Again, I would like to ask what is your goal with using the sprite familiar that you want to buff it up. If you want to use it in combat, other than using the help action, you will probably be disappointed.
Wouldn’t using a different familiar, Imp or Quasit, be better use in combat if that’s the way you want to go. And since the familiar is actually a spirit that takes the form of the sprite it might be easier to get a DM to use Imp stats but make it look like a sprite, than to get the DM to buff or give magic items to it.
Also, familiars were never meant to scale with a character. A 20th level wizard could have an owl familiar with 1 HP and does 1 damage (if they could get it to attack, which they can’t). Pact of the Chain isn’t much different other than they get access to better familiars and they can attack with them. But other than that they don’t scale either
If they r not meant to scale then y allow it in the rules to let them use magic items, that's allows any familiar chainlock or not, to scale with said player
Going Pact of the Chain opens up some eldritch invocations which are ONLY available to pact of the chain warlocks. These tend to improve your bond with the familiar in specific ways.
Well I am aware of that but the only invocation really worth it is investment of the chain master, all the others make for either good rp or useful at higher levels, I'm more upset on how they just trashed the sprite in terms of the other familiars
If they r not meant to scale then y allow it in the rules to let them use magic items, that's allows any familiar chainlock or not, to scale with said player
Well giving them magic items is not the same as scaling. And it seems you want more out of your familiar then they were designed for. And who knows, maybe they designed sprites, imps, etc before they made them available to chain, so I hardly would hardly say they “trashed” them
If they r not meant to scale then y allow it in the rules to let them use magic items, that's allows any familiar chainlock or not, to scale with said player
Well giving them magic items is not the same as scaling. And it seems you want more out of your familiar then they were designed for. And who knows, maybe they designed sprites, imps, etc before they made them available to chain, so I hardly would hardly say they “trashed” them
Well they should be future proofing their content, instead of making something that suffers from not thinking ahead, and of course I want more then what they were designed for, bc they should be at this level where like every other warlock familiar option gets the ability scores to their attack and dmg, and even worse this is a sprite who uses actual weapons that's a 2ft 6 creature, and I'm supposed to just have suspension of belief that a flying toddler who carrying a ft long or longer sword does as much dmg as pin does?
Well they should be future proofing their content, instead of making something that suffers from not thinking ahead, and of course I want more then what they were designed for, bc they should be at this level where like every other warlock familiar option gets the ability scores to their attack and dmg, and even worse this is a sprite who uses actual weapons that's a 2ft 6 creature, and I'm supposed to just have suspension of belief that a flying toddler who carrying a ft long or longer sword does as much dmg as pin does?
How closely have you looked at their stats? Because if the other familiars followed PC rules they should be using Strength for their melee weapon attacks, but none of them do. The simple fact is creatures don't have to follow PC rules for their attacks. Many of them have unusual stats designed to fit their aesthetic. If you read the description for Sprites you'll see that they're not killers, and their attacks reflect this:
They are aggressive and hardy warriors, taking severe measures to ward strangers away from their homes. Interlopers that come too close have their moral character judged, then are put to sleep or frightened off.
Where did you get the 2½ foot size from? The only reference I have is from DMG Chapter 8 where they talk about creature sizes and squares. The illustration includes a tiny winged creature which has a body roughly 1 foot tall. I think you're mixing up the size of the creature with the space that it effectively controls.
There is more to D&D than damage numbers and the Sprite has some great features. I personally think Sprites are awesome either on their own or as a familiar. If you dislike them so much, I suggest you pick something else rather than try to force them into being something they're not.
If they r not meant to scale then y allow it in the rules to let them use magic items, that's allows any familiar chainlock or not, to scale with said player
You are also confusing a lack of a rule saying 'no' with a deliberate decision to say 'yes.' Again, a DM controls what magic items are available at all, so a DM could say 'no' simply by not letting you have such a gauntlet.
And I'd be fine with that as that item r just to help it in combat, I have other magic items I want to use for it outside of combat
Well they should be future proofing their content, instead of making something that suffers from not thinking ahead, and of course I want more then what they were designed for, bc they should be at this level where like every other warlock familiar option gets the ability scores to their attack and dmg, and even worse this is a sprite who uses actual weapons that's a 2ft 6 creature, and I'm supposed to just have suspension of belief that a flying toddler who carrying a ft long or longer sword does as much dmg as pin does?
How closely have you looked at their stats? Because if the other familiars followed PC rules they should be using Strength for their melee weapon attacks, but none of them do. The simple fact is creatures don't have to follow PC rules for their attacks. Many of them have unusual stats designed to fit their aesthetic. If you read the description for Sprites you'll see that they're not killers, and their attacks reflect this:
They are aggressive and hardy warriors, taking severe measures to ward strangers away from their homes. Interlopers that come too close have their moral character judged, then are put to sleep or frightened off.
Where did you get the 2½ foot size from? The only reference I have is from DMG Chapter 8 where they talk about creature sizes and squares. The illustration includes a tiny winged creature which has a body roughly 1 foot tall. I think you're mixing up the size of the creature with the space that it effectively controls.
There is more to D&D than damage numbers and the Sprite has some great features. I personally think Sprites are awesome either on their own or as a familiar. If you dislike them so much, I suggest you pick something else rather than try to force them into being something they're not.
I don't dislike the sprite I like it very much, as it's one of my favorite familiars and creature in the game, I more have a gripe with with the creators, not making sense with its monsters and such.
And I got it's height from the forgotten realm wiki which states they r 2 ft tall so my bad for adding 6in to their height
As others in the thread have mentioned, not all familiars are aimed at being useful in combat however even thinking of it like that you're totally ignoring 2 pertinent aspects of the Sprites kit:
- Poison in their RANGED attack that with Investment of the Chain Master has a DC matching your Spell Save and should they get 5 or less they get knocked unconscious (aka easier to hit/more useful than the similar attacks of the Pseudodragon etc) - Has one of (if not THE) highest AC of the familiar creatures, 2 AC points higher than Quasit/Pseudodragon/Imp
Combine with these that it also gets Invisibility (so that's advantage on attacks) and frankly I don't even know what 'trashing' of the Sprite that you're on about even is, you seem obsessed with its low damage as if a high damage yield is the only thing that would make it useful in combat. It sounds like you either want it to be ostensibly the significantly strongest option or you're trying to make out like its trash so you can try and bend what could be allowed so you can stack your Sprite full of magic items and make it a sidekick.
Your statement about a toddler with a knife running round causing 1 damage also doesn't make sense to me because against trained combatants/armoured creatures/giant monsters all prepared for combat the equivalent to a 'toddler running round with a knife' absolutely should be doing around 1 damage.
I don't dislike the sprite I like it very much, as it's one of my favorite familiars and creature in the game, I more have a gripe with with the creators, not making sense with its monsters and such.
And I got it's height from the forgotten realm wiki which states they r 2 ft tall so my bad for adding 6in to their height
Okay, that I can sort of understand. Sometimes I think I would like a system that works the same for both players and monsters but it is difficult to balance such wildly varying creature sizes, and even harder when you factor in unique abilities. Also levelling up every creature would be a right pain, if they were forced to follow player rules... And of course the rules are just there to provide a framework for telling stories, so it makes sense to me that creatures like Sprites don't do much damage, it's part of their story.
I've seen that wiki but suspect the height info is carried over from earlier editions, so I wouldn't take it as canon. I picture Sprites as being similar in size to their fey cousins the Pixies, which are described as barely a foot tall. If you treat them as such, then their "longsword" would have a 6 inch blade at most, so the 1 damage makes a bit more sense.
What Sinnerman said. You don't choose a sprite for dealing damage and you definitely don't throw it into melee with its sword. You let it shoot things from range and hope those status effects stick. Do you know how rare it is to be able to apply the poisoned condition every turn? And have a chance at unconscious? And both of those statuses last 1 minute with no concentration? This is such an effective use of a bonus action that I intentionally don't use it every turn because it's too good.
These guys are incredibly effective at control. They will never be damage dealers, but they are extremely valuable in combat. They don't need any kind of boost.
Kinda feel like your expecting more mileage out of a level 3 feature than it deserves. And that your also only looking for combat uses rather than social/OOC stuff.
sprite is a very good scout, and while they won’t ever top the charts of damage. The poison can be nasty if they get on the casters, or you can just use invisible help action for free advantage every turn.
Okay, that I can sort of understand. Sometimes I think I would like a system that works the same for both players and monsters but it is difficult to balance such wildly varying creature sizes, and even harder when you factor in unique abilities. Also levelling up every creature would be a right pain, if they were forced to follow player rules... And of course the rules are just there to provide a framework for telling stories, so it makes sense to me that creatures like Sprites don't do much damage, it's part of their story.
This is what happened in 3rd edition (and Pathfinder), and it was a right pain for the DM.
What Sinnerman said. You don't choose a sprite for dealing damage and you definitely don't throw it into melee with its sword. You let it shoot things from range and hope those status effects stick. Do you know how rare it is to be able to apply the poisoned condition every turn? And have a chance at unconscious? And both of those statuses last 1 minute with no concentration? This is such an effective use of a bonus action that I intentionally don't use it every turn because it's too good.
These guys are incredibly effective at control. They will never be damage dealers, but they are extremely valuable in combat. They don't need any kind of boost.
That is something else that is worthy of mention. Status effects scale pretty well with level. Often better than damage does.
But that status effect is only effective at higher level if the spellcaster dc save is high enough
I mean if your caster at higher levels has a bad save DC that is a problem with virtually the entire kit at that point, because that will also be a bad spell attack roll as well.
I mean if your caster at higher levels has a bad save DC that is a problem with virtually the entire kit at that point, because that will also be a bad spell attack roll as well.
I wonder how a player leveling up and using his or her ASI's to boost their casting stat will have a bad save DC oh wait I see they didn't raise their casting stat that's the players issue not the class issue.
Pact of the Chain is already incredibly powerful, especially when one considers the Invocations that buff it. Remember, anytime you cast the spell you can switch your familiar’s form. When the Sprite would be most useful, summon it as a Sprite, when a Pseudodragon, Imp, or Quasit would be more beneficial, summon one of those instead. They each have different traits that are useful under various circumstances.
Sprites have a higher Intelligence score than many PCs, and an Int well in excess of what is required for Mount to qualify as “Intelligent.” (And considering the commoner is supposed to represent the “average person,” that would mean thenSprite is smarter than most IRL people you have ever met.) Sounds “sentient” to me.
I don’t see why one couldn’t use downtime to train their familiar instead of themselves. But that’s a call for each DM to make for their own tables.
There are no weapons in D&D that have a Strength requirement. (Weapons with the heavy property have a Size requirement, but a longsword lacks that property.) The Sprite just uses a little, teeny tiny Longsword.
Because their statblock says they do 1 damage.
Because Warlocks aren’t really very “caster,” they’re more “magic archers” with spells enough to be dangerous.
I don’t believe weapon proficiencies can be picked up with downtime training, no.
As I stated earlier, that’s up to your DM.
Because if one’s goal is optimization, the only other Boon worth considering is Pact of the Tome (unless one is a Hexblade), and if one’s goal is flavor enhancement, the only other one worth considering is Pact of the Tome (and Talisman if one has Tasha’s).The Pact of the Blade is all but a trap for anyone but Hexblades. It looks super awesome!… until it gets compared to Eldritch Blast + Invocations and then it really underperforms in the hands of anyone without the Hex Warrior feature. The Pact of the Talisman looks super cool too, and it is cool… until one realizes they could take guidance as one of their three cantrips with Tomepact, resistance as another, and that whoever is wearing the Talisman can use up all of the teleports and the Warlock cannot stop them.The Rebuke is cool though, but unless there is also a Sorcerer in the party, the “squishiest” PC would be the Warlock (Wizards can take care of themselves), so that reduces the usefulness of the Talisman.
Yes, the find familiar spell, and if applicable the Pact of the Chain description.
Well, for one thing, 1 damage is not pointless, it’s the exact minimum damage required to dose a creature with any Injury type poison, which is why people take the blowgun. For another thing, remember in the beginning when I mentioned changing your familiar’s form to whichever most aptly fits a particular situation? If you want your li’l buddy to help in combat then the Quasit would be a better fit than the Sprite. Heck, any of the other three are better in combat than the Sprite for that matter. The Sprite however, is a better spy if the warlock needs their familiar to read creatures, the Pseudodragon is a better scout due to its flying speed, and the Imp is a better “all ‘rounder,” or is better if magical darkness needs to be subverted.
The Sprite’s height is irrelevant, it’s “Size” is Tiny. Many Tiny creatures deal only a single damage, like these for example: bat, cat, crab, hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, fish (quipper), rat, raven, or weasel.
You think the issue you’re grappling with is that they didn’t do a good job designing the feature because a Warlock couldn’t take it and use a Sprite familiar the way you want to. I think the issue you’re actually grappling with (and don’t realize it) is that you want the Sprite familiar to be good at things it was not designed to be good at, and are dismissive of the things it’s actually good at. That’s like saying a hammer was designed poorly because it’s useless as a screwdriver. Just use a screwdriver instead, and save the hammer for when it would be more appropriate. To bring that metaphor home for you: Ask your DM if you could take the Imp familiar instead and simply headcanon it as a Sprite familiar. Wouldn’t that be simpler?
The Pact of the Chain isn’t good because you can pick one of the four additional options and it will be good at everything. It’s good because it’s an power-upgrade to find familiar. The reason that spell is good in the first place is it gives the caster a toolbox full of tools. But Chainpact gets to add four powertools to their toolbox that nobody else has. It doesn’t give you one of the four special choices, it gives you all of them. But an impact drill is not a good circular saw, and a circular saw is not a good angle grinder, and an angle grinder is not a good nail gun, and a nail gun is not a good impact drill. But that’s okay because you have one of each and everyone else has to make do with hand tools.
That’s why, depending on who you ask, chainpact and tomepact are the two top dogs (unless you’re a Hexblade). Those two add the most options to a Warlock. And as the saying goes: “options win battles.”
PS- The PotC scales very well, and it does it the same way the rest of the Pact Boons do, through Eldritch Invocations.
Gift of the Ever-Living Ones makes chainpact likely the only PCs in the game its worth actually healing withhealing resources instead of saving them to play yo-yo with later.
The new chainpact Invocation in Tasha’s, Investment of the Chain Master basically takes the chainpact’s four power tools, and the set of hand tools from the spell, and gives them all a Tim Tailor tuneup to overtuned. (Overtuned is officially 12.5 on the tune-omiter, Tailor’s stuff always blew up because he rounded up to 13, but in D&D you round down so these are safe.)
Chains of Carceri upgrades the Warlock instead of the familiar. The one thing Warlocks never have enough of is Pact Magic slots. With this invocation the Warlock can cast hold monster for free and “at will,” like a cantrip. The other invocations that effectively make a leveled spell as easy to sling as a cantrip do it to 1st-level spells. Hold monster is a 5th-level spell, and a 15th level chainpact can cast it as easily as frostbite, but only a select list of creature types and uses/creature/long rest, but also with no components. If your in a campaign with lots of Celestials, Fiends, or Elementals (which is very likely at 15th-level), then this is amazeballs, and if not then there are too many good options to take instead.
And my personal favorite, Voice of the Chain Master. The Wizard with its normal familiar can only perceive through their familiar up to 100 ft., and then the signal is lost pretty much entirely. The regular chainpact has the same limitation, but instead of a dial tone and that’s all she wrote at least their familiars can explain stuff to them and may even have hands to draw a map. With this upgrade your familiar could be on another planet on the other side of the known universe and you would still get excellent reception. And not just a one-way signal either, but actual two-way communication, you can even talk to someone there in your own voice like an animated Disney character (or if you prefer like a howler from Ms. Weasley).
Again, I would like to ask what is your goal with using the sprite familiar that you want to buff it up. If you want to use it in combat, other than using the help action, you will probably be disappointed.
Wouldn’t using a different familiar, Imp or Quasit, be better use in combat if that’s the way you want to go. And since the familiar is actually a spirit that takes the form of the sprite it might be easier to get a DM to use Imp stats but make it look like a sprite, than to get the DM to buff or give magic items to it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
So ur saying to me what is the equivalent of a toddler running around with blade a foot long is just going to do one damage? One damage!?!
Also, familiars were never meant to scale with a character. A 20th level wizard could have an owl familiar with 1 HP and does 1 damage (if they could get it to attack, which they can’t). Pact of the Chain isn’t much different other than they get access to better familiars and they can attack with them. But other than that they don’t scale either
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If they r not meant to scale then y allow it in the rules to let them use magic items, that's allows any familiar chainlock or not, to scale with said player
Going Pact of the Chain opens up some eldritch invocations which are ONLY available to pact of the chain warlocks. These tend to improve your bond with the familiar in specific ways.
Well I am aware of that but the only invocation really worth it is investment of the chain master, all the others make for either good rp or useful at higher levels, I'm more upset on how they just trashed the sprite in terms of the other familiars
Well giving them magic items is not the same as scaling. And it seems you want more out of your familiar then they were designed for. And who knows, maybe they designed sprites, imps, etc before they made them available to chain, so I hardly would hardly say they “trashed” them
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Well they should be future proofing their content, instead of making something that suffers from not thinking ahead, and of course I want more then what they were designed for, bc they should be at this level where like every other warlock familiar option gets the ability scores to their attack and dmg, and even worse this is a sprite who uses actual weapons that's a 2ft 6 creature, and I'm supposed to just have suspension of belief that a flying toddler who carrying a ft long or longer sword does as much dmg as pin does?
How closely have you looked at their stats? Because if the other familiars followed PC rules they should be using Strength for their melee weapon attacks, but none of them do. The simple fact is creatures don't have to follow PC rules for their attacks. Many of them have unusual stats designed to fit their aesthetic. If you read the description for Sprites you'll see that they're not killers, and their attacks reflect this:
Where did you get the 2½ foot size from? The only reference I have is from DMG Chapter 8 where they talk about creature sizes and squares. The illustration includes a tiny winged creature which has a body roughly 1 foot tall. I think you're mixing up the size of the creature with the space that it effectively controls.
There is more to D&D than damage numbers and the Sprite has some great features. I personally think Sprites are awesome either on their own or as a familiar. If you dislike them so much, I suggest you pick something else rather than try to force them into being something they're not.
And I'd be fine with that as that item r just to help it in combat, I have other magic items I want to use for it outside of combat
I don't dislike the sprite I like it very much, as it's one of my favorite familiars and creature in the game, I more have a gripe with with the creators, not making sense with its monsters and such.
And I got it's height from the forgotten realm wiki which states they r 2 ft tall so my bad for adding 6in to their height
As others in the thread have mentioned, not all familiars are aimed at being useful in combat however even thinking of it like that you're totally ignoring 2 pertinent aspects of the Sprites kit:
- Poison in their RANGED attack that with Investment of the Chain Master has a DC matching your Spell Save and should they get 5 or less they get knocked unconscious (aka easier to hit/more useful than the similar attacks of the Pseudodragon etc)
- Has one of (if not THE) highest AC of the familiar creatures, 2 AC points higher than Quasit/Pseudodragon/Imp
Combine with these that it also gets Invisibility (so that's advantage on attacks) and frankly I don't even know what 'trashing' of the Sprite that you're on about even is, you seem obsessed with its low damage as if a high damage yield is the only thing that would make it useful in combat. It sounds like you either want it to be ostensibly the significantly strongest option or you're trying to make out like its trash so you can try and bend what could be allowed so you can stack your Sprite full of magic items and make it a sidekick.
Your statement about a toddler with a knife running round causing 1 damage also doesn't make sense to me because against trained combatants/armoured creatures/giant monsters all prepared for combat the equivalent to a 'toddler running round with a knife' absolutely should be doing around 1 damage.
Okay, that I can sort of understand. Sometimes I think I would like a system that works the same for both players and monsters but it is difficult to balance such wildly varying creature sizes, and even harder when you factor in unique abilities. Also levelling up every creature would be a right pain, if they were forced to follow player rules... And of course the rules are just there to provide a framework for telling stories, so it makes sense to me that creatures like Sprites don't do much damage, it's part of their story.
I've seen that wiki but suspect the height info is carried over from earlier editions, so I wouldn't take it as canon. I picture Sprites as being similar in size to their fey cousins the Pixies, which are described as barely a foot tall. If you treat them as such, then their "longsword" would have a 6 inch blade at most, so the 1 damage makes a bit more sense.
Best of luck with your Sprite.
What Sinnerman said. You don't choose a sprite for dealing damage and you definitely don't throw it into melee with its sword. You let it shoot things from range and hope those status effects stick. Do you know how rare it is to be able to apply the poisoned condition every turn? And have a chance at unconscious? And both of those statuses last 1 minute with no concentration? This is such an effective use of a bonus action that I intentionally don't use it every turn because it's too good.
These guys are incredibly effective at control. They will never be damage dealers, but they are extremely valuable in combat. They don't need any kind of boost.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Kinda feel like your expecting more mileage out of a level 3 feature than it deserves. And that your also only looking for combat uses rather than social/OOC stuff.
sprite is a very good scout, and while they won’t ever top the charts of damage. The poison can be nasty if they get on the casters, or you can just use invisible help action for free advantage every turn.
This is what happened in 3rd edition (and Pathfinder), and it was a right pain for the DM.
But that status effect is only effective at higher level if the spellcaster dc save is high enough
I mean if your caster at higher levels has a bad save DC that is a problem with virtually the entire kit at that point, because that will also be a bad spell attack roll as well.
I wonder how a player leveling up and using his or her ASI's to boost their casting stat will have a bad save DC oh wait I see they didn't raise their casting stat that's the players issue not the class issue.
Pact of the Chain is already incredibly powerful, especially when one considers the Invocations that buff it. Remember, anytime you cast the spell you can switch your familiar’s form. When the Sprite would be most useful, summon it as a Sprite, when a Pseudodragon, Imp, or Quasit would be more beneficial, summon one of those instead. They each have different traits that are useful under various circumstances.
Well, for one thing, 1 damage is not pointless, it’s the exact minimum damage required to dose a creature with any Injury type poison, which is why people take the blowgun. For another thing, remember in the beginning when I mentioned changing your familiar’s form to whichever most aptly fits a particular situation? If you want your li’l buddy to help in combat then the Quasit would be a better fit than the Sprite. Heck, any of the other three are better in combat than the Sprite for that matter. The Sprite however, is a better spy if the warlock needs their familiar to read creatures, the Pseudodragon is a better scout due to its flying speed, and the Imp is a better “all ‘rounder,” or is better if magical darkness needs to be subverted.
The Sprite’s height is irrelevant, it’s “Size” is Tiny. Many Tiny creatures deal only a single damage, like these for example: bat, cat, crab, hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, fish (quipper), rat, raven, or weasel.
You think the issue you’re grappling with is that they didn’t do a good job designing the feature because a Warlock couldn’t take it and use a Sprite familiar the way you want to. I think the issue you’re actually grappling with (and don’t realize it) is that you want the Sprite familiar to be good at things it was not designed to be good at, and are dismissive of the things it’s actually good at. That’s like saying a hammer was designed poorly because it’s useless as a screwdriver. Just use a screwdriver instead, and save the hammer for when it would be more appropriate. To bring that metaphor home for you: Ask your DM if you could take the Imp familiar instead and simply headcanon it as a Sprite familiar. Wouldn’t that be simpler?
The Pact of the Chain isn’t good because you can pick one of the four additional options and it will be good at everything. It’s good because it’s an power-upgrade to find familiar. The reason that spell is good in the first place is it gives the caster a toolbox full of tools. But Chainpact gets to add four powertools to their toolbox that nobody else has. It doesn’t give you one of the four special choices, it gives you all of them. But an impact drill is not a good circular saw, and a circular saw is not a good angle grinder, and an angle grinder is not a good nail gun, and a nail gun is not a good impact drill. But that’s okay because you have one of each and everyone else has to make do with hand tools.
That’s why, depending on who you ask, chainpact and tomepact are the two top dogs (unless you’re a Hexblade). Those two add the most options to a Warlock. And as the saying goes: “options win battles.”
PS- The PotC scales very well, and it does it the same way the rest of the Pact Boons do, through Eldritch Invocations.
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