I agree that taking HP damage seem strange from a magical bloodline. But pushing yourself might not, so a level of exhaustion for half your spell points rounded down makes some sense. 

I believe

Int is the left-brain, rational "you will not out wit me" save.

Wis is the right-brain, analytical  "this doesn't feel right" save.  It involves non-linear thinking, no one answer, and dozens of variables and rules of thumb.

Cha is the force of personality save.  It is the ability to recover from a faux pas.

Let's be realistic here, in this random tangent.

Wisdom is the "Willpower" save not for any actual logical reason, but because it inherited the "Will" save that resisted all mental effects back when the game only HAD three saves - Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.  There's no deeply thought out, good and proper reason for Wisdom to be the "Resists ALL forms of coercion, domination, paralysis, entrapment, and everything else" save, and for Intelligence and Charisma saves to be more-or-less nonexistent.  This is an artefact of the bloated history of D&D bogging down game design, not of any sort of deeply subtle statement of the various roles of the various attributes. 

Any roles assigned to attributes in this game are assigned after the attributes were fixed in place.  The fact that Wisdom as a core ability score makes no god damned sense doesn't matter - D&D has always had a Wisdom score and thus it must always have a Wisdom score, long past the point where keeping it does the game more harm than good.

ANYWAYS

*    *    *

The overall consensus here (such as it is and what there is of it) seems to be that the sorcerer should have greater access to its Metamagic feature.  The level 20 capstone of recovering four sorcery points on a short rest is wildly insufficient considering the innumerable other drawbacks of the class, and the sorcerer in turn does not get enough choices of Metamagic and does not get them early enough.  The sorcerer's drastically limited known spells count also forces sorcerer players to pick between spells that are thematic and cool for their Origin/character background and spells which are useful to the party.

Is this about right?  If so, what do we do about it?  Are we looking at a 'Sorcerer Revised', or would variant class features a'la the November UA be sufficient to fix it?  Keeping in mind the sharp limitations on variant class features.

Quote from Wren_the_Munificent >>

I believe

Int is the left-brain, rational "you will not out wit me" save.

Wis is the right-brain, analytical  "this doesn't feel right" save.  It involves non-linear thinking, no one answer, and dozens of variables and rules of thumb.

Cha is the force of personality save.  It is the ability to recover from a faux pas.

 

 First off, that whole Left-Brain/Right-Brain thing doesn't exist, there is no correlation between what side of your brain you use more, and if you're antisocial, or anything else. You use both sides of the brain for nearly the same things. The whole idea of it is incorrect. 

You will not outwit me, definitely is an intelligence ability.

This doesn't feel right, is also very wisdom-y, but I feel like the spells that require Wisdom saves are all more of a "I cannot be mentally-changed" ability, Hold Person, Viscous Mockery, all of those spells require Wisdom saves.

Charisma isn't the force of personality, Wizards with low Charisma have just as much of a personality as Warlocks or Paladins, but I think it is more of a "I cannot be convinced" save.

Quote from Wren_the_Munificent >>

Of course, if that were true, then everyone with an 18 Cha would be able to cast Sorcerer spells.  Just like Wizards don't get their spells from their Int, Sorcerers don't get their spells from their Cha.  They get it from somewhere else.  Cha just helps them use it.  But, even a character with a Cha of 9 could be s sorcerer - not a very good sorcerer, but they could still be a sorcerer.

 The mental scores are not the originator of the Warlocks, Clerics, Wizards spells, I don't think anyone was saying that, these scores; Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma, they are what magnify their spellcasting. The higher scores you have based on your class, the more effective your spells can be. It doesn't just help them use it, it makes them better, more effective. Sorcerers get their spells from how they are different from other people of their races, effected by extraplanar/arcane powers. Warlocks get their power from their spells. Yes, a wizard can have a high CHA, and not be able to cast warlock spells, because that isn't where they get their spells.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Let's be realistic here, in this random tangent.

Wisdom is the "Willpower" save not for any actual logical reason, but because it inherited the "Will" save that resisted all mental effects back when the game only HAD three saves - Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.  There's no deeply thought out, good and proper reason for Wisdom to be the "Resists ALL forms of coercion, domination, paralysis, entrapment, and everything else" save, and for Intelligence and Charisma saves to be more-or-less nonexistent.  This is an artefact of the bloated history of D&D bogging down game design, not of any sort of deeply subtle statement of the various roles of the various attributes. 

Any roles assigned to attributes in this game are assigned after the attributes were fixed in place.  The fact that Wisdom as a core ability score makes no god damned sense doesn't matter - D&D has always had a Wisdom score and thus it must always have a Wisdom score, long past the point where keeping it does the game more harm than good.

