I'm not sure why the comparison to other classes which are far more 'apples to oranges' comparisons instead of to battlemaster anyway. Comparing it to completely different classes with different base toolkits is always going to be messier than the battlemaster comparison, where the core starting feature of the subclass is extra things you can do on a hit (for the most part, not all maneuvers/shots are on hit effects but for sake of simplicity) that do different things. Since they share the same same base class and the arcane shots/maneuvers work similarly mechanically, I don't really see a reason to bring up warlocks or paladins when talking about arcane archer as a fighter subclass.
Agreed. Comparing subclass features within the same class makes more sense.
I feel like it makes sense for the shot uses to not be as plentiful as the maneuvers on one hand, because they do generally seem more impactful. Having aoe options, nearly blinding a creature for a round, getting free damage on a creature you've lost track of and potentially finding their location etc.
But I do think AA could use SOME more scaling rather than one damage boost at level 18 and getting one more use when rolling initiative without any at 15. Such as maybe having one part of the damage scaling come at level 10 for example, where the subclass currently doesn't get a new full feature and just one more shot selection, not shot use.
I don't feel like it's a 'bad' subclass but it just feels like it needs something there at level 10 other than another arcane shot selection to make it really feel complete. Like it's almost there but falling just short, or that's how it makes me feel anyway.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
I suggested the same thing half an age ago, if memory serves in a ranger thread. Sorcerers give up a lot compared to wizards, and get relatively little in return. The redeeming feature for me is that Cha based skills are more fun to use than Int based ones, but in objective terms that doesn't count. Sorcerers multiclass exceedingly well but given that sorcery points depend on sorcerer levels only that's not necessarily much of a concern, sorlock spell slot conversion shenanigans notwithstanding.
How would you deal with the later bonus that is usually "Pick another metamagic"? Woukd you just count it as already obtained, or would you have another bonus instead?
I'd add another bonus, make it more attractive to stick with sorcerer instead of multiclassing out. Maybe half Arcane Recovery (combined level up to 1/4 of your sorcerer level rounded up, no higher than 3rd level slots) at level 10 and full Arcane Recovery at level 17 or something similar. Given that it'd take at least 10 sorcerer levels, I don't think it'd get out of hand with a warlock or paladin multiclass.
My solution is similar, but a little simpler. I scale the capstone feature Sorcerous Restoration so that you get 2 sorcery points back each short rest at 10, three at 17, and then four at 20. I suspect you could bump those up a bit considering that most people consider SR to be one of the worst capstones, but I haven't tried it in actual play yet. It's probably worth adding another something at 20 to reward full classing.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
I completely agree. Metamagic is supposed to make up for Sorcerers so many fewer spells but the options just aren't versatile enough for that individually. I think having that bit of extra flexibility would help make up for not having the Wizard's ritual casting which I think people underrate, but it goes a long way since they don't need to prepare those spells and they get so many spells when gaining levels. It may still be worth adding Origin spells for the older subclasses, perhaps at a reduced rate of perhaps just 1 per spell level (instead of 2 per like the Tasha's subclasses).
(What I meant to say was, the Archer gets his shots back on a short rest, while the Barbarian only gets his Rage back on a long rest. In a "properly" paced adventure, the Archer will have more uses per day on average.)
I don't think it's fair to say most of the shots rely on a saving throw. Most of them have an automatic effect. All of them at least deal regular bow damage, and their bonus damage is also automatic like the maneuvers. The DC is an interesting point though.
That's fair to say that since rages are a long rest, but a single rage can last an entire combat and will have a much larger effect than a single Arcane Shot so it's probably just not a good comparison in general.
Regarding saving throws, I wasn't necessarily referring to the damage being automatic or not, but rather the effect which is the primary purpose for using the ability, especially with so few uses. Only 3 of the 8 shots (Bursting, Grasping, Piercing) have an automatic effect and 2 of those (Bursting, Piercing) only deal damage and function more like blast spells which was not what I was referring to. I think those are generally fine. However, Battle Master has maneuvers like Bait and Switch or Manuevering Attack whose effect is guaranteed (and certainly not a weak effect at that).
My point is that Arcane Archer is more dependent on having a good DC to make use of its abilities than is Battle Master and its save DC is naturally weaker due to being an ability score that will not otherwise have points put into it. If those abilities could be relied upon more, then it could be worth pumping INT to lean more heavily into them. If the number of uses scaled with the INT modifier and perhaps you could add the INT modifier to damage, then I think there could be an interesting INT-heavy Arcane Archer build.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
It's not the Fighter's fault that they only have one good subclass.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
The Champion at least has mostly passive buffs that you don't have to worry about being used up. The Eldritch Knight gives expanded options on what to do for your action and has a larger resource pool to draw from after you've gained a few levels. And the PDK... is just terrible, there's no other way to put it.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
It's not the Fighter's fault that they only have one good subclass.
I'd say about half of them are decent to good. Arcane Archer is not one of those though.
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People ignore that the Arcane Archer gets cantrips. I always felt like the fact that you can reskin an attack cantrip like Fire Bolt into a fire arrow was close enough to capturing the "shooting magic arrows fantasy" that the class is built on. You can do it all day, and the damage scales to vaguely mirror Extra Attack. But it doesn't suggest for you to reskin your spells, like some later subclasses do, so maybe that's part of the issue?
I mean yes, technically since it's not a bow attack you don't get to apply any of your magic bow's effects, but there's only one magic bow in any of the books anyway, so it seems as though maybe you're not meant to have one to begin with. The main thing is you can't use Curving Shot with it, and I'll agree that that's a flavor fail as well as a thing that mechanically has an impact.
People ignore that the Arcane Archer gets cantrips. I always felt like the fact that you can reskin an attack cantrip like Fire Bolt into a fire arrow was close enough to capturing the "shooting magic arrows fantasy" that the class is built on. You can do it all day, and the damage scales to vaguely mirror Extra Attack. But it doesn't suggest for you to reskin your spells, like some later subclasses do, so maybe that's part of the issue?
I mean yes, technically since it's not a bow attack you don't get to apply any of your magic bow's effects, but there's only one magic bow in any of the books anyway, so it seems as though maybe you're not meant to have one to begin with. The main thing is you can't use Curving Shot with it, and I'll agree that that's a flavor fail as well as a thing that mechanically has an impact.
What? Are you thinking of arcane trickster?
Arcane Archer does get 'a' cantrip but it's a choice between druidcraft or prestidigitation. neat for RP flavor but not very useful in combat.
Most of you are still missing my actual point. The complaint that 2 shots is either a matter of taste (which is fine) or based on a gut feeling rather than objective analysis. The comparison to Warlock was strictly limited to the subjective experience of getting to do your Big Cool Thing X number of times per rest. Bringing up all of Warlock's minor and passive toys outside of Pact Magic misses the point, since Pact Magic is still the biggest, flashiest thing Warlock gets to do push and a player browsing Fighter subclasses is presumably happier with the Fighter's base features than they are with the Warlock's.
Arcane Archer is objectively stronger than Champion (which is highly popular despite being the worst subclass in the game) and has a similar power level to Eldritch Knight and Battle Master.
The two warlock spell slots thing is also a bit if a mismatch because...warlocks don't cap at two spell slots. Not every game makes it to 11th level but warlocks DO get more than two pact slots.
Arcane Archers don't cap at 2 shots either. I called attention to the 2 shot thing because it's the common complaint and most games don't make it to 11.
The sheer number of passive buffs / free use abilities that the Warlock has available from invocations alone gives it more to play with than a fighter and thats before even considering subclass abilities available to the warlock.
Someone looking for Warlock levels of customization wouldn't be looking at Fighter subclasses in the first place.
Secondly, if we are going to talk about Arcane Shots applying on a hit then wouldnt the more apt comparison be to Paladins instead of Warlocks?
Yes, the way Arcane Shots function is most comparable to a smite, but there's many differences across both the classes and particular shots/spells that makes a direct comparison in number of uses inappropriate.
Assuming a paladin only uses its spell slots for Divine Smite or Smite Spells, it can perform one of these smites 2 - 15 times per long rest (in this case, they have less uses than an Arcane Archer starting out but their number of uses increase as they level up to where eventually an arcane archer would need 6 short rests / day to keep up with the number of on-hit applications of their feature that they get.
Sure, but Paladins don't have a smite equivalent to most Arcane Shots, nor Action Surge, 3+ attacks or Curving Shot (which effectively adds an extra attack), and they have to get into melee range to use most smites. In the few cases where there's an obvious comparison, it costs the Paladin more. e.g. A Paladin can't use Blinding Smite until 9th level and only gets 2 uses of it a day at that point. An Arcane Archer can use Shadow Arrow starting 3rd level and use it as many times as they've got Arcane Shot uses. Paladins can't Action Surge or make as many attacks post-Blinding Smite either. Plus by the time a Paladin has 12 slots Arcane Archers have Ever-Ready Shot and are guaranteed to have at least 1 shot ready each fight.
Likewise most shots have stronger effects than Battle Master maneuvers (Battle Masters make up for it with number of uses), and Arcane Shots definitely have stronger effects and much larger number of initial uses than an Eldritch Knight's 1st level spells.
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10.
As I already said, Arcane Shots don't cost you your Attack action, and a Fighter's Attack action also continuously levels up. By 11th level an Arcane Archer has 3 guaranteed attacks and often a 4th thanks to Curving Shot. Shadow Arrow technically gets better the more attacks everyone in the party gets and Enfeebling/Banishing Arrow are roughly equally effective at any level.
... Champion (which is highly popular despite being the worst subclass in the game)...
I think both of these claims are highly questionable, though the popularity claim at least can only be supported or countered with anecdotal evidence.
It’s popular as a dip. Crit fisher builds, and many Paladin/Barbarian PCs enjoy 3 levels in fighter for Action Surge and the Fighting Style, and go Champ for the expanded crit range.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
It's not the Fighter's fault that they only have one good subclass.
Arcane Archer isn’t bad, it’s just not what people want it to be. If one stops expecting it to make it rain magic arrows, and start expecting it to be the “sure shot” option with a couple magic arrows for those special occasions its fine. They wanted to give us a subclass that was more in-depth than Da Champ, but without the potential analysis paralysis of the Battle Master. Overall it really isn’t bad, it just fails to meet the expectations people have. It suffers from a disconnect more than bad mechanics. (Like the Rune Knight.)
The Cavalier and Samurai are both really solid subclasses all on their own. The Cavalier has a little disconnect in that people think it should be “mountier” but it definitely doesn’t underperform. And I don’t know of any complaints about the Samurai.
Heck, even the Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are pretty good mechanically speaking. They mostly suffer from fact that lots of people (like me) object to the PB mechanics. But as much as I dislike the mechanic for moral reasons, even I have to admit they are functionally pretty good. The Psi Warrior also suffers from the horrid betrayal many of us feel about how Psionics is being handled this edition. But again, that’s more an emotional reaction than any genuine complaint about the efficacy of the subclass. (You really have no idea how much it pains me to defend anything from that book.)
And if one is willing to look at the pseudo-official nature of the Wildemount content, Echo Knight is baller. And as to the wholly unofficial Gunslinger, it’s an excellent replacement for what people want the Arcane Archer to be.
Fighters have a variety of solid choices for subclasses. Even Da Champ isn’t bad. It’s boring as all get out and not quite as good as some of the others, but it isn’t “bad.”
I'm curious. What do people object over with the psionics in 5E?
I started with 5E, so just legit curious here I have no investment one way or the other, wasn't around to see how psionics were handled in prior editions so I'm not sure what exactly people have an issue with on the 5E front that's different.
I'm curious. What do people object over with the psionics in 5E?
I started with 5E, so just legit curious here I have no investment one way or the other, wasn't around to see how psionics were handled in prior editions so I'm not sure what exactly people have an issue with on the 5E front that's different.
It's just flavour in 5E. Not even a school of magic, let alone its own type next to arcane and divine.
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Most of you are still missing my actual point. The complaint that 2 shots is either a matter of taste (which is fine) or based on a gut feeling rather than objective analysis. The comparison to Warlock was strictly limited to the subjective experience of getting to do your Big Cool Thing X number of times per rest. Bringing up all of Warlock's minor and passive toys outside of Pact Magic misses the point, since Pact Magic is still the biggest, flashiest thing Warlock gets to do push and a player browsing Fighter subclasses is presumably happier with the Fighter's base features than they are with the Warlock's.
When a warlock runs out of spell slots, all of its pact abilities and invocations and cantrips still make it feel like it is magical character
When an arcane archer runs out of arcane shots, they are a normal fighter who can cast prestidigitation and curve the occasional missed shot.
An arcane archer gets to feel like an arcane character twice per short rest. A warlock feels like an arcane character at all times. That is why the presence of more cantrips and their invocations are so important. They allow the warlock to continuously to use arcane skills and tricks despite being out of their twice/rest cool thing.
The main complaint from people is that because the arcane archer only really has curving shot outside of its arcane shot options, it doesnt get to feel like an arcane character for most of the adventuring day.
You may be right that it comes down to a gut feeling, but when your gut feeling about an Arcane Archer is that you get to do arcane things on a regular basis, then you probably will end up disappointed and not having fun when you find out how limited it actually is.
I'm curious. What do people object over with the psionics in 5E?
I started with 5E, so just legit curious here I have no investment one way or the other, wasn't around to see how psionics were handled in prior editions so I'm not sure what exactly people have an issue with on the 5E front that's different.
In previous editions it had its own wholly unique mechanic. In older editions it was its own entire class that rivaled Wizards without ever “casting spells.” Now it’s a pool of dice not unlike the Battle Master uses and some of what they do is represented with spellcasting. They took what had been the most unique class in D&D and turned it into the Psi Warrior, The Soulknife, and the Farhomless.
... Champion (which is highly popular despite being the worst subclass in the game)...
I think both of these claims are highly questionable, though the popularity claim at least can only be supported or countered with anecdotal evidence.
It’s popular as a dip. Crit fisher builds, and many Paladin/Barbarian PCs enjoy 3 levels in fighter for Action Surge and the Fighting Style, and go Champ for the expanded crit range.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
It's not the Fighter's fault that they only have one good subclass.
Arcane Archer isn’t bad, it’s just not what people want it to be. If one stops expecting it to make it rain magic arrows, and start expecting it to be the “sure shot” option with a couple magic arrows for those special occasions its fine. They wanted to give us a subclass that was more in-depth than Da Champ, but without the potential analysis paralysis of the Battle Master. Overall it really isn’t bad, it just fails to meet the expectations people have. It suffers from a disconnect more than bad mechanics. (Like the Rune Knight.)
The Cavalier and Samurai are both really solid subclasses all on their own. The Cavalier has a little disconnect in that people think it should be “mountier” but it definitely doesn’t underperform. And I don’t know of any complaints about the Samurai.
Heck, even the Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are pretty good mechanically speaking. They mostly suffer from fact that lots of people (like me) object to the PB mechanics. But as much as I dislike the mechanic for moral reasons, even I have to admit they are functionally pretty good. The Psi Warrior also suffers from the horrid betrayal many of us feel about how Psionics is being handled this edition. But again, that’s more an emotional reaction than any genuine complaint about the efficacy of the subclass. (You really have no idea how much it pains me to defend anything from that book.)
And if one is willing to look at the pseudo-official nature of the Wildemount content, Echo Knight is baller. And as to the wholly unofficial Gunslinger, it’s an excellent replacement for what people want the Arcane Archer to be.
Fighters have a variety of solid choices for subclasses. Even Da Champ isn’t bad. It’s boring as all get out and not quite as good as some of the others, but it isn’t “bad.”
My comment was mostly facetious but Battlemaster is (in my opinion) the best fighter subclass in the game and should have been the core framework that the Fighter class was built on. You are right, there are several good subclass, but none of them are as good as Battlemaster.
I think you are correct in your assessment of the Arcane Archer, the subclass isn't terrible, it just isn't what I want it to be.
Agreed. Comparing subclass features within the same class makes more sense.
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I feel like it makes sense for the shot uses to not be as plentiful as the maneuvers on one hand, because they do generally seem more impactful. Having aoe options, nearly blinding a creature for a round, getting free damage on a creature you've lost track of and potentially finding their location etc.
But I do think AA could use SOME more scaling rather than one damage boost at level 18 and getting one more use when rolling initiative without any at 15. Such as maybe having one part of the damage scaling come at level 10 for example, where the subclass currently doesn't get a new full feature and just one more shot selection, not shot use.
I don't feel like it's a 'bad' subclass but it just feels like it needs something there at level 10 other than another arcane shot selection to make it really feel complete. Like it's almost there but falling just short, or that's how it makes me feel anyway.
My solution is similar, but a little simpler. I scale the capstone feature Sorcerous Restoration so that you get 2 sorcery points back each short rest at 10, three at 17, and then four at 20. I suspect you could bump those up a bit considering that most people consider SR to be one of the worst capstones, but I haven't tried it in actual play yet. It's probably worth adding another something at 20 to reward full classing.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
While you only get two spell slots, your spell LEVEL goes up to 5 by level 10. Also, many of your Invocations are multi-purpose where the shots for the AA are not.
IMHO the AA is simply too limited compared to all of the other Fighter subclasses.
I completely agree. Metamagic is supposed to make up for Sorcerers so many fewer spells but the options just aren't versatile enough for that individually. I think having that bit of extra flexibility would help make up for not having the Wizard's ritual casting which I think people underrate, but it goes a long way since they don't need to prepare those spells and they get so many spells when gaining levels. It may still be worth adding Origin spells for the older subclasses, perhaps at a reduced rate of perhaps just 1 per spell level (instead of 2 per like the Tasha's subclasses).
That's fair to say that since rages are a long rest, but a single rage can last an entire combat and will have a much larger effect than a single Arcane Shot so it's probably just not a good comparison in general.
Regarding saving throws, I wasn't necessarily referring to the damage being automatic or not, but rather the effect which is the primary purpose for using the ability, especially with so few uses. Only 3 of the 8 shots (Bursting, Grasping, Piercing) have an automatic effect and 2 of those (Bursting, Piercing) only deal damage and function more like blast spells which was not what I was referring to. I think those are generally fine. However, Battle Master has maneuvers like Bait and Switch or Manuevering Attack whose effect is guaranteed (and certainly not a weak effect at that).
My point is that Arcane Archer is more dependent on having a good DC to make use of its abilities than is Battle Master and its save DC is naturally weaker due to being an ability score that will not otherwise have points put into it. If those abilities could be relied upon more, then it could be worth pumping INT to lean more heavily into them. If the number of uses scaled with the INT modifier and perhaps you could add the INT modifier to damage, then I think there could be an interesting INT-heavy Arcane Archer build.
Even more limited than Champion? Or Purple Dragon Knight? Or Eldritch Knight who’s subclass features actively compete with their base class features? Really?
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It's not the Fighter's fault that they only have one good subclass.
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The Champion at least has mostly passive buffs that you don't have to worry about being used up. The Eldritch Knight gives expanded options on what to do for your action and has a larger resource pool to draw from after you've gained a few levels. And the PDK... is just terrible, there's no other way to put it.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd say about half of them are decent to good. Arcane Archer is not one of those though.
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People ignore that the Arcane Archer gets cantrips. I always felt like the fact that you can reskin an attack cantrip like Fire Bolt into a fire arrow was close enough to capturing the "shooting magic arrows fantasy" that the class is built on. You can do it all day, and the damage scales to vaguely mirror Extra Attack. But it doesn't suggest for you to reskin your spells, like some later subclasses do, so maybe that's part of the issue?
I mean yes, technically since it's not a bow attack you don't get to apply any of your magic bow's effects, but there's only one magic bow in any of the books anyway, so it seems as though maybe you're not meant to have one to begin with. The main thing is you can't use Curving Shot with it, and I'll agree that that's a flavor fail as well as a thing that mechanically has an impact.
What? Are you thinking of arcane trickster?
Arcane Archer does get 'a' cantrip but it's a choice between druidcraft or prestidigitation. neat for RP flavor but not very useful in combat.
Most of you are still missing my actual point. The complaint that 2 shots is either a matter of taste (which is fine) or based on a gut feeling rather than objective analysis. The comparison to Warlock was strictly limited to the subjective experience of getting to do your Big Cool Thing X number of times per rest. Bringing up all of Warlock's minor and passive toys outside of Pact Magic misses the point, since Pact Magic is still the biggest, flashiest thing Warlock gets to do push and a player browsing Fighter subclasses is presumably happier with the Fighter's base features than they are with the Warlock's.
Arcane Archer is objectively stronger than Champion (which is highly popular despite being the worst subclass in the game) and has a similar power level to Eldritch Knight and Battle Master.
Arcane Archers don't cap at 2 shots either. I called attention to the 2 shot thing because it's the common complaint and most games don't make it to 11.
Someone looking for Warlock levels of customization wouldn't be looking at Fighter subclasses in the first place.
Yes, the way Arcane Shots function is most comparable to a smite, but there's many differences across both the classes and particular shots/spells that makes a direct comparison in number of uses inappropriate.
Sure, but Paladins don't have a smite equivalent to most Arcane Shots, nor Action Surge, 3+ attacks or Curving Shot (which effectively adds an extra attack), and they have to get into melee range to use most smites. In the few cases where there's an obvious comparison, it costs the Paladin more. e.g. A Paladin can't use Blinding Smite until 9th level and only gets 2 uses of it a day at that point. An Arcane Archer can use Shadow Arrow starting 3rd level and use it as many times as they've got Arcane Shot uses. Paladins can't Action Surge or make as many attacks post-Blinding Smite either. Plus by the time a Paladin has 12 slots Arcane Archers have Ever-Ready Shot and are guaranteed to have at least 1 shot ready each fight.
Likewise most shots have stronger effects than Battle Master maneuvers (Battle Masters make up for it with number of uses), and Arcane Shots definitely have stronger effects and much larger number of initial uses than an Eldritch Knight's 1st level spells.
As I already said, Arcane Shots don't cost you your Attack action, and a Fighter's Attack action also continuously levels up. By 11th level an Arcane Archer has 3 guaranteed attacks and often a 4th thanks to Curving Shot. Shadow Arrow technically gets better the more attacks everyone in the party gets and Enfeebling/Banishing Arrow are roughly equally effective at any level.
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I think both of these claims are highly questionable, though the popularity claim at least can only be supported or countered with anecdotal evidence.
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It’s popular as a dip. Crit fisher builds, and many Paladin/Barbarian PCs enjoy 3 levels in fighter for Action Surge and the Fighting Style, and go Champ for the expanded crit range.
Arcane Archer isn’t bad, it’s just not what people want it to be. If one stops expecting it to make it rain magic arrows, and start expecting it to be the “sure shot” option with a couple magic arrows for those special occasions its fine. They wanted to give us a subclass that was more in-depth than Da Champ, but without the potential analysis paralysis of the Battle Master. Overall it really isn’t bad, it just fails to meet the expectations people have. It suffers from a disconnect more than bad mechanics. (Like the Rune Knight.)
The Cavalier and Samurai are both really solid subclasses all on their own. The Cavalier has a little disconnect in that people think it should be “mountier” but it definitely doesn’t underperform. And I don’t know of any complaints about the Samurai.
Heck, even the Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are pretty good mechanically speaking. They mostly suffer from fact that lots of people (like me) object to the PB mechanics. But as much as I dislike the mechanic for moral reasons, even I have to admit they are functionally pretty good. The Psi Warrior also suffers from the horrid betrayal many of us feel about how Psionics is being handled this edition. But again, that’s more an emotional reaction than any genuine complaint about the efficacy of the subclass. (You really have no idea how much it pains me to defend anything from that book.)
And if one is willing to look at the pseudo-official nature of the Wildemount content, Echo Knight is baller. And as to the wholly unofficial Gunslinger, it’s an excellent replacement for what people want the Arcane Archer to be.
Fighters have a variety of solid choices for subclasses. Even Da Champ isn’t bad. It’s boring as all get out and not quite as good as some of the others, but it isn’t “bad.”
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I'm curious. What do people object over with the psionics in 5E?
I started with 5E, so just legit curious here I have no investment one way or the other, wasn't around to see how psionics were handled in prior editions so I'm not sure what exactly people have an issue with on the 5E front that's different.
It's just flavour in 5E. Not even a school of magic, let alone its own type next to arcane and divine.
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When a warlock runs out of spell slots, all of its pact abilities and invocations and cantrips still make it feel like it is magical character
When an arcane archer runs out of arcane shots, they are a normal fighter who can cast prestidigitation and curve the occasional missed shot.
An arcane archer gets to feel like an arcane character twice per short rest. A warlock feels like an arcane character at all times. That is why the presence of more cantrips and their invocations are so important. They allow the warlock to continuously to use arcane skills and tricks despite being out of their twice/rest cool thing.
The main complaint from people is that because the arcane archer only really has curving shot outside of its arcane shot options, it doesnt get to feel like an arcane character for most of the adventuring day.
You may be right that it comes down to a gut feeling, but when your gut feeling about an Arcane Archer is that you get to do arcane things on a regular basis, then you probably will end up disappointed and not having fun when you find out how limited it actually is.
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In previous editions it had its own wholly unique mechanic. In older editions it was its own entire class that rivaled Wizards without ever “casting spells.” Now it’s a pool of dice not unlike the Battle Master uses and some of what they do is represented with spellcasting. They took what had been the most unique class in D&D and turned it into the Psi Warrior, The Soulknife, and the Farhomless.
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My comment was mostly facetious but Battlemaster is (in my opinion) the best fighter subclass in the game and should have been the core framework that the Fighter class was built on. You are right, there are several good subclass, but none of them are as good as Battlemaster.
I think you are correct in your assessment of the Arcane Archer, the subclass isn't terrible, it just isn't what I want it to be.
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