I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
What you and the "many" like you see, though, is not even close to the actual situation. This is very much a tilting at windmills scenario.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
What you and the "many" like you see, though, is not even close to the actual situation. This is very much a tilting at windmills scenario.
Plenty of posts in many threads and forums on this site of customers unhappy with the way the 14 rules are infested with the 24 rules. You'd have to be engaged in willful ignorance to clam many people are not happy with this choice.
On the other hand there seems to be a select few defending wizbro's choice in not implementing a 24 ruleset toggle.
That is the actual case, where are the guides to help the confused and bewildered navigate the mess wizbro has made of the tools on this site?
I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
What you and the "many" like you see, though, is not even close to the actual situation. This is very much a tilting at windmills scenario.
Plenty of posts in many threads and forums on this site of customers unhappy with the way the 14 rules are infested with the 24 rules. You'd have to be engaged in willful ignorance to clam many people are not happy with this choice.
On the other hand there seems to be a select few defending wizbro's choice in not implementing a 24 ruleset toggle.
Of the almost 19 million members of DDB alone, I have only seen less than ten or so threads, populated by likely less than 30 individual accounts, not all of which find this change to be as worthy of this level of whining. You exist in a bubble. And not even a very large one. I would, charitable concede the moniker of "some" before I would the title of "many." And even that "some" is a rather small sample size, even accounting for any temporary crowd of folk whipped up by click-bait titles and disingenuous arguments from social media slop dealers.
I would contend that, to a vast.....VAST majority, this change is not even a blip on their radar. To a smaller many, this change is probably a positive change as the update takes into account many of the pain points of 5th Ed that were identified over the years. To a smaller group of some, this change is inconvenient at worst. To an even smaller group of some, this change is some incomprehensible affront to everything they claim to stand for? And to those of us who have to share a space with that last group, there is an even smaller group of few who have the willingness or energy to even bother engaging and attempting to enlighten and explain so as to maybe help make that shared space less of an eyesore to scroll.
I guess I don't understand why people are so against subscribers putting in a feature request. Nobody is suggesting Wiz doesn't have the right to do what they want with the rules, the site, etc.
DDB is primarily a toolset which draws data from different sources. We are subscribing to the toolset, not the data source. We have to purchase the data source separately. What we are asking for is a feature in the toolset to give us greater control over what data sources are used.
I'm not sure why people feel so threatened by this.
I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
What you and the "many" like you see, though, is not even close to the actual situation. This is very much a tilting at windmills scenario.
Plenty of posts in many threads and forums on this site of customers unhappy with the way the 14 rules are infested with the 24 rules. You'd have to be engaged in willful ignorance to clam many people are not happy with this choice.
On the other hand there seems to be a select few defending wizbro's choice in not implementing a 24 ruleset toggle.
Of the almost 19 million members of DDB alone, I have only seen less than ten or so threads, populated by likely less than 30 individual accounts, not all of which find this change to be as worthy of this level of whining. You exist in a bubble. And not even a very large one. I would, charitable concede the moniker of "some" before I would the title of "many." And even that "some" is a rather small sample size, even accounting for any temporary crowd of folk whipped up by click-bait titles and disingenuous arguments from social media slop dealers.
I would contend that, to a vast.....VAST majority, this change is not even a blip on their radar. To a smaller many, this change is probably a positive change as the update takes into account many of the pain points of 5th Ed that were identified over the years. To a smaller group of some, this change is inconvenient at worst. To an even smaller group of some, this change is some incomprehensible affront to everything they claim to stand for? And to those of us who have to share a space with that last group, there is an even smaller group of few who have the willingness or energy to even bother engaging and attempting to enlighten and explain so as to maybe help make that shared space less of an eyesore to scroll.
Again I will say willful ignorance is the only way you can deduce you're claim, I will concede that the vocal group on either side is closer to 50% (and it is more likely to represent the whole than you would likely accept) than it diverges from that amount, and will still stand by my statement of "many are unhappy" with how wizbro has implemented the 24 rules on DDB. It is also becoming quite apparent that you are bordering on being pedantic in your argument if you continue to readily dismiss how many do view the choice to implement the 24 rules as wizbro has as a punishment, when an extremely easier and better (toggle for the 24 rule set) is an option. Do they have to do it? Unequivocally no, should they? Who knows. Is it a Beyond dumb? Possibly. Does it hurt the toolset? Absolutely!
As I have stated it is affecting my groups to the point "we" (not me) are going to leave D&D. IT is affecting me in that I spent thousands of real dollars and hours of time to get my friends to stop playing videogames and scrolling social media to play D&D, only to have wizbro spoke my wheels and send those players to D&D's competitors rendering the monies I have spent worthless. They would rather learn a new game and go pencil and paper than deal with the crap that is DDB currently. That friend is a reality for me. I honestly don't blame them, who could trust buying in to a platform that will just punish it's customers for not buying the new stuff, the IP holder just gets to change the rules anytime they need to meet profit goals and screw the people that actually play the game. I for one wish I hadn't spent a bent copper on DDB, but since they do not allow selling accounts, I guess I am screwed!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Even simpler would be a toggle to turn off the 24 stuff.
I agree entirely. That would make things extremely easy and make the forums a lot less exhausting to be on again. I would honestly welcome it at this point.
However, it makes no business sense and would absolutely harm future sales of 2024 content to do so. Part of my job includes operating a small team of clinicians in a behavioral health program. One of the key things I teach my clinicians about our program is to not give the patient the option to refuse you. If someone gives a patient the option to engage in behavioral health, it is almost a universal fact that the patient will say no. Once the patient breathes life into that decision by voicing it, they will become so committed to refusing it, they will reject help even when they know it will harm them to refuse it. The opportunity to save a life is gone until their next crisis and we have to cross our fingers that they don't check out of life early once they discharge and are out of our reach. Many people are change averse, even if that change is ultimately good for them.
Why am I bringing this up? WotC has a product that they want you to use. That product is the 2024 toolset. If they give you the option to not use it or even see it, well, that would be like one of my clinicians asking a patient if they want to engage in behavioral health.
So it isn't sabotage, it is marketing, how does that make it better?
I see it as lack of confidence in their new product, and if they are not confident I am not either.
You know, I would not have expected a bad faith response from you. I will update my priors and I am disappointed.
Where is the bad faith?
Semantics and a personal view do not bad faith make.
I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
It is bad faith because it in no way was this the message I was communicating (which you obviously know) and your sarcastic dismissal was misrepresenting my message so you can stubbornly insist on being angry about something you have no control over. In effect, wasting your energy and proving my point anyway, as the ultimate message was that even if something is an improvement, change averse people will gnash their teeth and rage against it.
It is not a lack of faith in their product either, as even initial critics who have set their rage aside admit that it is in many ways a superior change to the rules. It is a lack of faith in you and how, really, are you proving that this lack of faith is misplaced? How is this whinging proving that if they simply gave you a toggle to switch off 2024, that you would come around to it? It is not just in their purview, it is in their business interest for WotC to prioritize and make ever-present the heavy investment they have made, which will drive play toward that investment. Even if you never buy a single 2024 product, simply playing on the site will put 2024 in front of you and your table so that one day, maybe even soon, someone at your table will ask 'hey, can we give this a try sometime?' It has already happened at two of the three tables I play at. They are not forcing you to do anything, so decidedly not a punishment unless we are so dramatic as to think a single scrolling of the mouse wheel is punishment, or seeing the Legacy tag on a spell to remind you that you are using outdated content is equivalent to a Vicious Mockery, but they are going to make their current product easier to use because it is stupid not to.
Even simpler would be a toggle to turn off the 24 stuff.
I agree entirely. That would make things extremely easy and make the forums a lot less exhausting to be on again. I would honestly welcome it at this point.
However, it makes no business sense and would absolutely harm future sales of 2024 content to do so. Part of my job includes operating a small team of clinicians in a behavioral health program. One of the key things I teach my clinicians about our program is to not give the patient the option to refuse you. If someone gives a patient the option to engage in behavioral health, it is almost a universal fact that the patient will say no. Once the patient breathes life into that decision by voicing it, they will become so committed to refusing it, they will reject help even when they know it will harm them to refuse it. The opportunity to save a life is gone until their next crisis and we have to cross our fingers that they don't check out of life early once they discharge and are out of our reach. Many people are change averse, even if that change is ultimately good for them.
Why am I bringing this up? WotC has a product that they want you to use. That product is the 2024 toolset. If they give you the option to not use it or even see it, well, that would be like one of my clinicians asking a patient if they want to engage in behavioral health.
So it isn't sabotage, it is marketing, how does that make it better?
I see it as lack of confidence in their new product, and if they are not confident I am not either.
You know, I would not have expected a bad faith response from you. I will update my priors and I am disappointed.
Where is the bad faith?
Semantics and a personal view do not bad faith make.
I completely understand this in wizbro's purview to do this, the bad faith IMHO lies with them. Many, myself included see this as a petty passive aggressive punishment, ie you won't play with my toy like I want you too, so I will break the toy.
It is bad faith because it in no way was this the message I was communicating (which you obviously know) and your sarcastic dismissal was misrepresenting my message so you can stubbornly insist on being angry about something you have no control over. In effect, wasting your energy and proving my point anyway, as the ultimate message was that even if something is an improvement, change averse people will gnash their teeth and rage against it.
It is not a lack of faith in their product either, as even initial critics who have set their rage aside admit that it is in many ways a superior change to the rules. It is a lack of faith in you and how, really, are you proving that this lack of faith is misplaced? How is this whinging proving that if they simply gave you a toggle to switch off 2024, that you would come around to it? It is not just in their purview, it is in their business interest for WotC to prioritize and make ever-present the heavy investment they have made, which will drive play toward that investment. Even if you never buy a single 2024 product, simply playing on the site will put 2024 in front of you and your table so that one day, maybe even soon, someone at your table will ask 'hey, can we give this a try sometime?' It has already happened at two of the three tables I play at. They are not forcing you to do anything, so decidedly not a punishment unless we are so dramatic as to think a single scrolling of the mouse wheel is punishment, or seeing the Legacy tag on a spell to remind you that you are using outdated content is equivalent to a Vicious Mockery, but they are going to make their current product easier to use because it is stupid not to.
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
Your players are choosing to abandon your games. They are not being driven off by a Legacy tag. As I said, the conversation on whether to switch happened at two of the three games I am playing. None are making the switch, it was decided. I am playing 2014 rules in all three and dealing with the same absolutely trivial issues as everyone else in this thread is who says it is beyond the pale. Truly, if you think this is bad, let me sit you down and talk to you about electronic medical records (queue up the War Flashback Dog meme).
WotC is not stopping you from finishing your game, your players are and that is a table problem, not a company problem because literally every company would do the exact same thing if they could. Every one and I have a perfect reference to prove it below. There will be no mass exodus. I spend quite a bit of time on Demiplane and the 'tsunami of players' going to other systems during the OGL issue was more like a weak, wet fart.
Project Black Flag had its own third party crisis that caused people to exodus on their exodus and come limping back to DDB even more jaded than before. Look it up. BF turned out to be just a money grab and all the angry D&D players who wanted to stick it to WotC ended up being the suckers. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but real issues that people should be beating down the door of WotC executives get no face time (removing credits of people from past works got like, 1 page of posts and half were from usual WotC supporters) because D&D players can't come together where it counts; where things impact others instead of themselves. People will bellow about having to scroll their mouse wheel and they may even leave to other systems (I have quite a few I would love to recommend below, actually), but D&D players always come back. Only a handful of the people from the Changelog War are even rageposting still because, much like a selfish lover, most got what they wanted and ran for the door.
But really, I don't fault you for checking out other systems. I think you should. Everyone should. D&D is not the be-all, end-all and people thinking it is is, at least in my opinion, part of why people respond so dramatically when a company makes a sound business decision. Check out Dungeoneering, Mythcraft, Swords and Wizardry, Pathfinder, Starfinder, One Ring, It's Only Magic, Steel & Scale, Crown and Skull, Break!!, Into The Odd, DC 20, Eat the Reich, Bladerunner, Deathmatch Island, The Walking Dead, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, and many others. When the Cosmere RPG releases, I will probably never touch D&D again. There are so many awesome things out there and D&D 5e doesn't even crack my top 10; it's just the one that everyone knows.
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
Your players are choosing to abandon your games. They are not being driven off by a Legacy tag. As I said, the conversation on whether to switch happened at two of the three games I am playing. None are making the switch, it was decided. I am playing 2014 rules in all three and dealing with the same absolutely trivial issues as everyone else in this thread is who says it is beyond the pale. Truly, if you think this is bad, let me sit you down and talk to you about electronic medical records (queue up the War Flashback Dog meme).
WotC is not stopping you from finishing your game, your players are and that is a table problem, not a company problem because literally every company would do the exact same thing if they could. Every one and I have a perfect reference to prove it below. There will be no mass exodus. I spend quite a bit of time on Demiplane and the 'tsunami of players' going to other systems during the OGL issue was more like a weak, wet fart.
Project Black Flag had its own third party crisis that caused people to exodus on their exodus and come limping back to DDB even more jaded than before. Look it up. BF turned out to be just a money grab and all the angry D&D players who wanted to stick it to WotC ended up being the suckers. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but real issues that people should be beating down the door of WotC executives get no face time (removing credits of people from past works got like, 1 page of posts and half were from usual WotC supporters) because D&D players can't come together where it counts; where things impact others instead of themselves. People will bellow about having to scroll their mouse wheel and they may even leave to other systems (I have quite a few I would love to recommend below, actually), but D&D players always come back. Only a handful of the people from the Changelog War are even rageposting still because, much like a selfish lover, most got what they wanted and ran for the door.
But really, I don't fault you for checking out other systems. I think you should. Everyone should. D&D is not the be-all, end-all and people thinking it is is, at least in my opinion, part of why people respond so dramatically when a company makes a sound business decision. Check out Dungeoneering, Mythcraft, Swords and Wizardry, Pathfinder, Starfinder, One Ring, It's Only Magic, Steel & Scale, Crown and Skull, Break!!, Into The Odd, DC 20, Eat the Reich, Bladerunner, Deathmatch Island, The Walking Dead, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, and many others. When the Cosmere RPG releases, I will probably never touch D&D again. There are so many awesome things out there and D&D 5e doesn't even crack my top 10; it's just the one that everyone knows.
If they are successfully following their groups to alternative platforms, then their groups are clearly not rejecting them.
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
Your players are choosing to abandon your games. They are not being driven off by a Legacy tag. As I said, the conversation on whether to switch happened at two of the three games I am playing. None are making the switch, it was decided. I am playing 2014 rules in all three and dealing with the same absolutely trivial issues as everyone else in this thread is who says it is beyond the pale. Truly, if you think this is bad, let me sit you down and talk to you about electronic medical records (queue up the War Flashback Dog meme).
WotC is not stopping you from finishing your game, your players are and that is a table problem, not a company problem because literally every company would do the exact same thing if they could. Every one and I have a perfect reference to prove it below. There will be no mass exodus. I spend quite a bit of time on Demiplane and the 'tsunami of players' going to other systems during the OGL issue was more like a weak, wet fart.
Project Black Flag had its own third party crisis that caused people to exodus on their exodus and come limping back to DDB even more jaded than before. Look it up. BF turned out to be just a money grab and all the angry D&D players who wanted to stick it to WotC ended up being the suckers. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but real issues that people should be beating down the door of WotC executives get no face time (removing credits of people from past works got like, 1 page of posts and half were from usual WotC supporters) because D&D players can't come together where it counts; where things impact others instead of themselves. People will bellow about having to scroll their mouse wheel and they may even leave to other systems (I have quite a few I would love to recommend below, actually), but D&D players always come back. Only a handful of the people from the Changelog War are even rageposting still because, much like a selfish lover, most got what they wanted and ran for the door.
But really, I don't fault you for checking out other systems. I think you should. Everyone should. D&D is not the be-all, end-all and people thinking it is is, at least in my opinion, part of why people respond so dramatically when a company makes a sound business decision. Check out Dungeoneering, Mythcraft, Swords and Wizardry, Pathfinder, Starfinder, One Ring, It's Only Magic, Steel & Scale, Crown and Skull, Break!!, Into The Odd, DC 20, Eat the Reich, Bladerunner, Deathmatch Island, The Walking Dead, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, and many others. When the Cosmere RPG releases, I will probably never touch D&D again. There are so many awesome things out there and D&D 5e doesn't even crack my top 10; it's just the one that everyone knows.
If they are successfully following their groups to alternative platforms, then their groups are clearly not rejecting them.
Not a single word talked about rejecting a person. I think there is some motivated reasoning at play here, but thank you for your insight.
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
Your players are choosing to abandon your games. They are not being driven off by a Legacy tag. As I said, the conversation on whether to switch happened at two of the three games I am playing. None are making the switch, it was decided. I am playing 2014 rules in all three and dealing with the same absolutely trivial issues as everyone else in this thread is who says it is beyond the pale. Truly, if you think this is bad, let me sit you down and talk to you about electronic medical records (queue up the War Flashback Dog meme).
WotC is not stopping you from finishing your game, your players are and that is a table problem, not a company problem because literally every company would do the exact same thing if they could. Every one and I have a perfect reference to prove it below. There will be no mass exodus. I spend quite a bit of time on Demiplane and the 'tsunami of players' going to other systems during the OGL issue was more like a weak, wet fart.
Project Black Flag had its own third party crisis that caused people to exodus on their exodus and come limping back to DDB even more jaded than before. Look it up. BF turned out to be just a money grab and all the angry D&D players who wanted to stick it to WotC ended up being the suckers. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but real issues that people should be beating down the door of WotC executives get no face time (removing credits of people from past works got like, 1 page of posts and half were from usual WotC supporters) because D&D players can't come together where it counts; where things impact others instead of themselves. People will bellow about having to scroll their mouse wheel and they may even leave to other systems (I have quite a few I would love to recommend below, actually), but D&D players always come back. Only a handful of the people from the Changelog War are even rageposting still because, much like a selfish lover, most got what they wanted and ran for the door.
But really, I don't fault you for checking out other systems. I think you should. Everyone should. D&D is not the be-all, end-all and people thinking it is is, at least in my opinion, part of why people respond so dramatically when a company makes a sound business decision. Check out Dungeoneering, Mythcraft, Swords and Wizardry, Pathfinder, Starfinder, One Ring, It's Only Magic, Steel & Scale, Crown and Skull, Break!!, Into The Odd, DC 20, Eat the Reich, Bladerunner, Deathmatch Island, The Walking Dead, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, and many others. When the Cosmere RPG releases, I will probably never touch D&D again. There are so many awesome things out there and D&D 5e doesn't even crack my top 10; it's just the one that everyone knows.
I have always considered them our games which is why I will change platforms when these tables are ready to, I will still play D&D, though I will not spend anymore money on the game until there is a toggle for the 24 stuff.
The players are abandoning D&D, not my games, and they are leaving over how the 24 rules are implemented in the character tools. I would prefer we stay with D&D, but after several discussions they simply will not continue to play a system they can not trust. They see only greed and punishment in the choices made with this roll out, I can't blame them it definitely has that feel. These are not players that care about the ogl and other debacles over the last couple of years, they are player that have a basic grasp of the rules and were just getting comfortable with the game and now are not having fun since the changes.
I still say a toggle would solve far more issues than it would create, it isn't like the new rules won't sell because there is a toggle to turn them off, though there are plenty of people that will not buy anything until there is a toggle from several threads on this site alone.
As for comparing D&D to the medical field I don't think D&D should head that direction at all, though this roll out has needlessly complicated things so I guess it tracks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I still say a toggle would solve far more issues than it would create, it isn't like the new rules won't sell because there is a toggle to turn them off, though there are plenty of people that will not buy anything until there is a toggle from several threads on this site alone.
This is the only thing I will address because I agree with it, just like I did when our conversation started. It does solve a lot of problems. More than it creates too. But it does not drive business toward their product, so while the number of problems solved vs created favors the toggle in a vacuum, the problems are weighted very differently in a practical business sense. The one problem it creates is a big problem; which is that players will use it and not, therefore, be incentivized to consume 2024 content of any kind. For this reason, I do not believe it will happen. It might, I just don't think it would be a good idea to count on them doing it. If that means you need a vacation from D&D, please see my above recommendations. There are things similar to D&D there and some things very different. All are worth trying.
I still say a toggle would solve far more issues than it would create, it isn't like the new rules won't sell because there is a toggle to turn them off, though there are plenty of people that will not buy anything until there is a toggle from several threads on this site alone.
This is the only thing I will address because I agree with it, just like I did when our conversation started. It does solve a lot of problems. More than it creates too. But it does not drive business toward their product, so while the number of problems solved vs created favors the toggle in a vacuum, the problems are weighted very differently in a practical business sense. The one problem it creates is a big problem; which is that players will use it and not, therefore, be incentivized to consume 2024 content of any kind. For this reason, I do not believe it will happen. It might, I just don't think it would be a good idea to count on them doing it. If that means you need a vacation from D&D, please see my above recommendations. There are things similar to D&D there and some things very different. All are worth trying.
This marketing strategy chases off sales too, but I guess if there is no way to quantify the loss of business to the sales made from sheer aggravation it is hard to say it doesn't work, but just as hard to say it does. It is just sad to that as a business plan, aggravate the customer to get them to buy the product. That is a guaranteed way to lose some sales, a toggle may not push people to buy the new books, but it will chase far fewer away from it. I guess I just remember the days when the product was so good you just had to let people know it was available and they would buy it, this new marketing strategy of aggravate until they rage buy or quit is very odd, but D&D is not the only place it is used. It is very unnecessary if you have a really good product. This type of marketing has many parallels in human behaviour and not very many are positive.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
This marketing strategy chases off sales too, but I guess if there is no way to quantify the loss of business to the sales made from sheer aggravation it is hard to say it doesn't work, but just as hard to say it does. It is just sad to that as a business plan, aggravate the customer to get them to buy the product. That is a guaranteed way to lose some sales, a toggle may not push people to buy the new books, but it will chase far fewer away from it. I guess I just remember the days when the product was so good you just had to let people know it was available and they would buy it, this new marketing strategy of aggravate until they rage buy or quit is very odd, but D&D is not the only place it is used. It is very unnecessary if you have a really good product. This type of marketing has many parallels in human behaviour and not very many are positive.
That's a point I made previously... wearing down your customers until they buy your new product is not a great marketing strategy. I would think this would have the opposite of the intended outcome.
I would love to have a toggle that hides all legacy content. It could go next to the toggle that hides all 2024 content. Leave the toggles alone and you get to see all of the content. Seems simple enough to me.
I would love to have a toggle that hides all legacy content. It could go next to the toggle that hides all 2024 content. Leave the toggles alone and you get to see all of the content. Seems simple enough to me.
Yet will we get that disable all 2024+ content toggle?
It does seem like a fair number of people are wanting that toggle right now more than they really want the new rules, so why not give the toggle while working on the site to prepare it and the community for the changes to come?
This marketing strategy chases off sales too, but I guess if there is no way to quantify the loss of business to the sales made from sheer aggravation it is hard to say it doesn't work, but just as hard to say it does. It is just sad to that as a business plan, aggravate the customer to get them to buy the product. That is a guaranteed way to lose some sales, a toggle may not push people to buy the new books, but it will chase far fewer away from it. I guess I just remember the days when the product was so good you just had to let people know it was available and they would buy it, this new marketing strategy of aggravate until they rage buy or quit is very odd, but D&D is not the only place it is used. It is very unnecessary if you have a really good product. This type of marketing has many parallels in human behaviour and not very many are positive.
That's a point I made previously... wearing down your customers until they buy your new product is not a great marketing strategy. I would think this would have the opposite of the intended outcome.
It looks like we are stuck with this style of bully 'em marketing as long as they think it is working, so until enough people vote with their wallets this is what marketing will be here. Rage quit, or rage buy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
What you and the "many" like you see, though, is not even close to the actual situation. This is very much a tilting at windmills scenario.
Plenty of posts in many threads and forums on this site of customers unhappy with the way the 14 rules are infested with the 24 rules. You'd have to be engaged in willful ignorance to clam many people are not happy with this choice.
On the other hand there seems to be a select few defending wizbro's choice in not implementing a 24 ruleset toggle.
That is the actual case, where are the guides to help the confused and bewildered navigate the mess wizbro has made of the tools on this site?
They leave that work to customers.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Of the almost 19 million members of DDB alone, I have only seen less than ten or so threads, populated by likely less than 30 individual accounts, not all of which find this change to be as worthy of this level of whining. You exist in a bubble. And not even a very large one. I would, charitable concede the moniker of "some" before I would the title of "many." And even that "some" is a rather small sample size, even accounting for any temporary crowd of folk whipped up by click-bait titles and disingenuous arguments from social media slop dealers.
I would contend that, to a vast.....VAST majority, this change is not even a blip on their radar. To a smaller many, this change is probably a positive change as the update takes into account many of the pain points of 5th Ed that were identified over the years. To a smaller group of some, this change is inconvenient at worst. To an even smaller group of some, this change is some incomprehensible affront to everything they claim to stand for? And to those of us who have to share a space with that last group, there is an even smaller group of few who have the willingness or energy to even bother engaging and attempting to enlighten and explain so as to maybe help make that shared space less of an eyesore to scroll.
I guess I don't understand why people are so against subscribers putting in a feature request. Nobody is suggesting Wiz doesn't have the right to do what they want with the rules, the site, etc.
DDB is primarily a toolset which draws data from different sources. We are subscribing to the toolset, not the data source. We have to purchase the data source separately. What we are asking for is a feature in the toolset to give us greater control over what data sources are used.
I'm not sure why people feel so threatened by this.
We have a feedback forum. This General Discussion area isn't going to move any needle anywhere.
Again I will say willful ignorance is the only way you can deduce you're claim, I will concede that the vocal group on either side is closer to 50% (and it is more likely to represent the whole than you would likely accept) than it diverges from that amount, and will still stand by my statement of "many are unhappy" with how wizbro has implemented the 24 rules on DDB. It is also becoming quite apparent that you are bordering on being pedantic in your argument if you continue to readily dismiss how many do view the choice to implement the 24 rules as wizbro has as a punishment, when an extremely easier and better (toggle for the 24 rule set) is an option. Do they have to do it? Unequivocally no, should they? Who knows. Is it a Beyond dumb? Possibly. Does it hurt the toolset? Absolutely!
As I have stated it is affecting my groups to the point "we" (not me) are going to leave D&D. IT is affecting me in that I spent thousands of real dollars and hours of time to get my friends to stop playing videogames and scrolling social media to play D&D, only to have wizbro spoke my wheels and send those players to D&D's competitors rendering the monies I have spent worthless. They would rather learn a new game and go pencil and paper than deal with the crap that is DDB currently. That friend is a reality for me. I honestly don't blame them, who could trust buying in to a platform that will just punish it's customers for not buying the new stuff, the IP holder just gets to change the rules anytime they need to meet profit goals and screw the people that actually play the game. I for one wish I hadn't spent a bent copper on DDB, but since they do not allow selling accounts, I guess I am screwed!
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I wish you well on your gaming journey and there will likely always be a place at the table for you should you return.
It is bad faith because it in no way was this the message I was communicating (which you obviously know) and your sarcastic dismissal was misrepresenting my message so you can stubbornly insist on being angry about something you have no control over. In effect, wasting your energy and proving my point anyway, as the ultimate message was that even if something is an improvement, change averse people will gnash their teeth and rage against it.
It is not a lack of faith in their product either, as even initial critics who have set their rage aside admit that it is in many ways a superior change to the rules. It is a lack of faith in you and how, really, are you proving that this lack of faith is misplaced? How is this whinging proving that if they simply gave you a toggle to switch off 2024, that you would come around to it? It is not just in their purview, it is in their business interest for WotC to prioritize and make ever-present the heavy investment they have made, which will drive play toward that investment. Even if you never buy a single 2024 product, simply playing on the site will put 2024 in front of you and your table so that one day, maybe even soon, someone at your table will ask 'hey, can we give this a try sometime?' It has already happened at two of the three tables I play at. They are not forcing you to do anything, so decidedly not a punishment unless we are so dramatic as to think a single scrolling of the mouse wheel is punishment, or seeing the Legacy tag on a spell to remind you that you are using outdated content is equivalent to a Vicious Mockery, but they are going to make their current product easier to use because it is stupid not to.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
I am all in on buying the '24 ruleset just as soon as they provide a complete set of rules, and give me an option to finish my current campaigns without chasing of the players at the tables I play at, no bad faith there.
The bad faith comes in when I am unable to finish the games started in GOODFAITH are no longer an option and players that are not invested in the "crap shoot" that is wizbro since the purchased DDB. If this is how wizbro intends to do business then I expect a mass exodus to their competitors which would be obvious as wizbro can not be trusted to let people finish campaigns started on this platform Beyond their next earnings report.
As I have stated many times, at my tables wizbro's choices on how they have chosen to implement the new rule set has both caused me to follow my groups to alternate platforms while also causing my purchases to be mothballed is not rhetoric, but indeed fact. There is no bad faith in this argument unless you place it there.
Place blame where it makes you warm and fuzzy!
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Your players are choosing to abandon your games. They are not being driven off by a Legacy tag. As I said, the conversation on whether to switch happened at two of the three games I am playing. None are making the switch, it was decided. I am playing 2014 rules in all three and dealing with the same absolutely trivial issues as everyone else in this thread is who says it is beyond the pale. Truly, if you think this is bad, let me sit you down and talk to you about electronic medical records (queue up the War Flashback Dog meme).
WotC is not stopping you from finishing your game, your players are and that is a table problem, not a company problem because literally every company would do the exact same thing if they could. Every one and I have a perfect reference to prove it below. There will be no mass exodus. I spend quite a bit of time on Demiplane and the 'tsunami of players' going to other systems during the OGL issue was more like a weak, wet fart.
Project Black Flag had its own third party crisis that caused people to exodus on their exodus and come limping back to DDB even more jaded than before. Look it up. BF turned out to be just a money grab and all the angry D&D players who wanted to stick it to WotC ended up being the suckers. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but real issues that people should be beating down the door of WotC executives get no face time (removing credits of people from past works got like, 1 page of posts and half were from usual WotC supporters) because D&D players can't come together where it counts; where things impact others instead of themselves. People will bellow about having to scroll their mouse wheel and they may even leave to other systems (I have quite a few I would love to recommend below, actually), but D&D players always come back. Only a handful of the people from the Changelog War are even rageposting still because, much like a selfish lover, most got what they wanted and ran for the door.
But really, I don't fault you for checking out other systems. I think you should. Everyone should. D&D is not the be-all, end-all and people thinking it is is, at least in my opinion, part of why people respond so dramatically when a company makes a sound business decision. Check out Dungeoneering, Mythcraft, Swords and Wizardry, Pathfinder, Starfinder, One Ring, It's Only Magic, Steel & Scale, Crown and Skull, Break!!, Into The Odd, DC 20, Eat the Reich, Bladerunner, Deathmatch Island, The Walking Dead, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, and many others. When the Cosmere RPG releases, I will probably never touch D&D again. There are so many awesome things out there and D&D 5e doesn't even crack my top 10; it's just the one that everyone knows.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
If they are successfully following their groups to alternative platforms, then their groups are clearly not rejecting them.
Not a single word talked about rejecting a person. I think there is some motivated reasoning at play here, but thank you for your insight.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
I have always considered them our games which is why I will change platforms when these tables are ready to, I will still play D&D, though I will not spend anymore money on the game until there is a toggle for the 24 stuff.
The players are abandoning D&D, not my games, and they are leaving over how the 24 rules are implemented in the character tools. I would prefer we stay with D&D, but after several discussions they simply will not continue to play a system they can not trust. They see only greed and punishment in the choices made with this roll out, I can't blame them it definitely has that feel. These are not players that care about the ogl and other debacles over the last couple of years, they are player that have a basic grasp of the rules and were just getting comfortable with the game and now are not having fun since the changes.
I still say a toggle would solve far more issues than it would create, it isn't like the new rules won't sell because there is a toggle to turn them off, though there are plenty of people that will not buy anything until there is a toggle from several threads on this site alone.
As for comparing D&D to the medical field I don't think D&D should head that direction at all, though this roll out has needlessly complicated things so I guess it tracks.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
This is the only thing I will address because I agree with it, just like I did when our conversation started. It does solve a lot of problems. More than it creates too. But it does not drive business toward their product, so while the number of problems solved vs created favors the toggle in a vacuum, the problems are weighted very differently in a practical business sense. The one problem it creates is a big problem; which is that players will use it and not, therefore, be incentivized to consume 2024 content of any kind. For this reason, I do not believe it will happen. It might, I just don't think it would be a good idea to count on them doing it. If that means you need a vacation from D&D, please see my above recommendations. There are things similar to D&D there and some things very different. All are worth trying.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
This marketing strategy chases off sales too, but I guess if there is no way to quantify the loss of business to the sales made from sheer aggravation it is hard to say it doesn't work, but just as hard to say it does. It is just sad to that as a business plan, aggravate the customer to get them to buy the product. That is a guaranteed way to lose some sales, a toggle may not push people to buy the new books, but it will chase far fewer away from it. I guess I just remember the days when the product was so good you just had to let people know it was available and they would buy it, this new marketing strategy of aggravate until they rage buy or quit is very odd, but D&D is not the only place it is used. It is very unnecessary if you have a really good product. This type of marketing has many parallels in human behaviour and not very many are positive.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
That's a point I made previously... wearing down your customers until they buy your new product is not a great marketing strategy. I would think this would have the opposite of the intended outcome.
I would love to have a toggle that hides all legacy content. It could go next to the toggle that hides all 2024 content. Leave the toggles alone and you get to see all of the content. Seems simple enough to me.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It looks like we are stuck with this style of bully 'em marketing as long as they think it is working, so until enough people vote with their wallets this is what marketing will be here. Rage quit, or rage buy.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Or....and hear me out here......maybe don't just focus on the rage dichotomy? People can quit or buy predicated on a wide range of feelings.