So assume we have a Ranger who takes the Dual Wielder feat and a Shortsword/Scimitar. And Assume 4th level. (The attack at 5th doesn't really matter for my specific question)
Dual Wielder says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon..."
So, the first attack must be with the shortsword. Good so far. Attacking with that Procs the Scimitar/Nick combination. Now, the question is, can the scimitar be the weapon that procs the Dual Wielder feat allowing you to make the bonus action attack with the shortsword (to set up vex for the next round/sentinal feat/opportunity atttack). From my understanding of the rules, this is acceptable as we can elect to not trigger Dual Wielder on the first attack and instead elect to trigger it on the Scimitar attack.
An add on question is that at 5th level whether or not the Scimitar/Nick attack must be the last attack in the attack action or can it be the second attack? I don't think this really makes a difference for anything.
So, there is debate as to whether Nick has to be the first attack or the extra attack in order to make the attack from the Light weapon property as part of the Attack action. Some weapon masteries specify that the triggering attack must be made as part of the Attack action (Cleave), Nick does not. I am of the opinion that the order does not matter, but discuss it with your GM.
Based on their answer, the Nick attack might need to be the first attack or which attack uses the Nick weapon doesn't matter.
Once you have made your two attacks from the Light weapon property as part of the Attack action, you can now attack with any non-two-handed weapon. (You can sheath and draw weapons as part of the Attack action to juggle weapons if you want.) It may be advantageous to invest in one good weapon, however, and reuse that. For example, if you have 2 attacks per action, and a +1 Shortsword and a mundane dagger, you will have up to 4 attacks per round (2 from the attack action, 1 from Light/Nick, 1 from Dual Wielder) and you can make 3 attacks with the Shortsword to capitalize on advantage and the bonus to hit and damage.
An add on question is that at 5th level whether or not the Scimitar/Nick attack must be the last attack in the attack action or can it be the second attack? I don't think this really makes a difference for anything.
Absolutely not. Some people may require that it be one of the attacks from the Attack action, but it doesn't matter if it's the last or not.
If you have the Two-weapon Fighting feat, the distinction feat becomes even more moot since the extra attack will keep the attribute modifier to damage. The only distinction would be if you had one attack per action, would you be able to attack with Vex first to potentially get advantage on the follow up attack.
Though there is some debate about whether the Nick weapon needs to be used first or second, it seems to me most tables have decided that the Nick weapon comes second. The biggest factor for this decision is the damage die size of the weapons that have the Nick mastery. Most of the Nick weapons (with the Scimitar being the exception) have a d4 for their damage die, suggesting that they are quick but not terribly powerful weapons.
For example, it makes sense that if you were to Attack with your Shortsword, you could then follow up with a smaller hit from your Dagger. It's more natural that the lesser weapon would be the follow-up strike.
As far as the order of attacks goes, the only one that matters in your attack chain is the first attack, because that is the triggering circumstance which allows for Nick and the Dual Wielder feat to be used. After that first attack, the order of the rest of your attacks should not matter. Once you are at fifth level, you could attack with your Shortsword to trigger Vex, then your Scimitar thanks to Nick, then sheathe those weapons and draw a Rapier to make two more attacks (thanks to Extra Attack and Dual Wielder).
It matters because both the light weapon property and the dual wielder feat require you to use a different weapon. Basically can your initial short sword attack trigger only the light weapon property (essentially not choosing to take the bonus action attack) Then attack with the scimitar and since it is now part of the attack action let it trigger the dual wielder feat so the ‘different’ weapon would then be the short sword.
I had originally thought you had to Shortsword, Scimitar, Scimitar. But after thinking about it I don’t think anything is stopping you from going Shortsword, Scimitar Shortsword.
I think the confusing part is the requirement to be a different weapon.
As for which attack is first, I don’t think it really matters. The first attack isn’t going to have advantage on round one anyway and the attack after scimitar will never have advantage. The only thing is it seems odd to attack with a dagger first the your larger weapon.
Both the extra attack of the Light Property and the extra attack of Dual Wielder must be made with a different weapon than the attack with a Light weapon you make when taking the Attack action, but these two can be proc by the same attack.
So while wielding a Shortsword & Scimitar, when you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword, you can;
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action OR as part of the Attack Action instead. [ Light Property OR Nick Mastery]
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action. [Dual Wielder]
I'd say talk to DM, the rules aren't really clear and people interpret them in different ways. As it goes, with Nick and Duel Wielder, I'd personally be quiet happy too allow: Weapon A > Weapon B > Weapon A or B
Where Weapon A could be either the shortsword or the scimitar and weapon B is the other and the rules really don't distinguish this well enough. What I would say is the order needs to be Attack (Action) > Nick > Duel Wielder, not that, that makes much difference but Nick moves the Light Property attack to be part of the triggering attack action.
It seems like the original question is about the phrase:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property . . ."
Does this wording actually mean that the attack in question must be performed on your turn and also must be an attack that is made as part of an Attack action? Surely that is the RAI, but is that the RAW based on how it's actually worded?
Or are these multiple but separate and unrelated requirements?
Meaning, can this be read as stating that you must take the Attack action on your turn and also (separately) that you must attack with a Light weapon? For example, can I take the Attack action at some point along the way on my turn but have the attack in question be my Bonus Action attack (which does not happen during the Attack action)?
Similarly, can this be read as stating that you must take the Attack action on your turn but that the attack in question does not necessarily have to be on your turn? (This surely seems like quite a stretch.)
Based on how its written, it's unreasonable to choose different logic for the above two questions. So, either the attack must be on your turn and also must be during your Attack action, or the attack does not need to be on your turn and also does not need to be during your Attack action.
Given that, are we now willing to allow the Dual Wielder Feat to kick in off-turn, such as for Opportunity Attacks? If we're not going to allow that then we should also not allow the attack to be made during your Bonus Action instead of during the Attack action.
Both the extra attack of the Light Property and the extra attack of Dual Wielder must be made with a different weapon than the attack with a Light weapon you make when taking the Attack action, but these two can be proc the same attack.
So while wielding a Shortsword & Scimitar, when you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword, you can;
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action OR as part of the Attack Action instead. [ Light Property OR Nick Mastery]
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action. [Dual Wielder]
They have to be made with a different weapon, but what is stopping you from attacking with the Shortsword, deciding to proc the light weapon property to attack with the scimitar. The scimitar then fulfills the requirement for dual wielder as it simply says “when you make an attack with a light weapon on the attack action” And therefore could make an attack with the Shortsword as it would be a different weapon than the triggering attack.
basically as far as I can see, there is nothing forcing you to use the dual wielder feat on the first attack. So it would always be possible to attack twice with the Shortsword (or 3 times at level 5) and once with the scimitar. Which fulfills the different weapons clause because when you attack with the scimitar is when you decide you are going to make the extra bonus action attack, not on the first attack you make.
I'd say talk to DM, the rules aren't really clear and people interpret them in different ways. As it goes, with Nick and Duel Wielder, I'd personally be quiet happy too allow: Weapon A > Weapon B > Weapon A or B
Where Weapon A could be either the shortsword or the scimitar and weapon B is the other and the rules really don't distinguish this well enough. What I would say is the order needs to be Attack (Action) > Nick > Duel Wielder, not that, that makes much difference but Nick moves the Light Property attack to be part of the triggering attack action.
I don’t know if that is going to help in my situation as I have to keep explaining how I’m making two attacks at level one and still have my bonus action free. my question is so dependent on the exact wording that I don’t think there is any hope of getting the dm to understand.
Both the extra attack of the Light Property and the extra attack of Dual Wielder must be made with a different weapon than the attack with a Light weapon you make when taking the Attack action, but these two can be proc the same attack.
So while wielding a Shortsword & Scimitar, when you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword, you can;
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action OR as part of the Attack Action instead. [ Light Property OR Nick Mastery]
Make an extra attack with a Scimitar as a Bonus Action. [Dual Wielder]
They have to be made with a different weapon, but what is stopping you from attacking with the Shortsword, deciding to proc the light weapon property to attack with the scimitar. The scimitar then fulfills the requirement for dual wielder as it simply says “when you make an attack with a light weapon on the attack action” And therefore could make an attack with the Shortsword as it would be a different weapon than the triggering attack.
basically as far as I can see, there is nothing forcing you to use the dual wielder feat on the first attack. So it would always be possible to attack twice with the Shortsword (or 3 times at level 5) and once with the scimitar. Which fulfills the different weapons clause because when you attack with the scimitar is when you decide you are going to make the extra bonus action attack, not on the first attack you make.
