I have been thinking of a buff for the Wizard School of Evocation 6th level ability "Potent Cantrip". I have four ideas. Which do you all like best, from a fun factor and a game balance factor.
1) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you hit a target with an evocation cantrip that requires an attack roll, you deal max damage.
2) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you make an attack roll for an evocation cantrip, you have advantage on the attack roll.
3) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, when the wizard casts an evocation cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures.
4) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, the wizard may cast an evocation cantrip as a bonus action.
They are all slightly too powerful. #3) is similar to the Cleric of Death ability:
ReaperDMG p96
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
I could see doing any of these with a limit of 3/day.
You totally ignored the actual effects of the ability. Did not mention even ONE of them. All you did was compare the 3rd level spell with a cantrip, and surprise surprise the 3rd level spell is better than the cantrip. Then claimed I am wrong abut the ability being over-powered because cantrips are not as good as 3rd level spell.s
The comparison is not Fireball vs Fire bolt, but Fire bolt with the ability vs Fire Bolt without the ability. Fireball is a totally different spell, considered to be slightly overpowered for 3rd level, and veryhard to compare as it a) has a limited number of castings and b) gets multiple targets.
Option 1) The damage comparison is 2d10 that must hit vs 20 that must hit. 11 average damage goes to 20. On TOP of the existing power. The 10th level ability of the evocation wizard only adds your Int modifier (though to all evocation spells, not just cantrips.) That should be about +5 or maybe 6 if you get a Tome.
So the extra bit he added on top of the existing cantrip 6th level subclass ability is better than the existing 10th level ability. And they stack. YES IT IS OVERPOWERED.
Option 2) Granting advantage on the attack. Sorcerors get spell points that grant advantage called Seeking Spell. It has a limit of 1/day at 2nd level, maxing out at 10 x/day at 20th. His is unlimited, and I proposed a set 3/day limit.
Option 3) Already compared to Reaper effect, his is stronger.
Option 4) Quicken unlimited. Again, Sorcerors do it 1/day at 2nd, maxing out at 10/day at 20th.
His stuff is over-powered, and I stand by my limit of 3/day.
I agree that they are all too powerful. I'm curious why you want to improve the ability in the first place? Cantrips already have scaling to them and being able to deal damage with one regardless of a save is already powerful.
These are stepping all over metamagic, which is not a great idea. And they would all be too strong to include in a game I was running.
But I think the point is to buff attack roll cantrips as well as saving throw cantrips? If that was my goal, I might allow rerolling a couple damage dice for attack cantrips (although that's a metamagic thing too, it's also a mechanic found in a lot of other places).
Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you hit a target with an evocation cantrip, you can treat a roll of a 1 on any of the damage dice as if it were a 2.
Or perhaps something like this:
Potent Cantrip
Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you hit a target with an evocation cantrip that requires an attack roll, the attack scores a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
The first option increases the guaranteed minimum damage roll for all Evocation cantrips without raising the maximum damage at all. (Very useful if you consistently roll 💩 for damage rolls like I do). The second one only affects Evocation attack cantrips, and only matters 5% of the time, but could potentially add up to a lot of additional damage. (Very useful if you have the Devil’s own luck like my table’s main GM. I’ve seen him crit on a 19 four times in one combat, and that was in addition to the two nat 20 crits he rolled. 🙄)
Evocation doesnt really need a buff if you are not running a heavily homebrewed game and cantrips fall off for wizards fairly quickly intentionally as using spells slots should almost always be a better option. Cantrips just something to fill the extra action that a wizard naturally has between big spells. It's not a good idea to make cantrips competitive with spells as that really takes away from martial who are more about that consistent damage.
If I was to make potent cantrips more interesting then it would be about bringing those spells in and spending slots. The trigger would almost certainly be " when casting a spell of first level or higher" or " when concentrating on a spell of first level of higher" additionally you might limit it to evocation spells. The buff itself would be something like:
Your next cantrip does additional damage
Your next cantrip has advantage on the attack or the target has disadvantage on the save
You can cast a cantrip as a bonus action
Your cantrip ignores resistance and immunities
Another option is spell smites. Currently no class can smite on a cantrip or spell, I.e burn a slot for extra damage. Most of the time it wouldn't be worth it but when you get that crit...
Some changes which are more side grades for more player freedom that you wouldn't need to limit are:
increase the selection of damaging cantrips you can learn/ pick from. this could be letting them copy cantrip formulas from other classes as per tasha's or letting them pick an extra damage cantrip from another class that becomes a wizard cantrip
apply the half damage on attack rolls as well
You can concentrate on a cantrip and a spell of level 1 or higher at the same time. ( lets players use create bonfire more reliably)
I kind of feel arguments that complain about stepping on the toes of metamagic are not valid. There are many wizards that get "metamagic" abilities at will with parameters. Off the top of my head.
