Sorry for the vague title, was struggling to explain it concisely. The issue is this:
The party is hunting down an artifact in the astral sea, now within a Githyanki stronghold. I was expecting the party to find some old contacts who would tell them where the stronghold is and some info on it, including that the area immediately nearby is protected against teleportation and plane shift magic, which I think is a reasonable protection for a magically advanced civilization in the astral sea.
However the party instead managed to use find the path to head straight there, and are now outside the stronghold about to jump headfirst into it without an y knowledge, expecting to be able to get the artifact and then simply plane shift out of danger. So I am wondering if people think this is fair, as they haven't had a lot of opportunity to find out info on the city, but at the same time they didnt really make an effort to.
As I see it there are three things I could do; Just leave things as is and give them a nasty surprise to work out, remove it and just move on, or give our wizard an arcana check to notice the 'change in the air' or something similar.
So I was curious how other people would handle this. Basically deciding between punishing them for not doing their research and not making it feel unfair for the party.
This is not only fair, it is an important element of D&D. Part of what makes D&D fun is the fact you can solve problems in multiple ways, but have to deal with the consequences of how you choose to solve problems. Go slowly and learn every piece of information before making your move? The enemy might be further along in its plan. Move quickly and try and get the minimum amount of information? You might miss out on something critical.
However, while it is fair, you also need to take your particular party into account. There are some players who are, for lack of a better descriptor, a bit thin-skinned and might see this as “player versus DM” though it is decidedly not. I would generally just explain to any players that feel unfairly treated that the design was made in advance (these players often feel the detriment was created last minute just to punish players). If push comes to shove, you also have your date stamped forum post proving this was something established before their actions, not an impromptu decision just to spoil their plans.
Overall, yes, it is fair; but just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something. The actual decision is going to come down to your individual player-DM dynamic, and that is not a choice we strangers on the internet can make for you.
I completely agree with Caerwyn_Glyndwr. I do have two things I would like to add that may help you in this situation.
This situation doesn’t have to end in a TPK. Part of being a good DM is allowing the players and their PCs to “fail forward.” There have to be ways to allow them to fail without resulting in death, you as the DM just have to discover them. Just beware that players will almost always fight to the death rather than surrender, so capturing them is likely going to be very difficult as an alternative. Just warning you. However, if the Gith can forcibly capture one (or more) of the party and present an ultimatum to the party to surrender or their PC comrade(s) dies, then they might surrender to save their comrade(s). Then the campaign can continue by shifting to an escape scenario. That’s just one way to let them fail forward, and it might not work, but others might, so get creative. And don’t be afraid of a little deos ex machina. The moment it looks the most dire for the party could be the moment the Gith citadel gets attacked by a 3rd party rival or whatever, providing a distraction and/or possibly evening the odds for the party in the short term, but adding an extra level of challenge long term because now they have to escape two factions, not just one. Again, that’s just one example, get creative.
The other thing to remember is that it’s the DM’s job to place challenges in front of the party, it’s the players’ job to figure out how to overcome those challenges. You don’t have to know how they’re going to succeed, in fact you can’t because then you put a finite and limited path to success on them and that’s what’s not fair. The roads to success should be myriad, but no DM can ever possibly plan for them all. I regularly through challenges at my players with absolutely no idea how they could ever possibly succeed and simply put faith in them to figure out a way. You don’t have to know how they could ever possibly succeed, that’s not your job. It’s just your job to place the challenge before them.
You don't have to cope with them going head-first without any preparation.
If there are magical wards and they don't cast detect magic or otherwise even consider scouting out the area, then they'll have to suffer the consequences - and maybe next time they'll do a little more research before heading in. (Retreat is always an option, so that they can recover and try again later.)
I'm surprised the artifact wasn't in an area shielded from scrying.
Find the Path only finds a specific fixed (not moving) location not objects.
You could point out some obvious defences that they might notice with Perception checks, which might suggest to them that there more research is required. (A faint shimmer around the whole stronghold - suggesting that perhaps they should find out what the magical shimmer is actually doing.)
Yeah I think the primary mistake here is saying yes to Find the Path. It can't find objects, and if you went through all the trouble to protect a stronghold from teleportation then by the same logic you'd probably also protect it from divination magic like FtP.
Occasionally when the players are being reckless I will have the wisest character roll a wisdom check - just because the players dumped wisdom doesn't mean their characters did. You can roll this behind the screen if you don't want to be obvious about it. A reasonable success might give that character a feeling that there may be consequences to just rushing in, and perhaps they should think things through a bit more. If they still ignore that, you can rain down consequences on them guilt-free.
1. Let them know that the place blocks planeshift as soon as they get inside
2. Prep what happens when the TPK happens. Like they wake up one by one and are being interrogated as illithid spies. Then have mind flayers attack so they can escape (or help) in the ensuing chaos
Just a couple extra comments ... I think the above comments are great.
1) You could allow an arcana check to notice the change in the "weave" as they enter the city. They may not know what is different but they might spend some time trying to figure it out. Magical traps are supposed to be detectable and in some cases disarmed using the arcana skill so knowledge of magic in this context should be useful. I wouldn't necessarily tell them what the effect is but letting them know something might be up foreshadows any actions that happen later.
2) It doesn't need to be a TPK. Intelligent enemies will likely, at least, want to interrogate these interlopers. Why is someone searching for this artifact? Who sent them? Is there a plan afoot by their enemies. The Githyanki could use Speak with Dead afterward but it is very unreliable. Zone of Truth and other methods on a living creature would be far more effective. As a result, the Gith will likely want at least some of the party alive. In addition to that, they may have other uses for a group of failed adventurers. Suicide missions, gladiatorial entertainment .. the list is quite long. Defeated adventurers can be valuable - dead ones are worth nothing except whatever equipment they happened to be carrying ... and they get that whether the adventurers are dead or alive. Alive is just a bonus. Whether the PCs can do anything to capitalize on still being alive might be questionable - it certainly wouldn't be easy - but a TPK, even if the party loses, should never be a guarantee unless they are fighting something that just kills and doesn't think.
If that was how it worked from the beginning, I wouldn't change it to account for player behavior, just like how if the players had thought of something that would make the mission easier, I wouldn't change how it worked to be harder and rob them of the rewards for good problem solving.
It's fair because you gave the players the opportunity to learn the vital information. They could have learned it, but they chose not to. In order for choices to retain weight, I wouldn't change the encounter.
Sorry for the vague title, was struggling to explain it concisely. The issue is this:
The party is hunting down an artifact in the astral sea, now within a Githyanki stronghold. I was expecting the party to find some old contacts who would tell them where the stronghold is and some info on it, including that the area immediately nearby is protected against teleportation and plane shift magic, which I think is a reasonable protection for a magically advanced civilization in the astral sea.
However the party instead managed to use find the path to head straight there, and are now outside the stronghold about to jump headfirst into it without an y knowledge, expecting to be able to get the artifact and then simply plane shift out of danger. So I am wondering if people think this is fair, as they haven't had a lot of opportunity to find out info on the city, but at the same time they didnt really make an effort to.
As I see it there are three things I could do; Just leave things as is and give them a nasty surprise to work out, remove it and just move on, or give our wizard an arcana check to notice the 'change in the air' or something similar.
So I was curious how other people would handle this. Basically deciding between punishing them for not doing their research and not making it feel unfair for the party.
Thanks, in advance for any advice!
This is not only fair, it is an important element of D&D. Part of what makes D&D fun is the fact you can solve problems in multiple ways, but have to deal with the consequences of how you choose to solve problems. Go slowly and learn every piece of information before making your move? The enemy might be further along in its plan. Move quickly and try and get the minimum amount of information? You might miss out on something critical.
However, while it is fair, you also need to take your particular party into account. There are some players who are, for lack of a better descriptor, a bit thin-skinned and might see this as “player versus DM” though it is decidedly not. I would generally just explain to any players that feel unfairly treated that the design was made in advance (these players often feel the detriment was created last minute just to punish players). If push comes to shove, you also have your date stamped forum post proving this was something established before their actions, not an impromptu decision just to spoil their plans.
Overall, yes, it is fair; but just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something. The actual decision is going to come down to your individual player-DM dynamic, and that is not a choice we strangers on the internet can make for you.
This is a pretty perfect answer I wont lie, thank you. The only thing that is making me hesitate is that if this goes sideways it will end in a TPK.
I completely agree with Caerwyn_Glyndwr. I do have two things I would like to add that may help you in this situation.
I hope that helps.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
You don't have to cope with them going head-first without any preparation.
If there are magical wards and they don't cast detect magic or otherwise even consider scouting out the area, then they'll have to suffer the consequences - and maybe next time they'll do a little more research before heading in. (Retreat is always an option, so that they can recover and try again later.)
I'm surprised the artifact wasn't in an area shielded from scrying.
Find the Path only finds a specific fixed (not moving) location not objects.
Locate Object only finds objects within 1,000 feet.
You could point out some obvious defences that they might notice with Perception checks, which might suggest to them that there more research is required. (A faint shimmer around the whole stronghold - suggesting that perhaps they should find out what the magical shimmer is actually doing.)
Yeah I think the primary mistake here is saying yes to Find the Path. It can't find objects, and if you went through all the trouble to protect a stronghold from teleportation then by the same logic you'd probably also protect it from divination magic like FtP.
Occasionally when the players are being reckless I will have the wisest character roll a wisdom check - just because the players dumped wisdom doesn't mean their characters did. You can roll this behind the screen if you don't want to be obvious about it. A reasonable success might give that character a feeling that there may be consequences to just rushing in, and perhaps they should think things through a bit more. If they still ignore that, you can rain down consequences on them guilt-free.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I would do 2 things:
1. Let them know that the place blocks planeshift as soon as they get inside
2. Prep what happens when the TPK happens. Like they wake up one by one and are being interrogated as illithid spies. Then have mind flayers attack so they can escape (or help) in the ensuing chaos
Just a couple extra comments ... I think the above comments are great.
1) You could allow an arcana check to notice the change in the "weave" as they enter the city. They may not know what is different but they might spend some time trying to figure it out. Magical traps are supposed to be detectable and in some cases disarmed using the arcana skill so knowledge of magic in this context should be useful. I wouldn't necessarily tell them what the effect is but letting them know something might be up foreshadows any actions that happen later.
2) It doesn't need to be a TPK. Intelligent enemies will likely, at least, want to interrogate these interlopers. Why is someone searching for this artifact? Who sent them? Is there a plan afoot by their enemies. The Githyanki could use Speak with Dead afterward but it is very unreliable. Zone of Truth and other methods on a living creature would be far more effective. As a result, the Gith will likely want at least some of the party alive. In addition to that, they may have other uses for a group of failed adventurers. Suicide missions, gladiatorial entertainment .. the list is quite long. Defeated adventurers can be valuable - dead ones are worth nothing except whatever equipment they happened to be carrying ... and they get that whether the adventurers are dead or alive. Alive is just a bonus. Whether the PCs can do anything to capitalize on still being alive might be questionable - it certainly wouldn't be easy - but a TPK, even if the party loses, should never be a guarantee unless they are fighting something that just kills and doesn't think.
If that was how it worked from the beginning, I wouldn't change it to account for player behavior, just like how if the players had thought of something that would make the mission easier, I wouldn't change how it worked to be harder and rob them of the rewards for good problem solving.
It's fair because you gave the players the opportunity to learn the vital information. They could have learned it, but they chose not to. In order for choices to retain weight, I wouldn't change the encounter.
Doesn’t need to be a TPK, have the Gith capture the characters and have it become a prison escape.