It's probably clearer if you look at it differently:
You use the DW feat when you make the bonus action attack. That attack is enabled each time you fulfill its requirements by making an attack with a light weapon during your attack action.
So, after attacking with both short sword and scimitar, you have two possible uses of the DW attack:
BA attack, but not with scimitar
BA attack, but not with shortsword
You can only use one, because you only have one bonus action, but either one is possible. Once you get your extra attack, you'll have three floating around, and two will be identical.
They have to be made with a different weapon, but what is stopping you from attacking with the Shortsword, deciding to proc the light weapon property to attack with the scimitar. The scimitar then fulfills the requirement for dual wielder as it simply says “when you make an attack with a light weapon on the attack action” And therefore could make an attack with the Shortsword as it would be a different weapon than the triggering attack.
If you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword and Scimitar using Light Property & Nick Mastery, then the extra attack of Dual Weilder can be either of them. Attack sequence can be:
I'd say talk to DM, the rules aren't really clear and people interpret them in different ways. As it goes, with Nick and Duel Wielder, I'd personally be quiet happy too allow: Weapon A > Weapon B > Weapon A or B
Where Weapon A could be either the shortsword or the scimitar and weapon B is the other and the rules really don't distinguish this well enough. What I would say is the order needs to be Attack (Action) > Nick > Duel Wielder, not that, that makes much difference but Nick moves the Light Property attack to be part of the triggering attack action.
I don’t know if that is going to help in my situation as I have to keep explaining how I’m making two attacks at level one and still have my bonus action free. my question is so dependent on the exact wording that I don’t think there is any hope of getting the dm to understand.
then maybe switching tact might be a better solution.
I'd probably say something along the lines of "In 2024, weapon masteries were added to give weapons some uniqueness and to work better with certain class builds. IN 2014, Ranger could not dual wield and cast hunter's mark, in 2024 ranger's design is more based off of Hunter's mark and so to allow the usage of two weapons and hunter's mark, they introduced the Nick Weapon mastery which removes the bonus action cost of dual wielding from the light property, so a ranger can make attacks with both weapons and still get hunter's mark. This benefit also exists for Rogues, who before had 1 attack to try and apply sneak attack with, they now get two attacks and can still BA disengage as they are not tanks"
then explain Dual Wielder after getting across what Nick does, don't worry about Dual Wielder until the DM understands what Nick does.
Okay so it looks like you guys basically agree with me and I can safely use 3 Shortsword attacks and 1 scimitar attack on my turn without feeling like I’m cheating.
Okay so it looks like you guys basically agree with me and I can safely use 3 Shortsword attacks and 1 scimitar attack on my turn without feeling like I’m cheating.
Yes, if you're level 5. At level 4 like you mentioned in OP you can't do 4 attacks without cheating somehow 😊
LOL, my adventurer friend xD And there are more! (*)
Regarding bhthephoenix's question about "the extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon", a simple way of seeing it is this way: the Dual Wielder Bonus Action extra attack is triggered every time you attack with a Light weapon, including the one you shift into your Attack with Nick or any extra attacks. The examples Plaguescarred gave illustrate this well.
The question is on the specific order of attacks.
So assume we have a Ranger who takes the Dual Wielder feat and a Shortsword/Scimitar. And Assume 4th level. (The attack at 5th doesn't really matter for my specific question)
Dual Wielder says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon..."
So, the first attack must be with the shortsword. Good so far. Attacking with that Procs the Scimitar/Nick combination. Now, the question is, can the scimitar be the weapon that procs the Dual Wielder feat allowing you to make the bonus action attack with the shortsword (to set up vex for the next round/sentinal feat/opportunity atttack). From my understanding of the rules, this is acceptable as we can elect to not trigger Dual Wielder on the first attack and instead elect to trigger it on the Scimitar attack.
