I'm all for creative uses of spells and whatnot, and generally try to make small exceptions to RAW (want to stop a leak for a few moments with a Ray of Frost? Sure. Want to burn through some rope using conjured acid from Acid Splash? No problem).
But trying to insta-kill things with an intentionally harmless low-level spell? Nope. I don't give a flying rat's arse about the specific wording - the answer is still a resounding 'not a fluffing chance'.
I can't be bothered to rules-lawyer the technicalities or wordings - doesn't matter in the slightest. I don't want you instant-killing an enemy with a low-level non-combat spell, so you can't. Want to poly the enemy into a bunny then Power-Word-Kill it? Fine and dandy, serious high magic, I'm A-OK. Killing the enemy with a simple casting of 1st level spell? **** no.
Why?
Well let me put it this way: anything you can do, the monsters can do. So do you want monsters that can instant-kill you starting from player levels 1 and over multiple times per day, no saves, forcing you to make new characters several times per session? No? Didn't think so. That's why.
But that's just me and what I'd do in my games.
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Personally, I like rewarding creativity, however, if you allow it once, it sets a precedent that the player can just insta kill most humanoids. What I would rule is that you can roll a spell attack against the targets ac+5 as I would consider it 3/4 cover. If you hit, they begin suffocating and either take an action to cough the water up or continue fighting as if they were holding their breath. So let's say it's a regular human with a con mod of +1. They can fight for 2 mins before dropping to 0 hp, or could spend their turn coughing up most of the water, taking them out of the game for a round. I would also require the CHARACTER to have prior knowledge of that application, maybe an arcana, religion or history check to see if they recall that application. I don't agree that dnd is a game and therefore should be balanced, creativity can demolish rules for all I care, if you think I'm not gonna balance it cause you're low level, the problem comes when the player then uses that 1 moment of genius in the future and just 1 shots all humanoids, cause you can't do that, cause you were creative ONCE and are riding that wave continuously, if you want the op application, you have to demonstrate continuous creative uses.
There's a way to fill someone's lungs with water. First you need to succeed a grapple check. Once you have control of their person, you'll probably have to succeed another athletics check to shove their head into a barrel of water. Then finally, you'll need to hold them there for several minutes until they start to drown. Done.
I would allow Destroy Water if the creature were a water creature like an elemental or water weird.
I would not. Blight already covers that, and I'm not going to let someone use a 1st level spell to get the same effect as a 4th level spell.
To play devil's advocate here, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just let the spell do a high amount of damage for a 1st level spell. There's already precedent for specific spells having special interactions with creatures, and lots of precedent for the same spell affecting objects and creatures differently (e.g. Shatter.)
That said I'm very much not a fan of scope creep in cantrips. They're basic at will actions, they're not meant to be versatile.
Here is my two cents: your lungs are not containers. They are mainly a mass of tissue with tubes and sacks to hold and transport the air. Ergo, not eligible for create and destroy water
I would allow Destroy Water if the creature were a water creature like an elemental or water weird.
I would not. Blight already covers that, and I'm not going to let someone use a 1st level spell to get the same effect as a 4th level spell.
To play devil's advocate here, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just let the spell do a high amount of damage for a 1st level spell. There's already precedent for specific spells having special interactions with creatures, and lots of precedent for the same spell affecting objects and creatures differently (e.g. Shatter.)
There's precedent for that, but the original idea was that it could act as an instant kill button against water elementals, making it even more powerful than Blight, which damages targets by draining the water out of them and only does automatic max damage vs water elementals. There's no precident for a spell cast using a 1st level spell slot hitting a target harder than one cast using a 4th level spell slot.
Sure, but can we discuss Hold person and manually filling the lungs with water? No magic to create the water just magic to prevent them from stopping you.
I wouldn't allow it, both because the lungs aren't a container and because it would be a boring way to end a fight.
Now, I would rule that a targets bladder is a container, and you could cast to make someone need to go for a loo break, potentially splitting an enemy group up - used as a utility and not an attack.
Now, if a BBEG created an impassable barrier around himself and laughed that they couldn't get him, so they decided to fill it with water and drown him - great thinking guys, the BBEG stops the shield so he can breathe.
The other thing is that if your lungs were suddenly full of water, you would cough it back up. I'd impart disadvantage and half movement to the afflicted party as they cough water up everywhere. They certainly wouldn't instantly suffocate.
Sometimes I wonder why they make rule books for the game, it seems half the people playing D&D don't read them and half of the people that do read them just ignore them.
It says, very clearly, that you can't use those spells in this way. They don't cause damage and don't have an attack roll or saving throw. You have to be able to see with your own eyes the exact target spot - you can't see the lungs of another person unless they have been sliced up to the point that their insides have become their outsides. Most importantly a container is an OBJECT whilst people are CREATURES. They are completely separate. create or destroy water only targets open containers (objects).
That means you can't destroy the water in their blood, or their eyes, or their brains etc as they are not open or containers. You can't make water appear in them either because they are not containers.
Now, I would rule that a targets bladder is a container, and you could cast to make someone need to go for a loo break, potentially splitting an enemy group up - used as a utility and not an attack.
Look at another person, a real, live, living person. Without cutting them open - can you see their bladder? If not then how can you target it when the rules explicitly say you can't target a spell on something you cannot see?
Now, I would rule that a targets bladder is a container, and you could cast to make someone need to go for a loo break, potentially splitting an enemy group up - used as a utility and not an attack.
Look at another person, a real, live, living person. Without cutting them open - can you see their bladder? If not then how can you target it when the rules explicitly say you can't target a spell on something you cannot see?
You're absolutely right that the rules don't allow it, and any deviation is homebrew - but if the players asked me to let them fill a guards bladder with create water, I'd say that's a resourceful use of the spell and not abusive, so I'd give them a chance at doing it - though I'd give them a "just this once" justification. Plus if they failed, they would just soak the guard instead - but I agree, RAW you can't.
Sure, but can we discuss Hold person and manually filling the lungs with water? No magic to create the water just magic to prevent them from stopping you.
I wouldn't allow it, both because the lungs aren't a container and because it would be a boring way to end a fight.
If this was a response to the person above, they're not talking about Create Water anymore. They're saying use Hold Person and then take a pitcher and dumping it down their throat.
I would say that Hold Person, while thoroughly constraining you, doesn't paralyze you to the extent that you can't close your epiglottis or whatever and swallow the water instead of breathing it in. At that point it's kind of the same situation as if you were doing it to someone who was thoroughly tied up. That's darker and more disturbing than I like my games to get, but that's how I'd rule it working.
There's precedent for that, but the original idea was that it could act as an instant kill button against water elementals, making it even more powerful than Blight, which damages targets by draining the water out of them and only does automatic max damage vs water elementals. There's no precident for a spell cast using a 1st level spell slot hitting a target harder than one cast using a 4th level spell slot.
Where do you see those descriptions of Blight? The spell says it "drains moisture" and that it does maximum damage to plant creatures and magical plants. Nothing about Water Elementals.
In the case of Destroy Water, I'd allow it to have some kind of special affect on Water Elementals. Possibly the 8d8 that Blight does -- so not instant kill, but massive damage nonetheless thanks to creative use of the spell. After all, this is a SUPER niche use of a first level spell. It's not mimicking Blight entirely, since Blight does that damage to everything it targets.
Where do you see those descriptions of Blight? The spell says it "drains moisture" and that it does maximum damage to plant creatures and magical plants. Nothing about Water Elementals.
In the case of Destroy Water, I'd allow it to have some kind of special affect on Water Elementals. Possibly the 8d8 that Blight does -- so not instant kill, but massive damage nonetheless thanks to creative use of the spell. After all, this is a SUPER niche use of a first level spell. It's not mimicking Blight entirely, since Blight does that damage to everything it targets.
8d8 against anything as a 1st level spell is OP.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
In a single situation? Nah, disagree. You'd need to (a) be in combat against a water elemental, (b) have a party member that prepared/knows Destroy Water, and (c) have them try the spell, which is normally non-combat related, against said water elemental. If a player does all those things in the interest of making something cool happen to this water elemental, then yeah I'm going to let them get some extraordinary benefits.
Creative use of low levels spells is something I'd like to encourage much, much more than boring usage of higher level spells.
In a single situation? Nah, disagree. You'd need to (a) be in combat against a water elemental, (b) have a party member that prepared/knows Destroy Water, and (c) have them try the spell, which is normally non-combat related, against said water elemental. If a player does all those things in the interest of making something cool happen to this water elemental, then yeah I'm going to let them get some extraordinary benefits.
Creative use of low levels spells is something I'd like to encourage much, much more than boring usage of higher level spells.
Nobody would try it because the spell specifically does not state damage or effects against creatures.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
In a single situation? Nah, disagree. You'd need to (a) be in combat against a water elemental, (b) have a party member that prepared/knows Destroy Water, and (c) have them try the spell, which is normally non-combat related, against said water elemental. If a player does all those things in the interest of making something cool happen to this water elemental, then yeah I'm going to let them get some extraordinary benefits.
Creative use of low levels spells is something I'd like to encourage much, much more than boring usage of higher level spells.
Nobody would try it because the spell specifically does not state damage or effects against creatures.
I've DMed a total of like six times and I've had players ask about creative uses for spells (yes, including attempting to do damage with non-damage spells) in at least half of them. Embrace creativity.
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I'm all for creative uses of spells and whatnot, and generally try to make small exceptions to RAW (want to stop a leak for a few moments with a Ray of Frost? Sure. Want to burn through some rope using conjured acid from Acid Splash? No problem).
But trying to insta-kill things with an intentionally harmless low-level spell? Nope. I don't give a flying rat's arse about the specific wording - the answer is still a resounding 'not a fluffing chance'.
I can't be bothered to rules-lawyer the technicalities or wordings - doesn't matter in the slightest. I don't want you instant-killing an enemy with a low-level non-combat spell, so you can't. Want to poly the enemy into a bunny then Power-Word-Kill it? Fine and dandy, serious high magic, I'm A-OK. Killing the enemy with a simple casting of 1st level spell? **** no.
Why?
Well let me put it this way: anything you can do, the monsters can do. So do you want monsters that can instant-kill you starting from player levels 1 and over multiple times per day, no saves, forcing you to make new characters several times per session? No? Didn't think so. That's why.
But that's just me and what I'd do in my games.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Personally, I like rewarding creativity, however, if you allow it once, it sets a precedent that the player can just insta kill most humanoids. What I would rule is that you can roll a spell attack against the targets ac+5 as I would consider it 3/4 cover. If you hit, they begin suffocating and either take an action to cough the water up or continue fighting as if they were holding their breath. So let's say it's a regular human with a con mod of +1. They can fight for 2 mins before dropping to 0 hp, or could spend their turn coughing up most of the water, taking them out of the game for a round. I would also require the CHARACTER to have prior knowledge of that application, maybe an arcana, religion or history check to see if they recall that application. I don't agree that dnd is a game and therefore should be balanced, creativity can demolish rules for all I care, if you think I'm not gonna balance it cause you're low level, the problem comes when the player then uses that 1 moment of genius in the future and just 1 shots all humanoids, cause you can't do that, cause you were creative ONCE and are riding that wave continuously, if you want the op application, you have to demonstrate continuous creative uses.
You're making harder work for yourself than needed.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
There's a way to fill someone's lungs with water. First you need to succeed a grapple check. Once you have control of their person, you'll probably have to succeed another athletics check to shove their head into a barrel of water. Then finally, you'll need to hold them there for several minutes until they start to drown. Done.
Or you can just, you know, stab them until they die.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
I would not. Blight already covers that, and I'm not going to let someone use a 1st level spell to get the same effect as a 4th level spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
To play devil's advocate here, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just let the spell do a high amount of damage for a 1st level spell. There's already precedent for specific spells having special interactions with creatures, and lots of precedent for the same spell affecting objects and creatures differently (e.g. Shatter.)
That said I'm very much not a fan of scope creep in cantrips. They're basic at will actions, they're not meant to be versatile.
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Here is my two cents: your lungs are not containers. They are mainly a mass of tissue with tubes and sacks to hold and transport the air. Ergo, not eligible for create and destroy water
I exist, and I guess so does this
There's precedent for that, but the original idea was that it could act as an instant kill button against water elementals, making it even more powerful than Blight, which damages targets by draining the water out of them and only does automatic max damage vs water elementals. There's no precident for a spell cast using a 1st level spell slot hitting a target harder than one cast using a 4th level spell slot.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Sure, but can we discuss Hold person and manually filling the lungs with water? No magic to create the water just magic to prevent them from stopping you.
I wouldn't allow it, both because the lungs aren't a container and because it would be a boring way to end a fight.
Now, I would rule that a targets bladder is a container, and you could cast to make someone need to go for a loo break, potentially splitting an enemy group up - used as a utility and not an attack.
Now, if a BBEG created an impassable barrier around himself and laughed that they couldn't get him, so they decided to fill it with water and drown him - great thinking guys, the BBEG stops the shield so he can breathe.
The other thing is that if your lungs were suddenly full of water, you would cough it back up. I'd impart disadvantage and half movement to the afflicted party as they cough water up everywhere. They certainly wouldn't instantly suffocate.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Sometimes I wonder why they make rule books for the game, it seems half the people playing D&D don't read them and half of the people that do read them just ignore them.
It says, very clearly, that you can't use those spells in this way. They don't cause damage and don't have an attack roll or saving throw. You have to be able to see with your own eyes the exact target spot - you can't see the lungs of another person unless they have been sliced up to the point that their insides have become their outsides. Most importantly a container is an OBJECT whilst people are CREATURES. They are completely separate. create or destroy water only targets open containers (objects).
That means you can't destroy the water in their blood, or their eyes, or their brains etc as they are not open or containers. You can't make water appear in them either because they are not containers.
Look at another person, a real, live, living person. Without cutting them open - can you see their bladder? If not then how can you target it when the rules explicitly say you can't target a spell on something you cannot see?
You're absolutely right that the rules don't allow it, and any deviation is homebrew - but if the players asked me to let them fill a guards bladder with create water, I'd say that's a resourceful use of the spell and not abusive, so I'd give them a chance at doing it - though I'd give them a "just this once" justification. Plus if they failed, they would just soak the guard instead - but I agree, RAW you can't.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
If this was a response to the person above, they're not talking about Create Water anymore. They're saying use Hold Person and then take a pitcher and dumping it down their throat.
I would say that Hold Person, while thoroughly constraining you, doesn't paralyze you to the extent that you can't close your epiglottis or whatever and swallow the water instead of breathing it in. At that point it's kind of the same situation as if you were doing it to someone who was thoroughly tied up. That's darker and more disturbing than I like my games to get, but that's how I'd rule it working.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Where do you see those descriptions of Blight? The spell says it "drains moisture" and that it does maximum damage to plant creatures and magical plants. Nothing about Water Elementals.
In the case of Destroy Water, I'd allow it to have some kind of special affect on Water Elementals. Possibly the 8d8 that Blight does -- so not instant kill, but massive damage nonetheless thanks to creative use of the spell. After all, this is a SUPER niche use of a first level spell. It's not mimicking Blight entirely, since Blight does that damage to everything it targets.
8d8 against anything as a 1st level spell is OP.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
In a single situation? Nah, disagree. You'd need to (a) be in combat against a water elemental, (b) have a party member that prepared/knows Destroy Water, and (c) have them try the spell, which is normally non-combat related, against said water elemental. If a player does all those things in the interest of making something cool happen to this water elemental, then yeah I'm going to let them get some extraordinary benefits.
Creative use of low levels spells is something I'd like to encourage much, much more than boring usage of higher level spells.
Nobody would try it because the spell specifically does not state damage or effects against creatures.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I've DMed a total of like six times and I've had players ask about creative uses for spells (yes, including attempting to do damage with non-damage spells) in at least half of them. Embrace creativity.