1) Enchanters get twin at will
2) Evokers get carefull at will
3) Scribes get transmuted at will
The reason a buff is needed for Potent is it really only affects two evocation cantrips (I know it can affect other none evocation cantrip).
The flavor of Potent is that cantrips are harder to resist, presumably for their strength.
I feel this should in some way carry over to attack roll evocation spells. The flavor of Evocation wizards is to be a blaster, so it seems far they would concentrate on doing consistent damage.
As such some buff that either:
A) Increase chance to hit. They are stronger and punch through defense better.
B) Increase damage on hit. They are stronger and do more damage.
Perhaps giving either double proficency to hit or adding proficiency to damage. I would lean to proficiency to damage as that seems simple and more in flavor.
My argument was not that they step on the toes of metamagics.
Instead I am saying that you are taking the existing power and adding to it abilities that are BETTER than metamagics. Abilities that dupe metamagics typically have limits like x/rest, to replace the metamagic point system.
The metamagics are just clear power comparisons. Nothing wrong with duping metamagics - if that is the ENTIRE ability and also has some kind of limits. You are just pumping everything up far and beyond what is reasonable.
Again, almost all the wizard abilities that dupe metamagic are at-will.
Personally, I feel like Sorcerer should get an at-will metamagic ability, similar to how wizards get at will 1st and 2nd level spells. But that is another discussion.
When you look at all the "school" subclass 6th level abilities, they are all way more usefull than being able to always do 6 dm (from frostbute) at 6th level. If you add proficiency score to damage than you do an extra 3 dm per turn on attack roll cantrips at 6th level and max at an extra 6 dm at 17th. Hardly excessive. If anything still a little underpowered compared to the versatility of the other school abilities.
Nothing wrong with duping metamagics - if that is the ENTIRE ability and also has some kind of limits.
I mean I wouldn't say there's NOTHING wrong with it, especially when added to a class that already imitates Careful Spell. It's literally the only thing sorcerers have. But yeah they are convenient benchmarks for appropriate power levels.
I actually like Solarsyphon's argument so I'm switching to that team. Wizards - especially evocation wizards - aren't meant to be pumping out beefy cantrips. They pack enough power in their spell slots, especially considering you already get a cantrip boost at 10. Is the current level 6 ability not that great? Yes. Is the whole subclass behind the curve for it? No.
I have been thinking of a buff for the Wizard School of Evocation 6th level ability "Potent Cantrip". I have four ideas. Which do you all like best, from a fun factor and a game balance factor.
1) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you hit a target with an evocation cantrip that requires an attack roll, you deal max damage.
2) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, whenever you make an attack roll for an evocation cantrip, you have advantage on the attack roll.
3) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, when the wizard casts an evocation cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures.
4) POTENT CANTRIP: Starting at 6th level, your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against your cantrip, the creature takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
In addition, the wizard may cast an evocation cantrip as a bonus action.
They are all slightly too powerful. #3) is similar to the Cleric of Death ability:
I could see doing any of these with a limit of 3/day.
So they cast Fireball for 28 damage and then follow up with a Firebolt that can hit for 2d10 damage?
Totally overpowered!
The one that gives advantage on the attack roll sounds ok to me, since it doesn't increase the damage output of the attack.
You totally ignored the actual effects of the ability. Did not mention even ONE of them. All you did was compare the 3rd level spell with a cantrip, and surprise surprise the 3rd level spell is better than the cantrip. Then claimed I am wrong abut the ability being over-powered because cantrips are not as good as 3rd level spell.s
The comparison is not Fireball vs Fire bolt, but Fire bolt with the ability vs Fire Bolt without the ability. Fireball is a totally different spell, considered to be slightly overpowered for 3rd level, and veryhard to compare as it a) has a limited number of castings and b) gets multiple targets.
Option 1) The damage comparison is 2d10 that must hit vs 20 that must hit. 11 average damage goes to 20. On TOP of the existing power. The 10th level ability of the evocation wizard only adds your Int modifier (though to all evocation spells, not just cantrips.) That should be about +5 or maybe 6 if you get a Tome.
So the extra bit he added on top of the existing cantrip 6th level subclass ability is better than the existing 10th level ability. And they stack. YES IT IS OVERPOWERED.
Option 2) Granting advantage on the attack. Sorcerors get spell points that grant advantage called Seeking Spell. It has a limit of 1/day at 2nd level, maxing out at 10 x/day at 20th. His is unlimited, and I proposed a set 3/day limit.
