I've had some problems trying to understand how Nick is supposed to work.
RAW:
"Mastery Properties: Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character."
So this tells us that by the general rule your character learns a mastery from a weapon and not a mastery for a weapon.
Then on every weapon mastery it says "with this weapon" or something similar except for Nick. So it looks like if you know a mastery you can only use it with that specific weapon by the specific rules (which supersede the general) except for Nick.
So from what I understand, your character doesn't even need to have a weapon with Nick to benefit from it, you just need to know the Nick property.
Therefore you can have two shortswords and attack twice without using your bonus action (as long as you know the Nick property).
RAI:
I don't think it makes sense to be trained (and pick) Daggers and then benefit from it when using other weapons.
I think the intent with Nick with the example from before is that you need to use a shortsword and a dagger, so your attack that benefits from the Nick mastery must be made with the weapon that has the Nick property.
Question:
Do you have a different interpretation for RAW and why? Is there a clarification anywhere? And do you think this is the RAI?
I absolutely don't think that reading of RAW is RAI. I'm more than confident that you need the Nick weapon somewhere* equipped and used in the process.
*There have been other threads that have debated on whether the Nick weapon needs to be used to activate the property for another weapon (might be why they chose not to say "with this weapon") or be the one used for the Nick attack. I don't think those reached a definitive conclusion, but I was less interested in those threads, so I may have missed it.
This forum taught me that you can only use a mastery property if you have that particular weapon & an the use of mastery.
So if you have one of every mastery, you just cant use it.
If you have hand crossbow vex, you can't use shortbow and claim vex as well.
If you have nick from dagger and use a scimitar, you cannot claim nick, that is both RAW & RAI. The RAW interpretation is incorrect, so there is no clarifications.
It's true that RAW, the Nick weapon mastery doesn't specify whether it's activated when you make the Light additional attack (which is my ruling) or on the initial attack, but I'd say you at least need to be wielding the weapon.
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
"Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character. The properties are defined below."
As such is a feature that allows you to use a mastery property of a weapon and not the weapon itself that grants you the mastery property.
The Fighter for example is one that has such features:
(...) Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of three kinds of Simple or Martial weapons of your choice. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
When you reach certain Fighter levels, you gain the ability to use the mastery properties of more kinds of weapons, as shown in the Weapon Mastery column of the Fighter Features table. (...)
This feature allows you to access the mastery property that those weapons have. Do not restrict you to use that property with only that weapon. For example if i learned the topple with a quarterstaff I also can use topple with a trident.
(...) Nick When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. (...)
The Nick Property works differently as is the only mastery than does not requires you to use a specific weapon and in fact even forces you to use a second weapon be modifying a weapon property. The Nick property changes how the light property works and not how weapons works, for example does not grants special features like for example topple that when you hit with a weapon you can force a saving throw to knock prone.
For me its designed as is on purpose..... to allow to apply to the light property.
[...] "Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character. The properties are defined below."
As such is a feature that allows you to use a mastery property of a weapon and not the weapon itself that grants you the mastery property.
The Fighter for example is one that has such features:
(...) Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of three kinds of Simple or Martial weapons of your choice. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
When you reach certain Fighter levels, you gain the ability to use the mastery properties of more kinds of weapons, as shown in the Weapon Mastery column of the Fighter Features table. (...)
This feature allows you to access the mastery property that those weapons have. Do not restrict you to use that property with only that weapon. For example if i learned the topple with a quarterstaff I also can use topple with a trident. [...]
Is that right? I believe it's per kind of weapon.
For example, for a Barbarian:
Level 1: Weapon Mastery
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of two kinds of Simple or Martial Melee weapons of your choice, such as Greataxes and Handaxes. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
Or for a Ranger:
Level 1: Weapon Mastery
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of two kinds of weapons of your choice with which you have proficiency, such as Longbows and Shortswords.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the mastery properties of Scimitars and Longswords.
I think your entire foundation is incorrect. Your character is in no way learning a Mastery property from a weapon.
If you have a feature that allows your character to use Weapon Masteries then you can use the Mastery property of the weapon in question when using that weapon.
RAW, I believe that your Weapon Mastery slots are allocated to the masteries themselves rather than weapons. So if I had a Great Axe, I could learn the Cleave mastery. Once learned, I could use the Cleave mastery for any weapon that has the Cleave property (such as a Halberd).
For all of the Weapon Masteries except Nick, there is an explicit requirement you attack with a weapon that has that property. If I've learned Cleave, I could Cleave with a Great Axe or Halberd but not a Maul. You could only Topple with a Maul.
Nick is phrased in a distinctly different manner, avoiding mention of ever attacking with the Nick weapon itself. So you should be able to grab a Scimitar, learn the Nick property and then use that Nick to make two Hand Crossbow (Light, Vex) attacks during your Attack Action (presuming you had eliminated the Loading and Ammunition limitations). Once learned from our Scimitar, we'd never need to actually use the Scimitar.
However, a more common interpretation is that the Nick property is just like every other weapon mastery: you need to use the weapon with the property. This effectively kills the idea of dual Hand Crossbows (Hand Crossbow + Thrown Dagger is superior). The common interpretation also means that Rogues rarely dual wield since the Nick weapon breaks the Vex chain. Rather than being able to 'crit fish' by dual wielding Short Swords, it makes more sense to just pile everything onto a single Vex weapon. That being said, it is admittedly silly that your brief encounter with a Scimitar lets you be more effective with Hand Crossbows.
Ultimately, the rules for dual wielding appear to have been written by a committee that neither talked to nor played with one another before they each took their own section of the rules to write under differing understandings of what those rules should be. If you think this issue is contentious, you need to look up 'dual wielding with a Shield' that manages to combine the Light weapon mess and the weapon draw/stow rules to make dual wielding itself completely pointless compared to S&B.
I think your entire foundation is incorrect. Your character is in no way learning a Mastery property from a weapon.
If you have a feature that allows your character to use Weapon Masteries then you can use the Mastery property of the weapon in question when using that weapon.
Incorrect or not, for example for a Fighter, this is how DnD Beyond implements the rule:
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I've had some problems trying to understand how Nick is supposed to work.
RAW:
"Mastery Properties: Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character."
So this tells us that by the general rule your character learns a mastery from a weapon and not a mastery for a weapon.
Then on every weapon mastery it says "with this weapon" or something similar except for Nick. So it looks like if you know a mastery you can only use it with that specific weapon by the specific rules (which supersede the general) except for Nick.
So from what I understand, your character doesn't even need to have a weapon with Nick to benefit from it, you just need to know the Nick property.
Therefore you can have two shortswords and attack twice without using your bonus action (as long as you know the Nick property).
RAI:
I don't think it makes sense to be trained (and pick) Daggers and then benefit from it when using other weapons.
I think the intent with Nick with the example from before is that you need to use a shortsword and a dagger, so your attack that benefits from the Nick mastery must be made with the weapon that has the Nick property.
Question:
Do you have a different interpretation for RAW and why? Is there a clarification anywhere? And do you think this is the RAI?
I absolutely don't think that reading of RAW is RAI. I'm more than confident that you need the Nick weapon somewhere* equipped and used in the process.
*There have been other threads that have debated on whether the Nick weapon needs to be used to activate the property for another weapon (might be why they chose not to say "with this weapon") or be the one used for the Nick attack. I don't think those reached a definitive conclusion, but I was less interested in those threads, so I may have missed it.
This forum taught me that you can only use a mastery property if you have that particular weapon & an the use of mastery.
So if you have one of every mastery, you just cant use it.
If you have hand crossbow vex, you can't use shortbow and claim vex as well.
If you have nick from dagger and use a scimitar, you cannot claim nick, that is both RAW & RAI. The RAW interpretation is incorrect, so there is no clarifications.
It's true that RAW, the Nick weapon mastery doesn't specify whether it's activated when you make the Light additional attack (which is my ruling) or on the initial attack, but I'd say you at least need to be wielding the weapon.
My ruling is based on the article Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook, where IMO the intent is explained:
Not sure how you can affirm....
Let me breakdown
In Phb:
"Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character. The properties are defined below."
As such is a feature that allows you to use a mastery property of a weapon and not the weapon itself that grants you the mastery property.
The Fighter for example is one that has such features:
(...)
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of three kinds of Simple or Martial weapons of your choice. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
When you reach certain Fighter levels, you gain the ability to use the mastery properties of more kinds of weapons, as shown in the Weapon Mastery column of the Fighter Features table.
(...)
This feature allows you to access the mastery property that those weapons have. Do not restrict you to use that property with only that weapon. For example if i learned the topple with a quarterstaff I also can use topple with a trident.
(...)
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
(...)
The Nick Property works differently as is the only mastery than does not requires you to use a specific weapon and in fact even forces you to use a second weapon be modifying a weapon property. The Nick property changes how the light property works and not how weapons works, for example does not grants special features like for example topple that when you hit with a weapon you can force a saving throw to knock prone.
For me its designed as is on purpose..... to allow to apply to the light property.
Ryex in case you want to read about the popular topic "Nick order":
Is that right? I believe it's per kind of weapon.
For example, for a Barbarian:
Or for a Ranger:
I think your entire foundation is incorrect. Your character is in no way learning a Mastery property from a weapon.
If you have a feature that allows your character to use Weapon Masteries then you can use the Mastery property of the weapon in question when using that weapon.
RAW, I believe that your Weapon Mastery slots are allocated to the masteries themselves rather than weapons. So if I had a Great Axe, I could learn the Cleave mastery. Once learned, I could use the Cleave mastery for any weapon that has the Cleave property (such as a Halberd).
For all of the Weapon Masteries except Nick, there is an explicit requirement you attack with a weapon that has that property. If I've learned Cleave, I could Cleave with a Great Axe or Halberd but not a Maul. You could only Topple with a Maul.
Nick is phrased in a distinctly different manner, avoiding mention of ever attacking with the Nick weapon itself. So you should be able to grab a Scimitar, learn the Nick property and then use that Nick to make two Hand Crossbow (Light, Vex) attacks during your Attack Action (presuming you had eliminated the Loading and Ammunition limitations). Once learned from our Scimitar, we'd never need to actually use the Scimitar.
However, a more common interpretation is that the Nick property is just like every other weapon mastery: you need to use the weapon with the property. This effectively kills the idea of dual Hand Crossbows (Hand Crossbow + Thrown Dagger is superior). The common interpretation also means that Rogues rarely dual wield since the Nick weapon breaks the Vex chain. Rather than being able to 'crit fish' by dual wielding Short Swords, it makes more sense to just pile everything onto a single Vex weapon. That being said, it is admittedly silly that your brief encounter with a Scimitar lets you be more effective with Hand Crossbows.
Ultimately, the rules for dual wielding appear to have been written by a committee that neither talked to nor played with one another before they each took their own section of the rules to write under differing understandings of what those rules should be. If you think this issue is contentious, you need to look up 'dual wielding with a Shield' that manages to combine the Light weapon mess and the weapon draw/stow rules to make dual wielding itself completely pointless compared to S&B.
Incorrect or not, for example for a Fighter, this is how DnD Beyond implements the rule: