Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
Limit the INT swap to finesse weapons and armor swap to once a day, Mage Armor as written and I'd probably be ok with it in my game. I still think you are drastically underestimating the power of "sub your main stat with this other stat." If that was a feat it would certainly not be one of the less powerful ones and it would find its way into lots of builds. Stat matching is one of the major limitations of the MC system and this would open up a very large can of worms.
I mentioned plate armor. My point is, this is standard equipment that becomes available at the lowest levels, that a Strength Fighter can expect in most campaign settings. Forumers objected that plate armor isnt available during character creation. I later pointed out that chainmail is available during character creation. Thus Strength chainmail armor 16 AC is exactly equal to the Intelligence Mage Armor 16 AC. Thus, there is no Monty Haul. The creation of a Strength Fighter already comes with AC 16. The Mage Armor swap is balanced during character creation.
The plate armor Fighter sucks at stealth. The response that I gave was that the Mage Armor Fighter wont be so great at it either, "mediocre".
Having to roll at disadvantage (plate) and rolling with no disadvantage is yet another big distinction you're failing to accept in your insistence that you presented a thoughtful option and not a power up above and beyond the rest of the Fighter class's first level iterations.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Limit the INT swap to finesse weapons and armor swap to once a day, Mage Armor as written and I'd probably be ok with it in my game.
I still think you are drastically underestimating the power of "sub your main stat with this other stat." If that was a feat it would certainly not be one of the less powerful ones and it would find its way into lots of builds. Stat matching is one of the major limitations of the MC system and this would open up a very large can of worms.
ScatterBraind,
I am interested in switching the Intelligence to finesse weapons. This continues the possibility of dumping Dex. It leaves the door open if someone wants to invest in Strength. Altho I want to see Two-Ability-Dependence, I also want to see builds with Strength as an appealing tertiary.
Flavor turns out to be interfere with the finesse mechanic, namely the longsword. It drives me crazy that the longsword (or rather the normal sword) fails to be a finesse weapon. This relates to the high elf problem to where the longsword proficiency fails to synergize with Dex. If there is such thing as a "sword" (martial weapon, 1d8 slash/pierce, finesse, nonversatile), then I would happily switch the Int to finesse weapons only. I want to see a normal sword in the hand of the Eldritch Knight, flavorwise. Besides that, I find it coherent if telekinesis works more effectively with finesse agile weapons, rather than unwieldly heavy weapons.
Regarding the Mage Armor, I believe it is ok for the Fighter class to have nice things. In the case of Eldritch Knight, nice things includes magical things. The difference between Mage Armor for 8 hours versus Mage Armor for 24 hours is tolerable, and the at-will always-on, any style, is for me an inspired aspect that makes it fun. Mage Armor is nonbroken, well within a feat, and to over-nerf it for an unsatisfactory reason would be bad design.
So, the Mage Armor is fine and can stay. But I will switch the Intelligence to finesse weapons only. I might specifically let the style treat the longsword as a finesse weapon.
MidnightPlat, maybe you can convince me otherwise, but I honestly dont care if someone is average at Stealth, any more than I care if they are average at Perception, average at Slight of Hand, average at Animal Handling, or average at any other skill. To argue that being average at a skill is somehow problematic is less compelling.
Pangurjan, a vague assertion about overpower without proof feels less helpful. For example, if you did dpr calculations for each tier and demonstrated that the Fighting Style was dealing as much damage as the Paladin is, that would get my attention. But of course, such damage seems unlikely. I have a good intuition for structures and systems, and as long as I am not overlooking some specific problem, I am confident that the Fighting Style as it was written balances fine. If you think of a specific problem, and can demonstrate its disruptiveness, that is helpful.
Force Armor Fighting Style You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you can use Intelligence for finesse weapons instead of Dexterity, and treat the longsword as a finesse weapon. You know one cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast the cantrip at will as an innate spell without spell components.
MidnightPlat, maybe you can convince me otherwise, but I honestly dont care if someone is average at Stealth, any more than I care if they are average at Perception, average at Slight of Hand, average at Animal Handling, or average at any other skill. To argue that being average at a skill is somehow problematic is less compelling.
You're ostrich-heading and misrepresenting criticism throughout this thread. To address your poor summation of my unaddressed objection, I wasn't talking about average. A fighter who goes to your temple on Coruscant walks out as Padawan with the boon of Mage Armor's AC. When that fighter roles for stealth they get to make a straight roll. A similarly AC'd fighter lacking the gift you give to players who embrace your homebrew needs to worry about taking the same roll at disadvantage. That's just one of the faults of your fighting style there on the surface. You're asking for deep mathematical objections ... but to all who've objected to the style such deep dives aren't worth it because the faults are sitting right there in front of your readers. You don't want to recognize that, and that's fine; but it's clear the overwhelming number of readers of this thread see it as a bad idea. You don't need to, you can privilege your ideas in your game and your players can go along with your genius or struggle with playing conventional characters who don't elect to take your options.
@Gvarayi, I'm just letting you know that I'm heading out of the thread. You have obviously made up your mind, even though the vast majority of people in this thread have warned you that this Fighting Style is OP, so there's no point in my arguing any longer. Have a good day, and I'll see you around in other threads.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Pangurjan, a vague assertion about overpower without proof feels less helpful. For example, if you did dpr calculations for each tier and demonstrated that the Fighting Style was dealing as much damage as the Paladin is, that would get my attention. But of course, such damage seems unlikely. I have a good intuition for structures and systems, and as long as I am not overlooking some specific problem, I am confident that the Fighting Style as it was written balances fine. If you think of a specific problem, and can demonstrate its disruptiveness, that is helpful.
The obvious issue has been mentioned multiple times: you're turning the concept of a warrior with arcane spellcasting from three ability dependency into two ability dependency.
An Arcane Archer with this fighting style and starting out with the standard array can possibly have his Int maxed at 20 by level 5 if he's got some magical buff, when he gets his first extra attack, and let's say his secondary stat, Con, is still at 14 with the tertiary one at possibly also at 14 and going into Dex or Wis depending on whether the player values Dex saves + initiative higher than Wis saves or vice versa. Or it goes somewhere else for flavour or liking Cha-based skills or something, doesn't really matter. He's got a magical +1 longbow. AC is 18, attack bonus is +9, regular damage per hit is 1d8+6 (from a lovely range of 150/600) and the save DC for his 2/short rest (so let's say 6/day) Arcane Shots is a highly respectable 16. He's got his extra attack, his Action Surge, Second Wind and a cantrip.
That same Arcane Archer taking the archery fighting style instead will have 17 AC, a significantly better Dex save and initiative, an attack bonus of +11, same damage, but the save DC for his Arcane Shots will be a pretty underwhelming 13. He might of course elect to not max out Dex and go for an 18 there and a 16 in Int, but that'll cut down his AC further in comparison, take that save and initiative difference down a point, reduce his damage per shot and that DC 14 save would still not be anything to write home about.
Both of them pick up their 2nd ASI at level 6. For me, it's really hard to argue the 2nd archer's edge in Dex save, initiative and attack is even remotely as good as having a save DC that's actually difficult to beat.
A Paladin wants Str, Cha and Con. At level 5 we're looking at 18/16/14 with a similar magical buff of +1 to his preferred ability. Assuming a +1 longsword and shield combo and I'll throw in the plate armour, AC is 20 (but in melee), Dex save and initiative will be in the basement, attack bonus is +8, regular damage is 1d8+7, and he's got 6 spell slots/day to smite or cast a spell with (if smiting, +2d8 damage four times and +3d8 twice, more if against undead/fiend). Various Oath benefits might also help.
Most of the Arcane Shots above offer +2d6 (Force rather than Radiant) damage + one of various effects, or does stuff like Banishing the target for a turn. I'm sure you'll argue otherwise, but personally I'll take the archer every day here due to the range advantage - particularly with the Action Surge partially making up for the damage deficit. And that's with a not very highly rated Fighter subclass vs a Paladin. Which brings me to:
A Fighter 1/Wizard (Bladesinger) 4 using a similar setup, without using his Bladesong, will have an AC of 18, attack bonus +9, regular damage per hit 1d8+6 (no extra attack though, at least not for another level), spell attack bonus +8 and spell save DC 16. During his Bladesong that AC goes up to 23 and his concentration checks get a +5 (if Fighter was his first level taken, Con will be a proficient save as well). If he has Shield, he can use that 4 times a day (not counting Arcane Recovery) to bump his AC up for a round with a reaction after knowing if that will be enough to turn a hit into a miss. He's also got 3/day of such staples as Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness or (See) Invisibility; if that Shield isn't needed too often there are spells that can turn an entire encounter like Sleep or Tasha's Hideous Laughter, along with the usual suspects wizards typically adore; and then there's unlimited cantrips, including True Strike (which one level from now he can cast instead of taking a second attack). You're basically looking at a Wizard that delays his spell progression by one level in order to be able to reliably contribute in combat even while saving his spells and with relatively few worries over being squishy. To put this even more in perspective, a Bladesinger gets Int to melee damage (just damage, not attack rolls) at level 14. You'd give them that and more with a single Fighter level or a feat. It doesn't even compare. Heck, I might consider this for any wizard even without ever wanting to go into melee period. Take a longbow with me for shits and giggles and call it good.
And all of that (apologies for all who read that wall of text) isn't even all that pertinent. It doesn't really matter whether this allows arcane builds to outdamage a paladin or some other apples vs oranges comparison. The huge red flag is that it's a no brainer, absolutely significantly better option than not taking it for several subclasses. That alone should already tell you it's too good.
Force Armor Fighting Style You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you know the Elf Sword cantrip and one other cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast these cantrips at will as an innate spell without spell components. Intelligence is the spellcasting ability.
ELF SWORD Transmutation cantrip Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: Self Components: M (longsword) Duration: 1 minute You guide your longsword attacks telekinetically. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls using a longsword. It becomes a magical weapon if it is not one already.
Note. The Elf Sword cantrip is roughly identical to Shillelagh, except dealing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
The proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors (about a feat on the weak side) swaps for the Mage Armor (about a feat on the strong side).
The Fighting Style (about a feat) is two cantrips (each is treated as if a half feat, but is on the weak side, closer to a skill proficiency in worth).
Any high elf can gain the Elf Sword cantrip, by means of the high elf cantrip trait, and is already proficient with the longsword.
Force Armor Fighting Style You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you know the Elf Sword cantrip and one other cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast these cantrips at will as an innate spell without spell components. Intelligence is the spellcasting ability.
Still too good. Get rid of the INT instead of DEX for AC and maybe. I realize you want to get rid of the multiple attribute dependency but this is way too good. Also, get rid of the cantrips. If you keep the cantrips, 100000% get rid of eldritch blast. That's just silly. There is absolutely no reason to give an arcane based character access to a warlock only cantrip.
I still just want to point out that the closest comparable fighting style is Druidic Fighting and all it does is give 2 cantrips. Yours also gives 2 cantrips (good) but also a ton of other stuff.
ELF SWORD Transmutation cantrip Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: Self Components: M (longsword) Duration: 1 minute You guide your longsword attacks telekinetically. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls using a longsword. It becomes a magical weapon if it is not one already.
Note. The Elf Sword cantrip is roughly identical to Shillelagh, except dealing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
Shillelagh is limited to Clubs (1d4) and Quarterstaffs (1d6 versatile). This is without question stronger than Shillelagh which by many accounts is already among the best cantrips in the game. Longswords (1d8 versatile) are not only a better base weapon, but there are also much stronger magic longswords compared to magic clubs or quarterstaffs (for whacking).
The proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors (about a feat on the weak side) swaps for the Mage Armor (about a feat on the strong side).
The Fighting Style (about a feat) is two cantrips (each is treated as if a half feat, but is on the weak side, closer to a skill proficiency in worth).
Any high elf can gain the Elf Sword cantrip, by means of the high elf cantrip trait, and is already proficient with the longsword.
Let's compare your homebrew fighting style with that of an existing fighting style (Druidic Warrior).
Your Fighting Style:
Gain Mage Armor at the cost of losing heavy and medium armors.
You can cast Mage Armor as a reaction.
Can use INT instead of DEX for determining AC.
Gain 2 cantrips from any list. One of those cantrips is a new homebrew cantrip that is a better Shillelagh.
Druidic Warrior:
Gain 2 cantrips from the druid spell list.
Do you honestly think your homebrew fighting style is comparable in power to Druidic Warrior? Or Archery? Or Defense? Or whatever else?
1) The Elf Sword cantrip is roughly identical to Shillelagh, except dealing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
2) The proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors (about a feat on the weak side) swaps for the Mage Armor (about a feat on the strong side).
3) The Fighting Style (about a feat) is two cantrips (each is treated as if a half feat, but is on the weak side, closer to a skill proficiency in worth).
1) ... except Shillelagh is restricted to Druids, who are unable to use their spellcasting ability for AC. That context makes it not identical, not even roughly.
2) It’s not an even swap if you don’t want both equally. You can try to claim they’re both worth about a feat, but that doesn’t mean they’re equally valuable for any given character. A non-Dex Fighter giving up his medium and heavy armor proficiencies for Keen Mind isn’t making a fair swap, to his great detriment. A Dex Fighter giving up those same proficiencies for any of maybe half a dozen feats is arguably committing daylight robbery, on the other hand. You’re creating a false equivalence by not acknowledging that a feat’s value is determined by it being something you get, not something you give up. You have to give up an ASI or part of your variant human racial package to get a feat, you can’t cherry pick a couple of abilities you don’t care for anyway to “pay” for a feat instead.
3) Even accepting the shoddy comparisons, that’s not true because of 2) above. Sticking to those shoddy comparisons, this Fighting Style would be worth pretty much two feats: one for the cantrips, one for the Mage Armor. Giving up proficiencies you do not want is not worth a feat, it’s worth precisely nothing.
Make this fighting style just give them two wizard cantrips, and nothing else.
If they want Mage Armor at will, they can take the Armor of Shadows Eldritch Invocation using a feat.
If they want Intelligence modifier for attack and damage rolls, they can take the "Elf Sword" cantrip (rename this to something else, maybe "Elven Blade" or "Swift Sword"), but you need to rebalance this cantrip. I would specify that you must attack with one hand with this weapon, to make it not better than Shillelagh.
If they want Intelligence in place of Dexterity for their AC, you could make that be a feat that requires this fighting style that allows them to do this. That is definitely a powerful feat, and would be worth taking.
Force Armor Fighting Style You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you know the Elf Sword cantrip and one other cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast these cantrips at will as an innate spell without spell components. Intelligence is the spellcasting ability.
ELF SWORD Transmutation cantrip Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: Self Components: M (longsword) Duration: 1 minute You guide your longsword attacks telekinetically. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls using a longsword. It becomes a magical weapon if it is not one already.
Note. The Elf Sword cantrip is roughly identical to Shillelagh, except dealing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
The proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors (about a feat on the weak side) swaps for the Mage Armor (about a feat on the strong side).
The Fighting Style (about a feat) is two cantrips (each is treated as if a half feat, but is on the weak side, closer to a skill proficiency in worth).
Any high elf can gain the Elf Sword cantrip, by means of the high elf cantrip trait, and is already proficient with the longsword.
Comparing this to an actual Feat Magic Initiate: Wizard which grants 2 cantrips, and 1 spell of 1st level.
say you take Firebolt as your ranged attack spell, your elven blade cantrip as your melee spell and then Mage Armor as your level 1 spell which you can only cast 1/day unless you are also a wizard. It still requires Dexterity for AC not Intelligence every wizard will do a 1 level or maybe 2 level dip to fighter for that Fighting style. It outperforms anything the Wizard would could do on their own. This style is so OP its almost funny, I do not mean to disrespect but I have read every page every post in this subject, this fighting style is beyond even the hexblades 1to 3 level dip for Paladins.
For any who didnt read the Shillelach spell, it transforms the quarterstaff into a d8 versatile weapon, the same as a longsword. The Shillelach cantrip substitutes the spellcasting ability instead of Strength, same as the Elf Sword cantrip.
Shillelach and Elf Sword are mechanically equivalent cantrips.
Notice, the Mage Armor Fighting Style includes a swap.
