Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
Telikinetic
As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
Does this mean I can hit someone pick up with crusher then immediately as a bonus action before they come down try to push them 5' back?
I don't understand the question. There is no specific interaction between the two feats. You do the movement with crusher if you qualify for that, then if you have yet to use your bonus action you can use your telekinetic ability, completely separate from the crusher.
I think you're adding additional interpretation to what crusher does than what is RAW or even likely RAI. Crusher allows you to move the target 5ft, at no point does it state anything about picking up the target, or the target being off the ground, it could just as easily and more than likely intended to be a push from the force of the strike. You can absolutely use both in succession if the pre-requisites apply, and potentially have the opponent end up 10 ft away from you, but as Conal stated, there is no interaction between the two.
Crusher doesn't specify a direction, and there is no reason it shouldn't work in an aerial combat. Thus, it should be perfectly legal to do what you're asking.
Target movement could take place as shown on the table below:
(2) NPC[Crushed + Telekinetic Shove]
(1) NPC[Crushed]
Player
(0) NPC[Start]
Since Telekenetic Shove requires that the NPC moves on a line toward or away from the player, they could be combined to lift the target up to 10 feet, which is enough to also present the risk of additional fall damage.
Clever use of Thorn Whip is another way to achieve a similar effect.
No where does it specify you cannot pick up. Other forms of forced movement such as swarm Druid make a point of stating you can't pick up this one does not.
If empty air isn't unoccupied space then it can't be occupied space when there is something there meaning your making it so flying creatures cannot be targeted by a lot of things. Fliers are strong enough already.
For me, picking up and pushing something upward are two different things. Picking up would be something more akin to a grapple.
That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using crusher to hit a target into the air then push them further into the air with telekinetic. Unless you consider the optional rule for falling in XGTE where it states "you instantly descend up to 500 feet." thus not allowing you to push a creature further into the air because it would instantly fall to the ground before you can take your bonus action to push the creature further, but that is a bit asinine and I would certainly rule it as allowing you to push the creature upwards twice. Honestly, this seems like something that you could feasibly make a low-level character build around.
Like Conal said, I think this was a misunderstanding of what was meant using the term "picking up", and I could totally see it working in that manner. Dual wield a hammer and hand crossbow and add insult to injury with a bolt in midair.
Falling rules state that you drop immediately. So I’d rule, if you want to knock someone straight up 5’, they then immediately fall back down those five feet, before your bonus action kicks in. No juggling. But that’s just the DM in me avoiding an obvious attempt to get really cheesy with the rules.
It also makes much more sense that way (to me). Otherwise the target creature is hanging in mid-air for how long?
Falling rules state that you drop immediately. So I’d rule, if you want to knock someone straight up 5’, they then immediately fall back down those five feet, before your bonus action kicks in. No juggling. But that’s just the DM in me avoiding an obvious attempt to get really cheesy with the rules.
It also makes much more sense that way (to me). Otherwise the target creature is hanging in mid-air for how long?
Yeah I'm on this side of this one. Allowing the juggle has further implications. Say a creature is out of range above a fighter's head. The fighter makes a high jump to get into range and attack it. Do you let him take all three swings at the top of his jump? Can he action surge and do three more? The way turns play out in D&D, if falling isn't instantaneous then things can get real floaty. Not that anime/BotW-style combat isn't cool, but it's typically not what people are expecting in D&D.
Remember that the turn-based nature of combat gives the illusion of time passing, but each round is meant to represent nearly simultaneous behavior for everyone involved.
Someone being in the air until their turn is only "floating" on paper. The alternative is potentially every single character popping them into the air independently, causing them to take multiple instantaneous instances of fall damage like some kind of glitching ragdoll.
Falling rules state that you drop immediately. So I’d rule, if you want to knock someone straight up 5’, they then immediately fall back down those five feet, before your bonus action kicks in. No juggling. But that’s just the DM in me avoiding an obvious attempt to get really cheesy with the rules.
It also makes much more sense that way (to me). Otherwise the target creature is hanging in mid-air for how long?
I'd rule Crusher would move it 5 feet up, fall, then Telikinetic move it 5 feet toward or away from you on the ground.
The rules disagree with you guys here. This combo is perfectly allowable.
See Chapter 9 of the PHB on what you can do on your turn, specifically about bonus actions:
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
You choose when the bonus action happens on your turn. That is black and white, unambiguous. When they're 5ft up having just been crushed is a moment in time you could, if you want, choose to use your bonus action.
It means you choose when in terms of before or after your action and move. You can mix and match the order.It does not mean you can use a bonus action to interrupt something else that is happening.
Falls happen immediately. That is also unambiguous, and is a specific rule about falls which overrules any general rule you are trying to create about bonus action timing.
If you were standing on Different heights of terrain it could work. Atleast with a bugbear and a bludgeoned weapon since they have reach.
bufbear with crusher and telekinetic feat. Moves next to an enemy creature that is 5ft higher than them, perhaps on a table or crate. Bug bear spends their action to ready an attack. The condition being the creature is successfully pushed by their own bonus action provided by the feat. If the push is successful the creature is pushed away and upward 5ft, triggering the readied action at the same time. Creature is still in reach, gets potentially thwacked by a bludgeoned attack before they fall for an additional 5ft in any direction, probably upward for an additional 1d6 fall damage and the prone condition.
Falling rules state that you drop immediately. So I’d rule, if you want to knock someone straight up 5’, they then immediately fall back down those five feet, before your bonus action kicks in. No juggling. But that’s just the DM in me avoiding an obvious attempt to get really cheesy with the rules.
It also makes much more sense that way (to me). Otherwise the target creature is hanging in mid-air for how long?
I'd rule Crusher would move it 5 feet up, fall, then Telikinetic move it 5 feet toward or away from you on the ground.
The rules disagree with you guys here. This combo is perfectly allowable.
See Chapter 9 of the PHB on what you can do on your turn, specifically about bonus actions:
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
You choose when the bonus action happens on your turn. That is black and white, unambiguous. When they're 5ft up having just been crushed is a moment in time you could, if you want, choose to use your bonus action.
You can't act during a fall, other than specific reaction such as Feather Fall to interrupt its course. Both RAW and RAI falling is instantaneous so i'd rule this combo as not doable but you are free to rule differently.
RAI
@JeremyECrawford The basic falling rules in D&D assume a fall is instantaneous. If you'd like rules for a very long fall, take a look at the section called "Falling" in "Xanathar's Guide to Everything" (p. 77).
RAW
XGtE Falling: When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet.
It means you choose when in terms of before or after your action and move. You can mix and match the order.It does not mean you can use a bonus action to interrupt something else that is happening.
Falls happen immediately. That is also unambiguous, and is a specific rule about falls which overrules any general rule you are trying to create about bonus action timing.
Do it before they fall. Unless you're arguing that there isn't a point in time when they're 5ft up, then that is the exact time you pick to use your bonus action.
It means you choose when in terms of before or after your action and move. You can mix and match the order.It does not mean you can use a bonus action to interrupt something else that is happening.
Falls happen immediately. That is also unambiguous, and is a specific rule about falls which overrules any general rule you are trying to create about bonus action timing.
Do it before they fall. Unless you're arguing that there isn't a point in time when they're 5ft up, then that is the exact time you pick to use your bonus action.
That’s right. Immediately. They’re up. They’re down. Now go ahead with your bonus action.
Note that you have to actually hit them with something that does crushing damage, for crusher to apply. Them hitting the ground is not you hitting them.
I suppose a generous DM could rule that rather than just tossing them you are throwing them at the ground so hard they bounce, but that seems a bit of a stretch.
You hit them with a weapon first.
That deals bludgeoning damage.
Which then crusher allows you to launch them 5ft. You pick: Up.
Then you choose to activate your BA TK ability right as they hit the 5ft up point. Before the fall.
Do it before they fall. Unless you're arguing that there isn't a point in time when they're 5ft up, then that is the exact time you pick to use your bonus action.
That’s right. Immediately. They’re up. {insert BA Here} They’re down. Now go ahead with your bonus action.
Bonus Actions happen on your turn when you choose for them to. Put it between the up and the down.
Do it before they fall. Unless you're arguing that there isn't a point in time when they're 5ft up, then that is the exact time you pick to use your bonus action.
That’s right. Immediately. They’re up. {insert BA Here} They’re down. Now go ahead with your bonus action.
Bonus Actions happen on your turn when you choose for them to. Put it between the up and the down.
Falls are “instantaneous” per RAW. That is a specific rule which overrules the general of bonus action happening when you choose. There is no time between the up and the down. This is not street fighter or mortal combat on an Xbox. You can’t juggle people.
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Crusher
Telikinetic
Does this mean I can hit someone pick up with crusher then immediately as a bonus action before they come down try to push them 5' back?
I don't understand the question. There is no specific interaction between the two feats. You do the movement with crusher if you qualify for that, then if you have yet to use your bonus action you can use your telekinetic ability, completely separate from the crusher.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I think you're adding additional interpretation to what crusher does than what is RAW or even likely RAI. Crusher allows you to move the target 5ft, at no point does it state anything about picking up the target, or the target being off the ground, it could just as easily and more than likely intended to be a push from the force of the strike. You can absolutely use both in succession if the pre-requisites apply, and potentially have the opponent end up 10 ft away from you, but as Conal stated, there is no interaction between the two.
Crusher doesn't specify a direction, and there is no reason it shouldn't work in an aerial combat. Thus, it should be perfectly legal to do what you're asking.
Target movement could take place as shown on the table below:
Since Telekenetic Shove requires that the NPC moves on a line toward or away from the player, they could be combined to lift the target up to 10 feet, which is enough to also present the risk of additional fall damage.
Clever use of Thorn Whip is another way to achieve a similar effect.
"you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space"
No where does it specify you cannot pick up. Other forms of forced movement such as swarm Druid make a point of stating you can't pick up this one does not.
If empty air isn't unoccupied space then it can't be occupied space when there is something there meaning your making it so flying creatures cannot be targeted by a lot of things. Fliers are strong enough already.
For me, picking up and pushing something upward are two different things. Picking up would be something more akin to a grapple.
That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using crusher to hit a target into the air then push them further into the air with telekinetic. Unless you consider the optional rule for falling in XGTE where it states "you instantly descend up to 500 feet." thus not allowing you to push a creature further into the air because it would instantly fall to the ground before you can take your bonus action to push the creature further, but that is a bit asinine and I would certainly rule it as allowing you to push the creature upwards twice. Honestly, this seems like something that you could feasibly make a low-level character build around.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Like Conal said, I think this was a misunderstanding of what was meant using the term "picking up", and I could totally see it working in that manner. Dual wield a hammer and hand crossbow and add insult to injury with a bolt in midair.
Falling rules state that you drop immediately. So I’d rule, if you want to knock someone straight up 5’, they then immediately fall back down those five feet, before your bonus action kicks in. No juggling. But that’s just the DM in me avoiding an obvious attempt to get really cheesy with the rules.
It also makes much more sense that way (to me). Otherwise the target creature is hanging in mid-air for how long?
I'd rule Crusher would move it 5 feet up, fall, then Telikinetic move it 5 feet toward or away from you on the ground.
Yeah I'm on this side of this one. Allowing the juggle has further implications. Say a creature is out of range above a fighter's head. The fighter makes a high jump to get into range and attack it. Do you let him take all three swings at the top of his jump? Can he action surge and do three more? The way turns play out in D&D, if falling isn't instantaneous then things can get real floaty. Not that anime/BotW-style combat isn't cool, but it's typically not what people are expecting in D&D.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Remember that the turn-based nature of combat gives the illusion of time passing, but each round is meant to represent nearly simultaneous behavior for everyone involved.
Someone being in the air until their turn is only "floating" on paper. The alternative is potentially every single character popping them into the air independently, causing them to take multiple instantaneous instances of fall damage like some kind of glitching ragdoll.
The rules disagree with you guys here. This combo is perfectly allowable.
See Chapter 9 of the PHB on what you can do on your turn, specifically about bonus actions:
You choose when the bonus action happens on your turn. That is black and white, unambiguous. When they're 5ft up having just been crushed is a moment in time you could, if you want, choose to use your bonus action.
I got quotes!
It means you choose when in terms of before or after your action and move. You can mix and match the order.It does not mean you can use a bonus action to interrupt something else that is happening.
Falls happen immediately. That is also unambiguous, and is a specific rule about falls which overrules any general rule you are trying to create about bonus action timing.
If you were standing on Different heights of terrain it could work. Atleast with a bugbear and a bludgeoned weapon since they have reach.
bufbear with crusher and telekinetic feat. Moves next to an enemy creature that is 5ft higher than them, perhaps on a table or crate. Bug bear spends their action to ready an attack. The condition being the creature is successfully pushed by their own bonus action provided by the feat. If the push is successful the creature is pushed away and upward 5ft, triggering the readied action at the same time. Creature is still in reach, gets potentially thwacked by a bludgeoned attack before they fall for an additional 5ft in any direction, probably upward for an additional 1d6 fall damage and the prone condition.
That’s a lot of work for a trash maneuver.
You can't act during a fall, other than specific reaction such as Feather Fall to interrupt its course. Both RAW and RAI falling is instantaneous so i'd rule this combo as not doable but you are free to rule differently.
Do it before they fall. Unless you're arguing that there isn't a point in time when they're 5ft up, then that is the exact time you pick to use your bonus action.
I got quotes!
That’s right. Immediately. They’re up. They’re down. Now go ahead with your bonus action.
I got quotes!
Bonus Actions happen on your turn when you choose for them to. Put it between the up and the down.
I got quotes!
Falls are “instantaneous” per RAW. That is a specific rule which overrules the general of bonus action happening when you choose. There is no time between the up and the down. This is not street fighter or mortal combat on an Xbox. You can’t juggle people.