Let me start by saying I am very much a fan of 5e and its development process.
I am not picking a side between Wizards or Pathfinder, or between 5e and earlier versions. But what I am doing is remarking on my own experience and the experience of others that I encounter.
I do not think it would be untrue to say Wizards lost some business to competitors (e.g. Pathfinder) when it transitioned from 3.5 to 4e. I won't go into that discussion further suffice to say Wizards improved on its development process with 5e.
Now that some time has passed I think it is safe to say without question one of the crowning achievements of 5e is the Advantage/Disadvantage system. I often hear from DMs and players converting from other systems and editions that this was the biggest draw for them - simplifying the number crunching at higher level play. Unsolicited I hear this all the time.
I do think there are other small areas though which there was a clear miss.
I have read the comments of many who enjoy when the rules are vague as it allows them to custom tailor the rules for their campaign. For me I never really understood that as even when rules are clear I still see it as the DM has ability to tailor any rules as they feel is best - DM house rules are essentially a "fix" to any problem.
But in my personal preference customizing rules is time consuming, and I really only want to do it as needed, otherwise it is very helpful to have rules already flushed out and available at my finger tips. It gives me the option to run with the default or establish house rules - when rules are not clearly defined it robs me of that option and forces me to slow down and establish the house rules. I am willing to do this of course, but I think as a default this should be avoided.
I am of course headed to a sub-topic within the hotly debated topic of Magic Item distribution in 5e. Again lots of freedom here for a DM to define their own rules, but decreases the speed of picking up the game and playing when rules are not clearly defined. Xanthar's Guide to Everything I thought did a commendable job of trying to further clarify this topic but in the end I still found a lot of discrepancies not only within Xanthar's various systems, but also when compared to the DMG and compared to Adventure League rules. It is very common for individuals at a table to have a very different understanding of Magic Item distribution depending on what materials they have been exposed to.
I find this even more so when it comes to the topic of purchasing spell scrolls and their price. Normally the "no magic items are assumed" rule affects all players equally but I find in the case of spell scrolls this really hampers the party Wizard who relies on acquiring scrolls whereas other classes get their abilities mostly by default. This of course very easy to fix in terms of the party Wizard finds a spell book, but when instead presenting the ability to purchase scrolls - there is no ready made pricing available when a DM wants to do this, or rather there are loose guidelines but the DMG, Xanthar's, and Adventure League present three different pricing scales.
The DMG seems unrealistically expensive at later levels - not arguing that spells are powerful and should not be common place, but compare that to other classes who are getting their top end abilities for free essentially. Xanathar's is a little better but also not specific e.g. do level 2 and level 3 spell scrolls cost the same or different? Adventure league goes about establishing scroll prices for individual levels but only does so for a handful levels.
The bottom line is of course I can create my own formula for spell scroll availability and spell scroll pricing but the lesson of Advantage/Disadvantage is being missed here - it's not immediately intuitive with ready made rules should that be what I want for my campaign. And because this greatly impacts classes like the Wizard it forces me to spend some time deciding how to address it.
Making something up is not too difficult, I just thought it was interesting this area was more vague than others.
Your opinion? Anyone else finding spell scroll prices an exercise in game balance?
Having no magic items at all does not "hamper" the Wizard class any more than it does any other class - adding spells to your spellbook other than the ones you gain every level is 100% bonus above and beyond an already fairly balanced allotment of spells.
At 20th level, without any found spells, a wizard will have 44 spells in their spell book (not counting cantrips). That's what 6 at 1st level and 2 more every level thereafter totals up to. And they will likely be preparing 25 spells at that point. Meanwhile, a sorcerer of the same level only knows 15 spells. The only reason its not completely unfair that the wizard class has the potential to have even more spells in their spell book is because there are only so many spell slots to go around, and each additional spell known or prepared is a diminishing amount of benefit because spells are situational in nature and only so many different situations (whatever they might end up being) are going to come up over the course of playing a campaign.
There is nothing that could possibly be more "immediately intuitive" than the current approach to magic item distribution in 5th edition, since it is literally "whatever you think is right, is." The game is designed assuming no magical item distribution in particular for the express reason that having magic items be 100% extra and completely not factored in to the game math is the only way to enable each group doing whatever they feel like doing - no one has to add in inherent bonuses to cover the gap between a no-item character and what the game expects of the character, no one has to feel forced to hand out particular sorts of items to stop characters from "falling behind", nobody needs to try and keep track of who has how much what because the game says don't give out more than X at Y level... and the only folks that have to do extra work of any kind are the ones that specifically want to be doing extra work (i.e. wanting to include magic items but also redesign the system so that the degree to which they include items is what gets the characters to meet the game math expectations, rather than behaving in the entirely intuitive way that a bonus is genuinely a bonus).
The advantage of Wizards being the diversity of their spells they can choose from when preparing for the day, I would suggest implies they are readily able to acquire spell scrolls to some degree, which is in conflict with the assumption of no magic items assumed.
It could just be my experience, but I think most Wizard players would feel under powered if you limited them to their two spells at level up. Sure a smart player could get by but I imagine many would play a sorcerer or something else if they knew that in advance.
The advantage of Wizards being the diversity of their spells they can choose from when preparing for the day, I would suggest implies they are readily able to acquire spell scrolls to some degree, which is in conflict with the assumption of no magic items assumed.
Nope - there is no conflict. Wizards get to have 6 1st level spells in their spellbook, and then prepare 1+Intelligence modifier (let's be super conservative and say they only have a +2 modifier at 1st level, so they prepare 3 spells) - the next nearest class in style, the sorcerer, gets to know 2 1st level spells.
The wizard starting at 3 times as many spells in their book than a sorcerer knows, and getting to prepare 50% more spells, and that lead only going up with level, shows very clearly that there is no conflict between the ideas that the wizard is meant to have a greater diversity of spells than other similar classes and that spell scrolls, like all magic items, are not assumed to be present.
It could just be my experience, but I think most Wizard players would feel under powered if you limited them to their two spells at level up.
You may as well have just said "It could just be my experience, but I think most Fighter players would feel under powered if you limited them to their 20 strength and normal weapons." Even in the cases where it is true that a player feels under powered, that doesn't actually make them factually under-powered, and doesn't mean that the solution is to crank up the power-level of their character as opposed to say, educating them as to how they are already plenty powerful relative to the challenges they will face so their feelings are then able to line up with reality.
Sure a smart player could get by but I imagine many would play a sorcerer or something else if they knew that in advance.
That's a very strange reaction you are describing. "Oh, I only get to prepare 25 spells at maximum and I have to pick those from a list of only 44 spells each day? Nah, I'll just take the 15 spells at maximum that I rarely get to change any of." Which, oddly enough, takes a smarter player to "get by" with following your own logic that to get by with only the standard allotment of wizard spells requires smarts.
At 20th level, without any found spells, a wizard will have 44 spells in their spell book (not counting cantrips). That's what 6 at 1st level and 2 more every level thereafter totals up to. And they will likely be preparing 25 spells at that point. Meanwhile, a sorcerer of the same level only knows 15 spells.
Plus the wizard has about 100 more spells in their class spell list, and they can cast rituals without having them prepared.
The advantage of Wizards being the diversity of their spells they can choose from when preparing for the day, I would suggest implies they are readily able to acquire spell scrolls to some degree, which is in conflict with the assumption of no magic items assumed.
It's not an assumption, it comes straight from the horse's mouth.
I'm completely with AaronOfBarbaria here. All Wizards I played, and saw being played, had plenty of spells to choose from. There is no intrinsic need to give them more. The numbers really speak for themselves.
I concede that the math of 44 is essentially x3 the spells known by sorcerers, no argument there. And I do not question that it was the intention of the designers that monster stats assume no magical items. But what I do question is included in that assumption, is the intention by the designers, that Wizards were meant to play the game to only know 2 spells per level past 1st level.
At future spell levels where 2 spells are known, you prepare at max 2 and a min of 0 (if you are casting lower level spells at higher spell slots). It seems like an awful waste of deep spell lists to restrict them to just plentiful choices during leveling up.
As you said number of spell slots bottlenecks the power of spells known, at least to some degree.
I don't think 1st level is the best comparison point for prepared spells as the intelligence mod aspect of the formula, even at the conservative figure of +2, is going to scale at a decreasing ratio i.e. level 1 gets you two, and by level 20 you get +4, certainly level 1 is more of a bump than other levels, even more so if the mod is +3 or +4 at first level. The level component of the formula for prepared spells obviously scales proportionately. Even with this yes Wizards get to prepare more spells, I'm just saying the ratio of prepared spells is a little exaggerated at level 1 because of this.
I think wizards prepared spells are meant to be balanced against a sorcerer's known spells. Most likely 24 prepared vs. 15 known at level 20. I think comparing known spells of 44 to 15 is an unfair comparison because Known Spells has different meanings for the two classes.
Is saying the Wizard spell list has 100 spells on it that the Sorcerer spell list does not have access to really a true statement with current material?
I'm not saying Wizards should find every spell on their spell lists available for sale as a scroll in a store, but even Adventure League rules make scrolls 1 thru 5 available for purchase between adventures seems to support the idea that scrolls are meant to be available to some extent.
...I'm just saying the ratio of prepared spells is a little exaggerated at level 1 because of this.
How so? Even if we carry a 14 Intelligence wizard to 20th level, the ratio pretty much stays at the wizard having a 3:2 ratio of available spells (even when not including rituals that are in the spell book and are thus usable even without being prepared) because 22 is the 15 spells the sorcerer knows x1.5, rounded down.
...Adventure League rules make scrolls 1 thru 5 available for purchase between adventures seems to support the idea that scrolls are meant to be available to some extent.
Adventure League rules also hand out other magic items - so that doesn't actually tell us anything about scrolls specifically. It also is not even kind of telling us that scrolls are intended to be available to wizard characters even if no other magic items are being used in the campaign.
Wizard begins with INT + level (min 1) prepared spells.
So our available comparisons are 2 compared to 1 thru 6. For a +2 mod yes the ratio stays fairly similar but for anything higher the ratio is higher at level one than it is at level 20. A +3 for example results 4 prepared vs. 2 known, or twice as much, the Wizard will not maintain that ratio by level 20.
I thought it was interesting, that outside of Magic Item distribution (aka "loot awards for adventures") spell scrolls are available for players to purchase in Adventure League during Downtime. Lower level scrolls at least, like potions of healing, seem to be enjoying special treatment from other Magic Items.
If you are making the argument that Adventure League awards magic items in general, so therefore is more powerful than intended by the designers, and so we should not gauge them making scrolls available for purchase as intended gameplay. I can see that logic.
A character with 44 known spells and twenty some prepared spells can certainly get by. I wonder if the game as intended though was for a different experience. Example given the Sorcerer's metamagic abilities, etc. was the Wizard's 2 known spells per level intended to be the power balance or was even greater access to the spell list intended to be the balance via spell scrolls?
Even using Xanthar's guide that spell scrolls should be treated as minor magical items, if a DM decides some magical items are available for purchase in their game, it would be helpful to have more clear spell scroll prices that did not treat different spell levels of the same rarity as the same price.
And if spell scrolls were intended to be the same as the figther's +1 sword then you are correct I need to explain to the party wizard that in a game with no magic items (aka no scrolls) they are balanced with the Sorcerer etc.
...was the Wizard's 2 known spells per level intended to be the power balance...
According to the designers, yes. They've said repeatedly that the game is designed to be (roughly) balanced without magic items. They've never once said, or even hinted at, what they actually meant was "without magic items... well, except for scrolls specifically thrown in for a wizard to copy into their book rather than for someone to use in the standard fashion of a one-time bonus casting of a spell."
Finding someone to buy a potion or a scroll isn't too hard, but other items are out of the realm of most but the wealthiest nobles.
[...so scrolls are not "too hard" to find in the marketplace... hmm...go on]
Dmg 23...
A middle-ranked character might gain a follower (see chapter 4, "Creating Nonplayer Characters"), access to potions and scrolls, ...
DMG 37...
At the start of their careers, characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells and wield mundane gear. The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls)...
[...it's almost like they want us to have scrolls...]
Xan 129...
Creating a magic item requires more than just time, effort, and materials. It is a long term process that involves one or more adventures to track down rare materials and the lore needed to create the item. Potions of healing and spell scrolls are exceptions to the following rules...
Xan 174...
BUYING AND SELLING
Characters can use their monetary treasure to purchase anything from the equipment lists in chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook. In addition the Adventurers League allows characters to purchase potions and spell scrolls, as detailed below. A spell scroll can be purchased only by a character who is capable of casting the spell in question.
There is a super easy solution here. If you fight any magic users, they drop spellbooks and scrolls. If there are rogues, they might drop scrolls as well. They can use them in the fight, they might not. I make my enemies like PC's and they use magical equipment in battles. You don't just find it in a horde at the end of some encounter. The same with arrows and armor and what not. As such, my players tends to get a good amount of magical items and equipment. I also have mundane character's sorcerers and warlocks but the big bad and even some minor characters are going to have potions and stuff like that.
To me, in a world with magic, that is going to be how it would logically work. I take stat blocks from one creature and sub them for another. I take 4-5 kobolds and level them up and pit them against the party. They might actually be hard at that point. My point is that I make my encounters difficult and my players have the resources to succeed. They can still make poor decisions but with a tactical mind, they can smoke most encounters. I even have holidays, which if they do reconnaissance, the player might be able to attack on a holiday and fight drunk or sleeping people in the vein of George Washington.
After every session, I push the world forward similar to something like dwarf fortress. Unresolved chains progress another stage into enemy bad guys are doing stuff territory and resolved chains have new opportunities. For instance, killing a bunch of hobgoblin warlords gathering a bunch of magical artifacts for an unknown force and ignoring the damage they did to the forest. This resulted in the unknown force activating a powerful illusionist through their midst who attempts to frame the party and have their items confiscated. Then under the guise of a friend, help a rogue steal the items. That was what I attempted, but one of the players was an expert with stealth and used sleight of hand to hide some thieves tools. He broke everyone out, got his equipment back and cleared his name by having the cleric use zone of truth on the illusionist. The prison sentence was a temporary thing while they were setting up a trial to clear their name since they had built up quite a bit of good will so no one really wanted to attack them.
Scrolls aren't specifically intended for Wizards. They are for anyone to use (granting that they have that spell on their class list, etc.). That's the point. Potions of Healing aren't intended solely for the Fighter to use, why do you think Scrolls are intended only for Wizards? Scrolls are intended like any other common, one-shot use magic items -- as a bonus to the party's resources. The fact that the Wizard has the ability to use those scrolls to boost their own power levels (by transcribing them into their spellbooks) is a bonus to that class. But, if you are playing a game without a Wizard, scrolls are still useful, valuable objects that can help a party to overcome threats and get past obstacles in the same manner that a potion of healing can help a party continue on after (or during) a fateful fight.
Scrolls are the equivalent of a healing potion, an invisibility potion, or a magic arrow, or a half-dozen other single-use, relatively common magic item. And just like how a Rogue can make an Invisibility potion more valuable by their use of it in conjunction with their class abilities, and a Ranger (or archery-focused Fighter) can get more value out of that magic arrow, so too can a Wizard make a scroll more valuable by their being able to transcribe it. But someone who is not a Rogue can still get value from being invisible, someone who is not an archer can still get value from a magic arrow, and someone who is not a Wizard can still get value out of a scroll.
So, the quotes you provide are true-- the designers did want players to have scrolls as treasure. They just didn't intend them solely or only for Wizards to boost their spellbook count. The designers wanted them for the party to help the party survive. And, as such, they are purchasable in some instances, creatable in others, and are treasure items in the "common consumable" category in others -- just like potions.
Something that i haven't seen anyone addressing is that outside of subclasses, spell casting is the only thing wizards have. while its true that the wizard knows roughly three times as many spells as a sorcerer, the sorcerer also has meta magic, and subclass features that aren't affecting their spell casting. similarly, warlocks and bards have options for being frontline fighters (I don't consider bladesinger as a valid front liner). Outside of homebrew or multiclassing wizards need spells for ever situation, combat, social interactions, stealth, gathering food, ect. I'm not saying other classes are good at all of these, but most classes, including, other casters, have features or core stats that help them with at least some of those. I'm my experience, most wizards end up as a one-trick pony that is really good at one thing, or really mediocre at everything.
Just because the wizard can't buy scrolls doesn't mean he/she can't find them.
As a DM, knowing you have a wizard in the party, I would sprinkle plenty of wizard spell scrolls around the dungeons and other encounter areas. Heck, I do that now. I don't have a wizard, but I have two characters who have the Ritual Caster feat with Wizard spells. So whenever I am looking for some modest treasure or putting stuff into a treasure hoard, I always check the appropriate level wizard spell list for "Ritual" spells. I think at this point they must have found every single ritual spell a wizard can cast from levels 1-2, and most of level 3. I've actually been annoyed that there aren't more ritual spells, since they can't cast the other ones, and sometimes I have gone "Let me put another ritual spell in for these guys" only to find out, nope, at this level, they have them all already.
So no, they can't buy scrolls in a shop, because I don't like the feel of that in my game. But I still try to put the scrolls they may want/need into the game to be found while exploring, fighting monsters, etc.
It seems to me as a DM, even if you are doing a low magic/hardly-any-magic-items world, if you know you have a wizard who must find spell scrolls to expand the spell book, you should think about putting some spell scrolls here and there. Yes, I know it is not "required" that they obtain more than the level-advancement spells, but to me, if I'm playing a wizard, building the spell book is the whole fun of the class. (In fact it's why I'd much rather play a wizard than some of the other casters -- spell books are cool.) As a DM, I would not take that fun aspect away just because it is a low-magic world. There'd still be scrolls or spell books or something to find here and there so the wizard can build his spell library. Because that is the part of what the class is all about.
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I'm surprised it's not been mentioned (or if it was, I must have missed it and apologise if so).
Wizards don't need spell scrolls to get extra spells. The spells they scribe into their spellbook can be from any written source like other wizard spellbooks/notes. So even if magic spell scrolls are rare to find and impossible to buy - the DM can still provide non-magic spell pages/spellbooks or encounter wizards willing to share a spell.
Where other characters might get new armour, weapons and such, a wizard gets more spells. Nothing limits those rewarded spells to the form of magical spell scrolls.
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I've been playing D&D for a while now. Like many old-timers I have my own campaign setting. In my world magic items are *rare*. I want my players to be happy when and if they get one, to be pleased and proud of it. I have been in too many games where the reaction to getting a +3 weapon is along the lines of "+3? I'm 5th level! It should be at least +5. Doesn't it have any special properties or something?"
In a setting like that, I'm not about to hand out scrolls. Sure, they exist. Just like it says, they are the kind of thing you don't find up for sale in a store. You might be able to buy one at an invitation only auction held for the local nobles. You have been maintaining an Aristocratic lifestyle, right? 10 gold a day, paid in advance by the month. Did you pay your 300 gold pieces for this month? Do you have any nobles as contacts?
No, I do not allow Artificers. My campaign setting is older than Eberron. I see no benefit to trying to retro-fit them in.
Magic in my setting was not invented by Humans. There is some argument who did invent it, but it wasn't Humans. None of the races currently in play know how magic really works. They approach it from an Engineering perspective. They may not know how it works or why it does what it does. They know how to trigger it and that is close enough. Research is on-going, and the people driven insane in the process are just a price to pay for what may someday turn up some answers. Some of the best Warlocks got started that way.
Wizards do not *need* scrolls. They get alone fine without them and nobody seems to be arguing that point. Scrolls are kind of neat to have, almost more a vanity item than anything else. Potions are more directly useful and you can't buy them at the local store either. I'm just going to pretend I can't see the listing for Potion of Healing in the Player's Handbook equipment list. I don't want my players to be able to buy magic items, in part because if they get the slightest hint that it is possible, they are going to want to make them themselves. The profit would be huge! Who needs to fight dragons when you can churn out scrolls of Magic Missile?
I think it will be more fun for players to get their scrolls the old fashioned way. Looking for them. I can base entire adventures around trying to get a scroll or two. Perhaps the players will learn the location of one of the ancient tombs the long lost race who supposedly invented magic items created. Getting there can be interesting. Finding the tomb and making their way past the traps and guardians should be a challenge. Once they find it, there is good news and bad news. The guy in the tomb isn't entirely dead. He's a Lich. That's not uncommon for the people who figured out how to make Liches in the first place. They are cranky when disturbed, but not impossible to negotiate with.
Once the players have their scrolls, they still have to get home, and once there a few problems may manifest. That scroll was written by someone who spoke a language that hasn't been used for a millennium. Finding someone who can translate, or teach you how to speak it, won't be trivial. While you are looking, word is sure to get out about the fact that you have a scroll. People with real wealth and power may want it. Some of them may make you offers they don't think you can refuse. For the Wizard's Guild a scroll with a new spell is a treasure beyond price. The king may want it. The Thieves Guild may want it too. Which of the three would you least like to offend? Keeping it for yourself will probably irk them all.
I will try and make the reward commensurate with the difficulty you had in getting it. If you end up selling the scroll to the king, he's going to owe you a pretty big favor. Maybe he will order the Wizard's guild to let your Wizard copy a few spells from one of their spell books. You end up with new spells, the king ends up with a scroll, and you got paid too! Plus any and all loot you picked up on the way.
As always, it is up to you. If it suits you to have multiple Artificers churning out magic items and selling them door to door, feel free. If the players are having fun that's all that matters. Use only as directed. Some restrictions apply. Not available in all states. No refunds. Consult your doctor, lawyer or local demonologist if symptoms persist. Side effects may include runny nose, cough, fever, night sweats, undeath, real death, or an itchy rash. You may have already won. Does not include tax, title, or license and registration. Operators are standing by, order now. But wait, there is more, with two you get an eggroll. Not only that, if you order right now, you get one of our free tableware sets including our well known butter knives that can saw through plate armor and still slice a tomato. Mace of Sharpness is a registered trademark. Do not taunt Happy Fun Halfling. Experience may change during online play.
Something that i haven't seen anyone addressing is that outside of subclasses, spell casting is the only thing wizards have. while its true that the wizard knows roughly three times as many spells as a sorcerer, the sorcerer also has meta magic, and subclass features that aren't affecting their spell casting.
I disagree with this. While the wizard class doesn't bring much more to the table, when you bring in subclass things change a lot. I think plenty of people would argue that things like Portent or Arcane Deflection or Manifest Mind and many others offered to wizards are very strong features. Wizard is a class where you get most of your features from your subclass, but I've never heard anyone complain that they are feature-poor in 5e.
Something that i haven't seen anyone addressing is that outside of subclasses, spell casting is the only thing wizards have. while its true that the wizard knows roughly three times as many spells as a sorcerer, the sorcerer also has meta magic, and subclass features that aren't affecting their spell casting.
I disagree with this. While the wizard class doesn't bring much more to the table, when you bring in subclass things change a lot. I think plenty of people would argue that things like Portent or Arcane Deflection or Manifest Mind and many others offered to wizards are very strong features. Wizard is a class where you get most of your features from your subclass, but I've never heard anyone complain that they are feature-poor in 5e.
Not to mention that sorcerers really don't have a lot of sorcery points, especially at low levels. Given that many sorcerer class and subclass abilities are fueled by metamagic, that means that you burn out on them quickly.
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Let me start by saying I am very much a fan of 5e and its development process.
I am not picking a side between Wizards or Pathfinder, or between 5e and earlier versions. But what I am doing is remarking on my own experience and the experience of others that I encounter.
I do not think it would be untrue to say Wizards lost some business to competitors (e.g. Pathfinder) when it transitioned from 3.5 to 4e. I won't go into that discussion further suffice to say Wizards improved on its development process with 5e.
Now that some time has passed I think it is safe to say without question one of the crowning achievements of 5e is the Advantage/Disadvantage system. I often hear from DMs and players converting from other systems and editions that this was the biggest draw for them - simplifying the number crunching at higher level play. Unsolicited I hear this all the time.
I do think there are other small areas though which there was a clear miss.
I have read the comments of many who enjoy when the rules are vague as it allows them to custom tailor the rules for their campaign. For me I never really understood that as even when rules are clear I still see it as the DM has ability to tailor any rules as they feel is best - DM house rules are essentially a "fix" to any problem.
But in my personal preference customizing rules is time consuming, and I really only want to do it as needed, otherwise it is very helpful to have rules already flushed out and available at my finger tips. It gives me the option to run with the default or establish house rules - when rules are not clearly defined it robs me of that option and forces me to slow down and establish the house rules. I am willing to do this of course, but I think as a default this should be avoided.
I am of course headed to a sub-topic within the hotly debated topic of Magic Item distribution in 5e. Again lots of freedom here for a DM to define their own rules, but decreases the speed of picking up the game and playing when rules are not clearly defined. Xanthar's Guide to Everything I thought did a commendable job of trying to further clarify this topic but in the end I still found a lot of discrepancies not only within Xanthar's various systems, but also when compared to the DMG and compared to Adventure League rules. It is very common for individuals at a table to have a very different understanding of Magic Item distribution depending on what materials they have been exposed to.
I find this even more so when it comes to the topic of purchasing spell scrolls and their price. Normally the "no magic items are assumed" rule affects all players equally but I find in the case of spell scrolls this really hampers the party Wizard who relies on acquiring scrolls whereas other classes get their abilities mostly by default. This of course very easy to fix in terms of the party Wizard finds a spell book, but when instead presenting the ability to purchase scrolls - there is no ready made pricing available when a DM wants to do this, or rather there are loose guidelines but the DMG, Xanthar's, and Adventure League present three different pricing scales.
The DMG seems unrealistically expensive at later levels - not arguing that spells are powerful and should not be common place, but compare that to other classes who are getting their top end abilities for free essentially. Xanathar's is a little better but also not specific e.g. do level 2 and level 3 spell scrolls cost the same or different? Adventure league goes about establishing scroll prices for individual levels but only does so for a handful levels.
The bottom line is of course I can create my own formula for spell scroll availability and spell scroll pricing but the lesson of Advantage/Disadvantage is being missed here - it's not immediately intuitive with ready made rules should that be what I want for my campaign. And because this greatly impacts classes like the Wizard it forces me to spend some time deciding how to address it.
Making something up is not too difficult, I just thought it was interesting this area was more vague than others.
Your opinion? Anyone else finding spell scroll prices an exercise in game balance?
Having no magic items at all does not "hamper" the Wizard class any more than it does any other class - adding spells to your spellbook other than the ones you gain every level is 100% bonus above and beyond an already fairly balanced allotment of spells.
At 20th level, without any found spells, a wizard will have 44 spells in their spell book (not counting cantrips). That's what 6 at 1st level and 2 more every level thereafter totals up to. And they will likely be preparing 25 spells at that point. Meanwhile, a sorcerer of the same level only knows 15 spells. The only reason its not completely unfair that the wizard class has the potential to have even more spells in their spell book is because there are only so many spell slots to go around, and each additional spell known or prepared is a diminishing amount of benefit because spells are situational in nature and only so many different situations (whatever they might end up being) are going to come up over the course of playing a campaign.
There is nothing that could possibly be more "immediately intuitive" than the current approach to magic item distribution in 5th edition, since it is literally "whatever you think is right, is." The game is designed assuming no magical item distribution in particular for the express reason that having magic items be 100% extra and completely not factored in to the game math is the only way to enable each group doing whatever they feel like doing - no one has to add in inherent bonuses to cover the gap between a no-item character and what the game expects of the character, no one has to feel forced to hand out particular sorts of items to stop characters from "falling behind", nobody needs to try and keep track of who has how much what because the game says don't give out more than X at Y level... and the only folks that have to do extra work of any kind are the ones that specifically want to be doing extra work (i.e. wanting to include magic items but also redesign the system so that the degree to which they include items is what gets the characters to meet the game math expectations, rather than behaving in the entirely intuitive way that a bonus is genuinely a bonus).
The advantage of Wizards being the diversity of their spells they can choose from when preparing for the day, I would suggest implies they are readily able to acquire spell scrolls to some degree, which is in conflict with the assumption of no magic items assumed.
It could just be my experience, but I think most Wizard players would feel under powered if you limited them to their two spells at level up. Sure a smart player could get by but I imagine many would play a sorcerer or something else if they knew that in advance.
Nope - there is no conflict. Wizards get to have 6 1st level spells in their spellbook, and then prepare 1+Intelligence modifier (let's be super conservative and say they only have a +2 modifier at 1st level, so they prepare 3 spells) - the next nearest class in style, the sorcerer, gets to know 2 1st level spells.
The wizard starting at 3 times as many spells in their book than a sorcerer knows, and getting to prepare 50% more spells, and that lead only going up with level, shows very clearly that there is no conflict between the ideas that the wizard is meant to have a greater diversity of spells than other similar classes and that spell scrolls, like all magic items, are not assumed to be present.
You may as well have just said "It could just be my experience, but I think most Fighter players would feel under powered if you limited them to their 20 strength and normal weapons." Even in the cases where it is true that a player feels under powered, that doesn't actually make them factually under-powered, and doesn't mean that the solution is to crank up the power-level of their character as opposed to say, educating them as to how they are already plenty powerful relative to the challenges they will face so their feelings are then able to line up with reality.
That's a very strange reaction you are describing. "Oh, I only get to prepare 25 spells at maximum and I have to pick those from a list of only 44 spells each day? Nah, I'll just take the 15 spells at maximum that I rarely get to change any of." Which, oddly enough, takes a smarter player to "get by" with following your own logic that to get by with only the standard allotment of wizard spells requires smarts.Plus the wizard has about 100 more spells in their class spell list, and they can cast rituals without having them prepared.
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I'm completely with AaronOfBarbaria here. All Wizards I played, and saw being played, had plenty of spells to choose from. There is no intrinsic need to give them more. The numbers really speak for themselves.
I concede that the math of 44 is essentially x3 the spells known by sorcerers, no argument there. And I do not question that it was the intention of the designers that monster stats assume no magical items. But what I do question is included in that assumption, is the intention by the designers, that Wizards were meant to play the game to only know 2 spells per level past 1st level.
At future spell levels where 2 spells are known, you prepare at max 2 and a min of 0 (if you are casting lower level spells at higher spell slots). It seems like an awful waste of deep spell lists to restrict them to just plentiful choices during leveling up.
As you said number of spell slots bottlenecks the power of spells known, at least to some degree.
I don't think 1st level is the best comparison point for prepared spells as the intelligence mod aspect of the formula, even at the conservative figure of +2, is going to scale at a decreasing ratio i.e. level 1 gets you two, and by level 20 you get +4, certainly level 1 is more of a bump than other levels, even more so if the mod is +3 or +4 at first level. The level component of the formula for prepared spells obviously scales proportionately. Even with this yes Wizards get to prepare more spells, I'm just saying the ratio of prepared spells is a little exaggerated at level 1 because of this.
I think wizards prepared spells are meant to be balanced against a sorcerer's known spells. Most likely 24 prepared vs. 15 known at level 20. I think comparing known spells of 44 to 15 is an unfair comparison because Known Spells has different meanings for the two classes.
Is saying the Wizard spell list has 100 spells on it that the Sorcerer spell list does not have access to really a true statement with current material?
I'm not saying Wizards should find every spell on their spell lists available for sale as a scroll in a store, but even Adventure League rules make scrolls 1 thru 5 available for purchase between adventures seems to support the idea that scrolls are meant to be available to some extent.
How so? Even if we carry a 14 Intelligence wizard to 20th level, the ratio pretty much stays at the wizard having a 3:2 ratio of available spells (even when not including rituals that are in the spell book and are thus usable even without being prepared) because 22 is the 15 spells the sorcerer knows x1.5, rounded down.
Adventure League rules also hand out other magic items - so that doesn't actually tell us anything about scrolls specifically. It also is not even kind of telling us that scrolls are intended to be available to wizard characters even if no other magic items are being used in the campaign.Sorcerer begins with 2 Known Spells.
Wizard begins with INT + level (min 1) prepared spells.
So our available comparisons are 2 compared to 1 thru 6. For a +2 mod yes the ratio stays fairly similar but for anything higher the ratio is higher at level one than it is at level 20. A +3 for example results 4 prepared vs. 2 known, or twice as much, the Wizard will not maintain that ratio by level 20.
I thought it was interesting, that outside of Magic Item distribution (aka "loot awards for adventures") spell scrolls are available for players to purchase in Adventure League during Downtime. Lower level scrolls at least, like potions of healing, seem to be enjoying special treatment from other Magic Items.
If you are making the argument that Adventure League awards magic items in general, so therefore is more powerful than intended by the designers, and so we should not gauge them making scrolls available for purchase as intended gameplay. I can see that logic.
A character with 44 known spells and twenty some prepared spells can certainly get by. I wonder if the game as intended though was for a different experience. Example given the Sorcerer's metamagic abilities, etc. was the Wizard's 2 known spells per level intended to be the power balance or was even greater access to the spell list intended to be the balance via spell scrolls?
Even using Xanthar's guide that spell scrolls should be treated as minor magical items, if a DM decides some magical items are available for purchase in their game, it would be helpful to have more clear spell scroll prices that did not treat different spell levels of the same rarity as the same price.
And if spell scrolls were intended to be the same as the figther's +1 sword then you are correct I need to explain to the party wizard that in a game with no magic items (aka no scrolls) they are balanced with the Sorcerer etc.
According to the designers, yes. They've said repeatedly that the game is designed to be (roughly) balanced without magic items. They've never once said, or even hinted at, what they actually meant was "without magic items... well, except for scrolls specifically thrown in for a wizard to copy into their book rather than for someone to use in the standard fashion of a one-time bonus casting of a spell."
PHB 114...
Finding someone to buy a potion or a scroll isn't too hard, but other items are out of the realm of most but the wealthiest nobles.
[...so scrolls are not "too hard" to find in the marketplace... hmm...go on]
Dmg 23...
A middle-ranked character might gain a follower (see chapter 4, "Creating Nonplayer Characters"), access to potions and scrolls, ...
DMG 37...
At the start of their careers, characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells and wield mundane gear. The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls)...
[...it's almost like they want us to have scrolls...]
Xan 129...
Creating a magic item requires more than just time, effort, and materials. It is a long term process that involves one or more adventures to track down rare materials and the lore needed to create the item. Potions of healing and spell scrolls are exceptions to the following rules...
Xan 174...
BUYING AND SELLING
Characters can use their monetary treasure to purchase anything from the equipment lists in chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook. In addition the Adventurers League allows characters to purchase potions and spell scrolls, as detailed below. A spell scroll can be purchased only by a character who is capable of casting the spell in question.
[...Purge the heretics!]
There is a super easy solution here. If you fight any magic users, they drop spellbooks and scrolls. If there are rogues, they might drop scrolls as well. They can use them in the fight, they might not. I make my enemies like PC's and they use magical equipment in battles. You don't just find it in a horde at the end of some encounter. The same with arrows and armor and what not. As such, my players tends to get a good amount of magical items and equipment. I also have mundane character's sorcerers and warlocks but the big bad and even some minor characters are going to have potions and stuff like that.
To me, in a world with magic, that is going to be how it would logically work. I take stat blocks from one creature and sub them for another. I take 4-5 kobolds and level them up and pit them against the party. They might actually be hard at that point. My point is that I make my encounters difficult and my players have the resources to succeed. They can still make poor decisions but with a tactical mind, they can smoke most encounters. I even have holidays, which if they do reconnaissance, the player might be able to attack on a holiday and fight drunk or sleeping people in the vein of George Washington.
After every session, I push the world forward similar to something like dwarf fortress. Unresolved chains progress another stage into enemy bad guys are doing stuff territory and resolved chains have new opportunities. For instance, killing a bunch of hobgoblin warlords gathering a bunch of magical artifacts for an unknown force and ignoring the damage they did to the forest. This resulted in the unknown force activating a powerful illusionist through their midst who attempts to frame the party and have their items confiscated. Then under the guise of a friend, help a rogue steal the items. That was what I attempted, but one of the players was an expert with stealth and used sleight of hand to hide some thieves tools. He broke everyone out, got his equipment back and cleared his name by having the cleric use zone of truth on the illusionist. The prison sentence was a temporary thing while they were setting up a trial to clear their name since they had built up quite a bit of good will so no one really wanted to attack them.
Scrolls aren't specifically intended for Wizards. They are for anyone to use (granting that they have that spell on their class list, etc.). That's the point. Potions of Healing aren't intended solely for the Fighter to use, why do you think Scrolls are intended only for Wizards? Scrolls are intended like any other common, one-shot use magic items -- as a bonus to the party's resources. The fact that the Wizard has the ability to use those scrolls to boost their own power levels (by transcribing them into their spellbooks) is a bonus to that class. But, if you are playing a game without a Wizard, scrolls are still useful, valuable objects that can help a party to overcome threats and get past obstacles in the same manner that a potion of healing can help a party continue on after (or during) a fateful fight.
Scrolls are the equivalent of a healing potion, an invisibility potion, or a magic arrow, or a half-dozen other single-use, relatively common magic item. And just like how a Rogue can make an Invisibility potion more valuable by their use of it in conjunction with their class abilities, and a Ranger (or archery-focused Fighter) can get more value out of that magic arrow, so too can a Wizard make a scroll more valuable by their being able to transcribe it. But someone who is not a Rogue can still get value from being invisible, someone who is not an archer can still get value from a magic arrow, and someone who is not a Wizard can still get value out of a scroll.
So, the quotes you provide are true-- the designers did want players to have scrolls as treasure. They just didn't intend them solely or only for Wizards to boost their spellbook count. The designers wanted them for the party to help the party survive. And, as such, they are purchasable in some instances, creatable in others, and are treasure items in the "common consumable" category in others -- just like potions.
Something that i haven't seen anyone addressing is that outside of subclasses, spell casting is the only thing wizards have. while its true that the wizard knows roughly three times as many spells as a sorcerer, the sorcerer also has meta magic, and subclass features that aren't affecting their spell casting. similarly, warlocks and bards have options for being frontline fighters (I don't consider bladesinger as a valid front liner). Outside of homebrew or multiclassing wizards need spells for ever situation, combat, social interactions, stealth, gathering food, ect. I'm not saying other classes are good at all of these, but most classes, including, other casters, have features or core stats that help them with at least some of those. I'm my experience, most wizards end up as a one-trick pony that is really good at one thing, or really mediocre at everything.
Just because the wizard can't buy scrolls doesn't mean he/she can't find them.
As a DM, knowing you have a wizard in the party, I would sprinkle plenty of wizard spell scrolls around the dungeons and other encounter areas. Heck, I do that now. I don't have a wizard, but I have two characters who have the Ritual Caster feat with Wizard spells. So whenever I am looking for some modest treasure or putting stuff into a treasure hoard, I always check the appropriate level wizard spell list for "Ritual" spells. I think at this point they must have found every single ritual spell a wizard can cast from levels 1-2, and most of level 3. I've actually been annoyed that there aren't more ritual spells, since they can't cast the other ones, and sometimes I have gone "Let me put another ritual spell in for these guys" only to find out, nope, at this level, they have them all already.
So no, they can't buy scrolls in a shop, because I don't like the feel of that in my game. But I still try to put the scrolls they may want/need into the game to be found while exploring, fighting monsters, etc.
It seems to me as a DM, even if you are doing a low magic/hardly-any-magic-items world, if you know you have a wizard who must find spell scrolls to expand the spell book, you should think about putting some spell scrolls here and there. Yes, I know it is not "required" that they obtain more than the level-advancement spells, but to me, if I'm playing a wizard, building the spell book is the whole fun of the class. (In fact it's why I'd much rather play a wizard than some of the other casters -- spell books are cool.) As a DM, I would not take that fun aspect away just because it is a low-magic world. There'd still be scrolls or spell books or something to find here and there so the wizard can build his spell library. Because that is the part of what the class is all about.
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I'm surprised it's not been mentioned (or if it was, I must have missed it and apologise if so).
Wizards don't need spell scrolls to get extra spells. The spells they scribe into their spellbook can be from any written source like other wizard spellbooks/notes. So even if magic spell scrolls are rare to find and impossible to buy - the DM can still provide non-magic spell pages/spellbooks or encounter wizards willing to share a spell.
Where other characters might get new armour, weapons and such, a wizard gets more spells. Nothing limits those rewarded spells to the form of magical spell scrolls.
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I've been playing D&D for a while now. Like many old-timers I have my own campaign setting. In my world magic items are *rare*. I want my players to be happy when and if they get one, to be pleased and proud of it. I have been in too many games where the reaction to getting a +3 weapon is along the lines of "+3? I'm 5th level! It should be at least +5. Doesn't it have any special properties or something?"
In a setting like that, I'm not about to hand out scrolls. Sure, they exist. Just like it says, they are the kind of thing you don't find up for sale in a store. You might be able to buy one at an invitation only auction held for the local nobles. You have been maintaining an Aristocratic lifestyle, right? 10 gold a day, paid in advance by the month. Did you pay your 300 gold pieces for this month? Do you have any nobles as contacts?
No, I do not allow Artificers. My campaign setting is older than Eberron. I see no benefit to trying to retro-fit them in.
Magic in my setting was not invented by Humans. There is some argument who did invent it, but it wasn't Humans. None of the races currently in play know how magic really works. They approach it from an Engineering perspective. They may not know how it works or why it does what it does. They know how to trigger it and that is close enough. Research is on-going, and the people driven insane in the process are just a price to pay for what may someday turn up some answers. Some of the best Warlocks got started that way.
Wizards do not *need* scrolls. They get alone fine without them and nobody seems to be arguing that point. Scrolls are kind of neat to have, almost more a vanity item than anything else. Potions are more directly useful and you can't buy them at the local store either. I'm just going to pretend I can't see the listing for Potion of Healing in the Player's Handbook equipment list. I don't want my players to be able to buy magic items, in part because if they get the slightest hint that it is possible, they are going to want to make them themselves. The profit would be huge! Who needs to fight dragons when you can churn out scrolls of Magic Missile?
I think it will be more fun for players to get their scrolls the old fashioned way. Looking for them. I can base entire adventures around trying to get a scroll or two. Perhaps the players will learn the location of one of the ancient tombs the long lost race who supposedly invented magic items created. Getting there can be interesting. Finding the tomb and making their way past the traps and guardians should be a challenge. Once they find it, there is good news and bad news. The guy in the tomb isn't entirely dead. He's a Lich. That's not uncommon for the people who figured out how to make Liches in the first place. They are cranky when disturbed, but not impossible to negotiate with.
Once the players have their scrolls, they still have to get home, and once there a few problems may manifest. That scroll was written by someone who spoke a language that hasn't been used for a millennium. Finding someone who can translate, or teach you how to speak it, won't be trivial. While you are looking, word is sure to get out about the fact that you have a scroll. People with real wealth and power may want it. Some of them may make you offers they don't think you can refuse. For the Wizard's Guild a scroll with a new spell is a treasure beyond price. The king may want it. The Thieves Guild may want it too. Which of the three would you least like to offend? Keeping it for yourself will probably irk them all.
I will try and make the reward commensurate with the difficulty you had in getting it. If you end up selling the scroll to the king, he's going to owe you a pretty big favor. Maybe he will order the Wizard's guild to let your Wizard copy a few spells from one of their spell books. You end up with new spells, the king ends up with a scroll, and you got paid too! Plus any and all loot you picked up on the way.
As always, it is up to you. If it suits you to have multiple Artificers churning out magic items and selling them door to door, feel free. If the players are having fun that's all that matters. Use only as directed. Some restrictions apply. Not available in all states. No refunds. Consult your doctor, lawyer or local demonologist if symptoms persist. Side effects may include runny nose, cough, fever, night sweats, undeath, real death, or an itchy rash. You may have already won. Does not include tax, title, or license and registration. Operators are standing by, order now. But wait, there is more, with two you get an eggroll. Not only that, if you order right now, you get one of our free tableware sets including our well known butter knives that can saw through plate armor and still slice a tomato. Mace of Sharpness is a registered trademark. Do not taunt Happy Fun Halfling. Experience may change during online play.
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I disagree with this. While the wizard class doesn't bring much more to the table, when you bring in subclass things change a lot. I think plenty of people would argue that things like Portent or Arcane Deflection or Manifest Mind and many others offered to wizards are very strong features. Wizard is a class where you get most of your features from your subclass, but I've never heard anyone complain that they are feature-poor in 5e.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Not to mention that sorcerers really don't have a lot of sorcery points, especially at low levels. Given that many sorcerer class and subclass abilities are fueled by metamagic, that means that you burn out on them quickly.
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It's usually considered one of the better traditions, and it's quite clearly a front line type.
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