The Fighter loses proficiency with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, the Fighter gets Mage Armor and can swap Intelligence for Dexterity bonus. The end result is an AC of 13+Intelligence, maxing at AC 18, identical to a suit of Plate Armor.
The problem with this is, plate armor is expensive - it costs 1500 gp for a single set. I understand that having an intelligence of 20 doesn't start at 1st level, but as a fighter you can easily get it at 6th. Unless your DM loads you with gold, your fellow party members pool thier gold, or you find one as treasure (which in published adventures is quite rare) you may not have a suit of plate armor at that time. And that's just about the armor, you also get a cantrip?
The longsword conflates two separate kinds of historical weapons.
• Sword (1d8 slashing/piercing, finesse) − bladelength between 2 and 3 feet. • Longsword (1d8 slashing, versatile) − bladelength between 3 and 4 feet.
I know this is off-topic, but this is semi-true. The Longsword in dnd most closely relates to an arming sword from real life. The greatsword most closely resembles a longsword. Greatswords in real life could be longer than 6 feet and weighed about 10 pounds. In dnd, a weapon like this would definitely have the reach property.
For any who didnt read the Shillelach spell, it transforms the quarterstaff into a d8 versatile weapon, the same as a longsword. The Shillelach cantrip substitutes the spellcasting ability instead of Strength, same as the Elf Sword cantrip.
Shillelach and Elf Sword are mechanically equivalent cantrips.
Oh you're right. I had forgotten that it changed the damage die to a d8. It doesn't change the versatile damage. If it did, it would say that. There are better magic longswords than magic quarterstaffs or clubs, but that's not a major issue.
What is still a major issue is that your fighting style is still substantially better than every other fighting style. You never answered my question. Do you really think your fighting style is comparable in power to druiduc warrior or any of the other fighting styles currently in the game?
I know this is off-topic, but this is semi-true. The Longsword in dnd most closely relates to an arming sword from real life. The greatsword most closely resembles a longsword. Greatswords in real life could be longer than 6 feet and weighed about 10 pounds. In dnd, a weapon like this would definitely have the reach property.
Actually, the longsword is somewhat on topic because the Elf Sword cantrip refers to the longsword. Also of issue is how finesse fails to relate to the longsword.
One of the difficulties of 5e is the absence of the knightly arming sword, namely a "normal" sword. The weapons table in the Players Handbook has the shortsword ( ≈ gladius, seax, etcetera) and the longsword ( ≈ reallife longsword, claymore, bastard sword, etcetera), but skips over the normal sword that is between them.
The normal sword is especially significant for the elf, whose culture is proficient with it, and at the same time specializes in Dexterity, finesse and bow.
The Japanese measure swords by a unit that is equivalent to 1 foot or 30 centimeters. Coincidentally, these units correspond exactly to European blades as well. Note, the length of the hilt can vary significantly, and the units refer to the length of the blade only.
Ideally, the bladelengths are as follows:
Weapon type (double-edged bladelength) dagger (less than 1 foot / 30 cm) shortsword (between 1 and 2 feet / 30 and 60 cm) − langseax, gladius, machete, etcetera sword (between 2 and 3 feet / 60 and 90 cm) − viking sword, spatha, knightly arming sword, etcetera longsword (between 3 and 4 feet / 90 and 120 cm) − longsword, claymore, bastard sword, etcetera greatsword (over 4 feet / 120 cm, often between 5 and 6 feet) − rare, renaissance, German zweihaander
The significance here is that the D&D longsword confuses two different weapons. sword (1d8 slashing/piercing, finesse) longsword (1d8 slashing, versatile)
The high elf would reasonably be proficient with the sword (finesse), but not the longsword (versatile).
One can use the renaissance long thin rapier (1d8 piercing, finesse) to represent the missing medieval sword (1d8 slashing/piercing, finesse), but even the passing thought of vikings wielding rapiers is unpalatable.
Regarding the nomenclature, "elf sword", I have in mind reallife terms:
• "elf realm" (alfheimr) − the sky • "elf radiation" (alfrǫdull) − the sun • "elf splendor" (ælfscínu) − the magical enchanting luminous beauty of an elf • "elf spear" (alfgeirr) − a magical spear • "elf counselor" (alfráðr, ælfræd, alfred, aldred) − an elf as a manifestation of fate who as a guardian spirit foretells the future • "elf territory" (alfríkr, eldritch; alberich, auberon, oberon, ælfric, alfric) − an area under the control of an elf; a ruler among elves
What is still a major issue is that your fighting style is still substantially better than every other fighting style. You never answered my question. Do you really think your fighting style is comparable in power to druiduc warrior or any of the other fighting styles currently in the game?
Essentially, the Fighting Style is two separate units.
• A feature swap: Mage Armor instead of both Medium Armor and Heavy Armor. Which is a wash. (The Mage Armor is a bit better, but the difference is nonsignificant.)
• The fighting style itself. The fighting style itself should be worth about a feat. Two cantrips is considered as if two halffeats, but is less good compared to other feats.
Part of the problem with fighting styles is, some really are worth a feat (Archery) and some are worthless (Great Weapon Fighting). Some are somewhere in between, being less good than a feat, but serviceable and flavorful.
Two cantrips for a fighting style has less value than a feat.
Suppose that the standard feat is worth about 8 points. Some feats are powerful, and worth 10 or 12 points. Other feats are less satisfying being worth 6 or 4 points. But aim for 8 points, and the feat cant go too wrong.
