Im looking for ways to equalize the bell curve To me, the most obvious way to do so is to add an additional spell list ala the aberrant mind and clockwork soul. What everyone's thoughts on that? Would it be appropriate and keep things on par or would it push the subclass too far? What spells would you guys pick for the subclass specific spell list?
My thoughts are:
1st level: absorb elements, shield, chromatic orb (2 of the 3 and a cantrip of the damage type of their ancestry)
3rd level: dragon breath, levitate, gust of wind (2 of the 3)
5th level: fear, fly,
7th: charm monster, greater invisibility
9th: summon draconic spirit, telekinesis
The 7th and 9th level options are tough. Thoughts on all of this everyone?
I mean - why do Draconic Sorcerers want to have access to the spell if they can get to truly fly on a higher level, similar to absorb elements - a spell they can already learn, and for a feature to what their own ancestry lets them have a class feature of their own: sorcery points for elemental resistance.
Additionally, considering this should be an "expanded' spell list, Shield, Chromatic and Absorb elements are spells already on the sorc class.
Fear does fit thematically, but there is still something that makes me iffy about the rest - I will have a look around later, but it'd probably require a play-around similar to what Druid Circle gets
The expanded aspect is that they are known in addition to the standard number of sorcery spells known. my list was just come thoughts, I’m VERY open to other ideas.
I mean, by itself, most spells sound good, but the issues around come from spells already on the sorc list, or spells that are overshadowed by class features - so probably a (bad) option would be looking for spells that could offer a play-around with the draconic's playstyle (Investiture of Flame [already know that its a lv6 spell and not part of the standard number of spells] but using the bloodline damage type?), like, have a smaller list of spells but already defaulted to only work on a specific damage type.
Like, f.e, you could get Fire Shield (and choose one of the two resistances) but the damage it deals is always the one from your ancestry.
Maybe could make it like some sort of innate spells to your draconic bloodline and make them usable once per long rest at will, and then through spellslots/sorc points, but limit their number to one per spell level
Why would it be bad to add spells that play around with the draconic bloodline? That’s what the aberrant mind does with all the mind/psychic stuff…
the hard part o think about choosing spells are ones that are thematic but don’t orient to a specific elemental type since you that as a choice with the dragon type, even though let’s face it pretty much everyone takes red or gold dragon. Which would make the spell choices easy if that were the only options. Lol
but hear me out - spells like absorb elements, fear, charm monsters and fly fall short when you check the draconic sorcerer subclass abilities - to where I suggest spells that play around that, not doing the same they do, but doing something that can help instead - and considering that maybe giving them a whole additional spell list could not be the best call, making them have a "spellcasting lineage" as some dragons can be variant'd into spellcasters, what if you could have them cast 1 spell on their benefitial type?
Like, let's say they get, for spells, Magic Missile, Fireball, Fire Shield, and etc. etc. - but the damage types are those for the draconic bloodline, meaning you could have "free" Magic Missiles dealing fire, lightning or cold damage, or a fireball dealing your draconic damage without needing to transmute it, or a Fire Shield that, despite protecting you from cold damage, does lightning damage to your enemies as you are a lightning dragon, etc.
The way my group look like we're running it is along the lines of this:
Give Sorcerers an additional known spell of each levels 1-5
Not two for now but that's mostly to check how that balances and plays, how people feel with it, etc
Not specifying a particular spell you start so you just choose one instead from the available options (see next bullet point)
There's enough selection that you can just swap it as you want anyway.
Limiting spell selection for the additional known spells based on the Origin of the Sorcerer:
Draconic - Evocation and Transmutation schools only, but it can be from both the Sorcerer and Wizard lists.
Wild Magic - No school restriction, but it's Sorcerer list only
etc
By doing this it lets people build their own Sorcerer their own way. They get a bit more flexibility in what aspects of their Origin which they want to lean in to, and if you really wanted a particular spell to be on the list then whoever was DMing could just allow that anyway if they wanted.
Not specifying a particular spell you start so you just choose one instead from the available options (see next bullet point)
There's enough selection that you can just swap it as you want anyway.
Formating hates me - but this is too powerful imo - freedom of choice that can be swapped at will, by how it sounds here is too good for a subclass and a class that is all about inheritance.
In my opinion, this class should play aroubd with elemental spells, modified to suit the dragon bloodline:
Magic Missile (Element of Dragon) or a small list of lv1 spells, from which you only pick one, and which you can use once per day/lr at will (spellslots allowed), and when you cast them, they are only on the element of your dragon blood.
Dragon Breath could be a choice for lv2, but maybe a bit too on the nose, and though flavored, it probably wouldn't see much use.
Lv3? Lightning Bolt f.e., but using the dragon's elemental type - and before you say "Transmuted Spell" - do note you could use this spell once per day with your bloodline powah without spending sorcery points on the element you should be good at!
Lv4? Fire Shield - still choosing whether you resist fire or cold (a turn down for the fire genasi white/silver dragon bloodline), but dealing the element's damage instead - lightning shield, acid shield, etc etc.
so 1 additional spell per class level or per spell level? the initial way I thought was the aberrant mind way and every caster level jump, up to 5th level, would give 2 spells total, equal to 1 per level.
so 1 additional spell per class level or per spell level? the initial way I thought was the aberrant mind way and every caster level jump, up to 5th level, would give 2 spells total, equal to 1 per level.
Per Spell Level. So at Class Levels 1,3,5,7,9 you get to pick an additional spell which complies with the restrictions.
Formating hates me - but this is too powerful imo - freedom of choice that can be swapped at will, by how it sounds here is too good for a subclass and a class that is all about inheritance.
In my opinion, this class should play aroubd with elemental spells, modified to suit the dragon bloodline:
Magic Missile (Element of Dragon) or a small list of lv1 spells, from which you only pick one, and which you can use once per day/lr at will (spellslots allowed), and when you cast them, they are only on the element of your dragon blood.
Dragon Breath could be a choice for lv2, but maybe a bit too on the nose, and though flavored, it probably wouldn't see much use.
Lv3? Lightning Bolt f.e., but using the dragon's elemental type - and before you say "Transmuted Spell" - do note you could use this spell once per day with your bloodline powah without spending sorcery points on the element you should be good at!
Lv4? Fire Shield - still choosing whether you resist fire or cold (a turn down for the fire genasi white/silver dragon bloodline), but dealing the element's damage instead - lightning shield, acid shield, etc etc.
I feel that pain with formatting.
Our thinking was that you have the option to change it at each level up (like normal changes) but you wouldn't swap it for a higher level spell. So, as an example, that additional level 1 spell known which you gain at level 1 is always going to be a level 1 spell from the following list:
We felt that if you wanted to pick something not aligned with your particular ancestry then that's on you, but there are choices you can make from there which should fit in with the flavour of the subclass and free up more choices for your regular spell selection. You're not gaining more spell slots/casting directly with SP, just gaining a bit more flexibility from a few more spells known.
Our thinking was that you have the option to change it at each level up (like normal changes) but you wouldn't swap it for a higher level spell. So, as an example, that additional level 1 spell known which you gain at level 1 is always going to be a level 1 spell from the following list:
We felt that if you wanted to pick something not aligned with your particular ancestry then that's on you, but there are choices you can make from there which should fit in with the flavour of the subclass and free up more choices for your regular spell selection. You're not gaining more spell slots/casting directly with SP, just gaining a bit more flexibility from a few more spells known.
I still hate formating.
Now, there's one thing I was thinking about (and kept spamming relentlessly) - which probably could make each draconic ancestor variant "unique" by itself - and that would be getting that spell to do the damage type of your ancestor (and bonk Scribes in the head) to get Fire Catapult, Lightning Jim's Magic Missiles, Acid Frost Fingers, etc. etc., but I feel like these extra spells should be damage-type reliant, as the class by itself gets Draconic Pressence and wings.
When I try and put together home-brew I try and use as few additional home-brew elements as possible. So id be reluctant to change spell damage types. Doing so would make black dragons with acid one of the strongest options due to the low prevalence of resistant and immunity to acid damage. Id rather leave damage types alone concentrate of other spells that overall fit the theme, specific ancestry agnostic.
A major strength of the Aberrant/Clockwork features is the retraining. These subclasses get access to any spell within two schools on the warlock, wizard, and sorcerer lists. So the default list, while providing a nice thematic suggestion, is not set in stone for a sorcerer's career and thus only a part of the benefit of the feature. This also makes overlapping with class features less of a big deal, since obsoleted spells can simply be retrained. Seems silly to deny you flight at level 5 because you'll get it at 14.
I think the list posted at the top is a good start. I would just pick two instead of "choose two of three," especially since they can retrain it anyway. I'd limit the retraining to evocation and either transmutation or conjuration. It's certainly helpful if the spells you provide already land outside of the sorcerer list, but it's not necessary. I could see elemental bane and conjure elemental as fitting in there somewhere.
And I don't think any of this makes the subclass too strong - as it is now, Aberrant Mind and Clockwork could hold their own against any of the other sorcerer subclasses even without the extra spells. All the subs really should get them.
Honestly, I think you could do something more interesting than just more spells. Some of the more “draconic” spells are a little redundant, or don’t fit any specific ancestry well. There are other ways of adjusting Sorcerers upwards besides adding spells. (Some got discussed recently here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/111721-no-reward-sorcerer-after-short-rest) However, one of the more interesting bumps I have ever heard of specifically for Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers was to give them a Pseudodragon (familiar variant) at 1st level as a class feature they could use whenever they finished a long rest. At the time it just didn’t work, but since Tasha’s came out I have been thinking about giving the little critter the (PB) treatment. That would let it scale as the sorcerer leveled up. Between that and giving the Sorcerer a bonus action to command it to attack (like Artificers get for their [Tooltip Not Found]), I think it might just be the ticket.
Given that Sorcerers lost a chunk of uniqueness between 3.5 and 5 (everyone is now functionally a spontaneous caster) my group also discussed doing this as a basic feature for all Sorcerers which comes online at the same time as Font of Magic. We've not tried it out yet though.
EDIT: Damn, the original image was small. It's larger now.
Ooh, I really like that. Now that’s what I call “spontaneous” casting. 👏👏👏 Well done. (Too bad it’s extra perfect for Wild Magic Sorcerers (since I hates wild magic so, nasty wild magesss… *cough, golum*), but for them this feature should automatically trigger a Wild Surge.)
Although, I did tweak it a little for my group just to clarify some stuff, and help encourage the party to short rest.
Weave Manipulation
2nd-level Sorcerer feature
You can use your innate connection to the weave to cast spells currently unknown to you. As an action, choose a spell from the sorcerer spell list with a casting time of 1 action. The spell must be of a level you can already learn, and no higher than 5th level. The spell is cast at its lowest level, and costs a number of sorcery points required to create a spell slot of the same level. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Ooh, I really like that. Now that’s what I call “spontaneous” casting. 👏👏👏 Well done. (Too bad it’s extra perfect for Wild Magic Sorcerers (since I hates wild magic so, nasty wild magesss… *cough, golum*), but for them this feature should automatically trigger a Wild Surge.)
Although, I did tweak it a little for my group just to clarify some stuff, and help encourage the party to short rest.
Weave Manipulation
2nd-level Sorcerer feature
You can use your innate connection to the weave to cast spells currently unknown to you. As an action, choose a spell from the sorcerer spell list with a casting time of 1 action. The spell must be of a level you can already learn, and no higher than 5th level. The spell is cast at its lowest level, and costs a number of sorcery points required to create a spell slot of the same level. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
I actually like the weave manipulation thing, I think it would work better though if it was just tied to the use of sorcery points or a rest and not both.
:eyes: That is actually sweet and nice (the Weave Manip), though I wonder if it could be used with reaction spells (even if it literally says it doesn't).
And the Pseudodragon is a nice thing as well, although I'm not sure if it could interfere with their current BA economy (I assume it wouldn't be a big issue on higher levels) as they would be playing around their sorcery points for spell slot building/recovery.
Edit: Not making quotes because I can't get over mobile formatting.
One way I just thought of to make the weave manip good and not so good is to make it a metamagic option available to all but the clockwork and aberrant mind subclasses. or would that be too much? I figured it would help balance since it would eat a metamagic slot so it would cut down on some of the power, but also fit since its fueled by metamagic.
Side question on this line, is there a way in dnd beyond home-brew to make metamagics?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Im looking for ways to equalize the bell curve To me, the most obvious way to do so is to add an additional spell list ala the aberrant mind and clockwork soul. What everyone's thoughts on that? Would it be appropriate and keep things on par or would it push the subclass too far? What spells would you guys pick for the subclass specific spell list?
My thoughts are:
1st level: absorb elements, shield, chromatic orb (2 of the 3 and a cantrip of the damage type of their ancestry)
3rd level: dragon breath, levitate, gust of wind (2 of the 3)
5th level: fear, fly,
7th: charm monster, greater invisibility
9th: summon draconic spirit, telekinesis
The 7th and 9th level options are tough. Thoughts on all of this everyone?
I mean - why do Draconic Sorcerers want to have access to the spell if they can get to truly fly on a higher level, similar to absorb elements - a spell they can already learn, and for a feature to what their own ancestry lets them have a class feature of their own: sorcery points for elemental resistance.
Additionally, considering this should be an "expanded' spell list, Shield, Chromatic and Absorb elements are spells already on the sorc class.
Fear does fit thematically, but there is still something that makes me iffy about the rest - I will have a look around later, but it'd probably require a play-around similar to what Druid Circle gets
Also Draconic Presence, kek
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
The expanded aspect is that they are known in addition to the standard number of sorcery spells known.
my list was just come thoughts, I’m VERY open to other ideas.
I mean, by itself, most spells sound good, but the issues around come from spells already on the sorc list, or spells that are overshadowed by class features - so probably a (bad) option would be looking for spells that could offer a play-around with the draconic's playstyle (Investiture of Flame [already know that its a lv6 spell and not part of the standard number of spells] but using the bloodline damage type?), like, have a smaller list of spells but already defaulted to only work on a specific damage type.
Like, f.e, you could get Fire Shield (and choose one of the two resistances) but the damage it deals is always the one from your ancestry.
Maybe could make it like some sort of innate spells to your draconic bloodline and make them usable once per long rest at will, and then through spellslots/sorc points, but limit their number to one per spell level
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
Why would it be bad to add spells that play around with the draconic bloodline? That’s what the aberrant mind does with all the mind/psychic stuff…
the hard part o think about choosing spells are ones that are thematic but don’t orient to a specific elemental type since you that as a choice with the dragon type, even though let’s face it pretty much everyone takes red or gold dragon. Which would make the spell choices easy if that were the only options. Lol
but hear me out - spells like absorb elements, fear, charm monsters and fly fall short when you check the draconic sorcerer subclass abilities - to where I suggest spells that play around that, not doing the same they do, but doing something that can help instead - and considering that maybe giving them a whole additional spell list could not be the best call, making them have a "spellcasting lineage" as some dragons can be variant'd into spellcasters, what if you could have them cast 1 spell on their benefitial type?
Like, let's say they get, for spells, Magic Missile, Fireball, Fire Shield, and etc. etc. - but the damage types are those for the draconic bloodline, meaning you could have "free" Magic Missiles dealing fire, lightning or cold damage, or a fireball dealing your draconic damage without needing to transmute it, or a Fire Shield that, despite protecting you from cold damage, does lightning damage to your enemies as you are a lightning dragon, etc.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
The way my group look like we're running it is along the lines of this:
By doing this it lets people build their own Sorcerer their own way. They get a bit more flexibility in what aspects of their Origin which they want to lean in to, and if you really wanted a particular spell to be on the list then whoever was DMing could just allow that anyway if they wanted.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
With this, I'm fine - two spells would probably invade too much on the other subclasses' territory, as draconic already gets some skills themselves.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
so 1 additional spell per class level or per spell level? the initial way I thought was the aberrant mind way and every caster level jump, up to 5th level, would give 2 spells total, equal to 1 per level.
Per Spell Level. So at Class Levels 1,3,5,7,9 you get to pick an additional spell which complies with the restrictions.
I feel that pain with formatting.
Our thinking was that you have the option to change it at each level up (like normal changes) but you wouldn't swap it for a higher level spell. So, as an example, that additional level 1 spell known which you gain at level 1 is always going to be a level 1 spell from the following list:
Burning Hands
Catapult
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Earth Tremor
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Frost Fingers
Jim’s Magic Missile
Jump
Longstrider
Magic Missile
Tasha's Caustic Brew
Thunderwave
Witch Bolt
We felt that if you wanted to pick something not aligned with your particular ancestry then that's on you, but there are choices you can make from there which should fit in with the flavour of the subclass and free up more choices for your regular spell selection. You're not gaining more spell slots/casting directly with SP, just gaining a bit more flexibility from a few more spells known.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
I still hate formating.
Now, there's one thing I was thinking about (and kept spamming relentlessly) - which probably could make each draconic ancestor variant "unique" by itself - and that would be getting that spell to do the damage type of your ancestor (and bonk Scribes in the head) to get Fire Catapult, Lightning Jim's Magic Missiles, Acid Frost Fingers, etc. etc., but I feel like these extra spells should be damage-type reliant, as the class by itself gets Draconic Pressence and wings.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
When I try and put together home-brew I try and use as few additional home-brew elements as possible. So id be reluctant to change spell damage types. Doing so would make black dragons with acid one of the strongest options due to the low prevalence of resistant and immunity to acid damage. Id rather leave damage types alone concentrate of other spells that overall fit the theme, specific ancestry agnostic.
A major strength of the Aberrant/Clockwork features is the retraining. These subclasses get access to any spell within two schools on the warlock, wizard, and sorcerer lists. So the default list, while providing a nice thematic suggestion, is not set in stone for a sorcerer's career and thus only a part of the benefit of the feature. This also makes overlapping with class features less of a big deal, since obsoleted spells can simply be retrained. Seems silly to deny you flight at level 5 because you'll get it at 14.
I think the list posted at the top is a good start. I would just pick two instead of "choose two of three," especially since they can retrain it anyway. I'd limit the retraining to evocation and either transmutation or conjuration. It's certainly helpful if the spells you provide already land outside of the sorcerer list, but it's not necessary. I could see elemental bane and conjure elemental as fitting in there somewhere.
And I don't think any of this makes the subclass too strong - as it is now, Aberrant Mind and Clockwork could hold their own against any of the other sorcerer subclasses even without the extra spells. All the subs really should get them.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Honestly, I think you could do something more interesting than just more spells. Some of the more “draconic” spells are a little redundant, or don’t fit any specific ancestry well. There are other ways of adjusting Sorcerers upwards besides adding spells. (Some got discussed recently here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/111721-no-reward-sorcerer-after-short-rest) However, one of the more interesting bumps I have ever heard of specifically for Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers was to give them a Pseudodragon (familiar variant) at 1st level as a class feature they could use whenever they finished a long rest. At the time it just didn’t work, but since Tasha’s came out I have been thinking about giving the little critter the (PB) treatment. That would let it scale as the sorcerer leveled up. Between that and giving the Sorcerer a bonus action to command it to attack (like Artificers get for their [Tooltip Not Found]), I think it might just be the ticket.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Given that Sorcerers lost a chunk of uniqueness between 3.5 and 5 (everyone is now functionally a spontaneous caster) my group also discussed doing this as a basic feature for all Sorcerers which comes online at the same time as Font of Magic. We've not tried it out yet though.
EDIT: Damn, the original image was small. It's larger now.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
Ooh, I really like that. Now that’s what I call “spontaneous” casting. 👏👏👏 Well done. (Too bad it’s extra perfect for Wild Magic Sorcerers (since I hates wild magic so, nasty wild magesss… *cough, golum*), but for them this feature should automatically trigger a Wild Surge.)
Although, I did tweak it a little for my group just to clarify some stuff, and help encourage the party to short rest.
Weave Manipulation
2nd-level Sorcerer feature
You can use your innate connection to the weave to cast spells currently unknown to you. As an action, choose a spell from the sorcerer spell list with a casting time of 1 action. The spell must be of a level you can already learn, and no higher than 5th level. The spell is cast at its lowest level, and costs a number of sorcery points required to create a spell slot of the same level. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
👍 let me know how it plays!
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
I actually like the weave manipulation thing, I think it would work better though if it was just tied to the use of sorcery points or a rest and not both.
:eyes: That is actually sweet and nice (the Weave Manip), though I wonder if it could be used with reaction spells (even if it literally says it doesn't).
And the Pseudodragon is a nice thing as well, although I'm not sure if it could interfere with their current BA economy (I assume it wouldn't be a big issue on higher levels) as they would be playing around their sorcery points for spell slot building/recovery.
Edit: Not making quotes because I can't get over mobile formatting.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
One way I just thought of to make the weave manip good and not so good is to make it a metamagic option available to all but the clockwork and aberrant mind subclasses. or would that be too much? I figured it would help balance since it would eat a metamagic slot so it would cut down on some of the power, but also fit since its fueled by metamagic.
Side question on this line, is there a way in dnd beyond home-brew to make metamagics?