ANYWAYS

*    *    *

The overall consensus here (such as it is and what there is of it) seems to be that the sorcerer should have greater access to its Metamagic feature.  The level 20 capstone of recovering four sorcery points on a short rest is wildly insufficient considering the innumerable other drawbacks of the class, and the sorcerer in turn does not get enough choices of Metamagic and does not get them early enough.  The sorcerer's drastically limited known spells count also forces sorcerer players to pick between spells that are thematic and cool for their Origin/character background and spells which are useful to the party.

Is this about right?  If so, what do we do about it?  Are we looking at a 'Sorcerer Revised', or would variant class features a'la the November UA be sufficient to fix it?  Keeping in mind the sharp limitations on variant class features.

 I think we can all admit that the Class Feature Variants was a way for Wizards to fix the Ranger, and other classes, without having to rewrite all the classes, and I think that this is a good way to do it. If they focused a UA Feature Variants on the Sorcerer, they will be able to fix the sorcerer, if they do it right.

I think most of us agree, the Sorcerer should have more Sorcery points in some way, their capstone should be fixed, and they should have access to more spells, and more unique spells (though it isn''t required).

Is that about it?

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Is this about right?  If so, what do we do about it?  Are we looking at a 'Sorcerer Revised', or would variant class features a'la the November UA be sufficient to fix it?  Keeping in mind the sharp limitations on variant class features.

How would Wizards go about implementing an official change like that? We don't have any precedent other than the multiple UA Ranger-focused tuneups.

My guess is, to avoid "invalidating" anything in the PHB, they'd prefer to present them as variant rules, which opens the door for DMs to allow or disallow the aforementioned much-needed adjustments. Which is undesirable at best - but it might be the most we can get.

I'd prefer (though this is probably unrealistic) a complete errata that is reflected in new print runs of the PHB and could also be published separately, physically, as its own product (for those who have physical copies that won't simply update on DDB and don't want to buy a new, "more correct" version).

Wizards will never print anything that invalidates/replaces PHB content until and unless we get the extremely unlikely event that they do a 5.5e and redo the PHB and the DMG entirely.  Which is sorely needed but wildly unlikely to happen.  They simply flat refuse to tell everybody that they should buy a new book, which is bass-ackwards reasonable because the books are so intensely expensive.

The issue, methinks is that the Alternate Class Features presented in the original November UA requires either a one-for-one, self-contained switch of ONE base (i.e. non-subclass) class feature for ONE new base class feature, or a simple bolt-on augmentation of an existing feature that is not level dependent.  

Sorcerers...do not have base class features.  There is nothing to "alternate" with, sorcerers are nothing but a framework onto which spellcasting and Metamagic is bolted.  What few funky class features they get are all subclass-based, which means no dice for the ACF UA.  New features would need to be plugged into the sorcerer progression without replacing or augmenting different features, which is outside the scope of the UA document as given.

Which is why I'm torn.  Alternate class features is a thing that might actually happen in a future book, something we could actually get, but the sorcerer can't really benefit from them as written.  It's obnoxious, and I'll freely admit that I don't know the ideal solution.

LeviRocks, it isn't my intention to get on a tangent about the validity in psychology of left brain vs. right brain.  I use that model because we all understand it.  It is a really handy short-hand for a fairly complicated idea.  If you prefer, we can call it linear vs. non-linear thinking.

Wisdom saves are, I believe, about realizing that you are being influenced.  I don't see that as the same thing as solving a puzzle (that is, whether you are being outwitted).  Wisdom involves dozens of variables, rules of thumb rather than rules of logic, multiple starting points in solving a problem, and no objectively "best" solution.  It is being able to take changes in the sounds of people and animals around you, changes in the way the air smells, changes in all of that and more and reaching a conclusion that isn't immediately obvious and which you may not even be able to put into words how you found your answer because everything depends on everything else.

Int hits a target no one else can hit.  Wis hits a target no one else can see.

Charisma is being able to recover from a faux pas.

Well said, Yurei. I don't know how exactly it could be done - but I look forward to them maybe, hopefully, trying.

Quote from LeviRocks >>

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Let's be realistic here, in this random tangent.

Wisdom is the "Willpower" save not for any actual logical reason, but because it inherited the "Will" save that resisted all mental effects back when the game only HAD three saves - Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.  There's no deeply thought out, good and proper reason for Wisdom to be the "Resists ALL forms of coercion, domination, paralysis, entrapment, and everything else" save, and for Intelligence and Charisma saves to be more-or-less nonexistent.  This is an artefact of the bloated history of D&D bogging down game design, not of any sort of deeply subtle statement of the various roles of the various attributes. 

Any roles assigned to attributes in this game are assigned after the attributes were fixed in place.  The fact that Wisdom as a core ability score makes no god damned sense doesn't matter - D&D has always had a Wisdom score and thus it must always have a Wisdom score, long past the point where keeping it does the game more harm than good.