Option 3) Already compared to Reaper effect, his is stronger.
Option 4) Quicken unlimited. Again, Sorcerors do it 1/day at 2nd, maxing out at 10/day at 20th.
His stuff is over-powered, and I stand by my limit of 3/day.
I agree that they are all too powerful. I'm curious why you want to improve the ability in the first place? Cantrips already have scaling to them and being able to deal damage with one regardless of a save is already powerful.
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These are stepping all over metamagic, which is not a great idea. And they would all be too strong to include in a game I was running.
But I think the point is to buff attack roll cantrips as well as saving throw cantrips? If that was my goal, I might allow rerolling a couple damage dice for attack cantrips (although that's a metamagic thing too, it's also a mechanic found in a lot of other places).
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Why not keep it simple with something like this:
Or perhaps something like this:
The first option increases the guaranteed minimum damage roll for all Evocation cantrips without raising the maximum damage at all. (Very useful if you consistently roll 💩 for damage rolls like I do). The second one only affects Evocation attack cantrips, and only matters 5% of the time, but could potentially add up to a lot of additional damage. (Very useful if you have the Devil’s own luck like my table’s main GM. I’ve seen him crit on a 19 four times in one combat, and that was in addition to the two nat 20 crits he rolled. 🙄)
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Evocation doesnt really need a buff if you are not running a heavily homebrewed game and cantrips fall off for wizards fairly quickly intentionally as using spells slots should almost always be a better option. Cantrips just something to fill the extra action that a wizard naturally has between big spells. It's not a good idea to make cantrips competitive with spells as that really takes away from martial who are more about that consistent damage.
If I was to make potent cantrips more interesting then it would be about bringing those spells in and spending slots. The trigger would almost certainly be " when casting a spell of first level or higher" or " when concentrating on a spell of first level of higher" additionally you might limit it to evocation spells. The buff itself would be something like:
Another option is spell smites. Currently no class can smite on a cantrip or spell, I.e burn a slot for extra damage. Most of the time it wouldn't be worth it but when you get that crit...
Some changes which are more side grades for more player freedom that you wouldn't need to limit are:
I kind of feel arguments that complain about stepping on the toes of metamagic are not valid. There are many wizards that get "metamagic" abilities at will with parameters. Off the top of my head.
1) Enchanters get twin at will
2) Evokers get carefull at will
3) Scribes get transmuted at will
The reason a buff is needed for Potent is it really only affects two evocation cantrips (I know it can affect other none evocation cantrip).
The flavor of Potent is that cantrips are harder to resist, presumably for their strength.
I feel this should in some way carry over to attack roll evocation spells. The flavor of Evocation wizards is to be a blaster, so it seems far they would concentrate on doing consistent damage.
As such some buff that either:
A) Increase chance to hit. They are stronger and punch through defense better.
B) Increase damage on hit. They are stronger and do more damage.
Perhaps giving either double proficency to hit or adding proficiency to damage. I would lean to proficiency to damage as that seems simple and more in flavor.
My argument was not that they step on the toes of metamagics.
Instead I am saying that you are taking the existing power and adding to it abilities that are BETTER than metamagics. Abilities that dupe metamagics typically have limits like x/rest, to replace the metamagic point system.
The metamagics are just clear power comparisons. Nothing wrong with duping metamagics - if that is the ENTIRE ability and also has some kind of limits. You are just pumping everything up far and beyond what is reasonable.
Again, almost all the wizard abilities that dupe metamagic are at-will.
Personally, I feel like Sorcerer should get an at-will metamagic ability, similar to how wizards get at will 1st and 2nd level spells. But that is another discussion.
When you look at all the "school" subclass 6th level abilities, they are all way more usefull than being able to always do 6 dm (from frostbute) at 6th level. If you add proficiency score to damage than you do an extra 3 dm per turn on attack roll cantrips at 6th level and max at an extra 6 dm at 17th. Hardly excessive. If anything still a little underpowered compared to the versatility of the other school abilities.
I mean I wouldn't say there's NOTHING wrong with it, especially when added to a class that already imitates Careful Spell. It's literally the only thing sorcerers have. But yeah they are convenient benchmarks for appropriate power levels.
I actually like Solarsyphon's argument so I'm switching to that team. Wizards - especially evocation wizards - aren't meant to be pumping out beefy cantrips. They pack enough power in their spell slots, especially considering you already get a cantrip boost at 10. Is the current level 6 ability not that great? Yes. Is the whole subclass behind the curve for it? No.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm