The standard for monsters is that a monster's damage output is about 1/3 of its hit points, which with saves and hit chance means an even fight between monsters would last around five rounds. By comparison, PCs are usually glass cannons; most classes can be expected to produce damage output comparable to their hit points in two rounds, and a wizard or sorcerer has a good chance of doing it in one. This means that adversaries who look like PCs produce fast, swingy fights that depend heavily on initiative.
Not sure how to adjust things. Maybe give everyone max hp?
The standard for monsters is that a monster's damage output is about 1/3 of its hit points, which with saves and hit chance means an even fight between monsters would last around five rounds. By comparison, PCs are usually glass cannons; most classes can be expected to produce damage output comparable to their hit points in two rounds, and a wizard or sorcerer has a good chance of doing it in one. This means that adversaries who look like PCs produce fast, swingy fights that depend heavily on initiative.
Not sure how to adjust things. Maybe give everyone max hp?
There are multiple threads on that. I love to create NPC's, using PC stat blocs, as BBEG's. I have learned it is a fool's errand. You HAVE to give the BBEG minions, Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, to try to tamp down the "swinginess". There is nothing wrong with starting with a PC stat block, but you must add to that, giving it all kinds of non-turn damage mitigation abilities, and non-turn damage creation abilities aka multiple Reactions aka Legendary Actions. And yes, you have to bump the HP of any PC originated stat block.
The standard for monsters is that a monster's damage output is about 1/3 of its hit points, which with saves and hit chance means an even fight between monsters would last around five rounds. By comparison, PCs are usually glass cannons; most classes can be expected to produce damage output comparable to their hit points in two rounds, and a wizard or sorcerer has a good chance of doing it in one. This means that adversaries who look like PCs produce fast, swingy fights that depend heavily on initiative.
Not sure how to adjust things. Maybe give everyone max hp?
Ignoring some level 20 weirdness, here's the standard formula (things get weird with the CRs below 1, so I'm leaving them out for now):
Monster Damage: (3-8)+CR*6 (monster attack bonus doesn't follow a consistent pattern I can see - I have a messy function that produces it, but it's basically two different step functions meshed together with a handful of corner cases)
Monster Health: (56-70)+CR*15 (monster AC is 8 + proficiency bonus + expected dexterity bonus of a rogue (so 3 at 1, 4 at 4, 5 at 8 and stop scaling) by CR, with a hiccup at level 9 where AC is 1 less than it should be, so CR 9 monsters are more fragile than expected)
So just in terms of health and dpr (assuming everything hits), a monster's damage to health ratio should generally be between (3+6*CR)/(56+15*CR) and (8+6*CR)/(70+15*CR). That's a curve that starts out around 1/8 to 1/6 at CR 1 and curves up asymptotically - at CR infinity, the ratio is 6/15 no matter what numbers you pick, which is 4/10 (0.4). For CR 1, the ratio bottoms out at 0.106, or around 1/10.
Not sure how to adjust things. Maybe give everyone max hp?
I regularly create major NPCs using the PC rules. I guess it’s because I am a Player more often than a DM so it helps me blend mechanics with personality in a way I personally find more intuitive. I guess it’s a crutch of sorts.
I give the (N)PCs Max HP for their class and level at the minimum, and often up to 50% extra HP if they are supposed to be a “solo boss.” Lots of times I also try to find a homebrew subclass that is extra fluffy with cool ass features, but not necessarily high DPR. (If I cannot find one I write one if I feel it is appropriate.) Then I also typically give them extra feats that allow them to do lots of cool stuff, especially for non spellcasters. The spellcasters don’t know/prepare any spells for their highest level (or two) spell slots, so while they can upcast they likely can’t nuke the party. Finally it’s time for magic items and any other basic equipment they would physically carry on them all the time. Usually that means skipping the blankets and torches, etc. (unless they are itinerant like the PCs.) As one of my closest friends always says, “you truly know your character when you can list whatever is in their pockets without having to check their sheet.”
Once they are “ready(ish),” if I have any legitimate expectation that character will likely end up in combat against the party I then convert the whole “PC” into a monster statblock to cut all the non-combat related stuff so it’s easier to use during actual combat. (Legitimately, the main focus is omitting the stuff that I won’t likely need at a glance mid combat like tool proficiencies, etc.) Once that’s done I start to consider adding Legendary/Lair Actions if it’s a solo boss, often not if they will be working as a party with the other (N)PCs. Then, whatever “monster type stuff” I added like (legendary actions, etc.) I can create as feats to add to their regular character sheet. I use the regular sheet for non-combat encounters, but it’s also their “master list” too. (Occasionally I have even added their monster statblock to their character sheet as an extra so I have it just in case combat happens unexpectedly and I haven’t actually “built” the encounter. Especially since the combat tracker is... less than entirely useful at the best of times (and downright crap the rest of the time. (I am really looking forward to that thing not loosing everything if I accidentally tap the wrong part of the screen. 🤬)
Note, I only make my “notable NPCs” by starting them as PCs. Those are the “costars” of the adventures after all. That’s why Hollywood always casts the main villain(s) with an actor of equal note as the actors playing the hero(s). For anyone that isn’t supposed to be perceived as a “peer/rival” level major figure by the players I just make them as monsters and save myself the time. After all, the average life expectancy of most things the party will face in combat is between 24-30 seconds, so why bother?
The only reason I create those major NPCs as PCs in the first place is so I can get to know them well enough to play them all at any given time during any session. However, for the NOCs that are supposed to be all RP and nothing combative whatsoever, then I usually just start with a Commoner and adjust it by applying their appropriate race (like a template of traits) and adding a background. (So a “Human Commoner” would have 11s for most of their Ability scores with one 10 and one 12 (for variety), and they would also know an extra basic language. If they are a sailor then they get Ship’s Passage (the Sailor/Pirate background feature), or if they are a carpenter they would instead get Guild Business (from the Guild Artisan/Guild Merchant background). I usually just pick Suggested Characteristics from that background to flesh their personalities out a little, supplementing those lists as needed. I suspect the reason for why I use the two different methods is because for the BBEs I start with a villain and then use that to develop the character, but for the regular NPCs that the party will likely interact with far more frequently I start with the character and then just need to know what they are capable of if it comes up.
For example, if the villains of a particular Adventure are a crew of pirates then the Captain and possibly a couple of other noteworthy evil crew members would get built as PCs and then converted to monsters, and for the rest of the evil crew I would use monsters like a mix of Pirates and Bandits. For the one or two members of the crew that would likely be non-hostile/friendly to the PCs I would use a jazzed up version of either the Pirate or Commoner statblocks depending on which felt more appropriate for each specific character.
It should be a viable option (well, not as a solo boss -- as a team). It currently isn't.
Honest question: why? Regardless of whether it is or isn't, why should it be?
Because things like the rival adventuring party, or the evil analogues, and so on, are classics?
And they have to be built like PCs?
They have to be built enough like PCs to look like PCs at the level of interaction players are likely to have.
Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
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Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
So it looks like a PC well enough, but is still built too much like one? Isn't that more of an argument for me than for you? ;-)
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Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
Combat in 5th Edition is supposed to be rocket tag. It's not like, say, 2nd Edition where encounters can go on long enough that a spell with a duration of 1 minute per caster level might expire during the fight.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
Combat in 5th Edition is supposed to be rocket tag. It's not like, say, 2nd Edition where encounters can go on long enough that a spell with a duration of 1 minute per caster level might expire during the fight.
Most combat encounters in 5e do last only 3 or 4 turns. But DM's should all aspire to make them last 10 turns, so spell duration is actually meaningful. One of my DM's uses Sleet Storm very very effectively to have encounters last a full 10 turns.
It should be a viable option (well, not as a solo boss -- as a team). It currently isn't.
Sure it is, depending on your definition of "look like."
All signs point to them throwing out the PC as NPC design early in the process for 5e. Monsters have been heavily streamlined with an emphasis on ease of use and minimizing the load on the DM. A DM running 4-5 PCs goes against many of the built-in assumptions of how combat should run, not just how it turns out due to hp/damage ratios.
Every class has 1-2 signature features that, along with your description of them, clearly announce their identity. Action Surge. Channel Divinity. Flurry of Blows. Hex. You can add a signature subclass feature as well if you like. And that's all you need to give the players the impression they are fighting PC classes.
Running combat is complicated enough already. Don't try to make PC blocks more like monsters, make monster block look a bit more like PCs.
Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
So it looks like a PC well enough, but is still built too much like one? Isn't that more of an argument for me than for you? ;-)
My point is not actually that we should build monsters like PCs. My point is that PCs should be built more like monsters, with a somewhat lower offense to defense ratio.
My point is not actually that we should build monsters like PCs. My point is that PCs should be built more like monsters, with a somewhat lower offense to defense ratio.
I think that would make the game (for PCs) longer and less risky. Basically, more of a grind and less of a game.
I suppose, if your goal is to make PC-like NPCs more fun to fight, you should adjust their stats.
Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
So it looks like a PC well enough, but is still built too much like one? Isn't that more of an argument for me than for you? ;-)
My point is not actually that we should build monsters like PCs. My point is that PCs should be built more like monsters, with a somewhat lower offense to defense ratio.
I admit I’m a bit lost again. You want PCs to be built more like monsters, so you can use PCs as monsters. That’s the argument I thought we were working with. I’m still on the side of using monsters as monsters, they fit in well enough to be used as evil counterparty in my book so there’s no need to use PCs as monsters.
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The standard for monsters is that a monster's damage output is about 1/3 of its hit points, which with saves and hit chance means an even fight between monsters would last around five rounds. By comparison, PCs are usually glass cannons; most classes can be expected to produce damage output comparable to their hit points in two rounds, and a wizard or sorcerer has a good chance of doing it in one. This means that adversaries who look like PCs produce fast, swingy fights that depend heavily on initiative.
Not sure how to adjust things. Maybe give everyone max hp?
Maybe don't create adversaries who look like PCs?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There are multiple threads on that. I love to create NPC's, using PC stat blocs, as BBEG's. I have learned it is a fool's errand. You HAVE to give the BBEG minions, Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, to try to tamp down the "swinginess". There is nothing wrong with starting with a PC stat block, but you must add to that, giving it all kinds of non-turn damage mitigation abilities, and non-turn damage creation abilities aka multiple Reactions aka Legendary Actions. And yes, you have to bump the HP of any PC originated stat block.
Ignoring some level 20 weirdness, here's the standard formula (things get weird with the CRs below 1, so I'm leaving them out for now):
Monster Damage: (3-8)+CR*6 (monster attack bonus doesn't follow a consistent pattern I can see - I have a messy function that produces it, but it's basically two different step functions meshed together with a handful of corner cases)
Monster Health: (56-70)+CR*15 (monster AC is 8 + proficiency bonus + expected dexterity bonus of a rogue (so 3 at 1, 4 at 4, 5 at 8 and stop scaling) by CR, with a hiccup at level 9 where AC is 1 less than it should be, so CR 9 monsters are more fragile than expected)
So just in terms of health and dpr (assuming everything hits), a monster's damage to health ratio should generally be between (3+6*CR)/(56+15*CR) and (8+6*CR)/(70+15*CR). That's a curve that starts out around 1/8 to 1/6 at CR 1 and curves up asymptotically - at CR infinity, the ratio is 6/15 no matter what numbers you pick, which is 4/10 (0.4). For CR 1, the ratio bottoms out at 0.106, or around 1/10.
It should be a viable option (well, not as a solo boss -- as a team). It currently isn't.
Honest question: why? Regardless of whether it is or isn't, why should it be?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Because things like the rival adventuring party, or the evil analogues, and so on, are classics?
And they have to be built like PCs?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
They have to be built enough like PCs to look like PCs at the level of interaction players are likely to have.
I regularly create major NPCs using the PC rules. I guess it’s because I am a Player more often than a DM so it helps me blend mechanics with personality in a way I personally find more intuitive. I guess it’s a crutch of sorts.
I give the (N)PCs Max HP for their class and level at the minimum, and often up to 50% extra HP if they are supposed to be a “solo boss.” Lots of times I also try to find a homebrew subclass that is extra fluffy with cool ass features, but not necessarily high DPR. (If I cannot find one I write one if I feel it is appropriate.) Then I also typically give them extra feats that allow them to do lots of cool stuff, especially for non spellcasters. The spellcasters don’t know/prepare any spells for their highest level (or two) spell slots, so while they can upcast they likely can’t nuke the party. Finally it’s time for magic items and any other basic equipment they would physically carry on them all the time. Usually that means skipping the blankets and torches, etc. (unless they are itinerant like the PCs.) As one of my closest friends always says, “you truly know your character when you can list whatever is in their pockets without having to check their sheet.”
Once they are “ready(ish),” if I have any legitimate expectation that character will likely end up in combat against the party I then convert the whole “PC” into a monster statblock to cut all the non-combat related stuff so it’s easier to use during actual combat. (Legitimately, the main focus is omitting the stuff that I won’t likely need at a glance mid combat like tool proficiencies, etc.) Once that’s done I start to consider adding Legendary/Lair Actions if it’s a solo boss, often not if they will be working as a party with the other (N)PCs. Then, whatever “monster type stuff” I added like (legendary actions, etc.) I can create as feats to add to their regular character sheet. I use the regular sheet for non-combat encounters, but it’s also their “master list” too. (Occasionally I have even added their monster statblock to their character sheet as an extra so I have it just in case combat happens unexpectedly and I haven’t actually “built” the encounter. Especially since the combat tracker is... less than entirely useful at the best of times (and downright crap the rest of the time. (I am really looking forward to that thing not loosing everything if I accidentally tap the wrong part of the screen. 🤬)
Note, I only make my “notable NPCs” by starting them as PCs. Those are the “costars” of the adventures after all. That’s why Hollywood always casts the main villain(s) with an actor of equal note as the actors playing the hero(s). For anyone that isn’t supposed to be perceived as a “peer/rival” level major figure by the players I just make them as monsters and save myself the time. After all, the average life expectancy of most things the party will face in combat is between 24-30 seconds, so why bother?
The only reason I create those major NPCs as PCs in the first place is so I can get to know them well enough to play them all at any given time during any session. However, for the NOCs that are supposed to be all RP and nothing combative whatsoever, then I usually just start with a Commoner and adjust it by applying their appropriate race (like a template of traits) and adding a background. (So a “Human Commoner” would have 11s for most of their Ability scores with one 10 and one 12 (for variety), and they would also know an extra basic language. If they are a sailor then they get Ship’s Passage (the Sailor/Pirate background feature), or if they are a carpenter they would instead get Guild Business (from the Guild Artisan/Guild Merchant background). I usually just pick Suggested Characteristics from that background to flesh their personalities out a little, supplementing those lists as needed.
I suspect the reason for why I use the two different methods is because for the BBEs I start with a villain and then use that to develop the character, but for the regular NPCs that the party will likely interact with far more frequently I start with the character and then just need to know what they are capable of if it comes up.
For example, if the villains of a particular Adventure are a crew of pirates then the Captain and possibly a couple of other noteworthy evil crew members would get built as PCs and then converted to monsters, and for the rest of the evil crew I would use monsters like a mix of Pirates and Bandits. For the one or two members of the crew that would likely be non-hostile/friendly to the PCs I would use a jazzed up version of either the Pirate or Commoner statblocks depending on which felt more appropriate for each specific character.
I hope that helps.
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Does the Archmage not look enough like a PC, for instance? And if so, is that not something that can be changed freeform, without going through regular character creation?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The Archmage does, but has many of the same problems as using PC builds; rocket tag encounters don't tend to be great game play.
So it looks like a PC well enough, but is still built too much like one? Isn't that more of an argument for me than for you? ;-)
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Combat in 5th Edition is supposed to be rocket tag. It's not like, say, 2nd Edition where encounters can go on long enough that a spell with a duration of 1 minute per caster level might expire during the fight.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Most combat encounters in 5e do last only 3 or 4 turns. But DM's should all aspire to make them last 10 turns, so spell duration is actually meaningful. One of my DM's uses Sleet Storm very very effectively to have encounters last a full 10 turns.
Sure it is, depending on your definition of "look like."
All signs point to them throwing out the PC as NPC design early in the process for 5e. Monsters have been heavily streamlined with an emphasis on ease of use and minimizing the load on the DM. A DM running 4-5 PCs goes against many of the built-in assumptions of how combat should run, not just how it turns out due to hp/damage ratios.
Every class has 1-2 signature features that, along with your description of them, clearly announce their identity. Action Surge. Channel Divinity. Flurry of Blows. Hex. You can add a signature subclass feature as well if you like. And that's all you need to give the players the impression they are fighting PC classes.
Running combat is complicated enough already. Don't try to make PC blocks more like monsters, make monster block look a bit more like PCs.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
My point is not actually that we should build monsters like PCs. My point is that PCs should be built more like monsters, with a somewhat lower offense to defense ratio.
I think that would make the game (for PCs) longer and less risky. Basically, more of a grind and less of a game.
I suppose, if your goal is to make PC-like NPCs more fun to fight, you should adjust their stats.
Why?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I admit I’m a bit lost again. You want PCs to be built more like monsters, so you can use PCs as monsters. That’s the argument I thought we were working with. I’m still on the side of using monsters as monsters, they fit in well enough to be used as evil counterparty in my book so there’s no need to use PCs as monsters.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].