If i required a roll for cooking it'd probably be a Dexterity or Wisdom check.
I was thinking the same with Dexterity but using Intelligence (recall recipes, etc) instead of Wisdom.
I feel like Wisdom mostly because foraging is related to survival. But perhaps a Wisdom roll with either int as a bonus or add survival skill to the Wisdom check to use tool or the reverse
This is one of those cases where you need to ask yourself if a roll is even needed. What happens on a failure? Is it interesting? Will they just reroll until they succeed?
If someone is just cooking something in my game and they have proficiency in survival or cook's utensils, they just succeed. Everyday cooking is not a difficult, dramatic thing that needs to be played out every time and heroes are assumed to have a baseline of competence in their studied fields.
Now if they're trying to cook an amazing gourmet meal of spiced stirgekabobs to impress the local duke, that's a roll. I'd let them describe how they're making it special and determine the nature of the roll based on that.
Agreed, rolls shoulds only be made when the outcome is uncertain (and with the chance of failure not so close to 0 or 1 that using a d20 make a good approximation.
This works both ways, making stew so the party can have dinner does not require a check it auto succeeds, Trying ot persuade the King to give you half his kingdom wont work even if you roll a natural 20.
I think artisan tools don't give a suggested abilty because there is isn't a dominent ability. Trying to decorate a cake that will be dexterity, trying ot follow a complex recipe of a classic dish, will be intelligence, the OP example of trying to make a meal out of something not encountered before would be wisdom.
This is one of those cases where you need to ask yourself if a roll is even needed. What happens on a failure? Is it interesting? Will they just reroll until they succeed?
If someone is just cooking something in my game and they have proficiency in survival or cook's utensils, they just succeed. Everyday cooking is not a difficult, dramatic thing that needs to be played out every time and heroes are assumed to have a baseline of competence in their studied fields.
Now if they're trying to cook an amazing gourmet meal of spiced stirgekabobs to impress the local duke, that's a roll. I'd let them describe how they're making it special and determine the nature of the roll based on that.
This is a "Let people enjoy things," situation. I think most people roll for cooking because rolling is fun. The outcome is your DM is going to give you either a mouth-watering or a stomach-churning description of the meal you cook. Maybe on a 1 you will get sick and acquire a random disease.
For cooking I like to use a "hybrid" non-standard ability check: Wis (Performance). I think cooking is a Wis-based, not Int-based skill, because it is developed mostly by experience. You can't become Julia Child just by reading a book. It requires practice. Knowledge accumulated through experience is the definition of wisdom.
But it's a Performance skill, because the talent is in knowing your audience, good presentation. It is the creation of an aesthetic experience for another person. Charisma is not involved. This is not Persuasion. But Performance is about getting inside the head of your audience.
In the movie Lord of the Rings, Sam carries around what I would call "Cooks Utensils." He had a bulging backpack with pots and pans strapped to the pack or hanging off it with a chain.
There's a wonderful scene where his box with "the best salt in the south farthing" gets dropped and only the fact that they were almost to the ground already keeps Frodo from hurting himself when he tries to catch it. Later on, another great bit is when Smeagol brings them a couple rabbits, and Sam makes stew out of them. Smeagol is outraged and insists that the rabbits have been ruined. Sam gives his famous speech about the virtues of Potatoes.
A real Chef doesn't cook. They have their lead cook do that, while they supervise. Each dish has at least one cook, all dishes need to be made from the best ingredients, and then set up to be served in a presentable way. It's the wait staff that does the Performance. The Lead Chef might make up new recipes to try using Insight to kind of get into the minds of customers and think about what they might enjoy. The other cooks might use History to remember recipe books and pictures or at least know where to look for the books. None of the gear needed would be remotely portable unless you could carry around a building.
It wouldn't take all that much really. The Magnificent Mansion would make a decent setting, and Heroes Feast would provide the meal.
The Chef feat and Cooks Utensils would allow for making those semi-magical treats. The rest of the time, the player character wouldn't be any better at cooking than anyone else. Insight for new recipes, history for old ones, Survival to know how to find things that are good to eat, Nature to be able to tell what things might be poisonous, like how to tell mushrooms from toadstools. They might raid their Herbalists Kit for something to season the food with, and a container of salt would be quite useful.
A party doesn't really need a cook at all. The standard Rations that most folks cart around have biscuits with the consistence of stone called Hardtack, dried fruit, and nuts. Add in a little fresh game and fruit now and then, maybe a dash of salt, and it will keep you alive just fine. All you would really need is your mess kit. I've seen the kind a boy scout carries, which is just a one foot diameter pot with a lid that you can attach a handle to so it works as a frying pan. Inside are the bowls, cups, and silverware needed to eat as well as a little pitcher that in modern days is used to make coffee. (Back in Medieval times if coffee was available at all, it was rare. It was expensive because it had to be imported from a distant and somewhat unfriendly nation.)
Purify food and drink, and Create food and water will keep a party going essentially forever outside of the most harsh environments the planet has to offer. The Tiny Hut spell takes care of having a secure place to rest and eat. It doesn't take a whole lot of magic to survive, no matter where you need to set up camp. Just keep an eye out for the monsters. Those are what get people more often than not.
I don't see how cooking is Wisdom based when there is more involved then common sense and instincts. I would say its for intelligence to understand how to combine acids, fats, protein, and vegetables into a delicious dish. Intelligence also encompasses experience.
There are culinary schools for a reason and even if learning from a master chef is more intelligence than wisdom. Survival would only be for foraging for ingredients, not the actual cooking.
If someone is proficient in Cook's utensils then I think they are good enough to know how how cook an egg or make a simple meal of bacon and rice.
I would only roll if they are trying to cooking with some unknown ingredient or making an elaborate meal.
I don't see how cooking is Wisdom based when there is more involved then common sense and instincts. I would say its for intelligence to understand how to combine acids, fats, protein, and vegetables into a delicious dish. Intelligence also encompasses experience.
There are culinary schools for a reason and even if learning from a master chef is more intelligence than wisdom. Survival would only be for foraging for ingredients, not the actual cooking.
If someone is proficient in Cook's utensils then I think they are good enough to know how how cook an egg or make a simple meal of bacon and rice.
I would only roll if they are trying to cooking with some unknown ingredient or making an elaborate meal.
A *lot* of people do absolutely cook by instinct and by taste. Tons of people, especially those who cook at home, don't follow set recipes. They just toss in whatever feels right and keep tasting the dish to judge what they need to add. That's absolutely a Wisdom-based task. You're spot on about what an Intelligence-based cook's utensils check would look like. But it's definitely not the only way to cook.
Well, as I recall, the way tool proficiencies generally work is that you can combine your proficiency with different stats for different purposes. For example, with Woodworkers tools... if you're using them to craft an ornate device you might Roll a d20+Proficiency+DEX to represent using your dexterity to carefully craft fine details, or if you're looking at a wooden object and trying to find a weak spot on it you might roll a d20+Proficiency+INT since you're essentially Investigating it.
Well, as I recall, the way tool proficiencies generally work is that you can combine your proficiency with different stats for different purposes. For example, with Woodworkers tools... if you're using them to craft an ornate device you might Roll a d20+Proficiency+DEX to represent using your dexterity to carefully craft fine details, or if you're looking at a wooden object and trying to find a weak spot on it you might roll a d20+Proficiency+INT since you're essentially Investigating it.
That's certainly a common way to handle it, but RAW, your second example would not be a tool check at all. It probably would be investigation.
For what it's worth, I hate the tool rule here and would never in a million years call for checks based on it. But RAW, tool proficiencies only apply when you are actually using the tool; they don't represent the professional knowledge that comes with learning to use the tool. Here's the text, though (bolded the offending sentence for emphasis):
Tools
Having proficiency with a tool allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to an ability check you make using that tool. For example, a character proficient with carpenter’s tools can apply his or her proficiency bonus to a Dexterity check to craft a wooden flute, an Intelligence check to craft a wooden secret door, or a Strength check to build a working trebuchet. However, the proficiency bonus wouldn’t apply to an ability check made to identify unsafe wooden construction or to discern the origin of a crafted item, since neither check requires tool use.
Whoever said it was only one roll.. BUT.. some of those "Rolls" may be Passive. a history roll to remember, the recipe.. unless you have a cookbook. Survival to make do.. the method of cooking.. Unless you have cooking utensils. etc.. Medicine roll to make sure the ingredients are actually safe to eat. Unless....
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
I say Wis (Performance). Performance because this is an attempt to impress someone. I use Performance generally for anything with an "audience". You are producing a creative work targeted to have an effect on a specific individual or group.
Wisdom because wisdom is generally used for activities where experience, rather than book learning, is the determining factor in skill.
If you're trying to find a mushroom, use Survival. If you are trying to decide if a mushroom is poisonous or not, use Nature. But if you're trying to cook a mushroom, use Wis (Performance).
You use The Cook's Utensils, If you ARE using Cook's Utensils. Long ago I was trying for the Cub Scout cooking badge.. we misunderstood what I needed to bring.
So when I found out I needed a vegetable, . . all anyone had was an onion.. What cooking utensil did I use.. none stuck a stick in it. and stuck it over the fire.. Did I make the utensil prof.. of course not.. Did I make the survival roll to cook it. Nope. I made the Con roll to eat it anyway.. and got the badge.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
If it’s some sort of concoction to heal, but not technically a potion, like a soup to keep from becoming cold/sick I’d have my players roll medicine. To simply cook food, I also think it would be survival
Made sense, cooking utensil proficiency would be better, but I’d say wisdom for anyone not proficient with cooking utensils wisdom or intelligence for anyone who is proficient which ever is hire.
In three pages, no one answered the OP question with "dinner roll"!?
If i required a roll for cooking it'd probably be a Dexterity or Wisdom check.
I was thinking the same with Dexterity but using Intelligence (recall recipes, etc) instead of Wisdom.
I feel like Wisdom mostly because foraging is related to survival. But perhaps a Wisdom roll with either int as a bonus or add survival skill to the Wisdom check to use tool or the reverse
This is one of those cases where you need to ask yourself if a roll is even needed. What happens on a failure? Is it interesting? Will they just reroll until they succeed?
If someone is just cooking something in my game and they have proficiency in survival or cook's utensils, they just succeed. Everyday cooking is not a difficult, dramatic thing that needs to be played out every time and heroes are assumed to have a baseline of competence in their studied fields.
Now if they're trying to cook an amazing gourmet meal of spiced stirgekabobs to impress the local duke, that's a roll. I'd let them describe how they're making it special and determine the nature of the roll based on that.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Agreed, rolls shoulds only be made when the outcome is uncertain (and with the chance of failure not so close to 0 or 1 that using a d20 make a good approximation.
This works both ways, making stew so the party can have dinner does not require a check it auto succeeds, Trying ot persuade the King to give you half his kingdom wont work even if you roll a natural 20.
I think artisan tools don't give a suggested abilty because there is isn't a dominent ability. Trying to decorate a cake that will be dexterity, trying ot follow a complex recipe of a classic dish, will be intelligence, the OP example of trying to make a meal out of something not encountered before would be wisdom.
This is a "Let people enjoy things," situation. I think most people roll for cooking because rolling is fun. The outcome is your DM is going to give you either a mouth-watering or a stomach-churning description of the meal you cook. Maybe on a 1 you will get sick and acquire a random disease.
For cooking I like to use a "hybrid" non-standard ability check: Wis (Performance). I think cooking is a Wis-based, not Int-based skill, because it is developed mostly by experience. You can't become Julia Child just by reading a book. It requires practice. Knowledge accumulated through experience is the definition of wisdom.
But it's a Performance skill, because the talent is in knowing your audience, good presentation. It is the creation of an aesthetic experience for another person. Charisma is not involved. This is not Persuasion. But Performance is about getting inside the head of your audience.
In the movie Lord of the Rings, Sam carries around what I would call "Cooks Utensils." He had a bulging backpack with pots and pans strapped to the pack or hanging off it with a chain.
There's a wonderful scene where his box with "the best salt in the south farthing" gets dropped and only the fact that they were almost to the ground already keeps Frodo from hurting himself when he tries to catch it. Later on, another great bit is when Smeagol brings them a couple rabbits, and Sam makes stew out of them. Smeagol is outraged and insists that the rabbits have been ruined. Sam gives his famous speech about the virtues of Potatoes.
A real Chef doesn't cook. They have their lead cook do that, while they supervise. Each dish has at least one cook, all dishes need to be made from the best ingredients, and then set up to be served in a presentable way. It's the wait staff that does the Performance. The Lead Chef might make up new recipes to try using Insight to kind of get into the minds of customers and think about what they might enjoy. The other cooks might use History to remember recipe books and pictures or at least know where to look for the books. None of the gear needed would be remotely portable unless you could carry around a building.
It wouldn't take all that much really. The Magnificent Mansion would make a decent setting, and Heroes Feast would provide the meal.
The Chef feat and Cooks Utensils would allow for making those semi-magical treats. The rest of the time, the player character wouldn't be any better at cooking than anyone else. Insight for new recipes, history for old ones, Survival to know how to find things that are good to eat, Nature to be able to tell what things might be poisonous, like how to tell mushrooms from toadstools. They might raid their Herbalists Kit for something to season the food with, and a container of salt would be quite useful.
A party doesn't really need a cook at all. The standard Rations that most folks cart around have biscuits with the consistence of stone called Hardtack, dried fruit, and nuts. Add in a little fresh game and fruit now and then, maybe a dash of salt, and it will keep you alive just fine. All you would really need is your mess kit. I've seen the kind a boy scout carries, which is just a one foot diameter pot with a lid that you can attach a handle to so it works as a frying pan. Inside are the bowls, cups, and silverware needed to eat as well as a little pitcher that in modern days is used to make coffee. (Back in Medieval times if coffee was available at all, it was rare. It was expensive because it had to be imported from a distant and somewhat unfriendly nation.)
Purify food and drink, and Create food and water will keep a party going essentially forever outside of the most harsh environments the planet has to offer. The Tiny Hut spell takes care of having a secure place to rest and eat. It doesn't take a whole lot of magic to survive, no matter where you need to set up camp. Just keep an eye out for the monsters. Those are what get people more often than not.
<Insert clever signature here>
I don't see how cooking is Wisdom based when there is more involved then common sense and instincts. I would say its for intelligence to understand how to combine acids, fats, protein, and vegetables into a delicious dish. Intelligence also encompasses experience.
There are culinary schools for a reason and even if learning from a master chef is more intelligence than wisdom. Survival would only be for foraging for ingredients, not the actual cooking.
If someone is proficient in Cook's utensils then I think they are good enough to know how how cook an egg or make a simple meal of bacon and rice.
I would only roll if they are trying to cooking with some unknown ingredient or making an elaborate meal.
A *lot* of people do absolutely cook by instinct and by taste. Tons of people, especially those who cook at home, don't follow set recipes. They just toss in whatever feels right and keep tasting the dish to judge what they need to add. That's absolutely a Wisdom-based task. You're spot on about what an Intelligence-based cook's utensils check would look like. But it's definitely not the only way to cook.
Your right that there are other ways to cook. I guess it will depend on the method of cooking chosen during a game.
Well, as I recall, the way tool proficiencies generally work is that you can combine your proficiency with different stats for different purposes. For example, with Woodworkers tools... if you're using them to craft an ornate device you might Roll a d20+Proficiency+DEX to represent using your dexterity to carefully craft fine details, or if you're looking at a wooden object and trying to find a weak spot on it you might roll a d20+Proficiency+INT since you're essentially Investigating it.
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That's certainly a common way to handle it, but RAW, your second example would not be a tool check at all. It probably would be investigation.
For what it's worth, I hate the tool rule here and would never in a million years call for checks based on it. But RAW, tool proficiencies only apply when you are actually using the tool; they don't represent the professional knowledge that comes with learning to use the tool. Here's the text, though (bolded the offending sentence for emphasis):
Whoever said it was only one roll..
BUT.. some of those "Rolls" may be Passive.
a history roll to remember, the recipe.. unless you have a cookbook.
Survival to make do.. the method of cooking.. Unless you have cooking utensils.
etc..
Medicine roll to make sure the ingredients are actually safe to eat. Unless....
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
I say Wis (Performance). Performance because this is an attempt to impress someone. I use Performance generally for anything with an "audience". You are producing a creative work targeted to have an effect on a specific individual or group.
Wisdom because wisdom is generally used for activities where experience, rather than book learning, is the determining factor in skill.
If you're trying to find a mushroom, use Survival. If you are trying to decide if a mushroom is poisonous or not, use Nature. But if you're trying to cook a mushroom, use Wis (Performance).
You use The Cook's Utensils, If you ARE using Cook's Utensils.
Long ago I was trying for the Cub Scout cooking badge..
we misunderstood what I needed to bring.
So when I found out I needed a vegetable, . . all anyone had was an onion..
What cooking utensil did I use.. none stuck a stick in it. and stuck it over the fire..
Did I make the utensil prof.. of course not..
Did I make the survival roll to cook it.
Nope.
I made the Con roll to eat it anyway.. and got the badge.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
I love roast onion. It’s especially good on a sandwich with chicken liver.
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If it’s some sort of concoction to heal, but not technically a potion, like a soup to keep from becoming cold/sick I’d have my players roll medicine. To simply cook food, I also think it would be survival
To just make food to eat I don’t call for anything. To make food taste fantastic I call for a Wis (cook's utensils) check.
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Made sense, cooking utensil proficiency would be better, but I’d say wisdom for anyone not proficient with cooking utensils wisdom or intelligence for anyone who is proficient which ever is hire.
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