I have been perusing the forums this morning, and I came across this question. Can I build beyond level 20? - Psychicrage. The answer is not on DDB, but the question made me wonder; why wizards do away with levels beyond 20 and epic play specifically?
It seems like an odd move, but maybe those who played before 5e might know the reason.
XD
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Because it is very hard to create a good, engaging and balanced content for epic level play.
And it's a vicious cycle - most campaigns don't last that long and most people don't play at those levels so they don't create much content for it. Of course the fact that they don't create much content for it means that not many people play at that level and so on...
I have been perusing the forums this morning, and I came across this question. Can I build beyond level 20? - Psychicrage. The answer is not on DDB, but the question made me wonder; why wizards do away with levels beyond 20 and epic play specifically?
They didn't. Nothing stops you from playing once you've reached level 20. Check out the epic boons and stuff like that.
Epic boons can provide the after level 20 experience. I do think there is a small number, and you would likely need to homebrew some, although I think it's great! :D
For those who have played at high levels, you know the reason - the game just really starts to break down. Fundamental design pillars like bounded accuracy and the spell system just can't handle play outside of the expected bounds. They studied how people played, found that the majority of games spend their time in the level 3-10 zone, and optimized the game for those tiers of play. The system strains the farther you get from there.
They have also targeted the vast majority of content at those levels. Perhaps with the new accelerated rate of content production we will see a bit more attention to higher levels. As it is you really need to homebrew monsters to challenge level 20 parties, although I think the Theros book provided some good guidelines for what kinds of things you can do.
I also think there was backlash from 4e, which a lot of people felt pushed adventurers too far towards a "superhero" feel. Many gamers were turned off by epic play, and I think the dev response to that in 5e is apparent (although not exactly consistent - 4e had no power equivalent to level 9 spells for example).
I think the simple answer is that they didn't get rid of epic play.
Levels 16-20 is "epic play" for D&D and characters at that level, especially with some of the level 20 capstone features, can do some truly crazy stuff.
Due to the nature of the rules system, there will always be some form of cap - if a new official rulebook came out tomorrow, with rules for levels 21-50, then we'd rapidly see people requesting rules for "Epic play past level 50" - I think it's just the nature of the game.
The official solution is, as mentioned by others, epic boons, blessings and other additional features that can be added to characters rather than additional levels past 20.
WOTC research found most games stop around 10 to 12 th level. From 1E on most of the PC charts topped out at 20th.
Welllll.... there is an argument (which I certainly did not originate but I find somewhat convincing) that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, of sorts. There has been little support for the 15+ game. WOTC has only published one adventure that goes up that high, and it was published, I believe, in 2018. So if they don't publish adventures that go into the high teens, is it any wonder that most games stop at around 12-15? That's where all their published adventures stop, after all.
This would be like JK Rowling, immediately after publishing the 7th and final Harry Potter novel, arguing that there was no reason to write an 8th HP novel because no one had ever read more than 7 HP novels. We couldn't read them if they didn't exist.
And people can't play level 16-20 if WOTC has not published them, unless they homebrew. Now sure, some people do, but it's not going to be as many as play the published adventures. I don't know how many homebrew vs. play published games, and I don't know how many homebrews go to level 16+, but we can say that nearly 100% of people who play published campaigns, are playing in games that stop by level 12-15, because all of the published ones do, except Mad Mage.
And furthermore, for that final tier, which many DMs feel is the hardest tier to run, with only 1 published book to use for reference, even DMs who want to run a game at that level, have almost nothing to use as a template, as an example, as a calibration for how they should run their own game. This is in contrast to the dozen or more books that start at level 1 and can serve as a reference for the aspiring DM.
Now, if WOTC put out 20 adventures from level 15-20, would they be as popular as the 1-10 stuff? I dunno, but probably not. However, since they have put almost ZERO out at that level, it is hardly any surprise that almost ZERO players game at that level. Again, we can't play what doesn't exist.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I wouldn't mind an official campaign or two to take players to level 20, but it's very likely not really worth the effort. I'll mine the DMs' Guild instead if I feel so inclined.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Maybe Wizards can use UA to test the waters of epic adventures before they publish it. They already use UA often to play test races, subclasses, and various game mechanics, so I think they can use UA to gauge interest and solicit feedback on less mechanical stuff too, like tier of play, puzzles, flavor, etc.
After 15th level, the party is so ridiculously powerful that everyone starts longing for tiers 1 & 2 again. And considering how long it takes to get to 15th level that’s a genuine achievement in itself that everyone lasted that long anyway. (Fer reals.)
Please note, even when TSR was running things the level cap had already decreased between 1e and 2e, and would have likely continued to trend downward roughly parallel to what WotC has done from over the last 24 years owning the IP. Heck WotC built 3e using the test content and market research that TSR was already working with and had already secretly tested during 2e under the guise of the three Players’ Options titles.
I often players beyond lvl 20-ish. And with some of my current character approaching lvl 20, it does sadden me that there are no real epic adventures for lvl 20+. I wish D&D5th kept something similar to the epic destinies of 4th. I find that it was a flavorful way to offer both a goal and an epic closure for characters. If anything I'd like to have 1 adventure lvl 20+ in which you embark on your last quest as an adventurer, test yourself, and claim your place among the legends of the realms.
WOTC research found most games stop around 10 to 12 th level. From 1E on most of the PC charts topped out at 20th.
Welllll.... there is an argument (which I certainly did not originate but I find somewhat convincing) that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, of sorts. There has been little support for the 15+ game. WOTC has only published one adventure that goes up that high, and it was published, I believe, in 2018. So if they don't publish adventures that go into the high teens, is it any wonder that most games stop at around 12-15? That's where all their published adventures stop, after all.
This would be like JK Rowling, immediately after publishing the 7th and final Harry Potter novel, arguing that there was no reason to write an 8th HP novel because no one had ever read more than 7 HP novels. We couldn't read them if they didn't exist.
And people can't play level 16-20 if WOTC has not published them, unless they homebrew. Now sure, some people do, but it's not going to be as many as play the published adventures. I don't know how many homebrew vs. play published games, and I don't know how many homebrews go to level 16+, but we can say that nearly 100% of people who play published campaigns, are playing in games that stop by level 12-15, because all of the published ones do, except Mad Mage.
And furthermore, for that final tier, which many DMs feel is the hardest tier to run, with only 1 published book to use for reference, even DMs who want to run a game at that level, have almost nothing to use as a template, as an example, as a calibration for how they should run their own game. This is in contrast to the dozen or more books that start at level 1 and can serve as a reference for the aspiring DM.
Now, if WOTC put out 20 adventures from level 15-20, would they be as popular as the 1-10 stuff? I dunno, but probably not. However, since they have put almost ZERO out at that level, it is hardly any surprise that almost ZERO players game at that level. Again, we can't play what doesn't exist.
I find this odd. I've been roleplaying for almost 30 years but I only started playing D&D in the last year. In that time, I have almost never used a published adventure, either as a player or a GM. I can think of maybe 3 times I have played in a published module over those 30 years. I'm also aware that D&D has far more published adventures than any other game system out there so is this something that is common for D&D? Are there a lot of players out there who just run the published adventures, going from one to another and then stopping the game when they hit level 15 and start a totally new game?
I can see the lack of reference being a challenge but if you've been running a game for 15 levels I would think you'd have a pretty good handle on how to modify and create challenging encounters by then. If you want to play at that level is the lack of published content really stopping people?
I can see the lack of reference being a challenge but if you've been running a game for 15 levels I would think you'd have a pretty good handle on how to modify and create challenging encounters by then. If you want to play at that level is the lack of published content really stopping people?
Ehhh... Yes and no. The lack of published content doesn't have to stop groups from playing at lvl 15+, but levels 1-10 have relatively little in common with tier 4 play. The abilities, resources and influence characters have at such levels are really not comparable, so those first ten levels really can't prepare you properly for the peculiarities of the last five.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yes, since the 1970s. D&D put out dozens of adventures with code numbers like "B1, D2, G3" and so on. They were called "modules" because they were meant to modularly fit into your own game wherever you needed to slot them in. On the cover they told you the expected level range and party size (e.g., "a level 1-3 adventure for 4-6 characters"). They had maps, NPCs, monsters, treasure, dungeons, etc. Even people who mostly homebrewed, often bought and ran these individual modules as part of their adventure list.
And even if they didn't run them (I personally bought far more than I ever ran), we had them to use as a template -- a guide as to how to build D&D adventures.
Are there a lot of players out there who just run the published adventures, going from one to another and then stopping the game when they hit level 15 and start a totally new game?
Yes, lots of people do, in fact, do that.
If you want to play at that level is the lack of published content really stopping people?
Stopping them? No. Hindering them? Yes.
I only run one game, and it's all the D&D that I play. It's homebrew. But I still look up other stuff to get fodder for my own system. When my team went to the Astral Sea, I used the 4th edition Astral Plane book as a reference.
And my best friend is in 4 total games, mine and 3 others. Of the 4, only 25% (mine) are homebrew. The other three are Waterdeep, Princes of the Apocalypse, and Rime. He also considered getting into 2 other games, one of which was also Rime, and another of which might have been Out of the Abyss (not sure about that one), so if you count those it's way less than 25%. Statistical sample? Not even close. But it shows you how just randomly, lots of folks run published games.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Huh, ok, I guess is a D&D thing. Those of you who have been playing D&D a long time, has this always been the case? Were many people (possibly a majority, possibly not) running only published modules in previous editions? Is this partially because of the massive influx of new players to 5th ed?
Huh, ok, I guess is a D&D thing. Those of you who have been playing D&D a long time, has this always been the case? Were many people (possibly a majority, possibly not) running only published modules in previous editions? Is this partially because of the massive influx of new players to 5th ed?
It's always been mixed for me. My situation's similar to Lyxen's, as I live in Belgium - tracking down official publications wasn't always easy in the previous century, and they weren't always affordable enough. We liked using published modules, it's always cool to check out how the official designers do things, but there wasn't really enough available not to homebrew and homebrewing campaigns is a ton of fun for the DM and they can be a blast for the players. It's something unique, that you know nobody else will ever play.
One of the main reasons for the influx of new players are streamed campaigns and a lot of the popular ones are completely homebrew, so I don't think that pushes players towards only using published modules. New players and DMs cutting their teeth on published material first makes sense, but I'd expect the fans of CritRole, MCDM, the High Rollers and others to want to try their hand at creating something of their own as well after a while (those who actually play, at least). If I had to guess it's more that it's become a whole lot easier to cram our free time full of fun things to - the TV, movie and gaming offers have exploded as well - and creating your own setting and campaign can be very time consuming at least initially. You can minimize that work and do only as much as you will need for the next session or two and keep adding to it that way, but that tends to become harder and harder as the party goes up in level (you probably only need like a town, some surrounding areas and some general background info about the setting at first, but if you like to give your players a lot of freedom in what they want to do they're going to use it - and mid-level characters can travel fast and will be curious about all sorts of things).
Huh, ok, I guess is a D&D thing. Those of you who have been playing D&D a long time, has this always been the case? Were many people (possibly a majority, possibly not) running only published modules in previous editions? Is this partially because of the massive influx of new players to 5th ed?
I’ve been playing D&D for 25+ years and have never played through a published adventure. I don’t expect that my experience is representative though.
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Hi,
I have been perusing the forums this morning, and I came across this question. Can I build beyond level 20? - Psychicrage. The answer is not on DDB, but the question made me wonder; why wizards do away with levels beyond 20 and epic play specifically?
It seems like an odd move, but maybe those who played before 5e might know the reason.
XD
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Because it is very hard to create a good, engaging and balanced content for epic level play.
And it's a vicious cycle - most campaigns don't last that long and most people don't play at those levels so they don't create much content for it. Of course the fact that they don't create much content for it means that not many people play at that level and so on...
They didn't. Nothing stops you from playing once you've reached level 20. Check out the epic boons and stuff like that.
Epic boons can provide the after level 20 experience. I do think there is a small number, and you would likely need to homebrew some, although I think it's great! :D
I might homebrew some soon.
For those who have played at high levels, you know the reason - the game just really starts to break down. Fundamental design pillars like bounded accuracy and the spell system just can't handle play outside of the expected bounds. They studied how people played, found that the majority of games spend their time in the level 3-10 zone, and optimized the game for those tiers of play. The system strains the farther you get from there.
They have also targeted the vast majority of content at those levels. Perhaps with the new accelerated rate of content production we will see a bit more attention to higher levels. As it is you really need to homebrew monsters to challenge level 20 parties, although I think the Theros book provided some good guidelines for what kinds of things you can do.
I also think there was backlash from 4e, which a lot of people felt pushed adventurers too far towards a "superhero" feel. Many gamers were turned off by epic play, and I think the dev response to that in 5e is apparent (although not exactly consistent - 4e had no power equivalent to level 9 spells for example).
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Other than one book, they don't even have any content for level 16-20... What would the point be of creating a level of play they don't support?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think the simple answer is that they didn't get rid of epic play.
Levels 16-20 is "epic play" for D&D and characters at that level, especially with some of the level 20 capstone features, can do some truly crazy stuff.
Due to the nature of the rules system, there will always be some form of cap - if a new official rulebook came out tomorrow, with rules for levels 21-50, then we'd rapidly see people requesting rules for "Epic play past level 50" - I think it's just the nature of the game.
The official solution is, as mentioned by others, epic boons, blessings and other additional features that can be added to characters rather than additional levels past 20.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
WOTC research found most games stop around 10 to 12 th level. From 1E on most of the PC charts topped out at 20th.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Welllll.... there is an argument (which I certainly did not originate but I find somewhat convincing) that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, of sorts. There has been little support for the 15+ game. WOTC has only published one adventure that goes up that high, and it was published, I believe, in 2018. So if they don't publish adventures that go into the high teens, is it any wonder that most games stop at around 12-15? That's where all their published adventures stop, after all.
This would be like JK Rowling, immediately after publishing the 7th and final Harry Potter novel, arguing that there was no reason to write an 8th HP novel because no one had ever read more than 7 HP novels. We couldn't read them if they didn't exist.
And people can't play level 16-20 if WOTC has not published them, unless they homebrew. Now sure, some people do, but it's not going to be as many as play the published adventures. I don't know how many homebrew vs. play published games, and I don't know how many homebrews go to level 16+, but we can say that nearly 100% of people who play published campaigns, are playing in games that stop by level 12-15, because all of the published ones do, except Mad Mage.
And furthermore, for that final tier, which many DMs feel is the hardest tier to run, with only 1 published book to use for reference, even DMs who want to run a game at that level, have almost nothing to use as a template, as an example, as a calibration for how they should run their own game. This is in contrast to the dozen or more books that start at level 1 and can serve as a reference for the aspiring DM.
Now, if WOTC put out 20 adventures from level 15-20, would they be as popular as the 1-10 stuff? I dunno, but probably not. However, since they have put almost ZERO out at that level, it is hardly any surprise that almost ZERO players game at that level. Again, we can't play what doesn't exist.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I wouldn't mind an official campaign or two to take players to level 20, but it's very likely not really worth the effort. I'll mine the DMs' Guild instead if I feel so inclined.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Maybe Wizards can use UA to test the waters of epic adventures before they publish it. They already use UA often to play test races, subclasses, and various game mechanics, so I think they can use UA to gauge interest and solicit feedback on less mechanical stuff too, like tier of play, puzzles, flavor, etc.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
After 15th level, the party is so ridiculously powerful that everyone starts longing for tiers 1 & 2 again. And considering how long it takes to get to 15th level that’s a genuine achievement in itself that everyone lasted that long anyway. (Fer reals.)
Please note, even when TSR was running things the level cap had already decreased between 1e and 2e, and would have likely continued to trend downward roughly parallel to what WotC has done from over the last 24 years owning the IP. Heck WotC built 3e using the test content and market research that TSR was already working with and had already secretly tested during 2e under the guise of the three Players’ Options titles.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The Epic Level Handbook was one of the most poorly balanced sourcebooks in all of 3rd Edition, and there's some serious competition there.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I often players beyond lvl 20-ish. And with some of my current character approaching lvl 20, it does sadden me that there are no real epic adventures for lvl 20+. I wish D&D5th kept something similar to the epic destinies of 4th. I find that it was a flavorful way to offer both a goal and an epic closure for characters. If anything I'd like to have 1 adventure lvl 20+ in which you embark on your last quest as an adventurer, test yourself, and claim your place among the legends of the realms.
I find this odd. I've been roleplaying for almost 30 years but I only started playing D&D in the last year. In that time, I have almost never used a published adventure, either as a player or a GM. I can think of maybe 3 times I have played in a published module over those 30 years. I'm also aware that D&D has far more published adventures than any other game system out there so is this something that is common for D&D? Are there a lot of players out there who just run the published adventures, going from one to another and then stopping the game when they hit level 15 and start a totally new game?
I can see the lack of reference being a challenge but if you've been running a game for 15 levels I would think you'd have a pretty good handle on how to modify and create challenging encounters by then. If you want to play at that level is the lack of published content really stopping people?
Ehhh... Yes and no. The lack of published content doesn't have to stop groups from playing at lvl 15+, but levels 1-10 have relatively little in common with tier 4 play. The abilities, resources and influence characters have at such levels are really not comparable, so those first ten levels really can't prepare you properly for the peculiarities of the last five.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yes, since the 1970s. D&D put out dozens of adventures with code numbers like "B1, D2, G3" and so on. They were called "modules" because they were meant to modularly fit into your own game wherever you needed to slot them in. On the cover they told you the expected level range and party size (e.g., "a level 1-3 adventure for 4-6 characters"). They had maps, NPCs, monsters, treasure, dungeons, etc. Even people who mostly homebrewed, often bought and ran these individual modules as part of their adventure list.
And even if they didn't run them (I personally bought far more than I ever ran), we had them to use as a template -- a guide as to how to build D&D adventures.
Yes, lots of people do, in fact, do that.
Stopping them? No. Hindering them? Yes.
I only run one game, and it's all the D&D that I play. It's homebrew. But I still look up other stuff to get fodder for my own system. When my team went to the Astral Sea, I used the 4th edition Astral Plane book as a reference.
And my best friend is in 4 total games, mine and 3 others. Of the 4, only 25% (mine) are homebrew. The other three are Waterdeep, Princes of the Apocalypse, and Rime. He also considered getting into 2 other games, one of which was also Rime, and another of which might have been Out of the Abyss (not sure about that one), so if you count those it's way less than 25%. Statistical sample? Not even close. But it shows you how just randomly, lots of folks run published games.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Huh, ok, I guess is a D&D thing. Those of you who have been playing D&D a long time, has this always been the case? Were many people (possibly a majority, possibly not) running only published modules in previous editions? Is this partially because of the massive influx of new players to 5th ed?
It's always been mixed for me. My situation's similar to Lyxen's, as I live in Belgium - tracking down official publications wasn't always easy in the previous century, and they weren't always affordable enough. We liked using published modules, it's always cool to check out how the official designers do things, but there wasn't really enough available not to homebrew and homebrewing campaigns is a ton of fun for the DM and they can be a blast for the players. It's something unique, that you know nobody else will ever play.
One of the main reasons for the influx of new players are streamed campaigns and a lot of the popular ones are completely homebrew, so I don't think that pushes players towards only using published modules. New players and DMs cutting their teeth on published material first makes sense, but I'd expect the fans of CritRole, MCDM, the High Rollers and others to want to try their hand at creating something of their own as well after a while (those who actually play, at least). If I had to guess it's more that it's become a whole lot easier to cram our free time full of fun things to - the TV, movie and gaming offers have exploded as well - and creating your own setting and campaign can be very time consuming at least initially. You can minimize that work and do only as much as you will need for the next session or two and keep adding to it that way, but that tends to become harder and harder as the party goes up in level (you probably only need like a town, some surrounding areas and some general background info about the setting at first, but if you like to give your players a lot of freedom in what they want to do they're going to use it - and mid-level characters can travel fast and will be curious about all sorts of things).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I’ve been playing D&D for 25+ years and have never played through a published adventure. I don’t expect that my experience is representative though.