So Dms, how do you all balance the third act of your adventure? I'm nearing the finale of an adventure that has taken the party from level 3-8. At the end of this adventure they will be level 9. Now, here's my conundrum: How do you deal neutrally with the players actions, and the story that is most interesting? So far, if the villains succeeded, then we'd have an epic new story to tell. But if the heroes succeed we're back to open world wandering etc. I have more plot hooks and plenty of stuff for them to do and I look forward to it. But the way there actions have influenced my initial plan has formed an entirely new situation that is really cool.
I'm not sure that I completely understand what you're asking but if my adventure were a "Kill the villain or the world ends" deal, and the players didn't kill the villain then the campaign ends. If it were "Stop the villain from doing X" and they successfully stopped the villain from doing X but didn't kill the villain then you can either end the campaign as a success or continue on with it. Maybe the villain was a Priest leading a cult to perform a ritual to bring back a God. If the players stopped the ritual but the Priest lived, maybe the Priest has made a deal with a lord of the Nine Hells for power in exchange for the souls of your players. Now the campaign is about demon and fiend bounty hunters.
I mostly am torn between whether I should stack the Cards Favorably, within reason, for the players, or for the villains. If the Party fails, a major city in the world becomes a stronghold for Asmodeus, And if the succeed, then they are famous heroes, and move onto more "global" threats. And both options are equally cool, and I'm afraid of leaning into one or the other.
Don't favor either. Let the game play out, especially if there isn't a possibility of a TPK. I would only "interfere" if the players are not enjoying the fight due to poor rolls and are in danger of a TPK. But if the players losing doesn't mean death, then they might feel bad for losing due to poor rolls but the story has evolved and they have more chances to be epic heroes. We all have sessions where we feel like we didn't contribute to anything and it's no one's fault. Now if you realize mid-combat you drastically overtuned the fight, then do something to mitigate that. Some DMs will fudge dice rolls or reduce the maximum hit points of an enemy. Others will end the combat with some RP reason - The enemy has determined you are too weak and no longer a threat and teleports the players out of the lair.
I mostly am torn between whether I should stack the Cards Favorably, within reason, for the players, or for the villains. If the Party fails, a major city in the world becomes a stronghold for Asmodeus, And if the succeed, then they are famous heroes, and move onto more "global" threats. And both options are equally cool, and I'm afraid of leaning into one or the other.
Then don't. I would consider that an opportunity to give the PCs an epic challenge that they might be able to beat, and let the dice fall where they may. Really, it's good to have a situation were either victory or defeat is an acceptable outcome. Just try to structure things so the PCs losing doesn't actually mean a TPK.
It sounds like you are treating it like each adventure is a stand-alone story starring the same characters like sequels in a movie franchise or books in a series. Usually there is some passage of time between sequels like that. In that case, when the story ends and there is nothing already propelling things forward, perhaps letting the PCs take a couple months of downtime is in order. That way they can work on some “personal projects” which might give you more to work with.
I don’t consider any of the things you mentioned, and I don’t stack anything one way or another. I let things play out naturally. But that’s because I already have more to throw at them. Actually, I already threw more at them, they just have to chose what they’re going to field. (And if they don’t choose, then their enemies will....) I try to treat it more like an ongoing tv series with seasons. Take a show like NCIS for example. That’s, like, almost 20 seasons of that sho, so clearly it’s successful. Part of that is because of casting & acting etc., but if the writers weren’t as good as they are none of that would have been enough to keep the show going as long as it has. Do what are they doing right? Well, a few things.
Each season has an overarching storyline not unlike a D&D Adventure. However, every episode in the season isn’t focused on that storyline. There might be a few episodes in a row with almost nothing to do with that storyline. Or maybe they touch on it briefly in a short exchange between characters at the end of an otherwise unrelated episode. New characters are introduced, etc. so it isn’t a microcosm all around those few characters focused on one thing, the entire rest of the world seems to be happening all around them all the time, so things are extra believable because they seem to emulate real life. (That’s called verisimilitude.) At the end of the season when the team finally overcomes whatever the source of conflict was for that storyline, but some character that got introduced 10 episodes earlier and had some character development that was unrelated to what the team (and the audience) was focused on does a thing in the final episode that leaves everyone gobsmacked and people go “Whoa! I can’t wait for next season!”
