Agreed....Bards really didn't need much of anything and the options they got were just too good I think.
spell versatillity for bards is really nice, just as nice as it is for any other spellcasting class and they deserve it just as much (in fact they might as well introduce it as an optional mechanic for every class who knows their spells), and while some of the extra bard spells might be a bit redundant or does not really fit, command, cause fear, aid and especially mass healing word are all spells they should have had from the start (why did they get mass cure wounds but not mass healing word in the first place, weird). Also bards are the only people who would ever use tenser's transformation in the first place, not forcing them to use one of their very limited magical secrets to do so is fine. Using magical healing to boost the damage of fireball or to reduce the drawbacks of healing word for your party members? that might be a bit less fine.
but ya know what might be neat? optional reduced spell lists, all these are only available if the DM decides that they are, they are non essential, and so in order to challenge players they might introduce an option that reduces the spell lists of classes to only those spells that are core and vitally important to the class while removing options that are not, for instance optionally removing cure wounds, mass cure wounds, speak with animals and illusory script from the bard list, optionally removing detect magic, cure wounds, fog cloud, alarm, and absorb elements from the ranger list, in other words instead of optional rules that expand, you have optional rules that restrict and focus an class on the bare essentials, would not be popular and might not be fun, just an idea
Actually, I guess there are 2 exceptions. At higher levels, most of the damage spells deal Fire, Radiant, or Necrotic damage. More recently a few Psychic damage spells have also appeared. That's kind of it -- other damage types simply don't exist at this high of a level. This presents a problem for the tailor-made spell lists. For example, the Storm Sorcerer currently would max out at 6th level, where they learn Chain Lightning. There are only 4 higher level spells that deal either Lightning or Thunder damage: Prismatic Spray if you happen to get the correct color of ray, Illusory Dragon if you choose Lightning, Prismatic Wall when an enemy willingly makes contact with the Yellow layer, and Storm of Vengeance on the initial cast and the 3rd following round. A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer who chooses a Black Dragon for their ancestor (Acid damage) is in equal or worse shape, because their highest level spell dealing Acid damage is Vitriolic Sphere at 4th level. The higher level spell catalog needs some fleshing out before this kind of solution (which I think would be a much better alternative) can be workable.
isint the whole gimmic of illusiory dragon that all damage it deals is psychic damage but the targets all think that the damage is of the appropriate type?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Actually, I guess there are 2 exceptions. At higher levels, most of the damage spells deal Fire, Radiant, or Necrotic damage. More recently a few Psychic damage spells have also appeared. That's kind of it -- other damage types simply don't exist at this high of a level. This presents a problem for the tailor-made spell lists. For example, the Storm Sorcerer currently would max out at 6th level, where they learn Chain Lightning. There are only 4 higher level spells that deal either Lightning or Thunder damage: Prismatic Spray if you happen to get the correct color of ray, Illusory Dragon if you choose Lightning, Prismatic Wall when an enemy willingly makes contact with the Yellow layer, and Storm of Vengeance on the initial cast and the 3rd following round. A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer who chooses a Black Dragon for their ancestor (Acid damage) is in equal or worse shape, because their highest level spell dealing Acid damage is Vitriolic Sphere at 4th level. The higher level spell catalog needs some fleshing out before this kind of solution (which I think would be a much better alternative) can be workable.
isint the whole gimmic of illusiory dragon that all damage it deals is psychic damage but the targets all think that the damage is of the appropriate type?
Nope. The illusion actually does whatever damage type you choose, not psychic damage.
Actually, I guess there are 2 exceptions. At higher levels, most of the damage spells deal Fire, Radiant, or Necrotic damage. More recently a few Psychic damage spells have also appeared. That's kind of it -- other damage types simply don't exist at this high of a level. This presents a problem for the tailor-made spell lists. For example, the Storm Sorcerer currently would max out at 6th level, where they learn Chain Lightning. There are only 4 higher level spells that deal either Lightning or Thunder damage: Prismatic Spray if you happen to get the correct color of ray, Illusory Dragon if you choose Lightning, Prismatic Wall when an enemy willingly makes contact with the Yellow layer, and Storm of Vengeance on the initial cast and the 3rd following round. A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer who chooses a Black Dragon for their ancestor (Acid damage) is in equal or worse shape, because their highest level spell dealing Acid damage is Vitriolic Sphere at 4th level. The higher level spell catalog needs some fleshing out before this kind of solution (which I think would be a much better alternative) can be workable.
isint the whole gimmic of illusiory dragon that all damage it deals is psychic damage but the targets all think that the damage is of the appropriate type?
Nope. The illusion actually does whatever damage type you choose, not psychic damage.
yeah went back and checked, turns out i am wrong, must have mixed it up with phantasmal killer / force.
Anyways why would changing your spells on a long rest and origin spells be mutually exclusive? why not give the sorcerer both? Also it be neat if dragon sorcerers get illusory dragon, but i also get why it is not since it is just an really advanced illusion and wizards are meant to be on the cutting edge of spell research, the elemental thing that lets you change damage types also in this UA goes a long way for more options.
Also burning hands is still useful even if you already have fireball since it can be cast more often, but burning hands is also made completely irrelevant by dragon's breath since that is just a burning hands per turn for several turns given to you or a companion, so that is a bad comparison but like low level spells are not completely irrelevant for high level spellcasters
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Anyways why would changing your spells on a long rest and origin spells be mutually exclusive? why not give the sorcerer both? Also it be neat if dragon sorcerers get illusory dragon, but i also get why it is not since it is just an really advanced illusion and wizards are meant to be on the cutting edge of spell research, the elemental thing that lets you change damage types also in this UA goes a long way for more options.
That was directed at a different topic. Pipino suggested that Sorcerers should either learn a larger number of spells, or have their spell list reworked from the ground up, with each Origin getting an Expanded Spell List of appropriate and effective spells. These things were suggestions instead of the ability to swap out known spells. I was expanding on that solution to say that overall, the entire compendium of all D&D spells, needs some filling out at the top end, because spells overwhelmingly do one of 3 types at higher levels -- Fire, Psychic, Bludgeoning (surprisingly). Acid gives out at 4th level spells, aside from Illusory Dragon. Lightning gives out at 6th level, side from Illusory Dragon. If you restrict to only Sorcerer spells, it gets much worse, because Illusory Dragon is not on the Sorcerer Spell List. And as for the optional Elemental type swapping Metamagic... I have mixed feelings about that. It could be useful and effective, but it's also another engine running off of your limited pool of Sorcery Points. It would be useful for a high level Storm Sorcerer to trigger their zap-on-cast 6th level feature, to account for the slim total number of spells dealing either Thunder or Lightning damage. But I feel like that's more of a band-aid than a solution.
That's actually an interesting point, though, about Draconian Sorcerers and Illusory Dragon. I feel like they should get the spell, but when they cast it the element of Dragon they can summon is limited to the ancestor they chose as part of their Origin. But that would be a rework of the class, not an alternate feature, so it's beyond the scope of 5e.
Also burning hands is still useful even if you already have fireball since it can be cast more often, but burning hands is also made completely irrelevant by dragon's breath since that is just a burning hands per turn for several turns given to you or a companion, so that is a bad comparison but like low level spells are not completely irrelevant for high level spellcasters
I'd rather cast something like Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile, though, rather than Burning Hands. Lacking proficiency with Armor or Shields, Sorcerers tend to be squishy. At higher levels, I'd rather not get within 15 feet of a group of things in order to barbecue them. I'd rather do it from a distance. Frankly, every spellcaster who can learn either of those spells should find a way to make at least one of them fit on their spell list, because they are both very useful at clearing low health riff-raff. And they can both be upcast for greater effects that make them both more useful.
Pipino suggested that Sorcerers should either learn a larger number of spells, or have their spell list reworked from the ground up, with each Origin getting an Expanded Spell List of appropriate and effective spells. These things were suggestions instead of the ability to swap out known spells.
yes but here is the thing, i dont see why an expansion to the known spells of an sorcerer should be mutually exclusive to this other feature that is otherwise available to every other spell caster. It does not step on too many toes and does not give the class any more raw power, only a chance to replace bad decisions and slowly adapt to new threats, and in general why even just give higher raw amounts of spells to the sorcerer, when spellcasting flexibillity and knowing many spells is not the thing that derives the fun out of the class. Maybe expanded spell lists like warlock would be cool in many cases (as already mentioned, this is why celestial is the coolest class and many spells could fit), perhaps an minor version of magical secrets at level 20, but why have just larger amounts of known spells?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Pipino suggested that Sorcerers should either learn a larger number of spells, or have their spell list reworked from the ground up, with each Origin getting an Expanded Spell List of appropriate and effective spells. These things were suggestions instead of the ability to swap out known spells.
yes but here is the thing, i dont see why an expansion to the known spells of an sorcerer should be mutually exclusive to this other feature that is otherwise available to every other spell caster. It does not step on too many toes and does not give the class any more raw power, only a chance to replace bad decisions and slowly adapt to new threats, and in general why even just give higher raw amounts of spells to the sorcerer, when spellcasting flexibillity and knowing many spells is not the thing that derives the fun out of the class. Maybe expanded spell lists like warlock would be cool in many cases (as already mentioned, this is why celestial is the coolest class and many spells could fit), perhaps an minor version of magical secrets at level 20, but why have just larger amounts of known spells?
The point is to make an either/or scenario. Either you get better options to pick from, so there are less wasted options requiring the ability to repick to stay relevant, or you get to pick more options so it doesn't matter if you have some that are only effective at early game because you have more tools at your disposal.
I'm not disagreeing with you that repicking spells per Long Rest is a good solution. I'm saying that other solutions might be better, and might also fit better thematically. This is not a binary discussion where only one or the other is valid with zero in-between.
You get to teleport the talisman within 120 feet of you AND on the next turn can channel spells from the talisman's location. Then bring it back to yourself on the bonus action.
You're getting a portal. All those "positional" spells like Lightning Bolt or Fireball or their ilk are completely viable bombs to drop with your limited spell slots.
It's been seven months and it still looks like this isn't anywhere on Beyond. I asked about it on Twitter pre-pandemic and they said they don't do ETAs. It sucks because while most of the subclasses are cool, this UA was the coolest and most game changing. Is there any word now?
Warlocks can already access animate dead through an eldritch invocation in Tasha's.
this thread was started long before tasha's cauldron of everything was released, much of what this UA described did end up in tasha's, and much of it did not
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Warlocks can already access animate dead through an eldritch invocation in Tasha's.
this thread was started long before tasha's cauldron of everything was released, much of what this UA described did end up in tasha's, and much of it did not
I know that it was started long before Tasha's was released, but what I replied to wasn't posted before Tasha's was released. So I am informing them that this is a thing.
Would it be broken to give a Warlock the animate dead spell? Looking at the UA "The Undead" subclass.
Personally; I say go for it. ; )
as an UA article titled "modifying classes" explained "The warlock spell list was carefully cultivated to avoid including spells that might become annoying if cast too often at the table. If you want to grant a warlock access to a new spell, but are concerned that its frequent casting could be disruptive to the game, consider creating an eldritch invocation that enables the use of the same magic on a more limited basis (by requiring a rest between uses, for instance)." this is why they only let you cast conjure elementals once using a warlock spell slot and why they quite reasonably put the same restriction on the animate dead spell
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
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spell versatillity for bards is really nice, just as nice as it is for any other spellcasting class and they deserve it just as much (in fact they might as well introduce it as an optional mechanic for every class who knows their spells), and while some of the extra bard spells might be a bit redundant or does not really fit, command, cause fear, aid and especially mass healing word are all spells they should have had from the start (why did they get mass cure wounds but not mass healing word in the first place, weird). Also bards are the only people who would ever use tenser's transformation in the first place, not forcing them to use one of their very limited magical secrets to do so is fine. Using magical healing to boost the damage of fireball or to reduce the drawbacks of healing word for your party members? that might be a bit less fine.
but ya know what might be neat? optional reduced spell lists, all these are only available if the DM decides that they are, they are non essential, and so in order to challenge players they might introduce an option that reduces the spell lists of classes to only those spells that are core and vitally important to the class while removing options that are not, for instance optionally removing cure wounds, mass cure wounds, speak with animals and illusory script from the bard list, optionally removing detect magic, cure wounds, fog cloud, alarm, and absorb elements from the ranger list, in other words instead of optional rules that expand, you have optional rules that restrict and focus an class on the bare essentials, would not be popular and might not be fun, just an idea
isint the whole gimmic of illusiory dragon that all damage it deals is psychic damage but the targets all think that the damage is of the appropriate type?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Nope. The illusion actually does whatever damage type you choose, not psychic damage.
yeah went back and checked, turns out i am wrong, must have mixed it up with phantasmal killer / force.
Anyways why would changing your spells on a long rest and origin spells be mutually exclusive? why not give the sorcerer both? Also it be neat if dragon sorcerers get illusory dragon, but i also get why it is not since it is just an really advanced illusion and wizards are meant to be on the cutting edge of spell research, the elemental thing that lets you change damage types also in this UA goes a long way for more options.
Also burning hands is still useful even if you already have fireball since it can be cast more often, but burning hands is also made completely irrelevant by dragon's breath since that is just a burning hands per turn for several turns given to you or a companion, so that is a bad comparison but like low level spells are not completely irrelevant for high level spellcasters
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That was directed at a different topic. Pipino suggested that Sorcerers should either learn a larger number of spells, or have their spell list reworked from the ground up, with each Origin getting an Expanded Spell List of appropriate and effective spells. These things were suggestions instead of the ability to swap out known spells. I was expanding on that solution to say that overall, the entire compendium of all D&D spells, needs some filling out at the top end, because spells overwhelmingly do one of 3 types at higher levels -- Fire, Psychic, Bludgeoning (surprisingly). Acid gives out at 4th level spells, aside from Illusory Dragon. Lightning gives out at 6th level, side from Illusory Dragon. If you restrict to only Sorcerer spells, it gets much worse, because Illusory Dragon is not on the Sorcerer Spell List. And as for the optional Elemental type swapping Metamagic... I have mixed feelings about that. It could be useful and effective, but it's also another engine running off of your limited pool of Sorcery Points. It would be useful for a high level Storm Sorcerer to trigger their zap-on-cast 6th level feature, to account for the slim total number of spells dealing either Thunder or Lightning damage. But I feel like that's more of a band-aid than a solution.
That's actually an interesting point, though, about Draconian Sorcerers and Illusory Dragon. I feel like they should get the spell, but when they cast it the element of Dragon they can summon is limited to the ancestor they chose as part of their Origin. But that would be a rework of the class, not an alternate feature, so it's beyond the scope of 5e.
I'd rather cast something like Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile, though, rather than Burning Hands. Lacking proficiency with Armor or Shields, Sorcerers tend to be squishy. At higher levels, I'd rather not get within 15 feet of a group of things in order to barbecue them. I'd rather do it from a distance. Frankly, every spellcaster who can learn either of those spells should find a way to make at least one of them fit on their spell list, because they are both very useful at clearing low health riff-raff. And they can both be upcast for greater effects that make them both more useful.
yes but here is the thing, i dont see why an expansion to the known spells of an sorcerer should be mutually exclusive to this other feature that is otherwise available to every other spell caster. It does not step on too many toes and does not give the class any more raw power, only a chance to replace bad decisions and slowly adapt to new threats, and in general why even just give higher raw amounts of spells to the sorcerer, when spellcasting flexibillity and knowing many spells is not the thing that derives the fun out of the class. Maybe expanded spell lists like warlock would be cool in many cases (as already mentioned, this is why celestial is the coolest class and many spells could fit), perhaps an minor version of magical secrets at level 20, but why have just larger amounts of known spells?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The point is to make an either/or scenario. Either you get better options to pick from, so there are less wasted options requiring the ability to repick to stay relevant, or you get to pick more options so it doesn't matter if you have some that are only effective at early game because you have more tools at your disposal.
I'm not disagreeing with you that repicking spells per Long Rest is a good solution. I'm saying that other solutions might be better, and might also fit better thematically. This is not a binary discussion where only one or the other is valid with zero in-between.
You get to teleport the talisman within 120 feet of you AND on the next turn can channel spells from the talisman's location. Then bring it back to yourself on the bonus action.
You're getting a portal. All those "positional" spells like Lightning Bolt or Fireball or their ilk are completely viable bombs to drop with your limited spell slots.
It's been seven months and it still looks like this isn't anywhere on Beyond. I asked about it on Twitter pre-pandemic and they said they don't do ETAs. It sucks because while most of the subclasses are cool, this UA was the coolest and most game changing. Is there any word now?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/unearthed-arcana/51023-read-here-before-asking-when-does-the-new-class
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Would it be broken to give a Warlock the animate dead spell? Looking at the UA "The Undead" subclass.
Personally; I say go for it. ; )
this thread was started long before tasha's cauldron of everything was released, much of what this UA described did end up in tasha's, and much of it did not
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
oh, sorry, did not look at any prior posts
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
as an UA article titled "modifying classes" explained "The warlock spell list was carefully cultivated to avoid including spells that might become annoying if cast too often at the table. If you want to grant a warlock access to a new spell, but are concerned that its frequent casting could be disruptive to the game, consider creating an eldritch invocation that enables the use of the same magic on a more limited basis (by requiring a rest between uses, for instance)."
this is why they only let you cast conjure elementals once using a warlock spell slot and why they quite reasonably put the same restriction on the animate dead spell
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes