What I find interesting is that the Echo actually occupies its space. As far as I know that is not true for Spiritual Weapons, Flaming Spheres etc.
To me personally the Echo sounds like a creature in everything but name. Even the fluff text suggests that it is actually you from a different timeline and you can pretty much switch between these timelines at will. (With certain restrictions in the Action Economy).
As a DM I would probably rule that it does work for flanking, since the enemy has no way to tell where the attack will come from, so they are at a significant disadvantage. It doesn't work RAW, but imho it makes sense.
"You would not consider a wall an ally" You ever watch boxing and see a boxer get trapped in a corner? Ever trip over a log or uneven flooring? Terrain is very much considered an ally to combatants. Pretty certain Leonidas would not have lasted as long as he did if not for the terrain. That said, I know the rules of the game don't really take into account such things, but in combat I certainly would not want to be trapped between a wall and a monster.
The rules of the game absolutely encompass these things. Terrain features block line of sight and effect, hamper movement, cause damage in some cases, create chokepoints, etc.
Terrain is not an ally for the simple reason that it is neutral. That corner in the boxing ring is an equal threat (or opportunity) to both boxers. A pool of water could drown me, or it could save me from dying of thirst - so it it my ally or enemy? It's neither... because the water doesn't care. An ally needs to be able to pick a side, otherwise it's just a tool that either side could exploit.
The flanking rule by itself is "At DM's choice", so yes, allowing the Echo to grant flanking would also be DM's choice.
The Echo Knight is powerful enough as it is without allowing it to also give itself free advantage on every single attack it ever makes. It does not need this rule, and frankly I'd be looking askance at any player pushing hard for it. Especially if they're not a Xhorhassian warrior, but are instead a Vhuman Great Polearm Muenster munchkin meta toadstool.
The flanking rule by itself is "At DM's choice", so yes, allowing the Echo to grant flanking would also be DM's choice.
The Echo Knight is powerful enough as it is without allowing it to also give itself free advantage on every single attack it ever makes. It does not need this rule, and frankly I'd be looking askance at any player pushing hard for it. Especially if they're not a Xhorhassian warrior, but are instead a Vhuman Great Polearm Muenster munchkin meta toadstool.
Yea - I mean - put it this way - the Samurai subclass can give itself Advantage on all attacks for their turn 3 times per long rest as a Bonus Action. If you allow the Echo to grant flanking then an Echo Knight can do it every single turn forever. Too OP in my mind.
Not to mention that the Echo can make an extra attack as well that the Samurai can't (until much later levels and sacrificing advantage on an attack to get it).
The echo is definitely an ally. It has AC, health, and can provoke AoO...
"If you're an Echo Knight in D&D, the magical echo you create is an image of yourself that occupies its space. It isn't a creature. If this translucent, gray image were meant to be a creature, the rule would say so. #DnD" - From Jeremy Crawford.
"Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank." - From Matt Mercer
Ok. it doesn't flank. but it gets the benefit of you flanking with it. how could it not
It doesn't get the benefit of you flanking with it. "When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy, and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy's space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy."
Like we've covered many times in this thread, an Echo isn't a creature, so they can't flank.
Ok. it doesn't flank. but it gets the benefit of you flanking with it. how could it not
Because the flanking rule requires both participants to be creatures.
When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
Since the Echo isn't a creature it can neither grant flanking nor benefit from it.
I would disagree with your ruling that only the echo should get disadvantage. I think it should be both or neither because if the echo has advantage and the fighter does not, than the fighter would trade in all of his attacks and make the echo attack every time with advantage.
I would disagree with your ruling that only the echo should get disadvantage. I think it should be both or neither because if the echo has advantage and the fighter does not, than the fighter would trade in all of his attacks and make the echo attack every time with advantage.
Who said the echo would get disadvantage?
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'Threat' is not a requirement for flanking, it's that you and another creature are on opposite sides of the enemy. It also can't take opportunity attacks, it has a special ability that let's you take opportunity attacks from the echo's space.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
The echo is not an ally because it is not a creature (objects and effects cannot be allies), thus it cannot flank
'Threat' is not a requirement for flanking, it's that you and another creature are on opposite sides of the enemy. It also can't take opportunity attacks, it has a special ability that let's you take opportunity attacks from the echo's space.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
The echo is not an ally because it is not a creature (objects and effects cannot be allies), thus it cannot flank
Along with this part, it is worth noting that all the attacks are made by you, through the Echo. The Echo only gets 1 attack if you also attack, and that ability is limited to a small number of times per long rest.
Ok so if you have 2 attacks, and you are 'flanking' with echo. Use the first attack with the echo from behind, and then the second attack from 'player's opposite with advantage. I agree that it shouldnt get auto flanking but if you've established the echo as a threat from behind first I believe the other attack should get advantage.
RAW i would agree with you but conceptually speaking what Ichigo9182 says makes a lot of sense.