ANYWAYS

*    *    *

The overall consensus here (such as it is and what there is of it) seems to be that the sorcerer should have greater access to its Metamagic feature.  The level 20 capstone of recovering four sorcery points on a short rest is wildly insufficient considering the innumerable other drawbacks of the class, and the sorcerer in turn does not get enough choices of Metamagic and does not get them early enough.  The sorcerer's drastically limited known spells count also forces sorcerer players to pick between spells that are thematic and cool for their Origin/character background and spells which are useful to the party.

Is this about right?  If so, what do we do about it?  Are we looking at a 'Sorcerer Revised', or would variant class features a'la the November UA be sufficient to fix it?  Keeping in mind the sharp limitations on variant class features.

 I think we can all admit that the Class Feature Variants was a way for Wizards to fix the Ranger, and other classes, without having to rewrite all the classes, and I think that this is a good way to do it. If they focused a UA Feature Variants on the Sorcerer, they will be able to fix the sorcerer, if they do it right.

I think most of us agree, the Sorcerer should have more Sorcery points in some way, their capstone should be fixed, and they should have access to more spells, and more unique spells (though it isn''t required).

Is that about it?

 I don’t even think they need more/new spells. If they just got more sorcery points and Metamagic I think they would be fine.

On the subject of rewriting class features, there's something that has always bothered me about the interaction between Font of Magic and Metamagic.  You get Font of Magic first, giving you Sorcery Points.  But.....  you have nothing to spend them on, which means your only real use at level 2 is to convert both of them into a 1st level Spell Slot.  It's not until level 3 you can actually use them, when you get your first Metamagic options.  While you CAN use Font of Magic to consumes Sorcery Points for Spell Slots and vice versa, the 2 Class Features need each other to function as they should to make the class "go".  Because of that, they should be given to the class together.  The closest analog I can see at a cursory glance would be the Monk's Ki points.  Imagine if you got Ki points at level 2, but you had to wait until level 3 to use Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind.

Well if you think about plenty of classes(warlock and cleric for example) use exclusive subclasses with them the classes would become very weak. 

Personally, as soon as my Sorcerer gets to 18, he's taking 2 levels in Warlock. The capstone at 20 is kinda "meh" as most classes are (especially Wizard) and the 2 levels of warlock are much better. I took one level of rogue for my Wizard for his 20th level for expertise as that's much better than 2 level 3 spells, completely dumb. The lvl 18 of Wizard is super amazing, especially as an abjuration wizard (infinite shield casting to regen his ward and unlimited misty step), whereas the Sorcerer lvl 18 pales in comparison.

There can be tweaks for sure, but the sorcerer is far from broken. See Ranger for that mess lol

While sorcerers are not weak they are certainly no where near as strong as they need to be to be viable against the wizard, the class they are naturally inclined to be compared to. I think making sorcery points refresh on a short rest but limit metamagic to sorcerer spells only. That plus the class variants and two metamagic every time you get them instead of one and you have an actual alternative to wizard instead of what we currently have. I actually feel like it would solve all of their problems and most of their multiclassing problems (no quickened EB for example but they can still quicken a fireball from the sorcerer spell list if they'd like to.) 

Bait, lol.

Play a wizard for more spell versatility, rituals, and slot recovery.

Play a sorcerer for metamagic.

Both are good in different ways.  The only real problem with sorcerers is if a person thinks he or she needs more spells to fit a theme then the sorcerer might not fit a theme for that person.  

I'm playing a divine soul sorcerer and I really like the expanded spell book. Also the subtle spell metamagic is op just cast silence, cast spell while watching the enemy spell casters fail

Quote from jacobbeaudoin >>

While sorcerers are not weak they are certainly no where near as strong as they need to be to be viable against the wizard, the class they are naturally inclined to be compared to. I think making sorcery points refresh on a short rest but limit metamagic to sorcerer spells only. That plus the class variants and two metamagic every time you get them instead of one and you have an actual alternative to wizard instead of what we currently have. I actually feel like it would solve all of their problems and most of their multiclassing problems (no quickened EB for example but they can still quicken a fireball from the sorcerer spell list if they'd like to.) 

 I prefer the sorcerer to the wizard, so I'd disagree with you about viability.

Sorcerers need more spells known.  There's absolutely no excuse for a primary spellcasting class to know fewer spells than it has levels at any point.

They also need more sorcery points because far too many of their class features are dependent on using sorcery points- you want to make extra spell slots, but oh, you burned a few sorcery points using metamagic, and now look, you don't have enough to make use of any of your bloodline powers.

Furthermore, I'd say that sorcerers ought to get more metamagic, because frankly learning two metamagic tricks at third level and then having to wait all the way to 10th level before getting anything more is far too limiting.