since we are in the rules section, I'll ask the pedantic question. What part of RAW makes that work? why would hitting with the staff cause the oil and flask to break and spray on the target due to a melee hit with the staff?
I’ll see your pedantic question and raise you one of my own. Logically speaking, if you stuck three glass flasks to the end of a big stick and hit something with it really, really hard, how would those glass flasks not break?
Sure, but flasks incidentally breaking during an attack is very different from using a whole Action to apply the contents of a single flask to a creature. The latter sounds like some precision and thoroughness is required to do it correctly, and the former sounds like you're just as likely to set yourself on fire. Or at least only partially hit anyone which would not proc the effect.
I mean it's certainly a cool visual, but seems like quite a serious upgrade to what the staff is supposed to be.
So as the firebug that likely instigated this thread, I'll just say the best tactic is to get the oil on the target, get that oil on fire, and then rely on a party member with control flames to keep the fire going.
My character tossed flasks, and then tossed a bomb. I think it's fair that the fiery explosion of the bomb likely consumed the rest of the incendiary fuel on the monsters in question, were it not for magical intervention to keep the fire burning.
But I want to say fire in the game when generated otherwise, lasts a fair bit longer than 6 seconds, so I'm wondering if this is really just a way to nerf non magical fire as a combat option mechanical contrivance more than anything else. I mean a torch wielded as a weapon only does 1 point of damage.
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Let me toss another question in, when you splash it on someone or throw it at someone what AC are you trying to hit? Your not trying to get through the armor to the person only get it on the armor/outer surface so shouldn’t you be attacking against AC 10 + Dex bonus not what ever the actual AC is?
Let me toss another question in, when you splash it on someone or throw it at someone what AC are you trying to hit? Your not trying to get through the armor to the person only get it on the armor/outer surface so shouldn’t you be attacking against AC 10 + Dex bonus not what ever the actual AC is?
No, 5e has abandoned the concept of the "touch attack," which is what you're describing.
since we are in the rules section, I'll ask the pedantic question. What part of RAW makes that work? why would hitting with the staff cause the oil and flask to break and spray on the target due to a melee hit with the staff?
I’ll see your pedantic question and raise you one of my own. Logically speaking, if you stuck three glass flasks to the end of a big stick and hit something with it really, really hard, how would those glass flasks not break?
Sure, but flasks incidentally breaking during an attack is very different from using a whole Action to apply the contents of a single flask to a creature. The latter sounds like some precision and thoroughness is required to do it correctly, and the former sounds like you're just as likely to set yourself on fire. Or at least only partially hit anyone which would not proc the effect.
I mean it's certainly a cool visual, but seems like quite a serious upgrade to what the staff is supposed to be.
Let me toss another question in, when you splash it on someone or throw it at someone what AC are you trying to hit? Your not trying to get through the armor to the person only get it on the armor/outer surface so shouldn’t you be attacking against AC 10 + Dex bonus not what ever the actual AC is?
Well, for the first option of splashing the oil onto a creature at close range I think we've determined that that's an auto-success. For the second option of throwing the flask at someone from range, I could see a DM houseruling it in the way you've described but it wouldn't be RAW and it would probably make this option a bit more overpowered than intended. This is similar to firing any other projectile at an enemy where the benefits of wearing armor introduces situations where the projectile becomes a glancing blow or otherwise creates an impact that is too weak to do damage upon impact. As an abstraction, there are similar possibilities when we throw the flask -- maybe the flask deflects off of plate mail in a glancing blow or maybe there's just sometimes a chance that it bounces off of leather armor without shattering. If it doesn't shatter, you don't get the projectile damage and you don't get the oil spilling onto the creature so it's just a miss.
The reason i don't think oil slashed onto a creature within 5 feet is automatic success is because the result is written after the attack roll hitting ''On a hit, the target is covered in oil.''
There's also a Dev's take on it if interested;
@BerrickLune When splashing oil on someone, is it autohit in melee range, or do you still have to make an attack roll?
@JeremyECrawford Whether you're trying to splash oil on someone or hurl a flask of oil at them, you need to make a ranged attack, as described in the text on oil (PH, 152).