Scenario is a goblin fighter. he's facing the player and the player makes an echo behind the goblin. the echo swings at the goblin and then the goblin turns to defend the attack and then the player attacks.
you don't think this would provide an advantage in combat? i do
Arguing intent is all well and good, but you also need to consider the intent behind class balance. As others have pointed out, a flanking echo provides an advantage far beyond comparable subclasses such as Samurai. Echo knight is totally viable and competitive without giving out free flanking like candy, so in the interest of game design it really shouldn't.
What I find interesting is that the Echo actually occupies its space. As far as I know that is not true for Spiritual Weapons, Flaming Spheres etc.
To me personally the Echo sounds like a creature in everything but name. Even the fluff text suggests that it is actually you from a different timeline and you can pretty much switch between these timelines at will. (With certain restrictions in the Action Economy).
As a DM I would probably rule that it does work for flanking, since the enemy has no way to tell where the attack will come from, so they are at a significant disadvantage. It doesn't work RAW, but imho it makes sense.
The rules of the game absolutely encompass these things. Terrain features block line of sight and effect, hamper movement, cause damage in some cases, create chokepoints, etc.
Terrain is not an ally for the simple reason that it is neutral. That corner in the boxing ring is an equal threat (or opportunity) to both boxers. A pool of water could drown me, or it could save me from dying of thirst - so it it my ally or enemy? It's neither... because the water doesn't care. An ally needs to be able to pick a side, otherwise it's just a tool that either side could exploit.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
We have to wait for sage advice, till there will be only expeculation.
But i imagine Crawford saying "At the dm choice"...
The flanking rule by itself is "At DM's choice", so yes, allowing the Echo to grant flanking would also be DM's choice.
The Echo Knight is powerful enough as it is without allowing it to also give itself free advantage on every single attack it ever makes. It does not need this rule, and frankly I'd be looking askance at any player pushing hard for it. Especially if they're not a Xhorhassian warrior, but are instead a Vhuman Great Polearm Muenster munchkin meta toadstool.
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Yea - I mean - put it this way - the Samurai subclass can give itself Advantage on all attacks for their turn 3 times per long rest as a Bonus Action. If you allow the Echo to grant flanking then an Echo Knight can do it every single turn forever. Too OP in my mind.
Not to mention that the Echo can make an extra attack as well that the Samurai can't (until much later levels and sacrificing advantage on an attack to get it).
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The echo is definitely an ally. It has AC, health, and can provoke AoO...
"If you're an Echo Knight in D&D, the magical echo you create is an image of yourself that occupies its space. It isn't a creature. If this translucent, gray image were meant to be a creature, the rule would say so. #DnD" - From Jeremy Crawford.
"Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank." - From Matt Mercer
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It can't flank. It can sneak attack from the "if an enemy is within 5 feet of the creature you're attacking, you can sneak attack".
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Ok. it doesn't flank. but it gets the benefit of you flanking with it. how could it not
It doesn't get the benefit of you flanking with it. "When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy, and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy's space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy."
Like we've covered many times in this thread, an Echo isn't a creature, so they can't flank.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Because the flanking rule requires both participants to be creatures.
Since the Echo isn't a creature it can neither grant flanking nor benefit from it.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I would disagree with your ruling that only the echo should get disadvantage. I think it should be both or neither because if the echo has advantage and the fighter does not, than the fighter would trade in all of his attacks and make the echo attack every time with advantage.
Who said the echo would get disadvantage?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Comes down to the fact that the echo is a threat. It can take opportunity attacks and has AC. It is just as threatening as the fighter.
'Threat' is not a requirement for flanking, it's that you and another creature are on opposite sides of the enemy. It also can't take opportunity attacks, it has a special ability that let's you take opportunity attacks from the echo's space.
The echo is not an ally because it is not a creature (objects and effects cannot be allies), thus it cannot flank
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Along with this part, it is worth noting that all the attacks are made by you, through the Echo. The Echo only gets 1 attack if you also attack, and that ability is limited to a small number of times per long rest.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Ok so if you have 2 attacks, and you are 'flanking' with echo. Use the first attack with the echo from behind, and then the second attack from 'player's opposite with advantage. I agree that it shouldnt get auto flanking but if you've established the echo as a threat from behind first I believe the other attack should get advantage.
Threat is irrelevant. The Echo is not a creature nor an ally, it is a class feature.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
RAW i would agree with you but conceptually speaking what Ichigo9182 says makes a lot of sense.
Scenario is a goblin fighter. he's facing the player and the player makes an echo behind the goblin. the echo swings at the goblin and then the goblin turns to defend the attack and then the player attacks.
you don't think this would provide an advantage in combat? i do
Arguing intent is all well and good, but you also need to consider the intent behind class balance. As others have pointed out, a flanking echo provides an advantage far beyond comparable subclasses such as Samurai. Echo knight is totally viable and competitive without giving out free flanking like candy, so in the interest of game design it really shouldn't.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm