of AC.
2. With the absence of extra attack or other sources of scaling damage, I think advantage would be appropriate in this case. you could think of it as pinpointing a weakness or something.
3. I don't disagree with having some sort of siege weapon since it is indeed cool and thematic, but you also have to think it simply wont fit in a lot of places. I think a different approach is necessary.
2. My issue with that, is there is already a feature that does what you say. The Crusher feat from TCoE gives advantage on all attacks against a creature until the start of your next turn, but only when you score a critical hit and only when you deal bludgeoning damage. Due to this restriction, it is also unlikely that you would be affecting more than one creature at a time. So, I feel extending such a benefit to affect any creature the Artificer hits with any attack or spell would be way more powerful. I think it should be more powerful than Crusher, but it may be too much as you suggest.
The ability could be changed to a once per turn effect, but then it feels kinda lackluster. A -1 or -2 to AC is weaker than advantage for sure, but I think it is balanced out that with spellcasting you can affect multiple creatures at once. I also think that a reduction to AC is also thematic, in that your attacks are destroying a creature's defense (even if only temporarily) rather than targeting a weak spot.
I think changing it to advantage could work, but I think other aspects of the ability would also have to be changed to dial back the benefit a bit. That being said, I would prefer to find a different avenue, just because I feel granting advantage is something alot of abilities already do and not something I want to repeat.
3. For some reason I thought alot of siege weapons counted as Medium, but I stand corrected. I agree that at their size there would be difficulty in moving them with you, so I think I will scrap the ability for now and come up with something else. I am tempted to have a custom siege weapon you make, but that feels like its steps too much on the toes of Artillerists and Battle Smiths
1. Gotcha. The way it was phrased with the PB and other bits led me to believe it was a separate source of AC.
2. With the absence of extra attack or other sources of scaling damage, I think advantage would be appropriate in this case. you could think of it as pinpointing a weakness or something.
3. I don't disagree with having some sort of siege weapon since it is indeed cool and thematic, but you also have to think it simply wont fit in a lot of places. I think a different approach is necessary.
2. My issue with that, is there is already a feature that does what you say. The Crusher feat from TCoE gives advantage on all attacks against a creature until the start of your next turn, but only when you score a critical hit and only when you deal bludgeoning damage. Due to this restriction, it is also unlikely that you would be affecting more than one creature at a time. So, I feel extending such a benefit to affect any creature the Artificer hits with any attack or spell would be way more powerful. I think it should be more powerful than Crusher, but it may be too much as you suggest.
The ability could be changed to a once per turn effect, but then it feels kinda lackluster. A -1 or -2 to AC is weaker than advantage for sure, but I think it is balanced out that with spellcasting you can affect multiple creatures at once. I also think that a reduction to AC is also thematic, in that your attacks are destroying a creature's defense (even if only temporarily) rather than targeting a weak spot.
I think changing it to advantage could work, but I think other aspects of the ability would also have to be changed to dial back the benefit a bit. That being said, I would prefer to find a different avenue, just because I feel granting advantage is something alot of abilities already do and not something I want to repeat.
3. For some reason I thought alot of siege weapons counted as Medium, but I stand corrected. I agree that at their size there would be difficulty in moving them with you, so I think I will scrap the ability for now and come up with something else. I am tempted to have a custom siege weapon you make, but that feels like its steps too much on the toes of Artillerists and Battle Smiths
And that all is absolutely fair, but you also have to remember that -1 or 2 AC is essentially the same as adding +1 or 2 to hit. You add Enhanced Weapon and Fighting Initiate: Archery on top of that and you can't miss, really. Advantage is still strong enough to be a core feature without being too strong. You could also limit it to weapon attacks, but without extra attacks, that may be TOO limited.
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I've homebrewed this class a few times and I'm still debating on how to really make it sing.
A Siege Engineer / Trap Maker as an Artificer class. Generally it winds up getting spell effects that aren't spells.
Would anybody else be interested in a siege engineer / combat explorer, or am I just crazy?
In theory I would, but I'm thinking that it's very a niche role to center your character around. A trap maker would need to predict where an enemy is going to be in order to lay the trap. That sounds great, but part of the central conceit of D&D is that you're exploring and "invading" someone else's territory - which makes it hard to set up situations where setting a trap makes sense. Obviously, there are circumstances where it could work and probably at least once in most campaigns there will be a situation where it's brilliant, but it is a bit too rare to be the focus of your class.
Siege engineers are more associated armies. Parties should be sneaking in, rather than taking down the gatehouse...and again, there are times where it will be useful, but too rare for a PC to focus his class around.
In both cases, I feel that they should either be one tool in your toolkit (Artificers and Rangers have the traps aspect, for example), or it's more of an NPC thing that gets added to your party when relevant.
I might be getting the wrong impression from the titles, though. They're interesting concepts, ones I'd be interested in, I just don't see them working in the context of your typical 5e campaign.
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That is part of the issue I'm running into with flow. Most of the time, the idea of siege equipment makes you think of big things, and not delivering that would make the player feel cheated. It's kinda' like the Cavalier who can't bring his horse everywhere, so 95% of its mechanics are designed to not care about horses.
I mean sure, there were smaller siege weapons like the Scorpion, but people aren't really going to feel super great about carrying around a "giant" belly bow... and there aren't many siege weapons that'll fit into a dungeon (which is where traps and black powder come in).
They'd need a strong push for exploration so they could see where enemies would come from, then have the party funnel enemies into the traps they set up... but controling how many, and how useful the engineer is after that is... delicate to say the least.
I like both ideas but also agree with the potential drawbacks mentioned thus far.
What if, for the siege engineer, it had an ability that allowed it to empower a weapon it was carrying into a siege weapon? When its empowered, maybe it could do extra damage, or deal its normal damage in an area of effect, or deal double damage against objects and structures?? Perhaps the empowerment could also be fueled by a spell slot so it has the potential to scale. This would play into the idea that you are channeling your Artificer magic to turn a normal weapon into a tool to topple defenses.
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Hm... I am certainly interested, but as others have already stated, that particular flavoring is not suited to the game in most cases.
Could lean more towards the modern day "combat engineer" concept, specializing in creating fortifications/other infrastructure in addition to something like an offensive Alchemist tool kit for explosives and such that has a trap "setting".
maybe some free uses of catapult thrown in for good measure.
and something that came to mind after posting:
could be as simple as mimicking grenades (frag, flash, smoke) with the ability to choose an activation method (contact, proximity, timer, etc). I believe that sort of flexibility is what would scratch the itch.
I like the idea of making it a general "builder" subclass.
For combat abilities, what about an ability that let you expend a spell slot as an action to make simple structures/objects that last for 1 minute (i.e a whole fight). Something like you can build a) a 5ft long wall that provides half cover b) a simple trap that triggers when an enemy enters the space it occupies c) a handful of throwable explosives that can be used on future turns (something along the line of Magic Stone, but with an AOE rather than attack roll). Build X of each for each level of spell slot expended.
Ranged enemies/casters? Pop some walls at the start of the fight for the backliners to hide behind.
Lots of enemies? Pop down a few traps to try to cut down on the horde.
A building in your way? Toss some explosives from a safe distance to make it crumble.
I think these would all be useful (if not a little awkward) during a fight, but would also allow for an interesting use if you are setting up an ambush before combat.
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I'm in the later stages of working on a Heavy Artillery fighter subclass that does some similar things. It's based off the Arcane Archer, but shoots a portable cannon that is designed for short/close range. Has some obvious overlap with Artillerist, but it's more versatile and less magicky with different special shells it can fire similar to the Arcane Shot options (more based on practical effects rather than magical ones). The cannon also does double damage to objects and structures at level 10 and triple damage at level 18. I just really want a grizzled, burly dwarf chewing a cigar and holding a cannon and it's hard to pull that off with a class with INT for your main stat.
I also really like the idea of a trap-based class but I agree that it's a big challenge to make that viable with how combat tends to play out. I have never seen snare actually go off in play. I do think it's a satisfying trope if you could pull it off though, and one that would fit very well in the Artificer class.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I was thinking more of a powered up mold earth for the in-combat building aspects, actually.
And I really like the magic stone call out. Could just tack on the secondary effects since it already has the other mechanics already established.
Less work we have to do creating and balancing new mechanics, the better.
Good ideas. A few initial thoughts
Right tools for the Job: Proficiency in Mason's Tools
Siege Specialist: You learn the Magic Stone and Mold Earth cantrips, and they do not count against the number of cantrips you know.
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Mold Earth you can choose to use loose earth or stone to build a small wall which lasts for 1 minute. A creature which uses this wall for cover gains a bonus to their AC and Dexterity saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus. This wall is not large enough to inhibit movement. (i.e. buildable cover that gets better as you level up. Per the spell's description, you can have no more than two of these non-instantaneous effects built at a time)
While holding your Mason's Tools, if you cast Magic Stone each stone deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus. When cast this way, each stone also deals double damage against objects and structures.
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Right, something like that. My other idea that is actually working out quite well on a subclass I am currently testing: replacing the extended spell list with something more thematic. In this case, non-spell slot usage of catapult and fabricate. You only get those two spells, but gain more uses that are not tied to spell slots as you gain levels.
Are you really thinking “siege specialist” with this, or more “tower defense?”
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Why not both? Wouldn't be bad to have both an offensive and defensive aspect.
could be something AWESOME to spend your gold on! definitely like this idea. A friend of mine said they wanted a gadgeteer/trap maker class when I asked them if they had any idea for a new base class. A specifically non-magical, "batman's utility belt" focused class. Could try to focus the subclass around making stuff like idk bombs, poisons, and various mundane equipment. As for siege stuff, magical siege weapons sounds so ******* cool. Might need to make it have a mini siege weapon companion tho. Or have a big siege weapon that has wheels. Maybe you can make it so their siege weapon shrinks when they want to? Give it a few magical upgrades/augmentations to their siege weapon that they can choose and have one be "it shrinks to fit in your pocket".
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Y'all got beautiful minds, I tell ya.
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Okay, ive started thinking more and more about this subclass and have a prototype. What do you all think? What should be changed? At this point, I have focused more on the siege / defense aspect over laying traps.
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So to not add as much clutter...
Overall, a wee bit too strong, I'd say.
Regarding Quick Cover: unless the intent is for stacking bonuses, half cover should already provide AC. Or is it meant to be mutually exclusive?
Regarding Fell Defenses: I would recommend ADV over half int mod, bounded accuracy and all that jazz. I would also argue that the immunity thing is too strong as well. I can't remember what it was, but there was something that treated immunity as resistance and resistance as no resistance. I think that would be the way to go.
Regarding Mobile Warfare: Fabricate exists and I would argue operating siege equipment solo is too powerful. Probably why the Artillerist went the direction that it did.
1) The cover is not meant to stack, as sources of cover do not stack to begin with. It is meant to be its own separate entity of cover. So, it starts out as a +2 bonus (equivalent to half cover) and by max level it will be a +6 bonus (one point better than 3/4 cover)
2) Yeah, I was iffy about the immunity thing. The language for "treat immunity as resistance / ignore resistance" just feels awkward and cluttery to me so I will come up with something else. In my own opinion, I think changing it to advantage is kind of boring. Plus, giving advantage to all attacks against the target that occur before the start of your next turn would be really powerful for a 5th level feature, in my opinion. If I were to change it to advantage against the target, I would probably change it to only being able to affect one creature per turn. But I feel like there are alot of abilities in the game that already give you ways of having advantage on your attack, and I want this one to stand out in some way.
3) Thats fair. Its hard for me to gauge if 1-man siege weapons is too powerful or not as I rarely see them used in the games I play in. That being said, with the comparison made to fabricate the ability is definitely too strong for 9th level. I think if it was bumped up to 15th it could still work more or less as it is already written. I think by 15th level, using your action to use a siege weapon will only be as good (if not a little worse) than casting a damaging spell.
I dont know. I could see removing the ability altogether, but if we are going to build a subclass around siege warfare I think somehow utilizing or improving siege weapons/equipment should be part of the kit
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1. Gotcha. The way it was phrased with the PB and other bits led me to believe it was a separate source of AC.
2. With the absence of extra attack or other sources of scaling damage, I think advantage would be appropriate in this case. you could think of it as pinpointing a weakness or something.
3. I don't disagree with having some sort of siege weapon since it is indeed cool and thematic, but you also have to think it simply wont fit in a lot of places. I think a different approach is necessary.
2. My issue with that, is there is already a feature that does what you say. The Crusher feat from TCoE gives advantage on all attacks against a creature until the start of your next turn, but only when you score a critical hit and only when you deal bludgeoning damage. Due to this restriction, it is also unlikely that you would be affecting more than one creature at a time. So, I feel extending such a benefit to affect any creature the Artificer hits with any attack or spell would be way more powerful. I think it should be more powerful than Crusher, but it may be too much as you suggest.
The ability could be changed to a once per turn effect, but then it feels kinda lackluster. A -1 or -2 to AC is weaker than advantage for sure, but I think it is balanced out that with spellcasting you can affect multiple creatures at once. I also think that a reduction to AC is also thematic, in that your attacks are destroying a creature's defense (even if only temporarily) rather than targeting a weak spot.
I think changing it to advantage could work, but I think other aspects of the ability would also have to be changed to dial back the benefit a bit. That being said, I would prefer to find a different avenue, just because I feel granting advantage is something alot of abilities already do and not something I want to repeat.
3. For some reason I thought alot of siege weapons counted as Medium, but I stand corrected. I agree that at their size there would be difficulty in moving them with you, so I think I will scrap the ability for now and come up with something else. I am tempted to have a custom siege weapon you make, but that feels like its steps too much on the toes of Artillerists and Battle Smiths
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And that all is absolutely fair, but you also have to remember that -1 or 2 AC is essentially the same as adding +1 or 2 to hit. You add Enhanced Weapon and Fighting Initiate: Archery on top of that and you can't miss, really. Advantage is still strong enough to be a core feature without being too strong. You could also limit it to weapon attacks, but without extra attacks, that may be TOO limited.