Yeah I don’t treat the oil splash as an auto hit. I do treat it as AC 10 for a splash. Regular leather isn’t soft it’s actually hardened leather so it should break lasts pretty easily, studded is soft but has all those hard studs to break the flask and basically everything else except mage armor is a hard solid. I can see maybe adding the shield bonus as you break the flask on the shield soaking it but not the armor or target but to me most of the armor is barrier to the damage from weapons and not from what amounts to an area effect albet a small 5’ square) area. I play the oil as taking a minute to soak in/dry up and then if ignited during that time burning up in 2 rounds doing 5 damage each round or 10 damage total.
I think this is your classic case of a description that's structured poorly. Personally I'd tweak it to look like:
Oil usually comes in a clay flask that holds 1 pint.
As an action, you can splash the oil in this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. Make a ranged attack against a target creature or object, treating the oil as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target is covered in oil. If the target takes any fire damage before the oil dries (after 1 minute), the target takes an additional 5 fire damage from the burning oil.
You can also pour a flask of oil on the ground to cover a 5-foot-square area, provided that the surface is level. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 5 fire damage to any creature that enters the area or ends its turn in the area.
A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
With only that minor change in formatting I'd see it being treated as two entirely separate effects:
Single Target: By splashing oil on a target you are making an improvised ranged attack in order to make them take extra fire damage. Since you have to make an attack roll and hit, and it can only affect a single target it can apply multiple times for an entire minute (up to once every turn).
Area Effect: By pouring oil in a square and lighting it you are igniting all of the oil at once, in which case it only lasts two rounds (because all of the oil is burning). This is an area hazard, and can potentially affect multiple creatures before it goes out. It's also interesting that it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn" meaning it will trigger if your party can keep pushing an enemy through it.
It's the fact that it's one giant paragraph that makes it confusing IMO.
How long it takes for the oil to dry is specific to the single target effect, and I think that makes reasonable sense; a creature moving around would cause the oil to dry, drip off etc., but oil poured onto the ground would only diminish if poured onto a porous surface like dirt; if poured onto polished/varnished wood, ceramic tiles, soaked into a carpet or such the oil could remain fully effective for a lot longer until lit.
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Well, for the first option of splashing the oil onto a creature at close range I think we've determined that that's an auto-success.
No we haven't, the rule quite clearly says that it is an ranged attack and that is backed up by the tweet from JC. And it gets even worse because, as @texasdevin noted on above, a ranged attack when you're within 5ft of an opponent is made at disadvantage.
Of course that probably takes it into tobadtobetrue territory as the added damage really is quite low. So a houserule might be needed.
Of course that probably takes it into tobadtobetrue territory as the added damage really is quite low. So a houserule might be needed.
The damage actually isn't that bad; okay so it's only 5 extra per fire damage you deal, but it's once per turn for a minute, so if you have more than one party member that can deal fire damage then they're each doing 5 extra damage so it can add up pretty fast.
But yeah, it's unpredictable, and requires you to have the means to take full advantage when it works, so high risk for what it is. I'd prefer something weaker but more reliable (and consistent), ideally with higher level versions for later tiers of play.
The floor puddle option meanwhile doesn't need to hit, but to take full advantage of it you either need to funnel enemies through it somehow and light it once they're committed, or have some way to push them through it, but this again potentially lets you harm enemies multiple times per round if you've got several party members with thorn whip or such (similar to maximising spike growth).
So even in its weirdly worded current form it's not bad at all for a single silver piece; for a Thief with Fast Hands you can use it and an alchemist's fire (flask) in the same turn. Take Tavern Brawler for the proficiency and you've got yourself… well you've got yourself a really weird build, but in tiers 1 and 2 it should still be pretty fun, it's a decent option if you want to block a path as you make an escape, or if you just want to burn everything down around you (as so many adventuring parties seem to).
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Wow, I was surprised that this topic is still going. I stand by what I've said above and I think that the most recent commenters have it wrong. The JC comment is unfortunate because I believe that he is "wrong" in this case (it does happen) even as RAI. Just read between the lines a little bit and think about what was intended.
Since you have to make an attack roll and hit, and it can only affect a single target it can apply multiple times for an entire minute (up to once every turn).
No. I disagree strongly with this. A flask of oil costs 1 silver piece. Its purpose primarily is to act as fuel for a lantern. But since it's fuel and is flammable some extra description is given for a potential use in combat -- it's not meant to be overpowered. Having this damage recur for 10 rounds with no mention of a saving throw for the cost of an action to use a common consumable item that costs 1 silver piece would be wildly unbalanced and makes no sense. Upon careful reading, there is nothing in the description that says that it works that way anyways. It says that the oil must be lit before it dries to do any damage, that's it. In the last portion of the description about using the oil to cover an area on the floor, it is specifically spelled out that in that case the oil will burn for exactly 2 rounds. There is nothing like that in the early portion of the description -- as written it should be assumed that oil splashed onto a creature will burn for only 1 round.
"It's also interesting that it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn" meaning it will trigger if your party can keep pushing an enemy through it."
This interpretation is also incorrect. The description specifically says:
A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
. . . the rule quite clearly says that [splashing oil from within 5 feet] is an ranged attack . . .
No. In fact, it isn't clear at all, and furthermore, it doesn't say that. This is what is says:
As an action, you can splash the oil in this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. Make a ranged attack against a target creature or object, treating the oil as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target is covered in oil. If the target takes any fire damage before the oil dries (after 1 minute), the target takes an additional 5 fire damage from the burning oil.
This describes 2 totally different actions that you can take with a flask of oil:
1) Open the flask and splash the oil onto a creature that is right next to you. Auto-success. This is basically an area attack with no saving throw.
2) OR, throw it up to 20 feet at a target creature or object. This requires an improvised weapon ranged attack roll, as it should. As I said above, this means that you also get the 1d4 + modifier projectile damage from the thrown flask as well as the potential 5 fire damage (this is the extra benefit that you get for having to hit on an attack roll).
As for having to make an attack roll for option 1? (Face palm) Come on guys. Ok, here is a real life challenge for you all. Go into your kitchen and find a 16 ounce water bottle and fill it up with water. Remove the cap. Have a friend stand 1 foot away from you. (Which is within 5 feet) "Try" to spash the water all over your friend. You can even tell your friend that he can attempt to dodge but only after you've begun your action to try to drench him. Did he get wet? What are the chances that you would have "missed"?
Typically, an action like this would either involve an attack roll (which appears to be the case here) or the person on the receiving end of the splash would make a Dexterity saving throw to avoid being covered in oil.
EDIT: However, if we look at the acid (vial) we can see a slight difference in wording that we do not see with the oil (flask). So who knows? Maybe they did intend the oil to be an auto-success. Or maybe they didn't.
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
Ok I went back and read this a few times and this is what I'm coming up with now:
There are 3 options for using a flask of oil as an item in battle. In every case you use an action to do so.
1) You can splash the oil onto a creature within 5 feet of you. It does not say "target creature". I think that this is an auto-success. I believe that this is meant to work like an area attack with an area of 5 feet (one adjacent grid square) but affecting only the closest creature within that 5 foot square (like, in the case that a few Tiny creatures are in there or something) -- basically picture unplugging the stopper of a flask and shaking it vigorously up and down so that the liquid sloshes out of it, spreading through the air to cover a volume above one 5-foot grid square, affecting the first creature within this area. No saving throw. The creature is covered with oil that takes 1 minute to dry if unlit and is consumed in one round if lit. A maximum of 5 fire damage can be taken in this way from this flask of oil.
[SNIPPED OUT]
I think that covers everything. Note that a flask of oil costs just 1 silver piece so it's probably not meant to be super powerful in battle.
It makes no sense that when attempting to splash oil on a creature, the target gets no saving throw. If someone tries to splash paint on you, your likely instinct is to try to dodge it. There should be DEX saving throw at the very least. If it succeeds, the creature moved out of the way in time and is not covered in oil.
People on this thread seem to be neglecting some other excellent uses for the flask: as part of a trap or as the "component" of the Catapult spell. The best part about using oil flasks as part of a trap is that you can dump multiple flasks over a small area using something like a net released on a trigger (or Mage Hand), increasing the amount of subsequent fire damage. Let your inner Pyro free!
ok then, use that as your real life experiment then. Open up a brand new can of paint. Now have a friend who is standing 3 inches away from you attempt to dodge while you try to splash some paint on him and let us all know if he was successful in fully dodging it.
It's actually a good point about the comparison to the description of the acid vial though. That does make it seem like perhaps the RAI really was to have to make an attack roll to splash someone who is a few inches away. At disadvantage. Meaning, a straight up attack roll with no proficiency bonus. So, if the dude right next to me happens to be wearing some really nice armor and has an AC above 20, I would have to roll a natural 20. TWICE. To splash any oil on him.
Welp, obviously if that's the actual rule then it needs to be house-ruled immediately and changed in the next version of the game because that would be straight up ridiculous.
Oh, a quick note. Yes the game often requires either an attack roll or a saving throw, but not always. Sleep, Cloud of Daggers, Power Word Kill and so on.
I really like my interpretation of the rule. It makes sense for what is actually happening when you splash someone at close range. It gives a few nice options of what to do with oil that are not overpowered but are nicely balanced with the rest of the game, especially considering the cheap price of the item. If it somehow turns out to be incorrect I would just house-rule this all day long.
So, if the dude right next to me happens to be wearing some really nice armor and has an AC above 20, I would have to roll a natural 20. TWICE. To splash any oil on him.
Not quite. You add your dexterity modifier. So best case scenario you only need to roll a 15 twice.
"It's also interesting that it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn" meaning it will trigger if your party can keep pushing an enemy through it."
This interpretation is also incorrect. The description specifically says:
A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
As was stated, it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn," which is important not because it would limit how many times per turn a creature can take the damage, but rather because it would limit its ability to take the damage to only its turn. As it stands, since it says once per turn and not once per round, if a party pushed a creature into and out of the fire repeatedly it would take the damage multiple times in a single round since it would be entering the fire on separate turns and thus not being in violation of the line you quoted. This is where the distinction between turn and round is important, just like in Sneak Attack.
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Since you have to make an attack roll and hit, and it can only affect a single target it can apply multiple times for an entire minute (up to once every turn).
No. I disagree strongly with this. A flask of oil costs 1 silver piece. Its purpose primarily is to act as fuel for a lantern. But since it's fuel and is flammable some extra description is given for a potential use in combat -- it's not meant to be overpowered. Having this damage recur for 10 rounds with no mention of a saving throw for the cost of an action to use a common consumable item that costs 1 silver piece would be wildly unbalanced and makes no sense.
Nobody gets proficiency in oil flasks as standard, meaning even if you make the ranged attack at 5-20 feet (to avoid disadvantage for being within 5 feet) you still don't have a great chance of hitting with it; the only way to improve that really is with the tavern brawler feat. While the potential damage across a full ten rounds is high, most fights don't last even close to that, and the amount by which you can exploit it depends upon how much fire damage you (and your party) can deal to the enemy.
And that fire damage to trigger the effect requires you to either hit with a flaming attack, or trigger a save effect. Save effects usually have a resource cost; the only easy exception is create bonfire but that's a save or suck (success deals no damage, so oil would have no effect). The most broken combos are fire spells that deal damage over time, like heat metal which doesn't even have a save at all, but it's still a spell slot to activate, occupies concentration, and the same target can only have one heat metal active on it at once (unless you have multiple players re-casting it rather than using the bonus action to continue just one instance of the spell).
It's a lot of potential damage, but in practice it's not that easy to maximise, and you still might not hit with the oil in the first place.
Upon careful reading, there is nothing in the description that says that it works that way anyways. It says that the oil must be lit before it dries to do any damage, that's it.
That's not what it says:
If the target takes any fire damage before the oil dries (after 1 minute), the target takes an additional 5 fire damage from the burning oil.
The time limit only applies to the targeted ranged attack, i.e- if you hit a target, you have 1 minute during which you can inflict additional fire damage, because after that minute the oil has dried out and the effect ends.
In the last portion of the description about using the oil to cover an area on the floor, it is specifically spelled out that in that case the oil will burn for exactly 2 rounds. There is nothing like that in the early portion of the description -- as written it should be assumed that oil splashed onto a creature will burn for only 1 round.
There is no reason to assume that; it already gives an explicit duration of 1 minute for the ranged attack, it says nothing about lasting only a single round or the effect ending when triggered, so neither of those things happen. The oil burning for only two rounds when fully lit on the ground has no bearing on what happens to a single target splashed with oil, especially as the oil on the ground is explicitly being lit in its entirety.
It's normal for single target effects to be more harmful than area effects, as even in a small 5 foot area the oil can potentially affect multiple creatures (especially if it's blocking the only entrance/exit they need to get through), whereas the ranged attack can only ever affect one.
"It's also interesting that it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn" meaning it will trigger if your party can keep pushing an enemy through it."
As Quar1on says, the limit is once per turn not once per round, so the fact that simply entering the area (not only entering it on your own turn) means you can enter the area across multiple turns and take the damage once each turn. A pair of players on either side (four total) thorn whipping the enemy through the fire could deal the added damage four times per round, potentially.
As I already said though, I'd personally prefer the item to be simpler, more limited, but more reliable to use (and with stronger versions for later level crafting), but what I want has no bearing on what the rules actually currently say.
It's not even currently clear that the once per turn condition applies to both forms (ranged attack and area effect); I've assumed so for balance purposes, but it could just as easily be read as only applying to the area effect since it's mentioned at the end, in which case the ranged form could potentially result in 5 extra damage from every single beam of a scorching ray. I very much doubt that's intended, and it's not how I'd run it (since the sentence doesn't refer to either ranged attack or the area) but it's a poorly written item, so it's hard to know for sure.
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ok then, use that as your real life experiment then. Open up a brand new can of paint. Now have a friend who is standing 3 inches away from you attempt to dodge while you try to splash some paint on him and let us all know if he was successful in fully dodging it.
It's actually a good point about the comparison to the description of the acid vial though. That does make it seem like perhaps the RAI really was to have to make an attack roll to splash someone who is a few inches away. At disadvantage. Meaning, a straight up attack roll with no proficiency bonus. So, if the dude right next to me happens to be wearing some really nice armor and has an AC above 20, I would have to roll a natural 20. TWICE. To splash any oil on him.
Your first paragraph there is disingenous. Most hostile creatures capable of holding a can of paint or an oil flask are not capable of getting 3 inches or even 12 inches from you to attack with an improvised weapon. The general 5 foot reach exists for a reason. It's not super hard to dodge something clunky like a paint can being thrown from five feet away, esp. if you are expecting it.
RE: armor and AC. I agree that AC which includes armor is not a good fit for attacks with oil/paint/etc. Ideally, there would be special allowance for certain attacks to be "contact" or "touch" that do not factor in the AC increase from armor, but since this is the Rules and Game Mechanics thread, "touch" AC is not on the table, as it were.
Why would it be any different on the ground?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sure, but flasks incidentally breaking during an attack is very different from using a whole Action to apply the contents of a single flask to a creature. The latter sounds like some precision and thoroughness is required to do it correctly, and the former sounds like you're just as likely to set yourself on fire. Or at least only partially hit anyone which would not proc the effect.
I mean it's certainly a cool visual, but seems like quite a serious upgrade to what the staff is supposed to be.
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So as the firebug that likely instigated this thread, I'll just say the best tactic is to get the oil on the target, get that oil on fire, and then rely on a party member with control flames to keep the fire going.
My character tossed flasks, and then tossed a bomb. I think it's fair that the fiery explosion of the bomb likely consumed the rest of the incendiary fuel on the monsters in question, were it not for magical intervention to keep the fire burning.
But I want to say fire in the game when generated otherwise, lasts a fair bit longer than 6 seconds, so I'm wondering if this is really just a way to nerf non magical fire as a combat option mechanical contrivance more than anything else. I mean a torch wielded as a weapon only does 1 point of damage.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Let me toss another question in, when you splash it on someone or throw it at someone what AC are you trying to hit? Your not trying to get through the armor to the person only get it on the armor/outer surface so shouldn’t you be attacking against AC 10 + Dex bonus not what ever the actual AC is?
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No, 5e has abandoned the concept of the "touch attack," which is what you're describing.
Well that just seems less fun than my version. 😜
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Well, for the first option of splashing the oil onto a creature at close range I think we've determined that that's an auto-success. For the second option of throwing the flask at someone from range, I could see a DM houseruling it in the way you've described but it wouldn't be RAW and it would probably make this option a bit more overpowered than intended. This is similar to firing any other projectile at an enemy where the benefits of wearing armor introduces situations where the projectile becomes a glancing blow or otherwise creates an impact that is too weak to do damage upon impact. As an abstraction, there are similar possibilities when we throw the flask -- maybe the flask deflects off of plate mail in a glancing blow or maybe there's just sometimes a chance that it bounces off of leather armor without shattering. If it doesn't shatter, you don't get the projectile damage and you don't get the oil spilling onto the creature so it's just a miss.
The reason i don't think oil slashed onto a creature within 5 feet is automatic success is because the result is written after the attack roll hitting ''On a hit, the target is covered in oil.''
There's also a Dev's take on it if interested;
Yeah I don’t treat the oil splash as an auto hit. I do treat it as AC 10 for a splash. Regular leather isn’t soft it’s actually hardened leather so it should break lasts pretty easily, studded is soft but has all those hard studs to break the flask and basically everything else except mage armor is a hard solid. I can see maybe adding the shield bonus as you break the flask on the shield soaking it but not the armor or target but to me most of the armor is barrier to the damage from weapons and not from what amounts to an area effect albet a small 5’ square) area. I play the oil as taking a minute to soak in/dry up and then if ignited during that time burning up in 2 rounds doing 5 damage each round or 10 damage total.
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I think this is your classic case of a description that's structured poorly. Personally I'd tweak it to look like:
With only that minor change in formatting I'd see it being treated as two entirely separate effects:
It's the fact that it's one giant paragraph that makes it confusing IMO.
How long it takes for the oil to dry is specific to the single target effect, and I think that makes reasonable sense; a creature moving around would cause the oil to dry, drip off etc., but oil poured onto the ground would only diminish if poured onto a porous surface like dirt; if poured onto polished/varnished wood, ceramic tiles, soaked into a carpet or such the oil could remain fully effective for a lot longer until lit.
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No we haven't, the rule quite clearly says that it is an ranged attack and that is backed up by the tweet from JC. And it gets even worse because, as @texasdevin noted on above, a ranged attack when you're within 5ft of an opponent is made at disadvantage.
Of course that probably takes it into tobadtobetrue territory as the added damage really is quite low. So a houserule might be needed.
The damage actually isn't that bad; okay so it's only 5 extra per fire damage you deal, but it's once per turn for a minute, so if you have more than one party member that can deal fire damage then they're each doing 5 extra damage so it can add up pretty fast.
But yeah, it's unpredictable, and requires you to have the means to take full advantage when it works, so high risk for what it is. I'd prefer something weaker but more reliable (and consistent), ideally with higher level versions for later tiers of play.
The floor puddle option meanwhile doesn't need to hit, but to take full advantage of it you either need to funnel enemies through it somehow and light it once they're committed, or have some way to push them through it, but this again potentially lets you harm enemies multiple times per round if you've got several party members with thorn whip or such (similar to maximising spike growth).
So even in its weirdly worded current form it's not bad at all for a single silver piece; for a Thief with Fast Hands you can use it and an alchemist's fire (flask) in the same turn. Take Tavern Brawler for the proficiency and you've got yourself… well you've got yourself a really weird build, but in tiers 1 and 2 it should still be pretty fun, it's a decent option if you want to block a path as you make an escape, or if you just want to burn everything down around you (as so many adventuring parties seem to).
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Wow, I was surprised that this topic is still going. I stand by what I've said above and I think that the most recent commenters have it wrong. The JC comment is unfortunate because I believe that he is "wrong" in this case (it does happen) even as RAI. Just read between the lines a little bit and think about what was intended.
Agreed.
No. I disagree strongly with this. A flask of oil costs 1 silver piece. Its purpose primarily is to act as fuel for a lantern. But since it's fuel and is flammable some extra description is given for a potential use in combat -- it's not meant to be overpowered. Having this damage recur for 10 rounds with no mention of a saving throw for the cost of an action to use a common consumable item that costs 1 silver piece would be wildly unbalanced and makes no sense. Upon careful reading, there is nothing in the description that says that it works that way anyways. It says that the oil must be lit before it dries to do any damage, that's it. In the last portion of the description about using the oil to cover an area on the floor, it is specifically spelled out that in that case the oil will burn for exactly 2 rounds. There is nothing like that in the early portion of the description -- as written it should be assumed that oil splashed onto a creature will burn for only 1 round.
"It's also interesting that it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn" meaning it will trigger if your party can keep pushing an enemy through it."
This interpretation is also incorrect. The description specifically says:
Next,
No. In fact, it isn't clear at all, and furthermore, it doesn't say that. This is what is says:
This describes 2 totally different actions that you can take with a flask of oil:
1) Open the flask and splash the oil onto a creature that is right next to you. Auto-success. This is basically an area attack with no saving throw.
2) OR, throw it up to 20 feet at a target creature or object. This requires an improvised weapon ranged attack roll, as it should. As I said above, this means that you also get the 1d4 + modifier projectile damage from the thrown flask as well as the potential 5 fire damage (this is the extra benefit that you get for having to hit on an attack roll).
As for having to make an attack roll for option 1? (Face palm) Come on guys. Ok, here is a real life challenge for you all. Go into your kitchen and find a 16 ounce water bottle and fill it up with water. Remove the cap. Have a friend stand 1 foot away from you. (Which is within 5 feet) "Try" to spash the water all over your friend. You can even tell your friend that he can attempt to dodge but only after you've begun your action to try to drench him. Did he get wet? What are the chances that you would have "missed"?
Typically, an action like this would either involve an attack roll (which appears to be the case here) or the person on the receiving end of the splash would make a Dexterity saving throw to avoid being covered in oil.
EDIT: However, if we look at the acid (vial) we can see a slight difference in wording that we do not see with the oil (flask). So who knows? Maybe they did intend the oil to be an auto-success. Or maybe they didn't.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It makes no sense that when attempting to splash oil on a creature, the target gets no saving throw. If someone tries to splash paint on you, your likely instinct is to try to dodge it. There should be DEX saving throw at the very least. If it succeeds, the creature moved out of the way in time and is not covered in oil.
People on this thread seem to be neglecting some other excellent uses for the flask: as part of a trap or as the "component" of the Catapult spell. The best part about using oil flasks as part of a trap is that you can dump multiple flasks over a small area using something like a net released on a trigger (or Mage Hand), increasing the amount of subsequent fire damage. Let your inner Pyro free!
ok then, use that as your real life experiment then. Open up a brand new can of paint. Now have a friend who is standing 3 inches away from you attempt to dodge while you try to splash some paint on him and let us all know if he was successful in fully dodging it.
It's actually a good point about the comparison to the description of the acid vial though. That does make it seem like perhaps the RAI really was to have to make an attack roll to splash someone who is a few inches away. At disadvantage. Meaning, a straight up attack roll with no proficiency bonus. So, if the dude right next to me happens to be wearing some really nice armor and has an AC above 20, I would have to roll a natural 20. TWICE. To splash any oil on him.
Welp, obviously if that's the actual rule then it needs to be house-ruled immediately and changed in the next version of the game because that would be straight up ridiculous.
Oh, a quick note. Yes the game often requires either an attack roll or a saving throw, but not always. Sleep, Cloud of Daggers, Power Word Kill and so on.
I really like my interpretation of the rule. It makes sense for what is actually happening when you splash someone at close range. It gives a few nice options of what to do with oil that are not overpowered but are nicely balanced with the rest of the game, especially considering the cheap price of the item. If it somehow turns out to be incorrect I would just house-rule this all day long.
Not quite. You add your dexterity modifier. So best case scenario you only need to roll a 15 twice.
As was stated, it doesn't specify "enters the area for the first time on its turn," which is important not because it would limit how many times per turn a creature can take the damage, but rather because it would limit its ability to take the damage to only its turn. As it stands, since it says once per turn and not once per round, if a party pushed a creature into and out of the fire repeatedly it would take the damage multiple times in a single round since it would be entering the fire on separate turns and thus not being in violation of the line you quoted. This is where the distinction between turn and round is important, just like in Sneak Attack.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Nobody gets proficiency in oil flasks as standard, meaning even if you make the ranged attack at 5-20 feet (to avoid disadvantage for being within 5 feet) you still don't have a great chance of hitting with it; the only way to improve that really is with the tavern brawler feat. While the potential damage across a full ten rounds is high, most fights don't last even close to that, and the amount by which you can exploit it depends upon how much fire damage you (and your party) can deal to the enemy.
And that fire damage to trigger the effect requires you to either hit with a flaming attack, or trigger a save effect. Save effects usually have a resource cost; the only easy exception is create bonfire but that's a save or suck (success deals no damage, so oil would have no effect). The most broken combos are fire spells that deal damage over time, like heat metal which doesn't even have a save at all, but it's still a spell slot to activate, occupies concentration, and the same target can only have one heat metal active on it at once (unless you have multiple players re-casting it rather than using the bonus action to continue just one instance of the spell).
It's a lot of potential damage, but in practice it's not that easy to maximise, and you still might not hit with the oil in the first place.
That's not what it says:
The time limit only applies to the targeted ranged attack, i.e- if you hit a target, you have 1 minute during which you can inflict additional fire damage, because after that minute the oil has dried out and the effect ends.
There is no reason to assume that; it already gives an explicit duration of 1 minute for the ranged attack, it says nothing about lasting only a single round or the effect ending when triggered, so neither of those things happen. The oil burning for only two rounds when fully lit on the ground has no bearing on what happens to a single target splashed with oil, especially as the oil on the ground is explicitly being lit in its entirety.
It's normal for single target effects to be more harmful than area effects, as even in a small 5 foot area the oil can potentially affect multiple creatures (especially if it's blocking the only entrance/exit they need to get through), whereas the ranged attack can only ever affect one.
As Quar1on says, the limit is once per turn not once per round, so the fact that simply entering the area (not only entering it on your own turn) means you can enter the area across multiple turns and take the damage once each turn. A pair of players on either side (four total) thorn whipping the enemy through the fire could deal the added damage four times per round, potentially.
As I already said though, I'd personally prefer the item to be simpler, more limited, but more reliable to use (and with stronger versions for later level crafting), but what I want has no bearing on what the rules actually currently say.
It's not even currently clear that the once per turn condition applies to both forms (ranged attack and area effect); I've assumed so for balance purposes, but it could just as easily be read as only applying to the area effect since it's mentioned at the end, in which case the ranged form could potentially result in 5 extra damage from every single beam of a scorching ray. I very much doubt that's intended, and it's not how I'd run it (since the sentence doesn't refer to either ranged attack or the area) but it's a poorly written item, so it's hard to know for sure.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Your first paragraph there is disingenous. Most hostile creatures capable of holding a can of paint or an oil flask are not capable of getting 3 inches or even 12 inches from you to attack with an improvised weapon. The general 5 foot reach exists for a reason. It's not super hard to dodge something clunky like a paint can being thrown from five feet away, esp. if you are expecting it.
RE: armor and AC. I agree that AC which includes armor is not a good fit for attacks with oil/paint/etc. Ideally, there would be special allowance for certain attacks to be "contact" or "touch" that do not factor in the AC increase from armor, but since this is the Rules and Game Mechanics thread, "touch" AC is not on the table, as it were.