As an example, when Ari killed Kate at the end of season 2 and became the BBE heading into the next season. Meanwhile his sister gets introduced and ends up a regular cast member for a looong time. They introduced a few people throughout the season to land on the few they intended to make regular (like McGee), and the rest faded to the background as NPCs or became “returning characters” (like that player everyone has who can only make it to 1 game out of 5.)
So, to try to bring a similar approach to DMing. While the party is already on their currently main quest (the “A-Plot”), I am constantly dropping red herrings, side quests, B & C-Plots, and laying the groundwork for other things to potentially develop into future B & C- Plots. The PCs always feel like their characters have more options for stuff to do than they could ever possibly get to. That way things appear (I hope) to continue developing in as organic a fashion as I can manage.
I do whatever I can to help build that verisimilitude I mentioned earlier. I introduce new NPCs that are just there to make the wold feel real. I drop 1-shots in the middle of other adventures if I can make it seem like something that could actually happen. I specifically make a couple normal things seem fishy, and vice versa. Sometimes I make completely non-antagonist NPCs incredibly unlikable, and the worst Kinda of villains as the most genuinely likeable NPC they meet the whole adventure. I let them hear news of goings on in other towns or countries that have nothing to do with them just to remind them there’s a whole world out there. (If they go to investigate those goings on, then there will inevitably be adventure to discover when they get there.) Those are all just some of the ways to make things feel more “real” for your players. And I have found that as long as I focus on that stuff, the players often find their own motivations for the party to choose to pursue one thing over another.
So, if you don’t want to do the downtime thing I suggested in the beginning then:
Maybe you can use an NPC from a former adventure to some effect as a return character.
Or maybe introduce someone new before this adventure wraps up.
Or maybe the villain’s lieutenant double crosses the BBE in front of them, says something cryptic and then disappears, and the party is like WTF?!?
Or perhaps things wrap up and they feel like everything is mission accomplished when suddenly something completely different comes out of left field and some great threat they have never heard of happens.
Or maybe some NPC comes along and takes out this villain right in front of the party and they can be like WTF?!? (Like how The Punisher was first introduced in a random issue of Spider-Man that anyone only remembers because that’s when The Punisher was first introduced.)
Or maybe they wrap up and are just celebrating in their favorite taproom when a mysterious stranger comes with either an offer of some kind, or perhaps to ask the party to come save their village from some strange thing and before the conversation ends that NPC keeps over dead, a knife in their back and the players are like?!?
(Nothing compels a group of players more than a ?!?, that’s why there are so many in the list.)
Defeating the source of evil may not immediately undo all the evil they've done. You can have degrees of success in a way that "full success" is a very high challenge, "medium success" is what you would expect a typical competent adventuring party to achieve, and so on. And of course degrees of failure as well.
I have a lot of fun offering the party a safe, low-risk path that technically wins but leaves them riddled with shame and guilt that they didn't take the high-risk path with the better result. They almost always go for the high-risk, which bumps up the tension and really helps them to feel like they're fighting on their own terms rather than just going through the motions of an adventure.
Maybe if the heroes succeed, then the campaign is over. You had a beginning, middle and an end. You've told a story, time for a new one. Sometimes forcing it just ruins the experience, like a TV show that goes on for a few seasons past its prime. If you end it after the climax when they win, the characters get to retire, and the players roll up new characters. Heck, you can do that even if they fail. Advance time a generation or two and showing how history remembers the characters can be fun for the players. I mean 3-9 is a pretty good run, they may even be ready for new characters.
The first thing I will ask is have your players all achieved there own backstory arcs, I generally will drip feed my players stuff related to there own story but do t generally resolve these until they reach level 6+. At this point in a 4 player party I will probably look to focus on each players own take for 1-2 levels of advancement. If you haven’t mined your own pc back stories mows the time to do it.
Another good way to break things up for tier 3 is an enforced break, litterely give the characters a year to 18 months off. Have them go away and discuss what they do during g this down time. Have them roll skill checks to achieve what they want, they don’t gain any XP or level but they maybe gain other things, maybe the artificer gets to make that enchanted at our that will take months to do, or the barbarian gets to do a pit fighting tour making it lots of coin. This gives you a chance to reset the world and explain how a bbeg had been growing in the background.
Destroy your world. Matt Mercer did this brilliantly and ruthlessly when he had a group of ancient dragons destroy the main cities in his world, kill a load of key NOCs and force the players onto the back foot facing an enemy that at there current level all they could do was run from.
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So Dms, how do you all balance the third act of your adventure? I'm nearing the finale of an adventure that has taken the party from level 3-8. At the end of this adventure they will be level 9. Now, here's my conundrum: How do you deal neutrally with the players actions, and the story that is most interesting? So far, if the villains succeeded, then we'd have an epic new story to tell. But if the heroes succeed we're back to open world wandering etc. I have more plot hooks and plenty of stuff for them to do and I look forward to it. But the way there actions have influenced my initial plan has formed an entirely new situation that is really cool.
I'm not sure that I completely understand what you're asking but if my adventure were a "Kill the villain or the world ends" deal, and the players didn't kill the villain then the campaign ends. If it were "Stop the villain from doing X" and they successfully stopped the villain from doing X but didn't kill the villain then you can either end the campaign as a success or continue on with it. Maybe the villain was a Priest leading a cult to perform a ritual to bring back a God. If the players stopped the ritual but the Priest lived, maybe the Priest has made a deal with a lord of the Nine Hells for power in exchange for the souls of your players. Now the campaign is about demon and fiend bounty hunters.
I mostly am torn between whether I should stack the Cards Favorably, within reason, for the players, or for the villains. If the Party fails, a major city in the world becomes a stronghold for Asmodeus, And if the succeed, then they are famous heroes, and move onto more "global" threats. And both options are equally cool, and I'm afraid of leaning into one or the other.
Don't favor either. Let the game play out, especially if there isn't a possibility of a TPK. I would only "interfere" if the players are not enjoying the fight due to poor rolls and are in danger of a TPK. But if the players losing doesn't mean death, then they might feel bad for losing due to poor rolls but the story has evolved and they have more chances to be epic heroes. We all have sessions where we feel like we didn't contribute to anything and it's no one's fault. Now if you realize mid-combat you drastically overtuned the fight, then do something to mitigate that. Some DMs will fudge dice rolls or reduce the maximum hit points of an enemy. Others will end the combat with some RP reason - The enemy has determined you are too weak and no longer a threat and teleports the players out of the lair.
Then don't. I would consider that an opportunity to give the PCs an epic challenge that they might be able to beat, and let the dice fall where they may. Really, it's good to have a situation were either victory or defeat is an acceptable outcome. Just try to structure things so the PCs losing doesn't actually mean a TPK.
It sounds like you are treating it like each adventure is a stand-alone story starring the same characters like sequels in a movie franchise or books in a series. Usually there is some passage of time between sequels like that. In that case, when the story ends and there is nothing already propelling things forward, perhaps letting the PCs take a couple months of downtime is in order. That way they can work on some “personal projects” which might give you more to work with.
I don’t consider any of the things you mentioned, and I don’t stack anything one way or another. I let things play out naturally. But that’s because I already have more to throw at them. Actually, I already threw more at them, they just have to chose what they’re going to field. (And if they don’t choose, then their enemies will....) I try to treat it more like an ongoing tv series with seasons. Take a show like NCIS for example. That’s, like, almost 20 seasons of that sho, so clearly it’s successful. Part of that is because of casting & acting etc., but if the writers weren’t as good as they are none of that would have been enough to keep the show going as long as it has. Do what are they doing right? Well, a few things.
Each season has an overarching storyline not unlike a D&D Adventure. However, every episode in the season isn’t focused on that storyline. There might be a few episodes in a row with almost nothing to do with that storyline. Or maybe they touch on it briefly in a short exchange between characters at the end of an otherwise unrelated episode. New characters are introduced, etc. so it isn’t a microcosm all around those few characters focused on one thing, the entire rest of the world seems to be happening all around them all the time, so things are extra believable because they seem to emulate real life. (That’s called verisimilitude.) At the end of the season when the team finally overcomes whatever the source of conflict was for that storyline, but some character that got introduced 10 episodes earlier and had some character development that was unrelated to what the team (and the audience) was focused on does a thing in the final episode that leaves everyone gobsmacked and people go “Whoa! I can’t wait for next season!”
As an example, when Ari killed Kate at the end of season 2 and became the BBE heading into the next season. Meanwhile his sister gets introduced and ends up a regular cast member for a looong time. They introduced a few people throughout the season to land on the few they intended to make regular (like McGee), and the rest faded to the background as NPCs or became “returning characters” (like that player everyone has who can only make it to 1 game out of 5.)
So, to try to bring a similar approach to DMing. While the party is already on their currently main quest (the “A-Plot”), I am constantly dropping red herrings, side quests, B & C-Plots, and laying the groundwork for other things to potentially develop into future B & C- Plots. The PCs always feel like their characters have more options for stuff to do than they could ever possibly get to. That way things appear (I hope) to continue developing in as organic a fashion as I can manage.
I do whatever I can to help build that verisimilitude I mentioned earlier. I introduce new NPCs that are just there to make the wold feel real. I drop 1-shots in the middle of other adventures if I can make it seem like something that could actually happen. I specifically make a couple normal things seem fishy, and vice versa. Sometimes I make completely non-antagonist NPCs incredibly unlikable, and the worst Kinda of villains as the most genuinely likeable NPC they meet the whole adventure. I let them hear news of goings on in other towns or countries that have nothing to do with them just to remind them there’s a whole world out there. (If they go to investigate those goings on, then there will inevitably be adventure to discover when they get there.) Those are all just some of the ways to make things feel more “real” for your players. And I have found that as long as I focus on that stuff, the players often find their own motivations for the party to choose to pursue one thing over another.
So, if you don’t want to do the downtime thing I suggested in the beginning then:
(Nothing compels a group of players more than a ?!?, that’s why there are so many in the list.)
I hope that helps.
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Defeating the source of evil may not immediately undo all the evil they've done. You can have degrees of success in a way that "full success" is a very high challenge, "medium success" is what you would expect a typical competent adventuring party to achieve, and so on. And of course degrees of failure as well.
I have a lot of fun offering the party a safe, low-risk path that technically wins but leaves them riddled with shame and guilt that they didn't take the high-risk path with the better result. They almost always go for the high-risk, which bumps up the tension and really helps them to feel like they're fighting on their own terms rather than just going through the motions of an adventure.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Maybe if the heroes succeed, then the campaign is over. You had a beginning, middle and an end. You've told a story, time for a new one. Sometimes forcing it just ruins the experience, like a TV show that goes on for a few seasons past its prime. If you end it after the climax when they win, the characters get to retire, and the players roll up new characters. Heck, you can do that even if they fail. Advance time a generation or two and showing how history remembers the characters can be fun for the players. I mean 3-9 is a pretty good run, they may even be ready for new characters.
The first thing I will ask is have your players all achieved there own backstory arcs, I generally will drip feed my players stuff related to there own story but do t generally resolve these until they reach level 6+. At this point in a 4 player party I will probably look to focus on each players own take for 1-2 levels of advancement. If you haven’t mined your own pc back stories mows the time to do it.
Another good way to break things up for tier 3 is an enforced break, litterely give the characters a year to 18 months off. Have them go away and discuss what they do during g this down time. Have them roll skill checks to achieve what they want, they don’t gain any XP or level but they maybe gain other things, maybe the artificer gets to make that enchanted at our that will take months to do, or the barbarian gets to do a pit fighting tour making it lots of coin. This gives you a chance to reset the world and explain how a bbeg had been growing in the background.
Destroy your world. Matt Mercer did this brilliantly and ruthlessly when he had a group of ancient dragons destroy the main cities in his world, kill a load of key NOCs and force the players onto the back foot facing an enemy that at there current level all they could do was run from.