Feat (8 points) Halffeat (4 points)
In the PH (Players Handbook), the Moderately Armored feat is a halffeat. • shield (2 points) • medium armor (2 points)
I consider this halffeat accurate and adequate. If someone already has light armor, then this halffeat is adequate. The shield (stackable +2 but requires offhand) is worth about 2 points. The medium armor (upto +3 but blocks Dex bonus and might impede Stealth) is situationally worth about 2 points.
Now if someone already has light armor, the Mage Armor is only a +1 AC bonus. Arguably this is only worth 2 points. However, because the Dex bonus remains full, it is situationally good if someone has a Dex build. At most, Mage Armor is worth a halffeat − if someone already has light armor. However, if someone has no armor proficiency, then the Mage Armor is probably worth a feat 8 point, being equivalent to light armor (half feat) plus +1 AC (halffeat).
The Fighter already has light armor, so the Mage Armor is only worth a +1 bonus to AC. Essentially a half-feat for a Dex build.
Thus to swap out both Medium Armor (2 points) and Heavy Armor (4 points) (totaling 6 points) to get Mage Armor (4 points) is actually a loss.
The Eldritch Knight who dumps Intelligence still has access to great Wizard spells that dont need Intelligence. Spells that buff, defend, and mobilize lack saving throws. These kinds of spells without saves happen to be highly useful for a Fighter. By contrast, only aggressive spells require a saving throw thus benefit from an Intelligence boost to the DC. In other words, for an Eldritch Knight, Intelligence is nice but not required.
Normally, a Fighter with Mage Armor will optimize for a Dex build. The investment in Dex simultaneously improves the reflex save (necessary!), and also improves ranged attacks (somewhat necessary), stealth (nice), and initiative (nice). Thus the Dex build comes with a suite of power. Really, Dexterity is overpowered compared to the other abilities, and ultimately Dex is the problem in the first place.
A Dex Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent: Dex-Con.
If the Mage Armor switches from Dex to Int for the AC boost, then the Eldritch Knight loses the reflex save (painful!). And there is somewhat of a wash between high damage range attacks (bow) versus range spells. The gain of spells is nice but not necessary, and the loss of reflex hurts.
The ability swap is moreorless a wash.
In sum, swapping mundane armor for magical armor is a wash, is balanced, and is for the purpose of magical flavor.
Limit the INT swap to finesse weapons and armor swap to once a day, Mage Armor as written and I'd probably be ok with it in my game. I still think you are drastically underestimating the power of "sub your main stat with this other stat." If that was a feat it would certainly not be one of the less powerful ones and it would find its way into lots of builds. Stat matching is one of the major limitations of the MC system and this would open up a very large can of worms.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Having to roll at disadvantage (plate) and rolling with no disadvantage is yet another big distinction you're failing to accept in your insistence that you presented a thoughtful option and not a power up above and beyond the rest of the Fighter class's first level iterations.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
ScatterBraind,
I am interested in switching the Intelligence to finesse weapons. This continues the possibility of dumping Dex. It leaves the door open if someone wants to invest in Strength. Altho I want to see Two-Ability-Dependence, I also want to see builds with Strength as an appealing tertiary.
Flavor turns out to be interfere with the finesse mechanic, namely the longsword. It drives me crazy that the longsword (or rather the normal sword) fails to be a finesse weapon. This relates to the high elf problem to where the longsword proficiency fails to synergize with Dex. If there is such thing as a "sword" (martial weapon, 1d8 slash/pierce, finesse, nonversatile), then I would happily switch the Int to finesse weapons only. I want to see a normal sword in the hand of the Eldritch Knight, flavorwise. Besides that, I find it coherent if telekinesis works more effectively with finesse agile weapons, rather than unwieldly heavy weapons.
Regarding the Mage Armor, I believe it is ok for the Fighter class to have nice things. In the case of Eldritch Knight, nice things includes magical things. The difference between Mage Armor for 8 hours versus Mage Armor for 24 hours is tolerable, and the at-will always-on, any style, is for me an inspired aspect that makes it fun. Mage Armor is nonbroken, well within a feat, and to over-nerf it for an unsatisfactory reason would be bad design.
So, the Mage Armor is fine and can stay. But I will switch the Intelligence to finesse weapons only. I might specifically let the style treat the longsword as a finesse weapon.
MidnightPlat, maybe you can convince me otherwise, but I honestly dont care if someone is average at Stealth, any more than I care if they are average at Perception, average at Slight of Hand, average at Animal Handling, or average at any other skill. To argue that being average at a skill is somehow problematic is less compelling.
Pangurjan, a vague assertion about overpower without proof feels less helpful. For example, if you did dpr calculations for each tier and demonstrated that the Fighting Style was dealing as much damage as the Paladin is, that would get my attention. But of course, such damage seems unlikely. I have a good intuition for structures and systems, and as long as I am not overlooking some specific problem, I am confident that the Fighting Style as it was written balances fine. If you think of a specific problem, and can demonstrate its disruptiveness, that is helpful.
he / him
Force Armor Fighting Style
You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you can use Intelligence for finesse weapons instead of Dexterity, and treat the longsword as a finesse weapon. You know one cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast the cantrip at will as an innate spell without spell components.
he / him
You're ostrich-heading and misrepresenting criticism throughout this thread. To address your poor summation of my unaddressed objection, I wasn't talking about average. A fighter who goes to your temple on Coruscant walks out as Padawan with the boon of Mage Armor's AC. When that fighter roles for stealth they get to make a straight roll. A similarly AC'd fighter lacking the gift you give to players who embrace your homebrew needs to worry about taking the same roll at disadvantage. That's just one of the faults of your fighting style there on the surface. You're asking for deep mathematical objections ... but to all who've objected to the style such deep dives aren't worth it because the faults are sitting right there in front of your readers. You don't want to recognize that, and that's fine; but it's clear the overwhelming number of readers of this thread see it as a bad idea. You don't need to, you can privilege your ideas in your game and your players can go along with your genius or struggle with playing conventional characters who don't elect to take your options.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
@Gvarayi, I'm just letting you know that I'm heading out of the thread. You have obviously made up your mind, even though the vast majority of people in this thread have warned you that this Fighting Style is OP, so there's no point in my arguing any longer. Have a good day, and I'll see you around in other threads.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The obvious issue has been mentioned multiple times: you're turning the concept of a warrior with arcane spellcasting from three ability dependency into two ability dependency.
An Arcane Archer with this fighting style and starting out with the standard array can possibly have his Int maxed at 20 by level 5 if he's got some magical buff, when he gets his first extra attack, and let's say his secondary stat, Con, is still at 14 with the tertiary one at possibly also at 14 and going into Dex or Wis depending on whether the player values Dex saves + initiative higher than Wis saves or vice versa. Or it goes somewhere else for flavour or liking Cha-based skills or something, doesn't really matter. He's got a magical +1 longbow. AC is 18, attack bonus is +9, regular damage per hit is 1d8+6 (from a lovely range of 150/600) and the save DC for his 2/short rest (so let's say 6/day) Arcane Shots is a highly respectable 16. He's got his extra attack, his Action Surge, Second Wind and a cantrip.
That same Arcane Archer taking the archery fighting style instead will have 17 AC, a significantly better Dex save and initiative, an attack bonus of +11, same damage, but the save DC for his Arcane Shots will be a pretty underwhelming 13. He might of course elect to not max out Dex and go for an 18 there and a 16 in Int, but that'll cut down his AC further in comparison, take that save and initiative difference down a point, reduce his damage per shot and that DC 14 save would still not be anything to write home about.
Both of them pick up their 2nd ASI at level 6. For me, it's really hard to argue the 2nd archer's edge in Dex save, initiative and attack is even remotely as good as having a save DC that's actually difficult to beat.
A Paladin wants Str, Cha and Con. At level 5 we're looking at 18/16/14 with a similar magical buff of +1 to his preferred ability. Assuming a +1 longsword and shield combo and I'll throw in the plate armour, AC is 20 (but in melee), Dex save and initiative will be in the basement, attack bonus is +8, regular damage is 1d8+7, and he's got 6 spell slots/day to smite or cast a spell with (if smiting, +2d8 damage four times and +3d8 twice, more if against undead/fiend). Various Oath benefits might also help.
Most of the Arcane Shots above offer +2d6 (Force rather than Radiant) damage + one of various effects, or does stuff like Banishing the target for a turn. I'm sure you'll argue otherwise, but personally I'll take the archer every day here due to the range advantage - particularly with the Action Surge partially making up for the damage deficit. And that's with a not very highly rated Fighter subclass vs a Paladin. Which brings me to:
A Fighter 1/Wizard (Bladesinger) 4 using a similar setup, without using his Bladesong, will have an AC of 18, attack bonus +9, regular damage per hit 1d8+6 (no extra attack though, at least not for another level), spell attack bonus +8 and spell save DC 16. During his Bladesong that AC goes up to 23 and his concentration checks get a +5 (if Fighter was his first level taken, Con will be a proficient save as well). If he has Shield, he can use that 4 times a day (not counting Arcane Recovery) to bump his AC up for a round with a reaction after knowing if that will be enough to turn a hit into a miss. He's also got 3/day of such staples as Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness or (See) Invisibility; if that Shield isn't needed too often there are spells that can turn an entire encounter like Sleep or Tasha's Hideous Laughter, along with the usual suspects wizards typically adore; and then there's unlimited cantrips, including True Strike (which one level from now he can cast instead of taking a second attack). You're basically looking at a Wizard that delays his spell progression by one level in order to be able to reliably contribute in combat even while saving his spells and with relatively few worries over being squishy. To put this even more in perspective, a Bladesinger gets Int to melee damage (just damage, not attack rolls) at level 14. You'd give them that and more with a single Fighter level or a feat. It doesn't even compare. Heck, I might consider this for any wizard even without ever wanting to go into melee period. Take a longbow with me for shits and giggles and call it good.
And all of that (apologies for all who read that wall of text) isn't even all that pertinent. It doesn't really matter whether this allows arcane builds to outdamage a paladin or some other apples vs oranges comparison. The huge red flag is that it's a no brainer, absolutely significantly better option than not taking it for several subclasses. That alone should already tell you it's too good.
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Force Armor Fighting Style
You trained to wield magic as your Fighting Style. You swap out the proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors. Instead, you know the Mage Armor spell, and can cast and dispel it at will as a reaction, as an innate spell without spell components. The armor appears in any style you wish, or as an invisible force around your body. According to high elf decorum, the Mage Armor appears as a fine-mesh chain shirt, worn over or under a fabric tunic of a solid bold color with borders of intricate embroidery. You can use Intelligence instead of Dexterity for your AC bonus. Additionally, you know the Elf Sword cantrip and one other cantrip of your choice, such as Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, or Resistance. You can cast these cantrips at will as an innate spell without spell components. Intelligence is the spellcasting ability.
ELF SWORD
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: M (longsword)
Duration: 1 minute
You guide your longsword attacks telekinetically. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls using a longsword. It becomes a magical weapon if it is not one already.
Note. The Elf Sword cantrip is roughly identical to Shillelagh, except dealing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
The proficiencies with Medium and Heavy armors (about a feat on the weak side) swaps for the Mage Armor (about a feat on the strong side).
The Fighting Style (about a feat) is two cantrips (each is treated as if a half feat, but is on the weak side, closer to a skill proficiency in worth).
Any high elf can gain the Elf Sword cantrip, by means of the high elf cantrip trait, and is already proficient with the longsword.
he / him
Still too good. Get rid of the INT instead of DEX for AC and maybe. I realize you want to get rid of the multiple attribute dependency but this is way too good. Also, get rid of the cantrips. If you keep the cantrips, 100000% get rid of eldritch blast. That's just silly. There is absolutely no reason to give an arcane based character access to a warlock only cantrip.
I still just want to point out that the closest comparable fighting style is Druidic Fighting and all it does is give 2 cantrips. Yours also gives 2 cantrips (good) but also a ton of other stuff.
Shillelagh is limited to Clubs (1d4) and Quarterstaffs (1d6 versatile). This is without question stronger than Shillelagh which by many accounts is already among the best cantrips in the game. Longswords (1d8 versatile) are not only a better base weapon, but there are also much stronger magic longswords compared to magic clubs or quarterstaffs (for whacking).
Let's compare your homebrew fighting style with that of an existing fighting style (Druidic Warrior).
Do you honestly think your homebrew fighting style is comparable in power to Druidic Warrior? Or Archery? Or Defense? Or whatever else?
1) ... except Shillelagh is restricted to Druids, who are unable to use their spellcasting ability for AC. That context makes it not identical, not even roughly.
2) It’s not an even swap if you don’t want both equally. You can try to claim they’re both worth about a feat, but that doesn’t mean they’re equally valuable for any given character. A non-Dex Fighter giving up his medium and heavy armor proficiencies for Keen Mind isn’t making a fair swap, to his great detriment. A Dex Fighter giving up those same proficiencies for any of maybe half a dozen feats is arguably committing daylight robbery, on the other hand. You’re creating a false equivalence by not acknowledging that a feat’s value is determined by it being something you get, not something you give up. You have to give up an ASI or part of your variant human racial package to get a feat, you can’t cherry pick a couple of abilities you don’t care for anyway to “pay” for a feat instead.
3) Even accepting the shoddy comparisons, that’s not true because of 2) above. Sticking to those shoddy comparisons, this Fighting Style would be worth pretty much two feats: one for the cantrips, one for the Mage Armor. Giving up proficiencies you do not want is not worth a feat, it’s worth precisely nothing.
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Make this fighting style just give them two wizard cantrips, and nothing else.
If they want Mage Armor at will, they can take the Armor of Shadows Eldritch Invocation using a feat.
If they want Intelligence modifier for attack and damage rolls, they can take the "Elf Sword" cantrip (rename this to something else, maybe "Elven Blade" or "Swift Sword"), but you need to rebalance this cantrip. I would specify that you must attack with one hand with this weapon, to make it not better than Shillelagh.
If they want Intelligence in place of Dexterity for their AC, you could make that be a feat that requires this fighting style that allows them to do this. That is definitely a powerful feat, and would be worth taking.
I hope this helps.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Comparing this to an actual Feat Magic Initiate: Wizard which grants 2 cantrips, and 1 spell of 1st level.
say you take Firebolt as your ranged attack spell, your elven blade cantrip as your melee spell and then Mage Armor as your level 1 spell which you can only cast 1/day unless you are also a wizard. It still requires Dexterity for AC not Intelligence every wizard will do a 1 level or maybe 2 level dip to fighter for that Fighting style. It outperforms anything the Wizard would could do on their own. This style is so OP its almost funny, I do not mean to disrespect but I have read every page every post in this subject, this fighting style is beyond even the hexblades 1to 3 level dip for Paladins.
For any who didnt read the Shillelach spell, it transforms the quarterstaff into a d8 versatile weapon, the same as a longsword. The Shillelach cantrip substitutes the spellcasting ability instead of Strength, same as the Elf Sword cantrip.
Shillelach and Elf Sword are mechanically equivalent cantrips.
he / him
The problem with this is, plate armor is expensive - it costs 1500 gp for a single set. I understand that having an intelligence of 20 doesn't start at 1st level, but as a fighter you can easily get it at 6th. Unless your DM loads you with gold, your fellow party members pool thier gold, or you find one as treasure (which in published adventures is quite rare) you may not have a suit of plate armor at that time. And that's just about the armor, you also get a cantrip?
I know this is off-topic, but this is semi-true. The Longsword in dnd most closely relates to an arming sword from real life. The greatsword most closely resembles a longsword. Greatswords in real life could be longer than 6 feet and weighed about 10 pounds. In dnd, a weapon like this would definitely have the reach property.
Oh you're right. I had forgotten that it changed the damage die to a d8. It doesn't change the versatile damage. If it did, it would say that. There are better magic longswords than magic quarterstaffs or clubs, but that's not a major issue.
What is still a major issue is that your fighting style is still substantially better than every other fighting style. You never answered my question. Do you really think your fighting style is comparable in power to druiduc warrior or any of the other fighting styles currently in the game?
Actually, the longsword is somewhat on topic because the Elf Sword cantrip refers to the longsword. Also of issue is how finesse fails to relate to the longsword.
One of the difficulties of 5e is the absence of the knightly arming sword, namely a "normal" sword. The weapons table in the Players Handbook has the shortsword ( ≈ gladius, seax, etcetera) and the longsword ( ≈ reallife longsword, claymore, bastard sword, etcetera), but skips over the normal sword that is between them.
The normal sword is especially significant for the elf, whose culture is proficient with it, and at the same time specializes in Dexterity, finesse and bow.
The Japanese measure swords by a unit that is equivalent to 1 foot or 30 centimeters. Coincidentally, these units correspond exactly to European blades as well. Note, the length of the hilt can vary significantly, and the units refer to the length of the blade only.
Ideally, the bladelengths are as follows:
Weapon type (double-edged bladelength)
dagger (less than 1 foot / 30 cm)
shortsword (between 1 and 2 feet / 30 and 60 cm) − langseax, gladius, machete, etcetera
sword (between 2 and 3 feet / 60 and 90 cm) − viking sword, spatha, knightly arming sword, etcetera
longsword (between 3 and 4 feet / 90 and 120 cm) − longsword, claymore, bastard sword, etcetera
greatsword (over 4 feet / 120 cm, often between 5 and 6 feet) − rare, renaissance, German zweihaander
The significance here is that the D&D longsword confuses two different weapons.
sword (1d8 slashing/piercing, finesse)
longsword (1d8 slashing, versatile)
The high elf would reasonably be proficient with the sword (finesse), but not the longsword (versatile).
One can use the renaissance long thin rapier (1d8 piercing, finesse) to represent the missing medieval sword (1d8 slashing/piercing, finesse), but even the passing thought of vikings wielding rapiers is unpalatable.
he / him
Regarding the nomenclature, "elf sword", I have in mind reallife terms:
• "elf realm" (alfheimr) − the sky
• "elf radiation" (alfrǫdull) − the sun
• "elf splendor" (ælfscínu) − the magical enchanting luminous beauty of an elf
• "elf spear" (alfgeirr) − a magical spear
• "elf counselor" (alfráðr, ælfræd, alfred, aldred) − an elf as a manifestation of fate who as a guardian spirit foretells the future
• "elf territory" (alfríkr, eldritch; alberich, auberon, oberon, ælfric, alfric) − an area under the control of an elf; a ruler among elves
etcetera.
he / him
Essentially, the Fighting Style is two separate units.
• A feature swap: Mage Armor instead of both Medium Armor and Heavy Armor. Which is a wash. (The Mage Armor is a bit better, but the difference is nonsignificant.)
• The fighting style itself. The fighting style itself should be worth about a feat. Two cantrips is considered as if two halffeats, but is less good compared to other feats.
Part of the problem with fighting styles is, some really are worth a feat (Archery) and some are worthless (Great Weapon Fighting). Some are somewhere in between, being less good than a feat, but serviceable and flavorful.
Two cantrips for a fighting style has less value than a feat.
he / him
Suppose that the standard feat is worth about 8 points. Some feats are powerful, and worth 10 or 12 points. Other feats are less satisfying being worth 6 or 4 points. But aim for 8 points, and the feat cant go too wrong.
Feat (8 points)
Halffeat (4 points)
In the PH (Players Handbook), the Moderately Armored feat is a halffeat.
• shield (2 points)
• medium armor (2 points)
I consider this halffeat accurate and adequate. If someone already has light armor, then this halffeat is adequate. The shield (stackable +2 but requires offhand) is worth about 2 points. The medium armor (upto +3 but blocks Dex bonus and might impede Stealth) is situationally worth about 2 points.
Now if someone already has light armor, the Mage Armor is only a +1 AC bonus. Arguably this is only worth 2 points. However, because the Dex bonus remains full, it is situationally good if someone has a Dex build. At most, Mage Armor is worth a halffeat − if someone already has light armor. However, if someone has no armor proficiency, then the Mage Armor is probably worth a feat 8 point, being equivalent to light armor (half feat) plus +1 AC (halffeat).
The Fighter already has light armor, so the Mage Armor is only worth a +1 bonus to AC. Essentially a half-feat for a Dex build.
Thus to swap out both Medium Armor (2 points) and Heavy Armor (4 points) (totaling 6 points) to get Mage Armor (4 points) is actually a loss.
The Eldritch Knight who dumps Intelligence still has access to great Wizard spells that dont need Intelligence. Spells that buff, defend, and mobilize lack saving throws. These kinds of spells without saves happen to be highly useful for a Fighter. By contrast, only aggressive spells require a saving throw thus benefit from an Intelligence boost to the DC. In other words, for an Eldritch Knight, Intelligence is nice but not required.
Normally, a Fighter with Mage Armor will optimize for a Dex build. The investment in Dex simultaneously improves the reflex save (necessary!), and also improves ranged attacks (somewhat necessary), stealth (nice), and initiative (nice). Thus the Dex build comes with a suite of power. Really, Dexterity is overpowered compared to the other abilities, and ultimately Dex is the problem in the first place.
A Dex Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent: Dex-Con.
If the Mage Armor switches from Dex to Int for the AC boost, then the Eldritch Knight loses the reflex save (painful!). And there is somewhat of a wash between high damage range attacks (bow) versus range spells. The gain of spells is nice but not necessary, and the loss of reflex hurts.
The ability swap is moreorless a wash.
In sum, swapping mundane armor for magical armor is a wash, is balanced, and is for the purpose of magical flavor.
he / him
Eldritch knight and psi warrior are meant to be fighters, using armor and stuff. You might as well just make a monk subclass with psionics/magic