I'm not a fan of what I've seen for being an Arcane Archer. Does anyone know of any homebrew that seem good. Or alternatively does anyone want to collaborate on making one?
I'm not a fan of what I've seen for being an Arcane Archer. Does anyone know of any homebrew that seem good. Or alternatively does anyone want to collaborate on making one?
On a fundamental level Arcane Archer is a poor portrayal of an archer who is arcane, but the most-often cited reason they're bad is how boring they are, with only 2 arrows per short rest. The most obvious fix is giving them intelligence bonus arrows per short rest, so that's the low-hanging fruit for homebrewing them to be better (don't worry, it won't be overpowered). More powerful than this is proficiency bonus arrows per short rest, which is more powerful because of the strong incentive to multiclass, but you can also provide it without worrying about being overpowered.
If you want to address the power level of the subclass in other ways, my suggestions:
Enfeebling Arrow is the worst arrow of the lot, and inexplicably so. You can upgrade it from only enfeebling weapon attacks to enfeebling all attacks and it still will definitely not be overpowered.
All of the arrows only go up in damage at level 18, which in multiple cases is bizarre, because your goal wasn't damage to begin with. Suggestions to replace the uptick in damage:
Banishing: If you target a creature natively from another plane, such as basically all Celestials, Fiends, Elementals, and Fey when on the Prime Material, the creature is banished to their home plane and left there - it needs its own way back to return to the fight.
Beguiling: You can now choose Frightened instead of or in addition to Charmed.
Enfeebling: This now applies to all damage dealt, even if it wasn't dealt by an attack.
Grasping: This now allows a Strength save; a target that fails is Restrained for the duration.
Seeking: When a target fails the save, you continuously learn its location for 1 minute.
Shadow: The target also loses the ability to sense things more than 5 feet from itself, regardless of the sense used.
Bursting and Piercing keep the uptick in damage, since they're the only arrows actually designed for damage.
The Arcane Archer has a problem that is shared by the Battle Master and the Sorcerer, but for those two it doesn't really feel like a problem. It's basically this: you have a list of options from which you must select a few, and later on you can add more, but it's from the exact same list. So naturally you first select your favorites. And then later, your additional choices are naturally the ones you didn't want as much as you wanted the first ones. The leftovers. Hooray.
Why isn't this an issue for the Sorcerer and its metamagic? Well, two reasons, I think. Firstly, some options are more expensive to use than others, meaning that if you select them early, you can barely use them (rendering them less appealing), but if you select them later you can use them more often. Secondly, they affect spells, and you get different spells at different levels, so naturally the value of your metamagic choices will change, and some may become more appealing in that context.
For the Battle Master and its maneuvers, I really don't know exactly why it works. Maybe because there's so many? Maybe because your equipment and your party will both have a larger impact on the value of your choices than they will for Arcane Archers, and both of those things change over time?
Anyway, Arcane Archers also suffer from the ol' "ranged weapon builds are boring" problem. Compared to a Barbarian, you get way more uses of your quirky special powers per day, so it should be more fun, right? But ranged weapon builds are boring. You're not usually engaging with your HP, with terrain, hazards, vision, or enemy threat ranges. You're just hanging back in the safe zone, and selecting targets is your only real decision each turn. Casters behave similarly but they stay awake by having a huge list of effects to choose from. You can't have that, because your power budget is eaten up by all the Fighter stuff, even if you're not using all of it.
Depends on what your personal issues with the subclass are.
If the issue is running out of shots too fast, you can always make the shots much weaker, but grant yourself more of them. It turns you a bit into a reskinned battlemaster, but at least you get to do more stuff during combat.
The Arcane Archer has a problem that is shared by the Battle Master and the Sorcerer, but for those two it doesn't really feel like a problem. It's basically this: you have a list of options from which you must select a few, and later on you can add more, but it's from the exact same list. So naturally you first select your favorites. And then later, your additional choices are naturally the ones you didn't want as much as you wanted the first ones. The leftovers. Hooray.
Why isn't this an issue for the Sorcerer and its metamagic? Well, two reasons, I think. Firstly, some options are more expensive to use than others, meaning that if you select them early, you can barely use them (rendering them less appealing), but if you select them later you can use them more often. Secondly, they affect spells, and you get different spells at different levels, so naturally the value of your metamagic choices will change, and some may become more appealing in that context.
For the Battle Master and its maneuvers, I really don't know exactly why it works. Maybe because there's so many? Maybe because your equipment and your party will both have a larger impact on the value of your choices than they will for Arcane Archers, and both of those things change over time?
Anyway, Arcane Archers also suffer from the ol' "ranged weapon builds are boring" problem. Compared to a Barbarian, you get way more uses of your quirky special powers per day, so it should be more fun, right? But ranged weapon builds are boring. You're not usually engaging with your HP, with terrain, hazards, vision, or enemy threat ranges. You're just hanging back in the safe zone, and selecting targets is your only real decision each turn. Casters behave similarly but they stay awake by having a huge list of effects to choose from. You can't have that, because your power budget is eaten up by all the Fighter stuff, even if you're not using all of it.
I think the main reason it doesn't affect meta-magic as much is simply because you don't really get to select new options. Sorcerers don't get any new meta-magics until level 10 and 17, which few games will see. So a lot of adventures will only ever see 2 meta-magics with a few long ones eventually getting a third. On top of that, there are glaring balance issues between the options. A lot of the meta-magic options are restricted into only being useful for 1-2 spells in the entire list (Careful Spell) or just being plain bad given the opportunity cost (Distant Spell.and Extended Spell). There are some specific uses of those that are good, but given the limited selections it's extremely costly to pass up on the more generally-applicable options like Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell, and Empowered Spell.
It doesn't affect Battle Master as much because there are just a lot of good options.
Just a note, you mentioned getting more uses of the quirky special power than a Barbarian, but they only get 2 uses and that never increases.
In general, as mentioned, the easiest homebrew is to make Arcane Shot uses at least equal to Proficiency Bonus. However, most of the shots are dependent on a saving throw based on Intelligence while most Battle Master maneuvers automatically take effect when you use them. Not only that, but the Battle Master maneuvers that are based on saving throws use your primary ability score, making those DCs even better compared to Arcane Archers. Because of this, I think it's worthwhile to give Arcane Archer a few more uses of Arcane Shot compared to their Battle Master brethren's maneuvers, to make up for the reduced reliability. I would say giving them a number of Arcane Shots equal to Proficiency Bonus + Intelligence Modifier would be within reason.
Not sure if it is actually any better, but I tried my hand at writing up an alternative version of Arcane Archer stuff while more-or-less keeping the base kit the same. The idea is somewhere between the mechanics of a battlemaster fighter and a four elements monk, in that it gets a pool of dice to fuel their magic arrows and that a majority of the options mimic the effects of pre-existing spells that seemed appropriate. I also played with having the dice have special ways to modify those spells that was different than simply "upcasting" them. Let me know what you think [please forgive the lack of creativity in writing the names for these]
Woven Arrows and Woven Arrow Options
3rd-level Arcane Archer feature, which replaces the Arcane Shot and Arcane Shot Options features
At 3rd level, you learn to unleash special magical effects with some of your shots. When you gain this feature, you learn three Woven Arrow Options of your choice if you meet the prerequisite. Only one option can be used per turn. These options are fueled by special dice called Weave Dice. You have three of these dice, which are d8s, which are expended when you use an option. You regain all expended dice as part of a short or long rest.
At 7th, 10th, and 15th level you gain one additional weave dice and learn two additional Woven Arrow options. Each time you learn a new Woven Arrow Option, you can also replace one option you know with another from the list, provided you meet the prerequisite.
(so, at 15th level you have a pool of 6 weave die to fuel 9 different options, with the die regained on a short rest)
Woven Arrow Options
The following options are available. Some options allow you to cast spells. When cast this way, the casting does not require material components and your spellcasting modifier is Intelligence for determining your spell attack modifier and spell save DC. All spells cast as part of an option are considered to be cast at their base level unless otherwise stated. Spells cast this way do not require somatic or material components. Some require you to expend more than one weave die to use.
Arcane Bow
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die, to a maximum of three, to cast Catapult* using an arrow as the object moved by the spell. Roll the expended weave dice and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once. When cast this way, the spell deals magical piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.
Banishing Arrow (18th level required)
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend two or more weave dice to cast Banishing Smite but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Barrage of Arrows (7th level required)
As an action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die as an action to cast Conjure Barrage. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
Branding Arrow
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Branding Smite but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Burning Arrows (10th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Flame Arrows*. Each time you hit a creature with an arrow affected by the spell, you can roll one of your expended weave dice for determining the amount of fire damage a target takes instead of 1d6. Each weave dice can only be used this way once.
Chaos Arrow
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Chaos Bolt* with the chaotic energy taking the shape of an arrow. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
Dispelling Arrow (10th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or two weave dice to cast Dispel Magic. If an ability check is needed to dispel the magical effect, roll the weave dice and add the value(s) rolled to the total.
Alternatively, when you hit a creature with an attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one weave die to use this option. If the target is concentrating on a spell, it must roll the weave die and subtract the value rolled from its Constitution saving throw against the damage.
Distracting Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Pyrotechnics*. When cast this way, you can target an arrow you fired from your bow no longer than 1 minute prior choosing to either produce fireworks or smoke as normal. If you choose the fireworks option, roll the weave die. All creatures which are required to make a Constitution saving throw against the effect must subtract the value rolled from the total.
Elemental Arrow
When you choose this option, select one of the following damage types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. When you hit a creature with a ranged attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one or two weave die. The attack deals extra damage of the chosen type to the weapon’s damage equal to the value(s) rolled on the weave dice. At 10th level, you can expend up to three weave dice each time you use this feature, adding both dice to the total damage of the attack.
This option can be chosen more than once, each time selecting a different elemental damage type. Only one type of element can be applied to an arrow at a given time.
Enchanting Arrow
You summon forth a spectral arrow and fire it at a creature to try and charm it. As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Charm Person.The target of the spell must roll the weave die and subtract the value rolled from the first saving throw they make to resist the spell’s effect.
Ensnaring Arrows
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Ensnaring Strike but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Guardian Arrows (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Cordon of Arrows, using your ammunition as the material component of the spell. Roll the expended weave die. The maximum number of pieces of ammunition that can be affected by this casting of the spell is increased by half the value rolled on the weave die (rounded down, minimum of 1 extra piece).
Melting Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Melf’s Acid Arrow. Roll the weave die and add the value rolled on the die to the spell attack roll.
Messaging Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave dice to cast Skywrite*. When you cast the spell this way, roll the weave dice. You can increase the maximum number of words you can form by the total value of the expended weave dice.
Seeking Arrow
When you make an attack roll with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one of your weave dice and roll it, adding the value to the attack roll. At 10th level, you can expend up to two of your weave dice when using this option, adding both to the attack roll. If the same value is rolled on both dice, the attack is treated as a critical hit regardless of the value rolled on the d20.
Spell Arrow (10th level required)
When you choose this option, you learn one cantrip from the Wizard spell list. On your turn, when you cast a cantrip which requires you to make a spell attack roll, you can expend one or more weave die to instead make a ranged weapon attack using a longbow or shortbow you are holding, focusing the arcane energy into one of your arrows. The spell’s normal range is replaced with that of your weapon. On a successful hit, the spell’s effect applies as normal in addition to the weapon damage. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
This option can be chosen more than once, each time learning a different cantrip. Additionally, each time you select this option you can replace one cantrip you know with another from the Wizard’s spell list.
Piercing Arrow
When you hit with a ranged attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one or more weave dice. The target begins to bleed and takes additional necrotic damage equal to the total value rolled on the expended dice. The target cannot benefit from healing effects until the end of your next turn.
Tethering Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave dice to cast Earthbind*. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Thorned Arrow
As a bonus action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Hail of Thorns. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Volley of Arrows (18th level required)
As an action on your turn, you can expend two or more weave die to cast Conjure Volley. Roll the expended weave dice and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
*spell referenced found in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything
Nature’s Gift
15th-level Arcane Archer feature, which replaces the Ever-Ready Shot feature
You are able to draw upon the magic that suffuses nature to weave magic into your arrows. If you roll initiative and have no weave dice remaining, you regain two dice.
(What I meant to say was, the Archer gets his shots back on a short rest, while the Barbarian only gets his Rage back on a long rest. In a "properly" paced adventure, the Archer will have more uses per day on average.)
I don't think it's fair to say most of the shots rely on a saving throw. Most of them have an automatic effect. All of them at least deal regular bow damage, and their bonus damage is also automatic like the maneuvers. The DC is an interesting point though.
The Arcane Archer has a problem that is shared by the Battle Master and the Sorcerer, but for those two it doesn't really feel like a problem. It's basically this: you have a list of options from which you must select a few, and later on you can add more, but it's from the exact same list. So naturally you first select your favorites. And then later, your additional choices are naturally the ones you didn't want as much as you wanted the first ones. The leftovers. Hooray.
Why isn't this an issue for the Sorcerer and its metamagic? Well, two reasons, I think. Firstly, some options are more expensive to use than others, meaning that if you select them early, you can barely use them (rendering them less appealing), but if you select them later you can use them more often. Secondly, they affect spells, and you get different spells at different levels, so naturally the value of your metamagic choices will change, and some may become more appealing in that context.
For the Battle Master and its maneuvers, I really don't know exactly why it works. Maybe because there's so many? Maybe because your equipment and your party will both have a larger impact on the value of your choices than they will for Arcane Archers, and both of those things change over time?
Anyway, Arcane Archers also suffer from the ol' "ranged weapon builds are boring" problem. Compared to a Barbarian, you get way more uses of your quirky special powers per day, so it should be more fun, right? But ranged weapon builds are boring. You're not usually engaging with your HP, with terrain, hazards, vision, or enemy threat ranges. You're just hanging back in the safe zone, and selecting targets is your only real decision each turn. Casters behave similarly but they stay awake by having a huge list of effects to choose from. You can't have that, because your power budget is eaten up by all the Fighter stuff, even if you're not using all of it.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Unlocking all of the options wouldn't be terrible for Arcane Archers either, unless the player was prone to decision paralysis. Battlemaster has somewhat transcended this issue through sheer number and quality of options available, but literally every other application of this type of feature progression (looking at you, Four Elements monk*) is notorious for being underwhelming. It's just not good design.
The ranged builds are boring thing is a legit point as well. I had a Samurai archer build that was extremely effective, but combat still got really boring. I ended up retiring him for something more interesting.
*Four Elements is a more complicated situation that is more like warlock Invocations in that better options unlock at higher levels, but it still suffers from heavy choice restriction - from levels 3 to 10 they have only one or two spell effects available at a time
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
I suggested the same thing half an age ago, if memory serves in a ranger thread. Sorcerers give up a lot compared to wizards, and get relatively little in return. The redeeming feature for me is that Cha based skills are more fun to use than Int based ones, but in objective terms that doesn't count. Sorcerers multiclass exceedingly well but given that sorcery points depend on sorcerer levels only that's not necessarily much of a concern, sorlock spell slot conversion shenanigans notwithstanding.
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I'm not a fan of what I've seen for being an Arcane Archer. Does anyone know of any homebrew that seem good. Or alternatively does anyone want to collaborate on making one?
It sounds like you are probably one of the folks who would prefer a battle master with a longbow.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
I suggested the same thing half an age ago, if memory serves in a ranger thread. Sorcerers give up a lot compared to wizards, and get relatively little in return. The redeeming feature for me is that Cha based skills are more fun to use than Int based ones, but in objective terms that doesn't count. Sorcerers multiclass exceedingly well but given that sorcery points depend on sorcerer levels only that's not necessarily much of a concern, sorlock spell slot conversion shenanigans notwithstanding.
How would you deal with the later bonus that is usually "Pick another metamagic"? Woukd you just count it as already obtained, or would you have another bonus instead?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
I suggested the same thing half an age ago, if memory serves in a ranger thread. Sorcerers give up a lot compared to wizards, and get relatively little in return. The redeeming feature for me is that Cha based skills are more fun to use than Int based ones, but in objective terms that doesn't count. Sorcerers multiclass exceedingly well but given that sorcery points depend on sorcerer levels only that's not necessarily much of a concern, sorlock spell slot conversion shenanigans notwithstanding.
How would you deal with the later bonus that is usually "Pick another metamagic"? Woukd you just count it as already obtained, or would you have another bonus instead?
I'd add another bonus, make it more attractive to stick with sorcerer instead of multiclassing out. Maybe half Arcane Recovery (combined level up to 1/4 of your sorcerer level rounded up, no higher than 3rd level slots) at level 10 and full Arcane Recovery at level 17 or something similar. Given that it'd take at least 10 sorcerer levels, I don't think it'd get out of hand with a warlock or paladin multiclass.
I'd add another bonus, make it more attractive to stick with sorcerer instead of multiclassing out. Maybe half Arcane Recovery (combined level up to 1/4 of your sorcerer level rounded up, no higher than 3rd level slots) at level 10 and full Arcane Recovery at level 17 or something similar. Given that it'd take at least 10 sorcerer levels, I don't think it'd get out of hand with a warlock or paladin multiclass.
Half Arcane Recovery would be a huge boost in terms of real sorcery points available, which might be desirable, I don't know. But I'll point out that giving every metamagic at level 3 already makes sticking with Sorcerer enticing in that every level gets you another sorcery point per day, and your homebrew grants more ways to spend those.
Another buff you could give could be to spells known. A level 10 Wizard ordinarily has 15 spells prepared for the day, compared to 11 for a sorcerer (both can be modified by a subclass, both classes have subclasses that don't modify, I think only sorcerer currently has subclasses that do modify). If you convert sorcerers to knowing level + CHA spells, they'll know the same number as Wizards but still won't be able to change spells every day, meaning they'll still be less versatile. Plus, of course, they still won't have access to ritual casting, let alone ritual casting from a spellbook so ritual spells functionally stack with spells prepared.
I'd add another bonus, make it more attractive to stick with sorcerer instead of multiclassing out. Maybe half Arcane Recovery (combined level up to 1/4 of your sorcerer level rounded up, no higher than 3rd level slots) at level 10 and full Arcane Recovery at level 17 or something similar. Given that it'd take at least 10 sorcerer levels, I don't think it'd get out of hand with a warlock or paladin multiclass.
1) Half Arcane Recovery would be a huge boost in terms of real sorcery points available, which might be desirable, I don't know. But I'll point out that giving every metamagic at level 3 already makes sticking with Sorcerer enticing in that every level gets you another sorcery point per day, and your homebrew grants more ways to spend those.
2) Another buff you could give could be to spells known. A level 10 Wizard ordinarily has 15 spells prepared for the day, compared to 11 for a sorcerer (both can be modified by a subclass, both classes have subclasses that don't modify, I think only sorcerer currently has subclasses that do modify). If you convert sorcerers to knowing level + CHA spells, they'll know the same number as Wizards but still won't be able to change spells every day, meaning they'll still be less versatile. Plus, of course, they still won't have access to ritual casting, let alone ritual casting from a spellbook so ritual spells functionally stack with spells prepared.
1) It's a 33% increase in sorcery points, IF the extra spell slot(s) get converted. Maybe my experience deviates from the norm, but I typically see points converted to slots if any conversion is done - not the other way around. Sorcerers give up a potentially much broader and versatile spell selection, ritual magic and arcane recovery in return for metamagic - I think taking arcane recovery out of the equation is still fair. Just spitballing anyway.
2) The restricted number of spells known is kind of the whole point about sorcerers in 5E, so it's something I'd not mess with too much myself. But still, spitball away.
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We have a small sample size here, but if we assume that's irrelevant, then we must conclude that Sorcerers and Battle Masters don't suffer from the "try to get excited about the leftovers" problem because they have more good options than they have option slots. In other words, they can't pick everything they want the first time, so there are still desirable options when they get to pick again from the same list.
If Arcane Archers *do* suffer from this problem, the solution is clear: add more options for Arcane Shots.
On a tangent, I think the way to make ranged fighters exciting is simply to push them into close combat. That allows/forces them to make more use of their various features, such that they don't feel that they only really have one feature (Arcane Shots) and can barely use it per rest. Remember, the Fighter class is pretty cool on its own merits! For examples of how to accomplish this with subclass design instead of just with encounter design, you could give them the ability to somehow make opportunity attacks with their bow, or you could give them a short-range cone effect or something.
You could combine these two solutions into one solution by making a bunch of close-combat-oriented Arcane Shots, and pushing their power level to make them appealing despite their inherent risks. If I was going to try and fix the Arcane Archer, that's how I'd do it.
I'm about to play an arcane archer, and really I don't think the 'later choices aren't as good' option is a big issue. Most of htem seem good to me, though my fighter has a higher int thatn most do so maybe that's why. My only real worry going in is that it's two per short rest, with no scaling to increase it. Not by leveling, not by PB, not by raising int etc. But I like the flavor of the class and while the uses of the arcane shots are limited, I like what they actually do a lot. So looking forward to trying it out even if i need to put some thought into when to use them.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
I imagine they're comparing it to the battlemaster, not the warlock.
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I'm not a fan of what I've seen for being an Arcane Archer. Does anyone know of any homebrew that seem good. Or alternatively does anyone want to collaborate on making one?
Homebrews get rated (somewhat). Just look at what's been published: https://www.dndbeyond.com/homebrew/subclasses?filter-name=archer&filter-author=&filter-author-previous=&filter-author-symbol=&filter-rating=&sort=rating
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On a fundamental level Arcane Archer is a poor portrayal of an archer who is arcane, but the most-often cited reason they're bad is how boring they are, with only 2 arrows per short rest. The most obvious fix is giving them intelligence bonus arrows per short rest, so that's the low-hanging fruit for homebrewing them to be better (don't worry, it won't be overpowered). More powerful than this is proficiency bonus arrows per short rest, which is more powerful because of the strong incentive to multiclass, but you can also provide it without worrying about being overpowered.
If you want to address the power level of the subclass in other ways, my suggestions:
The Arcane Archer has a problem that is shared by the Battle Master and the Sorcerer, but for those two it doesn't really feel like a problem. It's basically this: you have a list of options from which you must select a few, and later on you can add more, but it's from the exact same list. So naturally you first select your favorites. And then later, your additional choices are naturally the ones you didn't want as much as you wanted the first ones. The leftovers. Hooray.
Why isn't this an issue for the Sorcerer and its metamagic? Well, two reasons, I think. Firstly, some options are more expensive to use than others, meaning that if you select them early, you can barely use them (rendering them less appealing), but if you select them later you can use them more often. Secondly, they affect spells, and you get different spells at different levels, so naturally the value of your metamagic choices will change, and some may become more appealing in that context.
For the Battle Master and its maneuvers, I really don't know exactly why it works. Maybe because there's so many? Maybe because your equipment and your party will both have a larger impact on the value of your choices than they will for Arcane Archers, and both of those things change over time?
Anyway, Arcane Archers also suffer from the ol' "ranged weapon builds are boring" problem. Compared to a Barbarian, you get way more uses of your quirky special powers per day, so it should be more fun, right? But ranged weapon builds are boring. You're not usually engaging with your HP, with terrain, hazards, vision, or enemy threat ranges. You're just hanging back in the safe zone, and selecting targets is your only real decision each turn. Casters behave similarly but they stay awake by having a huge list of effects to choose from. You can't have that, because your power budget is eaten up by all the Fighter stuff, even if you're not using all of it.
Depends on what your personal issues with the subclass are.
If the issue is running out of shots too fast, you can always make the shots much weaker, but grant yourself more of them. It turns you a bit into a reskinned battlemaster, but at least you get to do more stuff during combat.
I think the main reason it doesn't affect meta-magic as much is simply because you don't really get to select new options. Sorcerers don't get any new meta-magics until level 10 and 17, which few games will see. So a lot of adventures will only ever see 2 meta-magics with a few long ones eventually getting a third. On top of that, there are glaring balance issues between the options. A lot of the meta-magic options are restricted into only being useful for 1-2 spells in the entire list (Careful Spell) or just being plain bad given the opportunity cost (Distant Spell.and Extended Spell). There are some specific uses of those that are good, but given the limited selections it's extremely costly to pass up on the more generally-applicable options like Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell, and Empowered Spell.
It doesn't affect Battle Master as much because there are just a lot of good options.
Just a note, you mentioned getting more uses of the quirky special power than a Barbarian, but they only get 2 uses and that never increases.
In general, as mentioned, the easiest homebrew is to make Arcane Shot uses at least equal to Proficiency Bonus. However, most of the shots are dependent on a saving throw based on Intelligence while most Battle Master maneuvers automatically take effect when you use them. Not only that, but the Battle Master maneuvers that are based on saving throws use your primary ability score, making those DCs even better compared to Arcane Archers. Because of this, I think it's worthwhile to give Arcane Archer a few more uses of Arcane Shot compared to their Battle Master brethren's maneuvers, to make up for the reduced reliability. I would say giving them a number of Arcane Shots equal to Proficiency Bonus + Intelligence Modifier would be within reason.
Not sure if it is actually any better, but I tried my hand at writing up an alternative version of Arcane Archer stuff while more-or-less keeping the base kit the same. The idea is somewhere between the mechanics of a battlemaster fighter and a four elements monk, in that it gets a pool of dice to fuel their magic arrows and that a majority of the options mimic the effects of pre-existing spells that seemed appropriate. I also played with having the dice have special ways to modify those spells that was different than simply "upcasting" them. Let me know what you think [please forgive the lack of creativity in writing the names for these]
Woven Arrows and Woven Arrow Options
3rd-level Arcane Archer feature, which replaces the Arcane Shot and Arcane Shot Options features
At 3rd level, you learn to unleash special magical effects with some of your shots. When you gain this feature, you learn three Woven Arrow Options of your choice if you meet the prerequisite. Only one option can be used per turn. These options are fueled by special dice called Weave Dice. You have three of these dice, which are d8s, which are expended when you use an option. You regain all expended dice as part of a short or long rest.
At 7th, 10th, and 15th level you gain one additional weave dice and learn two additional Woven Arrow options. Each time you learn a new Woven Arrow Option, you can also replace one option you know with another from the list, provided you meet the prerequisite.
(so, at 15th level you have a pool of 6 weave die to fuel 9 different options, with the die regained on a short rest)
Woven Arrow Options
The following options are available. Some options allow you to cast spells. When cast this way, the casting does not require material components and your spellcasting modifier is Intelligence for determining your spell attack modifier and spell save DC. All spells cast as part of an option are considered to be cast at their base level unless otherwise stated. Spells cast this way do not require somatic or material components. Some require you to expend more than one weave die to use.
Arcane Bow
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die, to a maximum of three, to cast Catapult* using an arrow as the object moved by the spell. Roll the expended weave dice and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once. When cast this way, the spell deals magical piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.
Banishing Arrow (18th level required)
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend two or more weave dice to cast Banishing Smite but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Barrage of Arrows (7th level required)
As an action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die as an action to cast Conjure Barrage. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
Branding Arrow
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Branding Smite but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Burning Arrows (10th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Flame Arrows*. Each time you hit a creature with an arrow affected by the spell, you can roll one of your expended weave dice for determining the amount of fire damage a target takes instead of 1d6. Each weave dice can only be used this way once.
Chaos Arrow
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Chaos Bolt* with the chaotic energy taking the shape of an arrow. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
Dispelling Arrow (10th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or two weave dice to cast Dispel Magic. If an ability check is needed to dispel the magical effect, roll the weave dice and add the value(s) rolled to the total.
Alternatively, when you hit a creature with an attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one weave die to use this option. If the target is concentrating on a spell, it must roll the weave die and subtract the value rolled from its Constitution saving throw against the damage.
Distracting Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Pyrotechnics*. When cast this way, you can target an arrow you fired from your bow no longer than 1 minute prior choosing to either produce fireworks or smoke as normal. If you choose the fireworks option, roll the weave die. All creatures which are required to make a Constitution saving throw against the effect must subtract the value rolled from the total.
Elemental Arrow
When you choose this option, select one of the following damage types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. When you hit a creature with a ranged attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one or two weave die. The attack deals extra damage of the chosen type to the weapon’s damage equal to the value(s) rolled on the weave dice. At 10th level, you can expend up to three weave dice each time you use this feature, adding both dice to the total damage of the attack.
This option can be chosen more than once, each time selecting a different elemental damage type. Only one type of element can be applied to an arrow at a given time.
Enchanting Arrow
You summon forth a spectral arrow and fire it at a creature to try and charm it. As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Charm Person.The target of the spell must roll the weave die and subtract the value rolled from the first saving throw they make to resist the spell’s effect.
Ensnaring Arrows
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Ensnaring Strike but the spell effect must be applied to a weapon attack made with a longbow or shortbow. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Guardian Arrows (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one weave die to cast Cordon of Arrows, using your ammunition as the material component of the spell. Roll the expended weave die. The maximum number of pieces of ammunition that can be affected by this casting of the spell is increased by half the value rolled on the weave die (rounded down, minimum of 1 extra piece).
Melting Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Melf’s Acid Arrow. Roll the weave die and add the value rolled on the die to the spell attack roll.
Messaging Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave dice to cast Skywrite*. When you cast the spell this way, roll the weave dice. You can increase the maximum number of words you can form by the total value of the expended weave dice.
Seeking Arrow
When you make an attack roll with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one of your weave dice and roll it, adding the value to the attack roll. At 10th level, you can expend up to two of your weave dice when using this option, adding both to the attack roll. If the same value is rolled on both dice, the attack is treated as a critical hit regardless of the value rolled on the d20.
Spell Arrow (10th level required)
When you choose this option, you learn one cantrip from the Wizard spell list. On your turn, when you cast a cantrip which requires you to make a spell attack roll, you can expend one or more weave die to instead make a ranged weapon attack using a longbow or shortbow you are holding, focusing the arcane energy into one of your arrows. The spell’s normal range is replaced with that of your weapon. On a successful hit, the spell’s effect applies as normal in addition to the weapon damage. Roll the expended weave die and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
This option can be chosen more than once, each time learning a different cantrip. Additionally, each time you select this option you can replace one cantrip you know with another from the Wizard’s spell list.
Piercing Arrow
When you hit with a ranged attack made with a longbow or shortbow, you can expend one or more weave dice. The target begins to bleed and takes additional necrotic damage equal to the total value rolled on the expended dice. The target cannot benefit from healing effects until the end of your next turn.
Tethering Arrow (7th level required)
As an action, you can expend one or more weave dice to cast Earthbind*. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Thorned Arrow
As a bonus action, you can expend one or more weave die to cast Hail of Thorns. Each time you are required to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on the spell, roll one of the expended weave dice and add the rolled value to your total. After you have used all of the expended weave dice once, you cannot use this benefit again.
Volley of Arrows (18th level required)
As an action on your turn, you can expend two or more weave die to cast Conjure Volley. Roll the expended weave dice and the damage die for the spell separately. You can choose to replace one of the values rolled on the damage die for the spell with one of the values rolled on the weave die. Each weave dice can only replace one of the damage dice this way once.
*spell referenced found in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything
Nature’s Gift
15th-level Arcane Archer feature, which replaces the Ever-Ready Shot feature
You are able to draw upon the magic that suffuses nature to weave magic into your arrows. If you roll initiative and have no weave dice remaining, you regain two dice.
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(What I meant to say was, the Archer gets his shots back on a short rest, while the Barbarian only gets his Rage back on a long rest. In a "properly" paced adventure, the Archer will have more uses per day on average.)
I don't think it's fair to say most of the shots rely on a saving throw. Most of them have an automatic effect. All of them at least deal regular bow damage, and their bonus damage is also automatic like the maneuvers. The DC is an interesting point though.
Honestly, I think it's a huge problem for Sorcerer as well. It's widely considered one of the weakest classes and I think this poor design is one of the primary reasons.
It wouldn't overpower Sorcerers at all to get every single metamagic option at level 2. You'd actually see the more situational ones in play and the class would start to approach the flexibility it's actually supposed to have. Then grant a couple other decent, class-defining features at higher levels instead of "you get one metamagic from the rejects of the last time you chose." One of the reasons Aberrant Mind is so good is that it basically gives you Subtle Spell as a feature so that you don't have to waste a precious choice on an option that is extremely evocative but nowhere near as strong or widely applicable as Twinned/Quickened.
Unlocking all of the options wouldn't be terrible for Arcane Archers either, unless the player was prone to decision paralysis. Battlemaster has somewhat transcended this issue through sheer number and quality of options available, but literally every other application of this type of feature progression (looking at you, Four Elements monk*) is notorious for being underwhelming. It's just not good design.
The ranged builds are boring thing is a legit point as well. I had a Samurai archer build that was extremely effective, but combat still got really boring. I ended up retiring him for something more interesting.
*Four Elements is a more complicated situation that is more like warlock Invocations in that better options unlock at higher levels, but it still suffers from heavy choice restriction - from levels 3 to 10 they have only one or two spell effects available at a time
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Sorry for the tangent, but this really perked my interest. I'm about to play a sorceror (this would be my second game ever, I'm currently a wizard), and looking at the build the PHB and this was one of my concerns, it looked as if it was quite limited in what it could do in both the points aspect (at least early on) and the options aspect. It seemed more natural to allow all the choices but have the point cost limit how much you can do so you don't become too OP.
What are other people's takes on this? I'm hesitant to modify PHB rules without experience, but the sorceror just seems like less versatile wizard.
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I suggested the same thing half an age ago, if memory serves in a ranger thread. Sorcerers give up a lot compared to wizards, and get relatively little in return. The redeeming feature for me is that Cha based skills are more fun to use than Int based ones, but in objective terms that doesn't count. Sorcerers multiclass exceedingly well but given that sorcery points depend on sorcerer levels only that's not necessarily much of a concern, sorlock spell slot conversion shenanigans notwithstanding.
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It sounds like you are probably one of the folks who would prefer a battle master with a longbow.
You may find this thread interesting: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/112010-arcane-archer-homebrew-replacement-features)
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How would you deal with the later bonus that is usually "Pick another metamagic"? Woukd you just count it as already obtained, or would you have another bonus instead?
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I'd add another bonus, make it more attractive to stick with sorcerer instead of multiclassing out. Maybe half Arcane Recovery (combined level up to 1/4 of your sorcerer level rounded up, no higher than 3rd level slots) at level 10 and full Arcane Recovery at level 17 or something similar. Given that it'd take at least 10 sorcerer levels, I don't think it'd get out of hand with a warlock or paladin multiclass.
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Half Arcane Recovery would be a huge boost in terms of real sorcery points available, which might be desirable, I don't know. But I'll point out that giving every metamagic at level 3 already makes sticking with Sorcerer enticing in that every level gets you another sorcery point per day, and your homebrew grants more ways to spend those.
Another buff you could give could be to spells known. A level 10 Wizard ordinarily has 15 spells prepared for the day, compared to 11 for a sorcerer (both can be modified by a subclass, both classes have subclasses that don't modify, I think only sorcerer currently has subclasses that do modify). If you convert sorcerers to knowing level + CHA spells, they'll know the same number as Wizards but still won't be able to change spells every day, meaning they'll still be less versatile. Plus, of course, they still won't have access to ritual casting, let alone ritual casting from a spellbook so ritual spells functionally stack with spells prepared.
1) It's a 33% increase in sorcery points, IF the extra spell slot(s) get converted. Maybe my experience deviates from the norm, but I typically see points converted to slots if any conversion is done - not the other way around. Sorcerers give up a potentially much broader and versatile spell selection, ritual magic and arcane recovery in return for metamagic - I think taking arcane recovery out of the equation is still fair. Just spitballing anyway.
2) The restricted number of spells known is kind of the whole point about sorcerers in 5E, so it's something I'd not mess with too much myself. But still, spitball away.
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We have a small sample size here, but if we assume that's irrelevant, then we must conclude that Sorcerers and Battle Masters don't suffer from the "try to get excited about the leftovers" problem because they have more good options than they have option slots. In other words, they can't pick everything they want the first time, so there are still desirable options when they get to pick again from the same list.
If Arcane Archers *do* suffer from this problem, the solution is clear: add more options for Arcane Shots.
On a tangent, I think the way to make ranged fighters exciting is simply to push them into close combat. That allows/forces them to make more use of their various features, such that they don't feel that they only really have one feature (Arcane Shots) and can barely use it per rest. Remember, the Fighter class is pretty cool on its own merits! For examples of how to accomplish this with subclass design instead of just with encounter design, you could give them the ability to somehow make opportunity attacks with their bow, or you could give them a short-range cone effect or something.
You could combine these two solutions into one solution by making a bunch of close-combat-oriented Arcane Shots, and pushing their power level to make them appealing despite their inherent risks. If I was going to try and fix the Arcane Archer, that's how I'd do it.
I'm about to play an arcane archer, and really I don't think the 'later choices aren't as good' option is a big issue. Most of htem seem good to me, though my fighter has a higher int thatn most do so maybe that's why. My only real worry going in is that it's two per short rest, with no scaling to increase it. Not by leveling, not by PB, not by raising int etc. But I like the flavor of the class and while the uses of the arcane shots are limited, I like what they actually do a lot. So looking forward to trying it out even if i need to put some thought into when to use them.
I've always thought it's a bit odd that people say 2 shots per short rest is too little considering that's the exact same number of spell slots a Warlock gets from levels 2 to 10 (and arcane shots don't take up your whole action like casting a spell does.)
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I imagine they're comparing it to the battlemaster, not the warlock.