as a Rogue when sneak attack is used against an enemy, would one count that attack as a surprise in or out of combat? The enemy doesn’t know where you are. You have successfully achieved sneak attack. So does that constitute the enemy being surprised by your attack? And by surprised I’m just referring to the ability in assassinate not the status.
Getting a sneak attack does not guarantee that you are being sneaky. More often than not, you will get sneak attack damage just from having advantage, or from having an ally up close to the baddie. But if you are getting sneak attack from actually being sneaky, or from hiding, than that will usually constitute them being surprised. Really, though, it just depends on the situation. Are they expecting a strike? If it is a guard or sentry, than they are unlikely to be surprised by an attack.
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
as a Rogue when sneak attack is used against an enemy, would one count that attack as a surprise in or out of combat? The enemy doesn’t know where you are. You have successfully achieved sneak attack. So does that constitute the enemy being surprised by your attack? And by surprised I’m just referring to the ability in assassinate not the status.
Surprise is all about stealth/notice of the enemy. Combat has the concept of surprise specifially because if you start combat surprised, you get no movement/action and you only get reactions after your turn. Out of combat, it's simply "Does the person know you are there". If they don't, I would trigger the assisnate ability, and it would be a crit if it hits.
As it relates to combat, the enemy would have to not notice whoever initiates combat to the point of surprise and losing their action/movement, would also have to not notice you and then you'd have to land that hit. All those things have to line up for you to get the auto crit function of the Assassin Rogue subtype. If the enemy is aware of threats but doesn't notice you? They weren't surprised, they didn't lose their action and you don't get the auto crit.
The practical thing to know is that the Assassinate ability is typically not going to apply to most combats unless you are specifically ambushing an enemy, and then only at the very start if you beat them in initiative. Unless your DM is bending over backwards to allow this scenario or is totally using the surprise rules wrong, it's not going to apply very often in combat.
What it is useful for is stealth solo missions. Sneaking over the wall and murdering the guard before he notices you're there. You know - being an assassin. If you look at the rest of the abilities of the subclass, you can see that's kind of what they were going for here rather than some kind of powerhouse in regular D&D combat.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
as a Rogue when sneak attack is used against an enemy, would one count that attack as a surprise in or out of combat? The enemy doesn’t know where you are. You have successfully achieved sneak attack. So does that constitute the enemy being surprised by your attack? And by surprised I’m just referring to the ability in assassinate not the status.
And by surprised I’m just referring to the ability in assassinate not the status.
The Assassinate feature is referring to the surprised condition. There's no other meaning for surprise in the rules
There is no “surprise condition” or “surprise status.”
Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
That is all “surprised” means. If sneak attack is dealt before the call to roll for initiative, that attack would likely spoil the surprise. If it happens after the first round of combat then there can be no surprise. If it happens during the first round of combat and the DM also coincidentally decides the enemy is surprised… all that means is 1 round sans retaliation.
Initiative takes place at the start of combat so sneak attack should not happen before the call for initiative. If a player announces their rogue is going to shoot an arrow at an NPC then the dm decides who is surprised and everyone rolls initiative. If no-one was expecting it then the rogue might be the only character that is not surprised but the initiative order is still important to see who has a reaction when the arrow is shot (eg if the target rolls higher on initiative they might be able to cast shield or uncanny dodge). There have been several threads about when surprise ends for assassinate and I am not going to get into that debate here.
The practical thing to know is that the Assassinate ability is typically not going to apply to most combats unless you are specifically ambushing an enemy, and then only at the very start if you beat them in initiative. Unless your DM is bending over backwards to allow this scenario or is totally using the surprise rules wrong, it's not going to apply very often in combat.
This is my main gripe with Assassinate - it's a DAMN awesome ability.... but it's actual usefulness is extremely situational. Even if all the pieces miraculously come together (infiltrated the tower, group passed their stealth checks, enemies haven't noticed you), it just takes a terrible initiative from the Assassin Rogue to completely negate the Assassinate Ability.
Of course you can do the solo run which may be easier, but D&D is (generally) a collaborative game, and there are some players who wouldn't fancy giving up their game time to watch the misadventures of Regus the Rogue. And then there's splitting the party... :P
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it just takes a terrible initiative from the Assassin Rogue to completely negate the Assassinate Ability.
In the one party where we have an Assassin, right now he's getting both gift of alacrity at the start of the day from my Fey Touched feat and the twilight cleric's Vigilant Blessing before every combat ;)
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Initiative takes place at the start of combat so sneak attack should not happen before the call for initiative. If a player announces their rogue is going to shoot an arrow at an NPC then the dm decides who is surprised and everyone rolls initiative. If no-one was expecting it then the rogue might be the only character that is not surprised but the initiative order is still important to see who has a reaction when the arrow is shot (eg if the target rolls higher on initiative they might be able to cast shield or uncanny dodge). There have been several threads about when surprise ends for assassinate and I am not going to get into that debate here.
You are absolutely right, that is exactly how it’s sposta hapen. But “sposta” is a very dangerous concept. 😉
The practical thing to know is that the Assassinate ability is typically not going to apply to most combats unless you are specifically ambushing an enemy, and then only at the very start if you beat them in initiative. Unless your DM is bending over backwards to allow this scenario or is totally using the surprise rules wrong, it's not going to apply very often in combat.
This is my main gripe with Assassinate - it's a DAMN awesome ability.... but it's actual usefulness is extremely situational. Even if all the pieces miraculously come together (infiltrated the tower, group passed their stealth checks, enemies haven't noticed you), it just takes a terrible initiative from the Assassin Rogue to completely negate the Assassinate Ability.
To be fair, some of the blame here lies on how surprise works. You can orchestrate an ambush that is triggered by the assassin taking a shot, but then somehow between the time the assassin raises their crossbow and fires everyone else rolls initiative and its possible for them all to act before the person who was supposed to trigger the ambush in the first place.
The practical thing to know is that the Assassinate ability is typically not going to apply to most combats unless you are specifically ambushing an enemy, and then only at the very start if you beat them in initiative. Unless your DM is bending over backwards to allow this scenario or is totally using the surprise rules wrong, it's not going to apply very often in combat.
This is my main gripe with Assassinate - it's a DAMN awesome ability.... but it's actual usefulness is extremely situational. Even if all the pieces miraculously come together (infiltrated the tower, group passed their stealth checks, enemies haven't noticed you), it just takes a terrible initiative from the Assassin Rogue to completely negate the Assassinate Ability.
To be fair, some of the blame here lies on how surprise works. You can orchestrate an ambush that is triggered by the assassin taking a shot, but then somehow between the time the assassin raises their crossbow and fires everyone else rolls initiative and its possible for them all to act before the person who was supposed to trigger the ambush in the first place.
Yeah. I've house ruled it in my games personally that if the rogue in question has made it a point to be hidden from that particular enemy in combat before combat starts regardless of how surprise in 5e works, they get their subclass feature. It just feels better.
Yeah. I've house ruled it in my games personally that if the rogue in question has made it a point to be hidden from that particular enemy in combat before combat starts regardless of how surprise in 5e works, they get their subclass feature. It just feels better.
That's a pretty good house rule that I might have to steal!
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Hey guys, game mechanic question here.
as a Rogue when sneak attack is used against an enemy, would one count that attack as a surprise in or out of combat? The enemy doesn’t know where you are. You have successfully achieved sneak attack. So does that constitute the enemy being surprised by your attack? And by surprised I’m just referring to the ability in assassinate not the status.
Getting a sneak attack does not guarantee that you are being sneaky. More often than not, you will get sneak attack damage just from having advantage, or from having an ally up close to the baddie. But if you are getting sneak attack from actually being sneaky, or from hiding, than that will usually constitute them being surprised. Really, though, it just depends on the situation. Are they expecting a strike? If it is a guard or sentry, than they are unlikely to be surprised by an attack.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
- Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert
Surprise is all about stealth/notice of the enemy. Combat has the concept of surprise specifially because if you start combat surprised, you get no movement/action and you only get reactions after your turn. Out of combat, it's simply "Does the person know you are there". If they don't, I would trigger the assisnate ability, and it would be a crit if it hits.
As it relates to combat, the enemy would have to not notice whoever initiates combat to the point of surprise and losing their action/movement, would also have to not notice you and then you'd have to land that hit. All those things have to line up for you to get the auto crit function of the Assassin Rogue subtype. If the enemy is aware of threats but doesn't notice you? They weren't surprised, they didn't lose their action and you don't get the auto crit.
The practical thing to know is that the Assassinate ability is typically not going to apply to most combats unless you are specifically ambushing an enemy, and then only at the very start if you beat them in initiative. Unless your DM is bending over backwards to allow this scenario or is totally using the surprise rules wrong, it's not going to apply very often in combat.
What it is useful for is stealth solo missions. Sneaking over the wall and murdering the guard before he notices you're there. You know - being an assassin. If you look at the rest of the abilities of the subclass, you can see that's kind of what they were going for here rather than some kind of powerhouse in regular D&D combat.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The Assassinate feature is referring to the surprised "condition". There's no other meaning for surprise in the rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There is no “surprise condition” or “surprise status.”
That is all “surprised” means. If sneak attack is dealt before the call to roll for initiative, that attack would likely spoil the surprise. If it happens after the first round of combat then there can be no surprise. If it happens during the first round of combat and the DM also coincidentally decides the enemy is surprised… all that means is 1 round sans retaliation.
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Initiative takes place at the start of combat so sneak attack should not happen before the call for initiative. If a player announces their rogue is going to shoot an arrow at an NPC then the dm decides who is surprised and everyone rolls initiative. If no-one was expecting it then the rogue might be the only character that is not surprised but the initiative order is still important to see who has a reaction when the arrow is shot (eg if the target rolls higher on initiative they might be able to cast shield or uncanny dodge). There have been several threads about when surprise ends for assassinate and I am not going to get into that debate here.
This is my main gripe with Assassinate - it's a DAMN awesome ability.... but it's actual usefulness is extremely situational. Even if all the pieces miraculously come together (infiltrated the tower, group passed their stealth checks, enemies haven't noticed you), it just takes a terrible initiative from the Assassin Rogue to completely negate the Assassinate Ability.
Of course you can do the solo run which may be easier, but D&D is (generally) a collaborative game, and there are some players who wouldn't fancy giving up their game time to watch the misadventures of Regus the Rogue. And then there's splitting the party... :P
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
In the one party where we have an Assassin, right now he's getting both gift of alacrity at the start of the day from my Fey Touched feat and the twilight cleric's Vigilant Blessing before every combat ;)
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You are absolutely right, that is exactly how it’s sposta hapen. But “sposta” is a very dangerous concept. 😉
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
To be fair, some of the blame here lies on how surprise works. You can orchestrate an ambush that is triggered by the assassin taking a shot, but then somehow between the time the assassin raises their crossbow and fires everyone else rolls initiative and its possible for them all to act before the person who was supposed to trigger the ambush in the first place.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah. I've house ruled it in my games personally that if the rogue in question has made it a point to be hidden from that particular enemy in combat before combat starts regardless of how surprise in 5e works, they get their subclass feature. It just feels better.
Thank y’all so much for the clarification. Everyone of your answers helped out.
That's a pretty good house rule that I might have to steal!
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.