An add on question is that at 5th level whether or not the Scimitar/Nick attack must be the last attack in the attack action or can it be the second attack? I don't think this really makes a difference for anything.
First, Dual wield, Nick and light weapons. I think this is the post with a lot of relevant discussion. </TarodNet_Impression>
So, there is debate as to whether Nick has to be the first attack or the extra attack in order to make the attack from the Light weapon property as part of the Attack action. Some weapon masteries specify that the triggering attack must be made as part of the Attack action (Cleave), Nick does not. I am of the opinion that the order does not matter, but discuss it with your GM.
Based on their answer, the Nick attack might need to be the first attack or which attack uses the Nick weapon doesn't matter.
Once you have made your two attacks from the Light weapon property as part of the Attack action, you can now attack with any non-two-handed weapon. (You can sheath and draw weapons as part of the Attack action to juggle weapons if you want.) It may be advantageous to invest in one good weapon, however, and reuse that. For example, if you have 2 attacks per action, and a +1 Shortsword and a mundane dagger, you will have up to 4 attacks per round (2 from the attack action, 1 from Light/Nick, 1 from Dual Wielder) and you can make 3 attacks with the Shortsword to capitalize on advantage and the bonus to hit and damage.
Absolutely not. Some people may require that it be one of the attacks from the Attack action, but it doesn't matter if it's the last or not.
If you have the Two-weapon Fighting feat, the distinction feat becomes even more moot since the extra attack will keep the attribute modifier to damage. The only distinction would be if you had one attack per action, would you be able to attack with Vex first to potentially get advantage on the follow up attack.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Though there is some debate about whether the Nick weapon needs to be used first or second, it seems to me most tables have decided that the Nick weapon comes second. The biggest factor for this decision is the damage die size of the weapons that have the Nick mastery. Most of the Nick weapons (with the Scimitar being the exception) have a d4 for their damage die, suggesting that they are quick but not terribly powerful weapons.
For example, it makes sense that if you were to Attack with your Shortsword, you could then follow up with a smaller hit from your Dagger. It's more natural that the lesser weapon would be the follow-up strike.
As far as the order of attacks goes, the only one that matters in your attack chain is the first attack, because that is the triggering circumstance which allows for Nick and the Dual Wielder feat to be used. After that first attack, the order of the rest of your attacks should not matter. Once you are at fifth level, you could attack with your Shortsword to trigger Vex, then your Scimitar thanks to Nick, then sheathe those weapons and draw a Rapier to make two more attacks (thanks to Extra Attack and Dual Wielder).
It matters because both the light weapon property and the dual wielder feat require you to use a different weapon. Basically can your initial short sword attack trigger only the light weapon property (essentially not choosing to take the bonus action attack) Then attack with the scimitar and since it is now part of the attack action let it trigger the dual wielder feat so the ‘different’ weapon would then be the short sword.
I had originally thought you had to Shortsword, Scimitar, Scimitar. But after thinking about it I don’t think anything is stopping you from going Shortsword, Scimitar Shortsword.
I think the confusing part is the requirement to be a different weapon.
As for which attack is first, I don’t think it really matters. The first attack isn’t going to have advantage on round one anyway and the attack after scimitar will never have advantage. The only thing is it seems odd to attack with a dagger first the your larger weapon.
Both the extra attack of the Light Property and the extra attack of Dual Wielder must be made with a different weapon than the attack with a Light weapon you make when taking the Attack action, but these two can be proc by the same attack.
So while wielding a Shortsword & Scimitar, when you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword, you can;
In my game i require the extra attack to be made with the Nick weapon, and allow it wether you still have a Bonus Action to take or not.
I'd say talk to DM, the rules aren't really clear and people interpret them in different ways. As it goes, with Nick and Duel Wielder, I'd personally be quiet happy too allow: Weapon A > Weapon B > Weapon A or B
Where Weapon A could be either the shortsword or the scimitar and weapon B is the other and the rules really don't distinguish this well enough. What I would say is the order needs to be Attack (Action) > Nick > Duel Wielder, not that, that makes much difference but Nick moves the Light Property attack to be part of the triggering attack action.
It seems like the original question is about the phrase:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property . . ."
Does this wording actually mean that the attack in question must be performed on your turn and also must be an attack that is made as part of an Attack action? Surely that is the RAI, but is that the RAW based on how it's actually worded?
Or are these multiple but separate and unrelated requirements?
Meaning, can this be read as stating that you must take the Attack action on your turn and also (separately) that you must attack with a Light weapon? For example, can I take the Attack action at some point along the way on my turn but have the attack in question be my Bonus Action attack (which does not happen during the Attack action)?
Similarly, can this be read as stating that you must take the Attack action on your turn but that the attack in question does not necessarily have to be on your turn? (This surely seems like quite a stretch.)
Based on how its written, it's unreasonable to choose different logic for the above two questions. So, either the attack must be on your turn and also must be during your Attack action, or the attack does not need to be on your turn and also does not need to be during your Attack action.
Given that, are we now willing to allow the Dual Wielder Feat to kick in off-turn, such as for Opportunity Attacks? If we're not going to allow that then we should also not allow the attack to be made during your Bonus Action instead of during the Attack action.
They have to be made with a different weapon, but what is stopping you from attacking with the Shortsword, deciding to proc the light weapon property to attack with the scimitar. The scimitar then fulfills the requirement for dual wielder as it simply says “when you make an attack with a light weapon on the attack action” And therefore could make an attack with the Shortsword as it would be a different weapon than the triggering attack.
basically as far as I can see, there is nothing forcing you to use the dual wielder feat on the first attack. So it would always be possible to attack twice with the Shortsword (or 3 times at level 5) and once with the scimitar. Which fulfills the different weapons clause because when you attack with the scimitar is when you decide you are going to make the extra bonus action attack, not on the first attack you make.
I don’t know if that is going to help in my situation as I have to keep explaining how I’m making two attacks at level one and still have my bonus action free. my question is so dependent on the exact wording that I don’t think there is any hope of getting the dm to understand.
It's probably clearer if you look at it differently:
You use the DW feat when you make the bonus action attack. That attack is enabled each time you fulfill its requirements by making an attack with a light weapon during your attack action.
So, after attacking with both short sword and scimitar, you have two possible uses of the DW attack:
You can only use one, because you only have one bonus action, but either one is possible. Once you get your extra attack, you'll have three floating around, and two will be identical.
If you take the Attack action and attack with a Shortsword and Scimitar using Light Property & Nick Mastery, then the extra attack of Dual Weilder can be either of them. Attack sequence can be:
With a more liberal use of Nick Mastery, attack sequence can be:
then maybe switching tact might be a better solution.
I'd probably say something along the lines of "In 2024, weapon masteries were added to give weapons some uniqueness and to work better with certain class builds. IN 2014, Ranger could not dual wield and cast hunter's mark, in 2024 ranger's design is more based off of Hunter's mark and so to allow the usage of two weapons and hunter's mark, they introduced the Nick Weapon mastery which removes the bonus action cost of dual wielding from the light property, so a ranger can make attacks with both weapons and still get hunter's mark. This benefit also exists for Rogues, who before had 1 attack to try and apply sneak attack with, they now get two attacks and can still BA disengage as they are not tanks"
then explain Dual Wielder after getting across what Nick does, don't worry about Dual Wielder until the DM understands what Nick does.
I’m confused. The dual wield feat is a bonus action attack.
Okay so it looks like you guys basically agree with me and I can safely use 3 Shortsword attacks and 1 scimitar attack on my turn without feeling like I’m cheating.
Yes, if you're level 5. At level 4 like you mentioned in OP you can't do 4 attacks without cheating somehow 😊
LOL, my adventurer friend xD And there are more! (*)
Regarding bhthephoenix's question about "the extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon", a simple way of seeing it is this way: the Dual Wielder Bonus Action extra attack is triggered every time you attack with a Light weapon, including the one you shift into your Attack with Nick or any extra attacks. The examples Plaguescarred gave illustrate this well.
(*) Threads touching the Nick order in some way: