I would like to see more Fighter Subclasses. The only subclasses that I like are Battlemaster and Cavalier, so having some more options would be nice. Otherwise, Artificers and Paladins are on my list of classes that need some love.
Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
I would like to see more Fighter Subclasses. The only subclasses that I like are Battlemaster and Cavalier, so having some more options would be nice. Otherwise, Artificers and Paladins are on my list of classes that need some love.
Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
I have a personal beef with Samurai because Battlemaster is better at portraying the Samurai to my mind. I do like Psi Warrior, but I often forget about it. I think my problem with all the Fighter Subclasses is that Battlemaster just really good. Hexblade or Bladesinger out shine the Eldritch Knight in everyway. Champion offers nothing as a subclass. Arcane Archer is a worse option as an Magic Archer than most Ranger subclasses. There is nothing about the Rune Knight that I like, which sucks because the concept is cool, but the available Runes are very lack luster in my opinion and getting big doesn't do much.
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
Artificer (4)
Artificer (4?)
Artificer (4!)
Sorcerer (7)
Druid (7, but has more consistently great subs than Sorcerer, lower priority)
Barbarian (less consistently great subs than the others at 8)
Ranger (8)
Bard (8, but frankly they're all sensational, so this could probably be lower, despite me sorting by existing number first)
Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock (9) are all basically equivalent with balance among their subs, the Rogue may have one or two more stinkers than the others.
Monk has 10 subs, but maybe 1 is truly great because WotC's afraid to beef 'em up
Fighter (10) is fine, it's got at least five really standout subs (battle master, echo knight, eldritch knight, rune knight, samurai) with only one real stinker (pdk)
Wizard (13) doesn't need another sub until a brand new edition, or every other class surpasses it they're covered.
Cleric (14) already has too many subs and they're all great. Leave it alone.
I would like to see more Fighter Subclasses. The only subclasses that I like are Battlemaster and Cavalier, so having some more options would be nice. Otherwise, Artificers and Paladins are on my list of classes that need some love.
Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
I have a personal beef with Samurai because Battlemaster is better at portraying the Samurai to my mind. I do like Psi Warrior, but I often forget about it. I think my problem with all the Fighter Subclasses is that Battlemaster just really good. Hexblade or Bladesinger out shine the Eldritch Knight in everyway. Champion offers nothing as a subclass. Arcane Archer is a worse option as an Magic Archer than most Ranger subclasses. There is nothing about the Rune Knight that I like, which sucks because the concept is cool, but the available Runes are very lack luster in my opinion and getting big doesn't do much.
I've never heard anyone say that Samurai or Rune Knight are lackluster, or that Psi warrior is forgettable. And Eldritch Knight? WHAT? Hexblade and Bladesinger may work better as all-around gishes, but that's not what an EK is for. It's a full fighter (twice the number of attacks, come on!) that's augmented by magic, which gives it crazy versatility among Fighters.
And while Champion offers little choice or versatility, for raw damage, it's actually very solid and a great "starter" class for new players. Arcane Archer gets a bad rap mainly because it gets too few shots. The shots themselves are almost uniformly great, and the biggest problem is sorta split between them being too limited and a lot of DMs out there not allowing short rests, which limits them further. Easily fixed by making it INT mod or prof/SR instead of just 2/SR, or maybe double prof/LR for those tables that skip SRs.
I would like to see more Fighter Subclasses. The only subclasses that I like are Battlemaster and Cavalier, so having some more options would be nice. Otherwise, Artificers and Paladins are on my list of classes that need some love.
Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
I have a personal beef with Samurai because Battlemaster is better at portraying the Samurai to my mind. I do like Psi Warrior, but I often forget about it. I think my problem with all the Fighter Subclasses is that Battlemaster just really good. Hexblade or Bladesinger out shine the Eldritch Knight in everyway. Champion offers nothing as a subclass. Arcane Archer is a worse option as an Magic Archer than most Ranger subclasses. There is nothing about the Rune Knight that I like, which sucks because the concept is cool, but the available Runes are very lack luster in my opinion and getting big doesn't do much.
I've never heard anyone say that Samurai or Rune Knight are lackluster, or that Psi warrior is forgettable. And Eldritch Knight? WHAT? Hexblade and Bladesinger may work better as all-around gishes, but that's not what an EK is for. It's a full fighter (twice the number of attacks, come on!) that's augmented by magic, which gives it crazy versatility among Fighters.
And while Champion offers little choice or versatility, for raw damage, it's actually very solid and a great "starter" class for new players. Arcane Archer gets a bad rap mainly because it gets too few shots. The shots themselves are almost uniformly great, and the biggest problem is sorta split between them being too limited and a lot of DMs out there not allowing short rests, which limits them further. Easily fixed by making it INT mod or prof/SR instead of just 2/SR, or maybe double prof/LR for those tables that skip SRs.
I am sorry that you don't like my opinions, but that is ok. As far as the bolded part, this may be true in high level games, but those are very rare so it isn't exactly a selling point. There really isn't much that the EK can do that Hexblade or Bladesinger can't do in the levels that are most commonly played.
I didn't say I "don't like" anything you said, it just feels sort of out of left field for me, since it's so wildly different than the general consensus. Your opinions are unexpected, not bad. There's no reason to be defensive.
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
Artificer (4)
Artificer (4?)
Artificer (4!)
Sorcerer (7)
Druid (7, but has more consistently great subs than Sorcerer, lower priority)
Barbarian (less consistently great subs than the others at 8)
Ranger (8)
Bard (8, but frankly they're all sensational, so this could probably be lower, despite me sorting by existing number first)
Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock (9) are all basically equivalent with balance among their subs, the Rogue may have one or two more stinkers than the others.
Monk has 10 subs, but maybe 1 is truly great because WotC's afraid to beef 'em up
Fighter (10) is fine, it's got at least five really standout subs (battle master, echo knight, eldritch knight, rune knight, samurai) with only one real stinker (pdk)
Wizard (13) doesn't need another sub until a brand new edition, or every other class surpasses it they're covered.
Cleric (14) already has too many subs and they're all great. Leave it alone.
I always forget about Echo Knight too. It is a pretty good subclass because it is very unique. I do like that one.
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
Artificer (4)
Artificer (4?)
Artificer (4!)
Sorcerer (7)
Druid (7, but has more consistently great subs than Sorcerer, lower priority)
Barbarian (less consistently great subs than the others at 8)
Ranger (8)
Bard (8, but frankly they're all sensational, so this could probably be lower, despite me sorting by existing number first)
Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock (9) are all basically equivalent with balance among their subs, the Rogue may have one or two more stinkers than the others.
Monk has 10 subs, but maybe 1 is truly great because WotC's afraid to beef 'em up
Fighter (10) is fine, it's got at least five really standout subs (battle master, echo knight, eldritch knight, rune knight, samurai) with only one real stinker (pdk)
Wizard (13) doesn't need another sub until a brand new edition, or every other class surpasses it they're covered.
Cleric (14) already has too many subs and they're all great. Leave it alone.
Warlock PHB subclasses are pretty lackluster compared to the new ones but otherwise I agree.
Arty needs some love bad.... And sorcerer is hard because you have to overcome the base class and the subclass features of the phb options are much worse than the Tashas ones.
At this point every new sorcerer needs at least 10 extra spells known to keep up and then they keep burying the old subclasses deeper and deeper so I think we won't see many until 2024 but I hope I'm wrong
I would like to see more Fighter Subclasses. The only subclasses that I like are Battlemaster and Cavalier, so having some more options would be nice. Otherwise, Artificers and Paladins are on my list of classes that need some love.
Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
I have a personal beef with Samurai because Battlemaster is better at portraying the Samurai to my mind. I do like Psi Warrior, but I often forget about it. I think my problem with all the Fighter Subclasses is that Battlemaster just really good. Hexblade or Bladesinger out shine the Eldritch Knight in everyway. Champion offers nothing as a subclass. Arcane Archer is a worse option as an Magic Archer than most Ranger subclasses. There is nothing about the Rune Knight that I like, which sucks because the concept is cool, but the available Runes are very lack luster in my opinion and getting big doesn't do much.
I've never heard anyone say that Samurai or Rune Knight are lackluster, or that Psi warrior is forgettable. And Eldritch Knight? WHAT? Hexblade and Bladesinger may work better as all-around gishes, but that's not what an EK is for. It's a full fighter (twice the number of attacks, come on!) that's augmented by magic, which gives it crazy versatility among Fighters.
And while Champion offers little choice or versatility, for raw damage, it's actually very solid and a great "starter" class for new players. Arcane Archer gets a bad rap mainly because it gets too few shots. The shots themselves are almost uniformly great, and the biggest problem is sorta split between them being too limited and a lot of DMs out there not allowing short rests, which limits them further. Easily fixed by making it INT mod or prof/SR instead of just 2/SR, or maybe double prof/LR for those tables that skip SRs.
Samurai is the better "starter" fighter in my opinion...
Champion doesn't teach much about resources management so I think it's actually a bad choice to help someone learn especially if they eventually want to play something with resources.
Samurai is more viable and it's effective.... But good God is its boring
Starting Tier-2 and definitely by Tier-3 Eldritch Knight kinda sucks eggs. The subclass actively competes with the base class for action economy. (No bueno.) Eldritch Knight, Champion, and PDK are all on the cutting room floor IMO. If they had swapped Evocation for Divination then the EK would be solid, but as is… not so much after Tier-1, and not at all after Tier-2.
Goaryn,
I will agree about the Runes being a li’l meh in some aspects, woulda been cooler if they were more significant. I also think it should have kept the +1d4 on every attack from the UA and not scaled the damage, simply let it scale naturally with the number of attacks. I get why they did it the way they did, it’s more like what a videogamer would expect, but I would have preferred it differently. But it’s still a solid choice (even if it should really have been a Barbarian subclass). It’s biggest problem is the same one that plagues the Samurai and many other aspects of 5e, the flavor text is disconnected from the mechanics. Like the Runic Shield that gets complained about. It would have been better received if instead it read like this:
Runes of Fate
7th-level Rune Knight feature
You learn to invoke your rune magic in an attempt to manipulate the outcome of an attack. When another creature you can see within 60 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force the attacker to reroll the d20 and use the new roll.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It’s👆simultaneously both mechanically identical, yet vastly improved.
If I did the same thing to the Samurai and called it something that speaks explicitly towards the focus on self mastery, like “Zen Warrior,” or perhaps “Zen Noble” or “Noble Combatant” (which is likely why they went with Samurai) or something better if I didn’t suck at naming things you pro’ly wouldn’t dismiss it as much. Mechanically speaking it’s a great subclass both in and outside of combat.
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
Artificer (4)
Artificer (4?)
Artificer (4!)
Sorcerer (7)
Druid (7, but has more consistently great subs than Sorcerer, lower priority)
Barbarian (less consistently great subs than the others at 8)
Ranger (8)
Bard (8, but frankly they're all sensational, so this could probably be lower, despite me sorting by existing number first)
Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock (9) are all basically equivalent with balance among their subs, the Rogue may have one or two more stinkers than the others.
Monk has 10 subs, but maybe 1 is truly great because WotC's afraid to beef 'em up
Fighter (10) is fine, it's got at least five really standout subs (battle master, echo knight, eldritch knight, rune knight, samurai) with only one real stinker (pdk)
Wizard (13) doesn't need another sub until a brand new edition, or every other class surpasses it they're covered.
Cleric (14) already has too many subs and they're all great. Leave it alone.
Warlock PHB subclasses are pretty lackluster compared to the new ones but otherwise I agree.
Arty needs some love bad.... And sorcerer is hard because you have to overcome the base class and the subclass features of the phb options are much worse than the Tashas ones.
At this point every new sorcerer needs at least 10 extra spells known to keep up and then they keep burying the old subclasses deeper and deeper so I think we won't see many until 2024 but I hope I'm wrong
Guarantee we'll see updates to those less-than-optimal sorc subs with the PHB/DMG/MM updates in 2024, though.
Starting Tier-2 and definitely by Tier-3 Eldritch Knight kinda sucks eggs. The subclass actively competes with the base class for action economy. (No bueno.) Eldritch Knight, Champion, and PDK are all on the cutting room floor IMO. If they had swapped Evocation for Divination then the EK would be solid, but as is… not so much after Tier-1, and not at all after Tier-2.
Goaryn,
I will agree about the Runes being a li’l meh in some aspects, woulda been cooler if they were more significant. I also think it should have kept the +1d4 on every attack from the UA and not scaled the damage, simply let it scale naturally with the number of attacks. I get why they did it the way they did, it’s more like what a videogamer would expect, but I would have preferred it differently. But it’s still a solid choice (even if it should really have been a Barbarian subclass). It’s biggest problem is the same one that plagues the Samurai and many other aspects of 5e, the flavor text is disconnected from the mechanics. Like the Runic Shield that gets complained about. It would have been better received if instead it read like this:
Runes of Fate
7th-level Rune Knight feature
You learn to invoke your rune magic in an attempt to manipulate the outcome of an attack. When another creature you can see within 60 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force the attacker to reroll the d20 and use the new roll.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It’s👆simultaneously both mechanically identical, yet vastly improved.
If I did the same thing to the Samurai and called it something that speaks explicitly towards the focus on self mastery, like “Zen Warrior,” or perhaps “Zen Noble” or “Noble Combatant” (which is likely why they went with Samurai) or something better if I didn’t suck at naming things you pro’ly wouldn’t dismiss it as much. Mechanically speaking it’s a great subclass both in and outside of combat.
You are correct that calling it a Samurai at all is a problem for me. I imagine that if the subclass were called something else, I might rank it differently, but I have to agree with OptimusGrimus that the mechanics are a bit boring. But I also agree with you that it is less boring than Champion, but only by the slimmest of margins.
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
Artificer (4)
Artificer (4?)
Artificer (4!)
Sorcerer (7)
Druid (7, but has more consistently great subs than Sorcerer, lower priority)
Barbarian (less consistently great subs than the others at 8)
Ranger (8)
Bard (8, but frankly they're all sensational, so this could probably be lower, despite me sorting by existing number first)
Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock (9) are all basically equivalent with balance among their subs, the Rogue may have one or two more stinkers than the others.
Monk has 10 subs, but maybe 1 is truly great because WotC's afraid to beef 'em up
Fighter (10) is fine, it's got at least five really standout subs (battle master, echo knight, eldritch knight, rune knight, samurai) with only one real stinker (pdk)
Wizard (13) doesn't need another sub until a brand new edition, or every other class surpasses it they're covered.
Cleric (14) already has too many subs and they're all great. Leave it alone.
Warlock PHB subclasses are pretty lackluster compared to the new ones but otherwise I agree.
Arty needs some love bad.... And sorcerer is hard because you have to overcome the base class and the subclass features of the phb options are much worse than the Tashas ones.
At this point every new sorcerer needs at least 10 extra spells known to keep up and then they keep burying the old subclasses deeper and deeper so I think we won't see many until 2024 but I hope I'm wrong
Guarantee we'll see updates to those less-than-optimal sorc subs with the PHB/DMG/MM updates in 2024, though.
Full agree on that one...thats why I am uncertain if they will do sorcerer subclasses or not in upcoming UA....to me its like 60/40 they wont/will.
I'm . . . torn about the Sorcerer. I love the idea of someone that's born with their magic, and I also love the idea of a Warlock, someone that makes a deal with an otherworldly entity to get their magic, but I currently think there's a bit too much overlap between the two. They both are basically full casters, cast from Charisma, and have very similar subclasses (Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul Sorcerer, Undead Warlock and Shadow Sorcerer, etc). There's also a lot of overlap between Planetouched and Sorcerers (from one point of view, wouldn't it make sense for all Genasi, Aasimar, Hexblood, and Tieflings to automatically be Sorcerers?). In my opinion, a Sorcerer's subclass should be based on what source of magic they have (like it currently is), with higher level subclass features making them more and more like whatever creature/magical entity caused them to get magic (Dragons for Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers, Shadows for Shadow Sorcerers, Celestials for Divine Soul Sorcerers, etc).
But there's also a ton of Warlock subclasses that do basically the same thing, making the Warlock become more and more like their patron as they grow in levels. Genie Warlocks basically become mini-genies, which is something that I would have assumed would be more like a Sorcerer Genie Subclass. Undead Warlocks get more and more undead-like as they grow in powers, which, again, is fairly similar to what most Sorcerer subclasses could/should do. Great Old One Warlocks become more and more alien (like pseudo-Mind Flayers/Aboleths), which makes sense thematically, but again has a lot of overlap with Sorcerers.
Maybe it would be better if the "Warlock" class held both the theme of "I was born with powers/changed by magic to have spellcasting", as well as "my powers were granted by an outsider", and the Sorcerer was more like the Arcane Gish class that it was during the D&D Next Playtest? Possibly making them Constitution-based spellcasters, too? That would make them more mechanically and thematically distinct.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You are correct that calling it a Samurai at all is a problem for me. I imagine that if the subclass were called something else, I might rank it differently, but I have to agree with OptimusGrimus that the mechanics are a bit boring. But I also agree with you that it is less boring than Champion, but only by the slimmest of margins.
“Slimmest of margins,” really?
Between 1) the Proficiency and 2) Courtier, at both of the first two levels of the subclass it grants features that are actually useful outside of combat. Champ never does.
The Samurai 2 : 0 Da Champ
Fighting Spirit grants an additional Resource to manage with the following points of note:
It refreshes on a different condition than Second Wind/Action Surge/Indomitable. +1
Includes not 1 but 2 benefits which can be considered either individually or together when deciding how to best manage the resource. +2
Has a different scaling system for each 1) the number of uses (Tireless Spirit) and 2) one of the benefits (the TPH), and they both scale differently than SW/Indomitable. +2
Can be used either 1) in conjunction with Action Surge, or 2) independently. +2
Da Champ offers an additional Fighting Style.
The Samurai 9 : 1 Da Champ
Rapid Strike gives yet another choice to make between a more likely hit or another attack. (Admittedly the additional attack is almost always better statistically, but it’s still a decision to make.)
The Samurai 10 : 1 Da Champ
Strength before Death gives you a chance to feel epic. Da Champ? Nope.
The Samurai 11 : 1 Da Champ
An 11 : 1 victory doesn’t seem like a “slim margin” at all, that’s a heck of a blowout in Baseball (or three blowouts all in one for Hockey). 😉
Now, it’s no Battle Master (what is?), but it seems like it’s got almost as much going for it as the Cavalier, just with less breadth of scope. I’d say the PDK beats Da Champ by a “slim margin,” but the Samurai even blows that away 11 : 5 at the least. (I’d say the Arcane Archer falls halfway between the PDK and the Samurai.)
What do you mean they haven't published the last Eberron book? Was there something that came out after Rising from the Last War? If you're referring to Exploring Eberron, that was published by Keith Baker without input from WotC and is not considered canon.
As for Warforged, I've heard some people suggest that they might be in the updated PHB, which does kind of make sense. Even if you've never engaged with the Eberron setting in any way, you know what a Warforged is.
Yes, Keith Baker the creator of the setting. And why would you listen to rumours about a book that's two years in the distance?
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Really? I think Samurai and Rune Knight are pretty solid choices too. And while I hate it for personal reasons, I gotta admit that mechanically, the Psi Warrior doesn’t suck from an objective standpoint. Heck, if they had simply given them a telekinetic power as a capstone without using the spell telekinesis, I wouldn’t hate it at all to be honest. What would you want in a fighter subclass?
Artificer is my favorite class this edition, but they do need a few more subclasses for variety.
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I have a personal beef with Samurai because Battlemaster is better at portraying the Samurai to my mind. I do like Psi Warrior, but I often forget about it. I think my problem with all the Fighter Subclasses is that Battlemaster just really good. Hexblade or Bladesinger out shine the Eldritch Knight in everyway. Champion offers nothing as a subclass. Arcane Archer is a worse option as an Magic Archer than most Ranger subclasses. There is nothing about the Rune Knight that I like, which sucks because the concept is cool, but the available Runes are very lack luster in my opinion and getting big doesn't do much.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If you wanna get analytical about it, the three classes that need the most love are Artificer (4 subclasses), Druid (7 subs), and Sorcerer (7 subs). Every other class has 8 or more, and those three are the ones lagging behind. Cleric, Fighter, Monk, and Wizard are all fine with 10+ each (Cleric and Wizard have the most in the game, at 14 and 13 respectively). Class average is 8.9 subs, with most other classes sitting around there. Paladin, Rogue, and Warlock all have 9 at the higher end, then Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are at the lower end. I'd say priorities for new subs rank as follows:
I've never heard anyone say that Samurai or Rune Knight are lackluster, or that Psi warrior is forgettable. And Eldritch Knight? WHAT? Hexblade and Bladesinger may work better as all-around gishes, but that's not what an EK is for. It's a full fighter (twice the number of attacks, come on!) that's augmented by magic, which gives it crazy versatility among Fighters.
And while Champion offers little choice or versatility, for raw damage, it's actually very solid and a great "starter" class for new players. Arcane Archer gets a bad rap mainly because it gets too few shots. The shots themselves are almost uniformly great, and the biggest problem is sorta split between them being too limited and a lot of DMs out there not allowing short rests, which limits them further. Easily fixed by making it INT mod or prof/SR instead of just 2/SR, or maybe double prof/LR for those tables that skip SRs.
I am sorry that you don't like my opinions, but that is ok. As far as the bolded part, this may be true in high level games, but those are very rare so it isn't exactly a selling point. There really isn't much that the EK can do that Hexblade or Bladesinger can't do in the levels that are most commonly played.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I didn't say I "don't like" anything you said, it just feels sort of out of left field for me, since it's so wildly different than the general consensus. Your opinions are unexpected, not bad. There's no reason to be defensive.
I always forget about Echo Knight too. It is a pretty good subclass because it is very unique. I do like that one.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Warlock PHB subclasses are pretty lackluster compared to the new ones but otherwise I agree.
Arty needs some love bad.... And sorcerer is hard because you have to overcome the base class and the subclass features of the phb options are much worse than the Tashas ones.
At this point every new sorcerer needs at least 10 extra spells known to keep up and then they keep burying the old subclasses deeper and deeper so I think we won't see many until 2024 but I hope I'm wrong
Samurai is the better "starter" fighter in my opinion...
Champion doesn't teach much about resources management so I think it's actually a bad choice to help someone learn especially if they eventually want to play something with resources.
Samurai is more viable and it's effective.... But good God is its boring
Avenger,
Starting Tier-2 and definitely by Tier-3 Eldritch Knight kinda sucks eggs. The subclass actively competes with the base class for action economy. (No bueno.) Eldritch Knight, Champion, and PDK are all on the cutting room floor IMO. If they had swapped Evocation for Divination then the EK would be solid, but as is… not so much after Tier-1, and not at all after Tier-2.
Goaryn,
I will agree about the Runes being a li’l meh in some aspects, woulda been cooler if they were more significant. I also think it should have kept the +1d4 on every attack from the UA and not scaled the damage, simply let it scale naturally with the number of attacks. I get why they did it the way they did, it’s more like what a videogamer would expect, but I would have preferred it differently. But it’s still a solid choice (even if it should really have been a Barbarian subclass). It’s biggest problem is the same one that plagues the Samurai and many other aspects of 5e, the flavor text is disconnected from the mechanics. Like the Runic Shield that gets complained about. It would have been better received if instead it read like this:
Runes of Fate
7th-level Rune Knight feature
You learn to invoke your rune magic in an attempt to manipulate the outcome of an attack. When another creature you can see within 60 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force the attacker to reroll the d20 and use the new roll.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It’s👆simultaneously both mechanically identical, yet vastly improved.
If I did the same thing to the Samurai and called it something that speaks explicitly towards the focus on self mastery, like “Zen Warrior,” or perhaps “Zen Noble” or “Noble Combatant” (which is likely why they went with Samurai) or something better if I didn’t suck at naming things you pro’ly wouldn’t dismiss it as much. Mechanically speaking it’s a great subclass both in and outside of combat.
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Guarantee we'll see updates to those less-than-optimal sorc subs with the PHB/DMG/MM updates in 2024, though.
Waaayy less boring than Da Champ.
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You are correct that calling it a Samurai at all is a problem for me. I imagine that if the subclass were called something else, I might rank it differently, but I have to agree with OptimusGrimus that the mechanics are a bit boring. But I also agree with you that it is less boring than Champion, but only by the slimmest of margins.
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I am hopeful that we will see some significant improvements to the Sorcerer as a whole in 2024.
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Gosh I'd hope so. Easily my least favorite class.
Both are very boring but only one is effective.....and it ain't the Champ
Full agree on that one...thats why I am uncertain if they will do sorcerer subclasses or not in upcoming UA....to me its like 60/40 they wont/will.
I'm . . . torn about the Sorcerer. I love the idea of someone that's born with their magic, and I also love the idea of a Warlock, someone that makes a deal with an otherworldly entity to get their magic, but I currently think there's a bit too much overlap between the two. They both are basically full casters, cast from Charisma, and have very similar subclasses (Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul Sorcerer, Undead Warlock and Shadow Sorcerer, etc). There's also a lot of overlap between Planetouched and Sorcerers (from one point of view, wouldn't it make sense for all Genasi, Aasimar, Hexblood, and Tieflings to automatically be Sorcerers?). In my opinion, a Sorcerer's subclass should be based on what source of magic they have (like it currently is), with higher level subclass features making them more and more like whatever creature/magical entity caused them to get magic (Dragons for Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers, Shadows for Shadow Sorcerers, Celestials for Divine Soul Sorcerers, etc).
But there's also a ton of Warlock subclasses that do basically the same thing, making the Warlock become more and more like their patron as they grow in levels. Genie Warlocks basically become mini-genies, which is something that I would have assumed would be more like a Sorcerer Genie Subclass. Undead Warlocks get more and more undead-like as they grow in powers, which, again, is fairly similar to what most Sorcerer subclasses could/should do. Great Old One Warlocks become more and more alien (like pseudo-Mind Flayers/Aboleths), which makes sense thematically, but again has a lot of overlap with Sorcerers.
Maybe it would be better if the "Warlock" class held both the theme of "I was born with powers/changed by magic to have spellcasting", as well as "my powers were granted by an outsider", and the Sorcerer was more like the Arcane Gish class that it was during the D&D Next Playtest? Possibly making them Constitution-based spellcasters, too? That would make them more mechanically and thematically distinct.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
“Slimmest of margins,” really?
Between 1) the Proficiency and 2) Courtier, at both of the first two levels of the subclass it grants features that are actually useful outside of combat. Champ never does.
The Samurai 2 : 0 Da Champ
Fighting Spirit grants an additional Resource to manage with the following points of note:
Da Champ offers an additional Fighting Style.
The Samurai 9 : 1 Da Champ
Rapid Strike gives yet another choice to make between a more likely hit or another attack. (Admittedly the additional attack is almost always better statistically, but it’s still a decision to make.)
The Samurai 10 : 1 Da Champ
Strength before Death gives you a chance to feel epic. Da Champ? Nope.
The Samurai 11 : 1 Da Champ
An 11 : 1 victory doesn’t seem like a “slim margin” at all, that’s a heck of a blowout in Baseball (or three blowouts all in one for Hockey). 😉
Now, it’s no Battle Master (what is?), but it seems like it’s got almost as much going for it as the Cavalier, just with less breadth of scope. I’d say the PDK beats Da Champ by a “slim margin,” but the Samurai even blows that away 11 : 5 at the least. (I’d say the Arcane Archer falls halfway between the PDK and the Samurai.)
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Yes, Keith Baker the creator of the setting. And why would you listen to rumours about a book that's two years in the distance?