If you look at the stat blocks of monsters, they either have spellcasting abilities or they don't. Some spellcaster monsters have innate spellcasting abilities, others cast by level as player characters do.
Point is, you can treat them class related using class abilities only, or you just mix and match in any way you like to. Your example of a demon conjurer might have very poor melee capabilities and few other spells, or you make him a full fledged wizard or whatever - the amount of work you put in such a creature depends if hes just cannonfodder or the BBEG.
If you think of classes like a profession, it's what your training has been about and a set of skills you have learnt. So demons and devil's wouldn't commonly go to training schools, they are creatures who have natural weapons and innate spell casting. About the only split is fighter vs mage, just depending of their natural inclination. Should be no problem in making a fiend that summons others of its kind, magically that works fine.
They can, but I usually don't give classes to monsters.
The reason is that classes have tons of complicated abilities, more and more as they level up. I would not want to, as a DM, have to run a powerful monster that in addition to whatever else was on its stat-block, also had 12 levels worth of Warlock abilities. I have never personally played a Warlock. There are lots of abilities to work out. I am not going to be able to do that in the middle of an encounter.
Stat blocks are already complicated enough. And keep in mind that most monsters do not live more than 3-5 rounds, averaging about 4. What is the point of a list of 27 abilities, most of which are actions, and the demon is only going to use 4 of them?
So what I will do is, give the monster, demon or otherwise, a line in the statblock that tells me, "This character acts as a level 12 Warlock," meaning that if there is some reason to know what level he/she is, that's the equivalent (e.g., if something gives +1 per level of the character, of which almost nothing does in D&D anymore, but just in case). Otherwise, what I will do is look through the Warlock level 1-12 abilities, and pick out no more than 3 of them to give to the monster. These go into its statblock as features. I do not worry about long or short rests. I will instead just give it "3x/day" instead of 3x per short or long rest. Or maybe just "3 times." Or maybe even just "once" since, again, in 4 rounds, how many times will you be able to use a single feature?
So... my advice is, although you CAN give full character class levels to a monster, I generally wouldn't. Even a BBEG... I will give it a few abilities that I think will be useful, but not everything from the whole class. A full class makes the stat block super-complicated and you'll never be able to use most of the abilities anyway, and in the mean time you will have to look over a 2-page long stat block in the middle of battle to figure out just what the whiskey/tango/foxtrot to do with the monster each round. Not worth it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
There's no official rule for it, unlike in 3.5 where they let you slap class levels on anything. I suppose you could, but its not really worth it because, like people before me mentioned, its too complicated for just a few rounds of life. I suggest you try pick and mixing particular a few abilities in for fun, but unless you're designing a boss or a recurring villain, I'd say keep it brief.
I'd say look at something like a Mage, which is the most basic spellcaster creature in the bestiary. The mage doesn't really have any class-specific abilities, but they cast using Intelligence and all the spells they come with are from the Wizard class. It is, functionally, a wizard without all the baggage attached to PC wizards. Or you might have a Berserker, which has the Reckless Attack feature from Barbarians, but doesn't have Rage or anything else beyond that. NPCs and enemies are often simplified versions of player classes. So if you want to make an Infernal Wizard of some kind, it's probably best not to try and apply a full PC stat block to them, but you can pick and choose what specific abilities you want to give them access to and just slap it onto the devil.
I'm agreeing with TransmorpherDDS's advice to just use spell caster features from other stat blocks. Rest of my post, I'm going to show you some options in the rules to do what you want; but also give you my thinking on why I think TransmorpherDDS's suggestion makes more sense in terms of gameplay, action economy, and DM preparation economy.
You ask whether a DM can give monster's character levels. Specifically you want to give demons spell caster levels so they can summon demons.
The Monster Manual's section on demons actually presents an option in a block of text "Variant: Demon Summoning" that provides guidance for demons ability to summon lesser demons (an ability that actually goes back to AD&D).
I think the pitfall of giving PC class levels to monsters is a lot DMs seem to forget a stat block isn't supposed to be equivalent to a character sheet and vice versa. The character sheet presents a PC as a feature set the player can explore, build upon, and deviate into other options over the course of the game. It's much more a "living document" guiding the player through their role in the performance of the game, and is designed for growth. A monster stat block is much more static. Most are literally short lived in game use terms, and even the sustaining BBEG arch nemesis types can grow via DMs arbitration rather than a class feature chart in the PHB. A "monster" stat block presents a challenge to PC to be used by the DM and is designed to contain the challenge so the DM can manage it with all the other adversaries they'll be providing during the game. When a DM starts baking in PC classes into a monster (including humanoid NPCs) I think feel they're overworking, and also missing out on the action economy opportunities you could have by translating class features into aspects of legendary or lair actions.
There's also some "math talk" I've been exposed to that I don't fully follow but seems to make sense that points to PC vs PC combat is more messy/swingy than PC to monster stat block combat, implying the game isn't really designed for PC v PC combat.
So for the Demon with wizard PC levels, I'd just make the summoning a feature probably following the MM variant guidance. I don't know why you want to give Barbarian levels to demons. To give them better ACs and hit dice? Rage? Again, look at how monster features are traditionally managed and see if you can just grant the fiend some actions rather than relying on a character sheet. Like Berserker rage from the Berserker NPC, if you really feel that's necessary. The bigger demons are pretty tough.
The way you framed your question with a module or adventure set in a "Hell dimension" but talking about demons, I'm wondering if you might want to actually play demons (who in mainstream D&D multiverse don't dwell in Hell unless they're invading) and devils as written and see if they really need the enhancements you're pondering. Once you get above the "fodder" types of both fiends, they get pretty formidable, and if the PCs are in a dimension full of them, not sure how important summoning is going to be if the landscape already flush with fiends.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Hi I have just started writing my first DM module. It's going to be set in a hell dimension. Can demons or devils have character classes?
Such as wizard or barbarian?
I'd quite like to have a demon that can summon lesser demons. For example
The subtext I'm reading here is "you have to be a wizard to summon demons."
Not true at all. You can give monsters any ability you want them to have. They don't need fighter for multiattack, they don't need rogue for extra damage with advantage, they don't need a spellcaster class to cast spells. Just give them the spellcaster ability and they can cast spells. Hell, you can write entirely new spells to put on their list if you want.
Hi I have just started writing my first DM module. It's going to be set in a hell dimension. Can demons or devils have character classes?
Such as wizard or barbarian?
I'd quite like to have a demon that can summon lesser demons. For example
The subtext I'm reading here is "you have to be a wizard to summon demons."
Not true at all. You can give monsters any ability you want them to have. They don't need fighter for multiattack, they don't need rogue for extra damage with advantage, they don't need a spellcaster class to cast spells. Just give them the spellcaster ability and they can cast spells. Hell, you can write entirely new spells to put on their list if you want.
Hell, you don't even need it as an ability that the demon has in their statblock. You can just decide, as DM, that after two rounds 5 more demons poof into existence and start attacking the party.
You’re the DM, if you want that monster to be able to fart 1d6 flying, purple, fire breathing giraffes on its turn as a Bonus Action, and another 1d4 of them as a Legendary Action too then all you need do is write it in their statblock and it becomes true. (You would however also need to write statblocks for both a normal giraffe and the flying, purple, fire breathing variety too).
I gotta tell you, I’m one of those… “unusual” people who write BBEs by starting with a PC. I’ll tell you, even I convert that “character” into a monster for combat encounters if I anticipate the party will do battle against it. Monster statblocks make it easy for the DM to drop their eyes and be able to land them on the necessary information right away. That is in part because of all the extra stuff that PCs get because they might need it. Once you drop all of that superfluous stuff to focus on what that character will actually need during combat encounters you realize how much stuff PCs get for all three pillars of adventure, and how little of it you need for something with an average life expectancy under 30 seconds.
Chapter 9 of the DMG has a way to add class levels to creatures, which would include devils and demons.
I love making BBEG's by adding class levels to monsters, my advice when doing it, is to simplify as much as possible to make your stat block easier to read.
It's highly likely your enemy isn't going to be making any stat checks aside from Athletics, Deception, Insight and Perception so abilities that don't involve those skills can be ignored.
If your creature has some sort of points to keep track of like ki or sorcery points and they have more than 6, you can usually just pretend they have an infinite amount, like how Martial Arts Adept is just a Way of the Open Hand Monk with infinite ki.
Depending on how mean you want to be to your players, you can decide that unarmoured defense also includes a monsters natural ac bonus, for when that gargoyle barbarian just isn't tough enough.
If you consider the city of Dis there is no reason that all the classes in the material plane can’t exist amongst devils, of course built into the hierarchical lawful structures of hell.
The abyss, again, in their own way I imagine demons exhibit class type beings, such as a demon that can creep into a bedroom to impart nightmares (rogue) a warrior created to fight the blood war (fighter or Barbarian) or a demon fashioned to heal other demons (cleric).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi I have just started writing my first DM module. It's going to be set in a hell dimension. Can demons or devils have character classes?
Such as wizard or barbarian?
I'd quite like to have a demon that can summon lesser demons. For example
If you look at the stat blocks of monsters, they either have spellcasting abilities or they don't. Some spellcaster monsters have innate spellcasting abilities, others cast by level as player characters do.
Point is, you can treat them class related using class abilities only, or you just mix and match in any way you like to. Your example of a demon conjurer might have very poor melee capabilities and few other spells, or you make him a full fledged wizard or whatever - the amount of work you put in such a creature depends if hes just cannonfodder or the BBEG.
If you think of classes like a profession, it's what your training has been about and a set of skills you have learnt. So demons and devil's wouldn't commonly go to training schools, they are creatures who have natural weapons and innate spell casting. About the only split is fighter vs mage, just depending of their natural inclination. Should be no problem in making a fiend that summons others of its kind, magically that works fine.
They can, but I usually don't give classes to monsters.
The reason is that classes have tons of complicated abilities, more and more as they level up. I would not want to, as a DM, have to run a powerful monster that in addition to whatever else was on its stat-block, also had 12 levels worth of Warlock abilities. I have never personally played a Warlock. There are lots of abilities to work out. I am not going to be able to do that in the middle of an encounter.
Stat blocks are already complicated enough. And keep in mind that most monsters do not live more than 3-5 rounds, averaging about 4. What is the point of a list of 27 abilities, most of which are actions, and the demon is only going to use 4 of them?
So what I will do is, give the monster, demon or otherwise, a line in the statblock that tells me, "This character acts as a level 12 Warlock," meaning that if there is some reason to know what level he/she is, that's the equivalent (e.g., if something gives +1 per level of the character, of which almost nothing does in D&D anymore, but just in case). Otherwise, what I will do is look through the Warlock level 1-12 abilities, and pick out no more than 3 of them to give to the monster. These go into its statblock as features. I do not worry about long or short rests. I will instead just give it "3x/day" instead of 3x per short or long rest. Or maybe just "3 times." Or maybe even just "once" since, again, in 4 rounds, how many times will you be able to use a single feature?
So... my advice is, although you CAN give full character class levels to a monster, I generally wouldn't. Even a BBEG... I will give it a few abilities that I think will be useful, but not everything from the whole class. A full class makes the stat block super-complicated and you'll never be able to use most of the abilities anyway, and in the mean time you will have to look over a 2-page long stat block in the middle of battle to figure out just what the whiskey/tango/foxtrot to do with the monster each round. Not worth it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
There's no official rule for it, unlike in 3.5 where they let you slap class levels on anything. I suppose you could, but its not really worth it because, like people before me mentioned, its too complicated for just a few rounds of life. I suggest you try pick and mixing particular a few abilities in for fun, but unless you're designing a boss or a recurring villain, I'd say keep it brief.
"h"
I'd say look at something like a Mage, which is the most basic spellcaster creature in the bestiary. The mage doesn't really have any class-specific abilities, but they cast using Intelligence and all the spells they come with are from the Wizard class. It is, functionally, a wizard without all the baggage attached to PC wizards. Or you might have a Berserker, which has the Reckless Attack feature from Barbarians, but doesn't have Rage or anything else beyond that. NPCs and enemies are often simplified versions of player classes. So if you want to make an Infernal Wizard of some kind, it's probably best not to try and apply a full PC stat block to them, but you can pick and choose what specific abilities you want to give them access to and just slap it onto the devil.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I'm agreeing with TransmorpherDDS's advice to just use spell caster features from other stat blocks. Rest of my post, I'm going to show you some options in the rules to do what you want; but also give you my thinking on why I think TransmorpherDDS's suggestion makes more sense in terms of gameplay, action economy, and DM preparation economy.
You ask whether a DM can give monster's character levels. Specifically you want to give demons spell caster levels so they can summon demons.
DMG's 9th Chapter, DM's Workshop gives some guidance on granting PC class levels to monsters.
The Monster Manual's section on demons actually presents an option in a block of text "Variant: Demon Summoning" that provides guidance for demons ability to summon lesser demons (an ability that actually goes back to AD&D).
I think the pitfall of giving PC class levels to monsters is a lot DMs seem to forget a stat block isn't supposed to be equivalent to a character sheet and vice versa. The character sheet presents a PC as a feature set the player can explore, build upon, and deviate into other options over the course of the game. It's much more a "living document" guiding the player through their role in the performance of the game, and is designed for growth. A monster stat block is much more static. Most are literally short lived in game use terms, and even the sustaining BBEG arch nemesis types can grow via DMs arbitration rather than a class feature chart in the PHB. A "monster" stat block presents a challenge to PC to be used by the DM and is designed to contain the challenge so the DM can manage it with all the other adversaries they'll be providing during the game. When a DM starts baking in PC classes into a monster (including humanoid NPCs) I think feel they're overworking, and also missing out on the action economy opportunities you could have by translating class features into aspects of legendary or lair actions.
There's also some "math talk" I've been exposed to that I don't fully follow but seems to make sense that points to PC vs PC combat is more messy/swingy than PC to monster stat block combat, implying the game isn't really designed for PC v PC combat.
So for the Demon with wizard PC levels, I'd just make the summoning a feature probably following the MM variant guidance. I don't know why you want to give Barbarian levels to demons. To give them better ACs and hit dice? Rage? Again, look at how monster features are traditionally managed and see if you can just grant the fiend some actions rather than relying on a character sheet. Like Berserker rage from the Berserker NPC, if you really feel that's necessary. The bigger demons are pretty tough.
The way you framed your question with a module or adventure set in a "Hell dimension" but talking about demons, I'm wondering if you might want to actually play demons (who in mainstream D&D multiverse don't dwell in Hell unless they're invading) and devils as written and see if they really need the enhancements you're pondering. Once you get above the "fodder" types of both fiends, they get pretty formidable, and if the PCs are in a dimension full of them, not sure how important summoning is going to be if the landscape already flush with fiends.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well, not precisely true, but you're basically producing a custom monster that you have to manually balance when you add class levels to things.
The subtext I'm reading here is "you have to be a wizard to summon demons."
Not true at all. You can give monsters any ability you want them to have. They don't need fighter for multiattack, they don't need rogue for extra damage with advantage, they don't need a spellcaster class to cast spells. Just give them the spellcaster ability and they can cast spells. Hell, you can write entirely new spells to put on their list if you want.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Hell, you don't even need it as an ability that the demon has in their statblock. You can just decide, as DM, that after two rounds 5 more demons poof into existence and start attacking the party.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
You’re the DM, if you want that monster to be able to fart 1d6 flying, purple, fire breathing giraffes on its turn as a Bonus Action, and another 1d4 of them as a Legendary Action too then all you need do is write it in their statblock and it becomes true. (You would however also need to write statblocks for both a normal giraffe and the flying, purple, fire breathing variety too).
I gotta tell you, I’m one of those… “unusual” people who write BBEs by starting with a PC. I’ll tell you, even I convert that “character” into a monster for combat encounters if I anticipate the party will do battle against it. Monster statblocks make it easy for the DM to drop their eyes and be able to land them on the necessary information right away. That is in part because of all the extra stuff that PCs get because they might need it. Once you drop all of that superfluous stuff to focus on what that character will actually need during combat encounters you realize how much stuff PCs get for all three pillars of adventure, and how little of it you need for something with an average life expectancy under 30 seconds.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Chapter 9 of the DMG has a way to add class levels to creatures, which would include devils and demons.
I love making BBEG's by adding class levels to monsters, my advice when doing it, is to simplify as much as possible to make your stat block easier to read.
It's highly likely your enemy isn't going to be making any stat checks aside from Athletics, Deception, Insight and Perception so abilities that don't involve those skills can be ignored.
If your creature has some sort of points to keep track of like ki or sorcery points and they have more than 6, you can usually just pretend they have an infinite amount, like how Martial Arts Adept is just a Way of the Open Hand Monk with infinite ki.
Depending on how mean you want to be to your players, you can decide that unarmoured defense also includes a monsters natural ac bonus, for when that gargoyle barbarian just isn't tough enough.
If you consider the city of Dis there is no reason that all the classes in the material plane can’t exist amongst devils, of course built into the hierarchical lawful structures of hell.
The abyss, again, in their own way I imagine demons exhibit class type beings, such as a demon that can creep into a bedroom to impart nightmares (rogue) a warrior created to fight the blood war (fighter or Barbarian) or a demon fashioned to heal other demons (cleric).