RAW, the artillerist's arcane firearm only provides an additional d8 to damage rolls of artificer spells, not spells from any class. Naturally this would be extremely potent when combined with magic missile, but the artillerist does not have magic missile on its spell list (the armorer gets magic missile, but it doesn't have the arcane firearm feature to make use of it). Unfortunately, none of the dragonmarked races/subraces in ERftLW or the guild backgrounds in GGtR include magic missile on their expanded spell lists.
Are there any other sources of expanded spell lists (other than warlock expanded spell lists, which specifically expand the warlock spell list) that I'm missing? It would be super awesome to get this combo to work, but I'm not sure it's actually possible.
It is worth noting that Arcane Firearm allows you to add 1d8 to a damage roll for a spell, not all damage rolls for a spell. You would have to select a single 1d4+1 from the spell to receive the +1d8 bonus, rather than applying it to every missile. This is similar to the way Scorching Ray works for artillerists. Being able to apply that bonus damage with no to-hit roll is indeed potent - and possibly why the spell was omitted from the artillerist's spell list.
It is worth noting that Arcane Firearm allows you to add 1d8 to a damage roll for a spell, not all damage rolls for a spell. You would have to select a single 1d4+1 from the spell to receive the +1d8 bonus, rather than applying it to every missile. This is similar to the way Scorching Ray works for artillerists. Being able to apply that bonus damage with no to-hit roll is indeed potent - and possibly why the spell was omitted from the artillerist's spell list.
Technically, that is incorrect. Technically speaking, RAW, because Magic Missile deals all of its damage “simultaneously” it follows the same rules as an AoE. Therefore, technically speaking, RAW, to play Magic Missile correctly you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to all darts.
Hm. That is deeply and maliciously abusable and feels very much like both a rules oversight from the 5e team (what a shock) and a Problem. I believe that the "roll each dart separately" method is going to remain in play at my table, especially if folks start angling to triple the spell's damage through rules jank.
It's definitely super potent, due to the fact that RAW magic missile is a single 1d4+1 roll that applies to all the darts. Which is precisely why I'm curious whether there are any other sources of expanded spell lists that I'm not seeing. I most likely wouldn't pull this stunt for anything but a one-shot, but it's fun to theory craft. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the synergy is why artillerists don't have access to magic missile. Rolling 1d4+1d8+2 (base spell + arcane firearm + Shavarran birch focus) and multiplying it by the number of darts would be insane, dealing an average of 30 damage with a 1st level spell slot.
Looking at the spell description on here, it says that each dart deals 1d4+1, not that you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to each dart. Unless they changed it here, per RAW it would be three separate rolls. Since the arcane firearm says it applies it to only one roll it doesn't affect every dart, just one. (so shooting all 3 darts at the same target only gets an extra d8 of damage rather than 3d8)
No it's right, RAW it is one roll for damage, which each dart uses. That is stupid and not a lot of fun, so I don't know ANY table that uses the spell that way. Even IF you play it raw and somehow get MM to be on your Artificer Spell list I think you shouldn't allow that interaction. It seems too potent.
Since Artificers can now replicate common magical items, they could technically create spellwrought tattoos of Magic Missile. It isn't clear what class this spell is drawn from, but if created by an Armorer Artificer and used on an Artillerist Artificer, it may continue to count as an Artificer spell for the Artillerist.
However, it does specify "your" artificer spells, so it could easily be rebuked.
If the spellwrought tattoo still works the same as in the UA I don't think it works with Arcane Firearm. The tattoo produces the spell for you, that doesn't make it a artificer spell (I think only spells that are on your list or "count as artificer spells for you"(specifficly worded) count as that). If that weren't the case, you could aquire a Wand of MM and use that.
It may not be via the artillerist anymore, but i think i have found a way to do what you are looking for: a wildfire druid 6/ order of the scribes wizard 2 can summon their wildfire spirit and then use their wizard levels to make magic missile deal fire damage instead of force damage, you will be able to add a d8 to the damage roll (as the enhanced bond feature does not specify that only druid spells benefit). Note that it would probably be easier to just play an evocation wizard and wait until 10th level, as getting spells of relevant levels would be pretty impossible but you can
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It is worth noting that Arcane Firearm allows you to add 1d8 to a damage roll for a spell, not all damage rolls for a spell. You would have to select a single 1d4+1 from the spell to receive the +1d8 bonus, rather than applying it to every missile. This is similar to the way Scorching Ray works for artillerists. Being able to apply that bonus damage with no to-hit roll is indeed potent - and possibly why the spell was omitted from the artillerist's spell list.
Technically, that is incorrect. Technically speaking, RAW, because Magic Missile deals all of its damage “simultaneously” it follows the same rules as an AoE. Therefore, technically speaking, RAW, to play Magic Missile correctly you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to all darts.
Magic Missile is basically Scorching Ray but without the attack rolls made for it. All of Scorching Rays shots hit at the same time but count as seperate simply because of the attacks. Then again you can find a few Sage Advice where Jeremy has actually advocated for and against various interactions with such spells. Just depends on which specific spell has been used when the subject has been brought up. (He heavily favors Eldritch Blast for example while has given a big no when Scorching Ray is mentioned despite the fact that they supposedly work mostly the same. Multiple attack rolls at the same or differing targets.)
It is worth noting that Arcane Firearm allows you to add 1d8 to a damage roll for a spell, not all damage rolls for a spell. You would have to select a single 1d4+1 from the spell to receive the +1d8 bonus, rather than applying it to every missile. This is similar to the way Scorching Ray works for artillerists. Being able to apply that bonus damage with no to-hit roll is indeed potent - and possibly why the spell was omitted from the artillerist's spell list.
Technically, that is incorrect. Technically speaking, RAW, because Magic Missile deals all of its damage “simultaneously” it follows the same rules as an AoE. Therefore, technically speaking, RAW, to play Magic Missile correctly you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to all darts.
Magic Missile is basically Scorching Ray but without the attack rolls made for it. All of Scorching Rays shots hit at the same time but count as seperate simply because of the attacks. Then again you can find a few Sage Advice where Jeremy has actually advocated for and against various interactions with such spells. Just depends on which specific spell has been used when the subject has been brought up. (He heavily favors Eldritch Blast for example while has given a big no when Scorching Ray is mentioned despite the fact that they supposedly work mostly the same. Multiple attack rolls at the same or differing targets.)
That is a common misconception, but it is a misconception nonetheless. Scorching Ray does not say that it hits all targets at the same time. To borrow my favorite top tip for Interpreting D&D Made Easy by someone very wise and far more succinct than I, “If it doesn’t say it, it doesn’t do it.”
You create three rays of fire and hurl them at targets within range. You can hurl them at one target or several.
Make a ranged spell attack for each ray. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 fire damage.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you create one additional ray for each slot level above 2nd.
As you can see, this spell does not state that it hits all of its targets at the same time. Just because a spell’s duration is “Instantaneous” does not mean that it hits all of its targets at the same time. An instantaneous duration just means that the spell’s effect doesn’t linger around for the entire round. There are two ways that you can tell if a spell hits all of its targets at the same time:
If a spell has an Area Affect, it hits all targets at the same time. That is why they call for saving throws instead of individual attack rolls.
If the spell specifically says it hits all targets simultaneously like Magic Missile does.
By default, any spell that has an AoE must be governed the following two rules:
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover.
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
With a penalty, it is possible to deal 0 damage, but never negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier--the same modifier used for the attack roll--to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
The entire reason for why Magic Missile rolls once and all targets take the same damage just like an AoE is because it specifically includes the phrase “The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.” Because of that one specific line it becomes subject to the second of those rules.
That’s why Magic Missile gets certain rulings that do not apply to spells like Eldritch Blast or Scorching Ray. And, as per JC himself:
It's wording is very similar to that of Eldritch Blast. The primary differences are those necessary for the Cantrip part of Eldritch Blast and the spell slot nature of Scorching Ray. And you can if you dig hard enough find posts from Jeremy that go both ways on that as well despite the similar nature of wording of the spells themselves and sometimes differ based upon which spell is being referenced at times. The thing is that Scorching Ray also does not say that they are actually sequential like that particular post of his says either. It simply says that each ray hits individually.
Magic Missile on the other hand tends to get specific rulings because it lacks any form of attack confirmation what so ever and so rulings can be all over the place for it for a variety of reasons given at any individual point in time. This is nothing new with this spell. People have been doing everything they can to twist this fact about Magic Missile around everything in sight to make it more potent since 1st edition simply for that one fact alone.
I get what you're saying and it goes against how I've played the whole time because I didn't realize it.. but unless the spell states all damage happens at the same time, you roll seperately, but on those specific rare spells you roll one damage roll and apply it to all :)
I might be missing something but I'm not sure the line about simultaneous actually matters. The spell says you create three darts and each dart does 1d4+1 damage. The spell says nothing about treating it like an AoE and nothing about changing how you roll for damage relative to other spells. It just says you shoot three darts.
All the 'simultaneous' part does is mean you can't resolve the effects sequentially as you can for EB, nothing about applying damage modifiers extra times.
I might be missing something but I'm not sure the line about simultaneous actually matters. The spell says you create three darts and each dart does 1d4+1 damage. The spell says nothing about treating it like an AoE and nothing about changing how you roll for damage relative to other spells. It just says you shoot three darts.
All the 'simultaneous' part does is mean you can't resolve the effects sequentially as you can for EB, nothing about applying damage modifiers extra times.
Technically EB doesn't give you allowance for resolving them sequentially either but only says that they are resolved individually. Sequential is just easiest to do in practice and an allowance we end up putting into the spell and most spells like it often without really thinking about it so that players can feel more productive by not letting successful hits go to waste even though that still ends up happening it's mostly relegated to the last round of combat on the final foe or foes or an issue for Melee characters who don't have another foe in range but manage to kill their target in two hits instead of the expected 3.
I might be missing something but I'm not sure the line about simultaneous actually matters. The spell says you create three darts and each dart does 1d4+1 damage. The spell says nothing about treating it like an AoE and nothing about changing how you roll for damage relative to other spells. It just says you shoot three darts.
All the 'simultaneous' part does is mean you can't resolve the effects sequentially as you can for EB, nothing about applying damage modifiers extra times.
You are in fact missing something. The spell doesn’t need to say that it is treated like an AoE, mostly because it has nothing whatsoever to do with AoEs at all. The spell itself says that all of the darts hit simultaneously. The rules for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously say that you roll once and all instances do the same damage. Spells that have AoEs happen to hit every target at the same time, so therefore they follow the rules for spells that hit multiple creatures at the same time as found in the Damage and Healing section of the basic rules.
Magic Missile has absolutely nothing to do with AoEs whatsoever, but both Magic Missile and spells with AoE damage follow the same rules for rolling damage.
Does anything else besides Magic Missile and AoEs follow the rules for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously? I think the rule is typically thought of as describing AoEs because this is literally the one exception. I am not arguing that it's not RAW to roll once, I just think Magic Missile should have been worded more clearly because of its unusual mechanics.
There may be one or two other spells that specify such. But they will call themselves out when they do exist. But none of them are going to be the mixed up mess that magic missile is. Though it probably is another ray spell that I just can't think of.
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RAW, the artillerist's arcane firearm only provides an additional d8 to damage rolls of artificer spells, not spells from any class. Naturally this would be extremely potent when combined with magic missile, but the artillerist does not have magic missile on its spell list (the armorer gets magic missile, but it doesn't have the arcane firearm feature to make use of it). Unfortunately, none of the dragonmarked races/subraces in ERftLW or the guild backgrounds in GGtR include magic missile on their expanded spell lists.
Are there any other sources of expanded spell lists (other than warlock expanded spell lists, which specifically expand the warlock spell list) that I'm missing? It would be super awesome to get this combo to work, but I'm not sure it's actually possible.
It is worth noting that Arcane Firearm allows you to add 1d8 to a damage roll for a spell, not all damage rolls for a spell. You would have to select a single 1d4+1 from the spell to receive the +1d8 bonus, rather than applying it to every missile. This is similar to the way Scorching Ray works for artillerists. Being able to apply that bonus damage with no to-hit roll is indeed potent - and possibly why the spell was omitted from the artillerist's spell list.
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Technically, that is incorrect. Technically speaking, RAW, because Magic Missile deals all of its damage “simultaneously” it follows the same rules as an AoE. Therefore, technically speaking, RAW, to play Magic Missile correctly you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to all darts.
That’s one reason that a Shavarran birch focus is such a thing.
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Hm. That is deeply and maliciously abusable and feels very much like both a rules oversight from the 5e team (what a shock) and a Problem. I believe that the "roll each dart separately" method is going to remain in play at my table, especially if folks start angling to triple the spell's damage through rules jank.
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It's definitely super potent, due to the fact that RAW magic missile is a single 1d4+1 roll that applies to all the darts. Which is precisely why I'm curious whether there are any other sources of expanded spell lists that I'm not seeing. I most likely wouldn't pull this stunt for anything but a one-shot, but it's fun to theory craft. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the synergy is why artillerists don't have access to magic missile. Rolling 1d4+1d8+2 (base spell + arcane firearm + Shavarran birch focus) and multiplying it by the number of darts would be insane, dealing an average of 30 damage with a 1st level spell slot.
Looking at the spell description on here, it says that each dart deals 1d4+1, not that you roll 1d4+1 and apply it to each dart. Unless they changed it here, per RAW it would be three separate rolls. Since the arcane firearm says it applies it to only one roll it doesn't affect every dart, just one. (so shooting all 3 darts at the same target only gets an extra d8 of damage rather than 3d8)
No it's right, RAW it is one roll for damage, which each dart uses. That is stupid and not a lot of fun, so I don't know ANY table that uses the spell that way. Even IF you play it raw and somehow get MM to be on your Artificer Spell list I think you shouldn't allow that interaction. It seems too potent.
See here for the Sage Advice.
Since Artificers can now replicate common magical items, they could technically create spellwrought tattoos of Magic Missile. It isn't clear what class this spell is drawn from, but if created by an Armorer Artificer and used on an Artillerist Artificer, it may continue to count as an Artificer spell for the Artillerist.
However, it does specify "your" artificer spells, so it could easily be rebuked.
If the spellwrought tattoo still works the same as in the UA I don't think it works with Arcane Firearm. The tattoo produces the spell for you, that doesn't make it a artificer spell (I think only spells that are on your list or "count as artificer spells for you"(specifficly worded) count as that). If that weren't the case, you could aquire a Wand of MM and use that.
It may not be via the artillerist anymore, but i think i have found a way to do what you are looking for: a wildfire druid 6/ order of the scribes wizard 2 can summon their wildfire spirit and then use their wizard levels to make magic missile deal fire damage instead of force damage, you will be able to add a d8 to the damage roll (as the enhanced bond feature does not specify that only druid spells benefit). Note that it would probably be easier to just play an evocation wizard and wait until 10th level, as getting spells of relevant levels would be pretty impossible but you can
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Magic Missile is basically Scorching Ray but without the attack rolls made for it. All of Scorching Rays shots hit at the same time but count as seperate simply because of the attacks. Then again you can find a few Sage Advice where Jeremy has actually advocated for and against various interactions with such spells. Just depends on which specific spell has been used when the subject has been brought up. (He heavily favors Eldritch Blast for example while has given a big no when Scorching Ray is mentioned despite the fact that they supposedly work mostly the same. Multiple attack rolls at the same or differing targets.)
That is a common misconception, but it is a misconception nonetheless. Scorching Ray does not say that it hits all targets at the same time. To borrow my favorite top tip for Interpreting D&D Made Easy by someone very wise and far more succinct than I, “If it doesn’t say it, it doesn’t do it.”
As you can see, this spell does not state that it hits all of its targets at the same time. Just because a spell’s duration is “Instantaneous” does not mean that it hits all of its targets at the same time. An instantaneous duration just means that the spell’s effect doesn’t linger around for the entire round. There are two ways that you can tell if a spell hits all of its targets at the same time:
By default, any spell that has an AoE must be governed the following two rules:
1. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#CastingaSpell
Areas of Effect
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover.
2. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#DamageandHealing
Damage Rolls
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
With a penalty, it is possible to deal 0 damage, but never negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier--the same modifier used for the attack roll--to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
The entire reason for why Magic Missile rolls once and all targets take the same damage just like an AoE is because it specifically includes the phrase “The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.” Because of that one specific line it becomes subject to the second of those rules.
That’s why Magic Missile gets certain rulings that do not apply to spells like Eldritch Blast or Scorching Ray. And, as per JC himself:
I hope that helps.
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It's wording is very similar to that of Eldritch Blast. The primary differences are those necessary for the Cantrip part of Eldritch Blast and the spell slot nature of Scorching Ray. And you can if you dig hard enough find posts from Jeremy that go both ways on that as well despite the similar nature of wording of the spells themselves and sometimes differ based upon which spell is being referenced at times. The thing is that Scorching Ray also does not say that they are actually sequential like that particular post of his says either. It simply says that each ray hits individually.
Magic Missile on the other hand tends to get specific rulings because it lacks any form of attack confirmation what so ever and so rulings can be all over the place for it for a variety of reasons given at any individual point in time. This is nothing new with this spell. People have been doing everything they can to twist this fact about Magic Missile around everything in sight to make it more potent since 1st edition simply for that one fact alone.
I get what you're saying and it goes against how I've played the whole time because I didn't realize it.. but unless the spell states all damage happens at the same time, you roll seperately, but on those specific rare spells you roll one damage roll and apply it to all :)
I might be missing something but I'm not sure the line about simultaneous actually matters. The spell says you create three darts and each dart does 1d4+1 damage. The spell says nothing about treating it like an AoE and nothing about changing how you roll for damage relative to other spells. It just says you shoot three darts.
All the 'simultaneous' part does is mean you can't resolve the effects sequentially as you can for EB, nothing about applying damage modifiers extra times.
Technically EB doesn't give you allowance for resolving them sequentially either but only says that they are resolved individually. Sequential is just easiest to do in practice and an allowance we end up putting into the spell and most spells like it often without really thinking about it so that players can feel more productive by not letting successful hits go to waste even though that still ends up happening it's mostly relegated to the last round of combat on the final foe or foes or an issue for Melee characters who don't have another foe in range but manage to kill their target in two hits instead of the expected 3.
You are in fact missing something. The spell doesn’t need to say that it is treated like an AoE, mostly because it has nothing whatsoever to do with AoEs at all. The spell itself says that all of the darts hit simultaneously. The rules for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously say that you roll once and all instances do the same damage. Spells that have AoEs happen to hit every target at the same time, so therefore they follow the rules for spells that hit multiple creatures at the same time as found in the Damage and Healing section of the basic rules.
Magic Missile has absolutely nothing to do with AoEs whatsoever, but both Magic Missile and spells with AoE damage follow the same rules for rolling damage.
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Does anything else besides Magic Missile and AoEs follow the rules for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously? I think the rule is typically thought of as describing AoEs because this is literally the one exception. I am not arguing that it's not RAW to roll once, I just think Magic Missile should have been worded more clearly because of its unusual mechanics.
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There may be one or two other spells that specify such. But they will call themselves out when they do exist. But none of them are going to be the mixed up mess that magic missile is. Though it probably is another ray spell that I just can't think of.