"You’ve developed the skills necessary to hold your own in close-quarters grappling. You gain the following benefits:
You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
You can use your action to try to pin a creature grappled by you. To do so, make another grapple check. If you succeed, you and the creature are both restrained until the grapple ends. "
In relation to a target that is being restrained, does the first benefit of the Feat still apply. (You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.)
That is to say do attacks against the restrained target still have advantage?
The advantage from the first feature would be cancelled by the fact you have disadvantage from being restrained from the second ability. From restrained
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage
It’s good for a str rogue that grabs somebody, uses their body as half cover to gain to +2 AC and dex saves and then runs away with them while shanking them with the sneak attack they generated by giving themselves advantage.
proficiency is required for shields, but being strong is enough to make someone else your shield.
Advantage on all attack rolls against creatures you are grappling is not bad, it is quite good for a grappler! If a sword-n-board fighter could pick a feat that says "you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures you are attacking," we'd all be drooling over i! Grapplers fall behind other builds on damage, so being able to reliably have advantage every round is a good way to remedy that, and further distinguish the strengths of that style.
The restraint thing is also quite good! Guiding Bolt is an expensive way to try to give one party member advantage on one attack against an enemy, while the grappler can do that for the entire party and all of their attacks! Wow! There certainly is a cost associated with the ability (the grappler restrains themselves in the process), but a) being stuck with 0 move next to the enemy you've immobilized is probably what you wanted in the first place, and b) restrained targets attacking each other have their advantage/disadvantage canceled out, so it doesn't really disdadvantage you against your target other than by knocking out the advantage you have while only grappling. As Bobby pointed out, you probably can even use your grappled victim as cover for +2 or +5 AC against ranged/reach attacks, so other enemies having advantage against you isn't even much of a big deal.
Honestly it's a great feat, both bumping up the grappler's damage-per-round average, and giving them a strong control ability which is probably one of the best single-target-debuffs in the game.
Although the feat doesn't state that you are also prone when you restrain your target, it does say pin which implies it.
Even if your DM rules against the prone, you can forgo trying for the restrained condition and instead try to trip or shove your target prone. Being prone near your allies will still give them advantage to attack the target and give enemies using range disadvantage against you (assuming you go prone along with the target), and nothing says this releases the grapple effect on the target so he would now have 0 speed and would not be able to end the prone condition by standing up (requires half your movement) until they first ended the grapple condition.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
If a sword-n-board fighter could pick a feat that says "you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures you are attacking," we'd all be drooling over it!
Actually they don't need a feat for that. It's called Shove and it's the same check as a grapple. And it potentially gives your allies advantage too. And it's an attack rather than a full action.
The action cost of this feat is prohibitive. It's an entire action to pin someone so you need to grapple the first turn, hope they don't escape, and then give up all your attacks with advantage on the next turn. Hell, even if it didn't restrain you it still wouldn't be a great pick unless you just really, really wanted to focus on grappling or enemies were constantly running away in your campaign.
This feat does make grappling a bit better, but it still doesn't really make it an optimal strategy except in rare corner cases. Also the idea that you would do it for cover is laughable - being restrained in exchange for cover is a terrible deal for you defensively.
OP is right. This is not a good feat. Grapple builds are only discussed by people who really want to make a grapple build, because even if you invest heavily in them they just aren't competitive. It's a shame because it's an awesome archetype that I hope gets more love in the future.
If a sword-n-board fighter could pick a feat that says "you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures you are attacking," we'd all be drooling over it!
Actually they don't need a feat for that. It's called Shove and it's the same check as a grapple. And it potentially gives your allies advantage too. And it's an attack rather than a full action.
The action cost of this feat is prohibitive. It's an entire action to pin someone so you need to grapple the first turn, hope they don't escape, and then give up all your attacks with advantage on the next turn. Hell, even if it didn't restrain you it still wouldn't be a great pick unless you just really, really wanted to focus on grappling or enemies were constantly running away in your campaign.
This feat does make grappling a bit better, but it still doesn't really make it an optimal strategy except in rare corner cases. Also the idea that you would do it for cover is laughable - being restrained in exchange for cover is a terrible deal for you defensively.
OP is right. This is not a good feat. Grapple builds are only discussed by people who really want to make a grapple build, because even if you invest heavily in them they just aren't competitive. It's a shame because it's an awesome archetype that I hope gets more love in the future.
A grapple doesn't require an action to maintain: get a grapple in place, and the onus is on the victim if they ever want to get their movement back. Also, it costs their Action to attempt to get their movement back. A grappler, once using one (1) attack from a multi-attack Attack Action to initiate a grapple, then has advantage forever, until their victim finally passes a check.
A shove requires an attack, but only knocks the victim down until they stand up on their turn. Standing up only requires half their movement, and isn't hard to do at all.
Grappling someone with the Grappler feat is much stronger than shoving them down (from the perspective of a one-on-one contest), and much less burdensome on action economy. There's no room for difference of opinion on that, its just strictly superior.
And no one is saying that you would restrain someone in order to get cover... only that you should be able to argue to your DM that grappling (or restraining) an enemy gives you at least +2 AC against appropriately oriented attacks, if not +5, which is probably sufficient to mitigate if not entirely outweigh the penalty of having given attackers advantage against you.
Grapple builds are not DPR focused, so they get no love. But grappling as a means for a martial character to exert board control, buff the party, and debuff enemies (all not dependent on Spell Slots or other limited resources) is very very viable and valuable, and overall increases the party's DPR quite a bit.
Plus you don't have to pin, that would only be when your allies are nearby and not your enemies, so you would not be at disadvantage. And if you didn't pin then you would have advantage on your attacks on all subsequent turns for free until theu escaped the grapple.
Grappler feat is not the best, but far from the worst. Use it to your advantage in combat and have fun with it.
PS. Don't forget that when grappled not only does the enemy have no movement but you can drag them around and position them anywhere at half your movement.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
There are niche circumstances and builds that could make the grappler feat more useful than it first appears.
as I suggested in my earlier post, a rogue may be able to take advantage of the single target control that grappling tactics brings into the mix. They would also be able to generate their own sneak attack if there is no source of disadvantage to cancel their advantage. The increased likelihood of them landing their first attack with because of the advantage also increases the likelihood they can use their cunning action to for disengagement, dashing, and potentially even hiding behind the creature they are grappling.
if the party composition allows for buffs or features to reliably give the rogue a reaction attack then the expected damage from that rogue roughly doubles. An Example of this may be casting the haste spell on the rogue for the extra action to be used for the one attack while the rogues “normal” action can be used to ready an attack on another creatures turn. Another example might be an order domain cleric casting a 1st level spell on the rogue, or commanders strike from a battlemaster.
the rogues probable expertise in athletics almost guarantees their their grappling/shoving success.
the ability to pin a creature may not be useful under normal play conditions, but when a creature has advantage against you for some reason it can even the playing field. An example of this might be a devil casting darkness and attacking from within that darkness to gain advantage vs your party. A grappler can go in, grab the devil, and pin them. The resulting advantages and disadvantages even the playing field. If that same devil were dragged out, they could potentially recast the darkness spell and start it all over.
A high level rogue also gains the feature “elusive”. This feature takes away all creatures ability to target that rogue with advantage so long as that rogue isn’t incapacitated. This feature works substantially well at mitigating the shortfalls of the pin action gained by this feat.
races that have natural armor or armor proficiencies can bolster a Str rogues AC. The tortle might make a good choice with its str bonus and static 17 AC. Mountain dwarves have medium armor proficiency and the stats a grappler would want.
The pin action may be useful for a relatively low cost way of imposing disadvantage on a targets dexterity saves too. A pinned creature would be much more likely to take the full effects of a disintegrate or similar spell. Perhaps being held down while being burned to ashes from the immolation spell. It’s hard to stop drop and roll when you can’t move :)
I would agree that this feat is more subtle in its power. It's not an across the board thing that everyone should want on a melee character, but any melee character interested in controlling a target should look it over and see if their existing tactics make it enticing. It's a situational choice that will work for some and not others.
If a sword-n-board fighter could pick a feat that says "you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures you are attacking," we'd all be drooling over it!
Actually they don't need a feat for that. It's called Shove and it's the same check as a grapple. And it potentially gives your allies advantage too. And it's an attack rather than a full action.
The action cost of this feat is prohibitive. It's an entire action to pin someone so you need to grapple the first turn, hope they don't escape, and then give up all your attacks with advantage on the next turn. Hell, even if it didn't restrain you it still wouldn't be a great pick unless you just really, really wanted to focus on grappling or enemies were constantly running away in your campaign.
This feat does make grappling a bit better, but it still doesn't really make it an optimal strategy except in rare corner cases. Also the idea that you would do it for cover is laughable - being restrained in exchange for cover is a terrible deal for you defensively.
OP is right. This is not a good feat. Grapple builds are only discussed by people who really want to make a grapple build, because even if you invest heavily in them they just aren't competitive. It's a shame because it's an awesome archetype that I hope gets more love in the future.
Shove... they can just stand right back up.
grappled. They have to break free.
many people don’t like this feat because it’s a “team friendly” feat, vs a “make me an OP solo player” feat.
I looked at this Feat while designing a Shield and Grapple tank.
I believe Tavern Brawler is better. Shove the creature prone, make an attack with the shield as an Improvised Weapon with Advantage then grapple the target as a bonus action.
Grappler is not as versatile however, restraining a target and locking them down completely has advantages particularly against a single powerful adversary. I think I would pick Tavern Brawler first and Grappler later if at all.
==
Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You are proficient with improvised weapons.
Your unarmed strike uses a d4 for damage.
When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target.
Depending on your class, the bonus grapple from Tavern Brawler may not actually be an improvement to your action economy at all. A fifth level monk, for example, would get more out of grabbing a target with their first attack and then having 2-3 attacks with advantage (with Grappler feat), rather than making two attacks without advantage followed by a grapple (Tavern Brawler). TB is certainly a good feat (mostly because it gives a +1 str/con), but the mechanical advantage provided by Grappler to the character (advantage on all attacks vs grappled creature) and party (advantage on all attacks while restrained, disadvantage on reflex saves) is potentially much further reaching in the long run.
Depending on your class, the bonus grapple from Tavern Brawler may not actually be an improvement to your action economy at all. A fifth level monk, for example, would get more out of grabbing a target with their first attack and then having 2-3 attacks with advantage (with Grappler feat), rather than making two attacks without advantage followed by a grapple (Tavern Brawler). TB is certainly a good feat (mostly because it gives a +1 str/con), but the mechanical advantage provided by Grappler to the character (advantage on all attacks vs grappled creature) and party (advantage on all attacks while restrained, disadvantage on reflex saves) is potentially much further reaching in the long run.
Additionally.... and chicken correct me if I am wrong here.
Grappler: restrain them:
Restrained
A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attackrolls have disadvantage.
Depending on your class, the bonus grapple from Tavern Brawler may not actually be an improvement to your action economy at all. A fifth level monk, for example, would get more out of grabbing a target with their first attack and then having 2-3 attacks with advantage (with Grappler feat), rather than making two attacks without advantage followed by a grapple (Tavern Brawler). TB is certainly a good feat (mostly because it gives a +1 str/con), but the mechanical advantage provided by Grappler to the character (advantage on all attacks vs grappled creature) and party (advantage on all attacks while restrained, disadvantage on reflex saves) is potentially much further reaching in the long run.
Additionally.... and chicken correct me if I am wrong here.
Grappler: restrain them:
Restrained
A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attackrolls have disadvantage.
Ok, I need some clarification, so is this feat saying that....when you choose to have one of your attacks to be a "grapple," that you have advantage on that grappling attack roll?
OR...
Is it saying that if you've successfully put a creating in the "grappled" condition, your next attack roll would be at advantage?
so if it's the second one, a fighter with the grapple feat could always use his first attack to grapple and his second attack to attack that same creature at advantage?
Ok, I need some clarification, so is this feat saying that....when you choose to have one of your attacks to be a "grapple," that you have advantage on that grappling attack roll?
OR...
Is it saying that if you've successfully put a creating in the "grappled" condition, your next attack roll would be at advantage?
so if it's the second one, a fighter with the grapple feat could always use his first attack to grapple and his second attack to attack that same creature at advantage?
It is the second one, you have advantage on all attack rolls against a creature you are imposing the Grappled condition on. This lasts as long as the Grappled condition lasts and so as long as the enemy doesn't escape you continue to have advantage on subsequent rounds.
Grappling a creature takes a free hand to do, so no attacking with a two-handed weapon while grappling a creature. This doesn't come up much but it is possible to grapple two creatures at once using both hands and then attack them with unarmed strikes or natural weapons that don't require your hands. Finally you can also achieve advantage for melee attacks at least without this feat by shoving the grappled creature Prone. As long as they don't manage to escape the grapple they have no movement with which to stand back up.
"
In relation to a target that is being restrained, does the first benefit of the Feat still apply. (You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.)
That is to say do attacks against the restrained target still have advantage?
The advantage from the first feature would be cancelled by the fact you have disadvantage from being restrained from the second ability. From restrained
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Thanks for the feedback. This is a terrible Feat.
It is
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It’s good for a str rogue that grabs somebody, uses their body as half cover to gain to +2 AC and dex saves and then runs away with them while shanking them with the sneak attack they generated by giving themselves advantage.
proficiency is required for shields, but being strong is enough to make someone else your shield.
Advantage on all attack rolls against creatures you are grappling is not bad, it is quite good for a grappler! If a sword-n-board fighter could pick a feat that says "you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures you are attacking," we'd all be drooling over i! Grapplers fall behind other builds on damage, so being able to reliably have advantage every round is a good way to remedy that, and further distinguish the strengths of that style.
The restraint thing is also quite good! Guiding Bolt is an expensive way to try to give one party member advantage on one attack against an enemy, while the grappler can do that for the entire party and all of their attacks! Wow! There certainly is a cost associated with the ability (the grappler restrains themselves in the process), but a) being stuck with 0 move next to the enemy you've immobilized is probably what you wanted in the first place, and b) restrained targets attacking each other have their advantage/disadvantage canceled out, so it doesn't really disdadvantage you against your target other than by knocking out the advantage you have while only grappling. As Bobby pointed out, you probably can even use your grappled victim as cover for +2 or +5 AC against ranged/reach attacks, so other enemies having advantage against you isn't even much of a big deal.
Honestly it's a great feat, both bumping up the grappler's damage-per-round average, and giving them a strong control ability which is probably one of the best single-target-debuffs in the game.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Although the feat doesn't state that you are also prone when you restrain your target, it does say pin which implies it.
Even if your DM rules against the prone, you can forgo trying for the restrained condition and instead try to trip or shove your target prone. Being prone near your allies will still give them advantage to attack the target and give enemies using range disadvantage against you (assuming you go prone along with the target), and nothing says this releases the grapple effect on the target so he would now have 0 speed and would not be able to end the prone condition by standing up (requires half your movement) until they first ended the grapple condition.
Actually they don't need a feat for that. It's called Shove and it's the same check as a grapple. And it potentially gives your allies advantage too. And it's an attack rather than a full action.
The action cost of this feat is prohibitive. It's an entire action to pin someone so you need to grapple the first turn, hope they don't escape, and then give up all your attacks with advantage on the next turn. Hell, even if it didn't restrain you it still wouldn't be a great pick unless you just really, really wanted to focus on grappling or enemies were constantly running away in your campaign.
This feat does make grappling a bit better, but it still doesn't really make it an optimal strategy except in rare corner cases. Also the idea that you would do it for cover is laughable - being restrained in exchange for cover is a terrible deal for you defensively.
OP is right. This is not a good feat. Grapple builds are only discussed by people who really want to make a grapple build, because even if you invest heavily in them they just aren't competitive. It's a shame because it's an awesome archetype that I hope gets more love in the future.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A grapple doesn't require an action to maintain: get a grapple in place, and the onus is on the victim if they ever want to get their movement back. Also, it costs their Action to attempt to get their movement back. A grappler, once using one (1) attack from a multi-attack Attack Action to initiate a grapple, then has advantage forever, until their victim finally passes a check.
A shove requires an attack, but only knocks the victim down until they stand up on their turn. Standing up only requires half their movement, and isn't hard to do at all.
Grappling someone with the Grappler feat is much stronger than shoving them down (from the perspective of a one-on-one contest), and much less burdensome on action economy. There's no room for difference of opinion on that, its just strictly superior.
And no one is saying that you would restrain someone in order to get cover... only that you should be able to argue to your DM that grappling (or restraining) an enemy gives you at least +2 AC against appropriately oriented attacks, if not +5, which is probably sufficient to mitigate if not entirely outweigh the penalty of having given attackers advantage against you.
Grapple builds are not DPR focused, so they get no love. But grappling as a means for a martial character to exert board control, buff the party, and debuff enemies (all not dependent on Spell Slots or other limited resources) is very very viable and valuable, and overall increases the party's DPR quite a bit.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Plus you don't have to pin, that would only be when your allies are nearby and not your enemies, so you would not be at disadvantage. And if you didn't pin then you would have advantage on your attacks on all subsequent turns for free until theu escaped the grapple.
Grappler feat is not the best, but far from the worst. Use it to your advantage in combat and have fun with it.
PS. Don't forget that when grappled not only does the enemy have no movement but you can drag them around and position them anywhere at half your movement.
There are niche circumstances and builds that could make the grappler feat more useful than it first appears.
as I suggested in my earlier post, a rogue may be able to take advantage of the single target control that grappling tactics brings into the mix. They would also be able to generate their own sneak attack if there is no source of disadvantage to cancel their advantage. The increased likelihood of them landing their first attack with because of the advantage also increases the likelihood they can use their cunning action to for disengagement, dashing, and potentially even hiding behind the creature they are grappling.
if the party composition allows for buffs or features to reliably give the rogue a reaction attack then the expected damage from that rogue roughly doubles. An Example of this may be casting the haste spell on the rogue for the extra action to be used for the one attack while the rogues “normal” action can be used to ready an attack on another creatures turn. Another example might be an order domain cleric casting a 1st level spell on the rogue, or commanders strike from a battlemaster.
the rogues probable expertise in athletics almost guarantees their their grappling/shoving success.
the ability to pin a creature may not be useful under normal play conditions, but when a creature has advantage against you for some reason it can even the playing field. An example of this might be a devil casting darkness and attacking from within that darkness to gain advantage vs your party. A grappler can go in, grab the devil, and pin them. The resulting advantages and disadvantages even the playing field. If that same devil were dragged out, they could potentially recast the darkness spell and start it all over.
A high level rogue also gains the feature “elusive”. This feature takes away all creatures ability to target that rogue with advantage so long as that rogue isn’t incapacitated. This feature works substantially well at mitigating the shortfalls of the pin action gained by this feat.
races that have natural armor or armor proficiencies can bolster a Str rogues AC. The tortle might make a good choice with its str bonus and static 17 AC. Mountain dwarves have medium armor proficiency and the stats a grappler would want.
The pin action may be useful for a relatively low cost way of imposing disadvantage on a targets dexterity saves too. A pinned creature would be much more likely to take the full effects of a disintegrate or similar spell. Perhaps being held down while being burned to ashes from the immolation spell. It’s hard to stop drop and roll when you can’t move :)
I would agree that this feat is more subtle in its power. It's not an across the board thing that everyone should want on a melee character, but any melee character interested in controlling a target should look it over and see if their existing tactics make it enticing. It's a situational choice that will work for some and not others.
Shove... they can just stand right back up.
grappled. They have to break free.
many people don’t like this feat because it’s a “team friendly” feat, vs a “make me an OP solo player” feat.
sharpshooter helps yourself. Grappler helps others.
magic initiate helps yourself. Healer feat helps others. Etc.
Watch me on twitch
I looked at this Feat while designing a Shield and Grapple tank.
I believe Tavern Brawler is better. Shove the creature prone, make an attack with the shield as an Improvised Weapon with Advantage then grapple the target as a bonus action.
Grappler is not as versatile however, restraining a target and locking them down completely has advantages particularly against a single powerful adversary. I think I would pick Tavern Brawler first and Grappler later if at all.
==
Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:
Depending on your class, the bonus grapple from Tavern Brawler may not actually be an improvement to your action economy at all. A fifth level monk, for example, would get more out of grabbing a target with their first attack and then having 2-3 attacks with advantage (with Grappler feat), rather than making two attacks without advantage followed by a grapple (Tavern Brawler). TB is certainly a good feat (mostly because it gives a +1 str/con), but the mechanical advantage provided by Grappler to the character (advantage on all attacks vs grappled creature) and party (advantage on all attacks while restrained, disadvantage on reflex saves) is potentially much further reaching in the long run.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Additionally.... and chicken correct me if I am wrong here.
Grappler: restrain them:
Restrained
those are the pros.
shove attack: prone:
Prone
attacks vs restrained have advantage from any distance. Not just 5 feet away and disadvantage if further than 5.
disadvantge on Dex saves is a big deal.
call me crazy... but you typically have more people in a party that attack from further than 5 ft away than from 5 ft away.
Watch me on twitch
All good points. The Advantage provided to range attacks by Restrained is a biggie, but it is still very situational.
I think it will need to be a very forgiving DM who ignores a melee character who willingly puts themselves in a restrained condition.
I agree that against one single powerful NPC Grappler is mind-blowing, but if there are other NPCs it is very risky.
Advantage on attacks against grappled target is also nice.
Ok, I need some clarification, so is this feat saying that....when you choose to have one of your attacks to be a "grapple," that you have advantage on that grappling attack roll?
OR...
Is it saying that if you've successfully put a creating in the "grappled" condition, your next attack roll would be at advantage?
so if it's the second one, a fighter with the grapple feat could always use his first attack to grapple and his second attack to attack that same creature at advantage?
It is the second one, you have advantage on all attack rolls against a creature you are imposing the Grappled condition on. This lasts as long as the Grappled condition lasts and so as long as the enemy doesn't escape you continue to have advantage on subsequent rounds.
Grappling a creature takes a free hand to do, so no attacking with a two-handed weapon while grappling a creature. This doesn't come up much but it is possible to grapple two creatures at once using both hands and then attack them with unarmed strikes or natural weapons that don't require your hands. Finally you can also achieve advantage for melee attacks at least without this feat by shoving the grappled creature Prone. As long as they don't manage to escape the grapple they have no movement with which to stand back up.
This would be the perfect feat for a pair of mob enforcers who concentrated in hand to hand combat.
One grapples and the other inflicts continuing punishment.
But its not for a battle field tactic.