The point is that individual people can know what they want, but the ravening hoard that is “people” have no idea what it wants. It’s the “Consult the Necrosages Masses” mentality that is the issue. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak.
I'm one of the people who filled in the questionnaire on the psi UA. The way the questions where my answers will be interpreted as that I don't want a psy specific mechanic. And that's as far away from what I want as possible. I don't want the die system on top of an already existing class and where you need to take special feats to flesh out your character even further. I want all of that incorporated in one class not as a graft on top of a number of different other classes. The way it is now is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster approach. Nothing really fits and it's jarring.
I'm one of the people who filled in the questionnaire on the psi UA. The way the questions where my answers will be interpreted as that I don't want a psy specific mechanic. And that's as far away from what I want as possible. I don't want the die system on top of an already existing class and where you need to take special feats to flesh out your character even further. I want all of that incorporated in one class not as a graft on top of a number of different other classes. The way it is now is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster approach. Nothing really fits and it's jarring.
I agree wholeheartedly. That’s the best argument for not just using subclasses I have seen.
PS- You can write in an essay format answer on the surveys. In future, you might use that to make sure that your feedback to WotC is exactly as clear and specific as this was. Because this was excellent.
Prestige classes might well be an avenue for them to give the folks craving depth a way to get that depth without inconveniencing all the folks who hate having to think when they play D&D.
EDIT: Stupid net delays.
But yes.
Positron: why is it that it's perfectly okay for Wizards to just completely flat-out ignore what even their Head Designer Dude described as "a sizable minority"? I get that you, specifically, are thrilled and happy that they're eliminating depth at every possible turn to comply with the vanilla-pudding Majority, but man. Is there not any concern in your mind whatsoever for what happens when that 'sizable minority' finally gets fed up enough to jump ship?
In a way I am agreeing with some of the ideas... to put my position clearly, I actually want you guys to receive the complexity you desire, but class and subclass design should be inclusive to most players. Complexity can be added in 5e (and revisiting prestige classes or additional optional systems that are campaign specific are great ideas) but Psion class design probably doesn’t need it baked into its core. I also don’t want to make it sound like I refuse any mechanic outright, things like Warlock spell casting and invocations are acceptable versions of a magic system. They are different versions that work within the system. The problem comes when players have to learn new systems, or have conversion charts, or have entirely new sets of “manifestations” That require work to learn.
Psion class design probably doesn’t need it baked into its core. I also don’t want to make it sound like I refuse any mechanic outright, things like Warlock spell casting and invocations are acceptable versions of a magic system. They are different versions that work within the system. The problem comes when players have to learn new systems, or have conversion charts, or have entirely new sets of “manifestations” That require work to learn.
That was why I loved the Psi Die. It was so simple, even an insurance hawking caveperson could do it.
I think as far as introducing more complexity into class builds are concerned, maybe they should take another crack at Prestige Classes.
I would love that.
while prestige classes were a neat system, i am not really shure they really fit 5e, subclasses fill the role that prestige classes do for the most part, the only thing i might see prestige classes doing diffrent is allowing you to gain features fitting a certain archetype every level instead of every four levels or so, while also being a thing that is not wide enough to be a entire class, or things that might specifically require multiclassing
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think as far as introducing more complexity into class builds are concerned, maybe they should take another crack at Prestige Classes.
I would love that.
while prestige classes were a neat system, i am not really shure they really fit 5e, subclasses fill the role that prestige classes do for the most part, the only thing i might see prestige classes doing diffrent is allowing you to gain features fitting a certain archetype every level instead of every four levels or so, while also being a thing that is not wide enough to be a entire class, or things that might specifically require multiclassing
They would allow you to add to your character a level progression that can't be its own class, and provides a way to customize your character beyond the one subclass you're pigeonholed into without awkward multiclassing. You say you're not sure they fit 5e, but then go on to explain the niche they'd have in 5e.
I think as far as introducing more complexity into class builds are concerned, maybe they should take another crack at Prestige Classes.
I would love that.
while prestige classes were a neat system, i am not really shure they really fit 5e, subclasses fill the role that prestige classes do for the most part, the only thing i might see prestige classes doing diffrent is allowing you to gain features fitting a certain archetype every level instead of every four levels or so, while also being a thing that is not wide enough to be a entire class, or things that might specifically require multiclassing
They would allow you to add to your character a level progression that can't be its own class, and provides a way to customize your character beyond the one subclass you're pigeonholed into without awkward multiclassing. You say you're not sure they fit 5e, but then go on to explain the niche they'd have in 5e.
kind of slightly changed my mind in the middle of the sentence....
but speaking of discarded 3.5e mechanics, what do you guys think of level adjustments / racial hit dice / racial classes? like on the one hand it would allow people to play objectively stronger races without it completely wrecking the balance but at the same time it might suck for people who want to play an race with an level adjustment that is very melee focused like an minotaur but also wants to play an spellcaster but will thus be several levels behind on their spellcasting, or something might happen the opposite direction
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That was pretty much the whole problem with level adjustments. Yeah you could be a mind flayer with a 10 level adjustment but you just lose out on so much else.
The other route to take is making a creature class that you can then choose to level up to pick up more of the creature traits, or level up their wizard. That kinda circles back to making a dumbed down version as a base race with optional feats to pick up racial abilities that were trimmed to make it balanced at first level.
Bit of a catch 22.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The only real issue I could see with this Psionic UA is that the closest way to be a full time psychic is to be a Sorcerer who will still be mainly doing Sorcerer stuff. And I like the Psionic Soul. I've read the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife from 3.5, and this UA is basically those things, but good. If I weren't currently playing a Ranger, my primary backup might even be a Psi Knight. I was even looking forward to them doing a psychic Monk (for Githzerai players), before I saw the announcement that some people thought the Psi Die was too confusing.
If you’re at all interested in playing a Psi Knight (and they’re fun, I highly recommend one), then make one now to sit on it until you’re ready because there is no telling when the next iteration will come out and that UA will get archived.
Prestige classes might well be an avenue for them to give the folks craving depth a way to get that depth without inconveniencing all the folks who hate having to think when they play D&D.
EDIT: Stupid net delays.
But yes.
Positron: why is it that it's perfectly okay for Wizards to just completely flat-out ignore what even their Head Designer Dude described as "a sizable minority"? I get that you, specifically, are thrilled and happy that they're eliminating depth at every possible turn to comply with the vanilla-pudding Majority, but man. Is there not any concern in your mind whatsoever for what happens when that 'sizable minority' finally gets fed up enough to jump ship?
In a way I am agreeing with some of the ideas... to put my position clearly, I actually want you guys to receive the complexity you desire, but class and subclass design should be inclusive to most players. Complexity can be added in 5e (and revisiting prestige classes or additional optional systems that are campaign specific are great ideas) but Psion class design probably doesn’t need it baked into its core. I also don’t want to make it sound like I refuse any mechanic outright, things like Warlock spell casting and invocations are acceptable versions of a magic system. They are different versions that work within the system. The problem comes when players have to learn new systems, or have conversion charts, or have entirely new sets of “manifestations” That require work to learn.
So, you want us to get what we want, as long as it isn't what we want? I agree with one point there, the subclasses for the base classes that are psionic (soul knife, etc) should be inclusive to new players and "simple" to understand.
What I don't agree with is that a class has to be inclusive to players. If you guys want psionics, fine. Take your dumbed down, simple, boring psionic subclasses. You guys were the ones that didn't want a class anyway. So, if they make a class for the "sizable minority" that wants it, and they want it to have new mechanics, and a new layer of complexity, how in the Nine Hells is that effecting you in any way?
What I truly disagree with about this statement is one thing "a psion class doesn't need complexity baked into its core". The reason I disagree with this is because spellcasters are complex at their core. Anyone knows that if you're starting to play D&D, you should start with a fighter, monk, rogue, or barbarian. If you want simplicity in your game, play a martial character. If you want an easy gameplay that makes your turns take 12 seconds in real life, play a martial character. If you want complexity, and to make your turns take 5 minutes each as every enemy on the battlefield has to roll a saving throw or take damage, be a spellcaster. (I recommend Moon Druids if you really want to annoy the people at your table)
A psion will likely be at least as complex as a spellcaster. I personally don't think it should be complex for the sake of it being complex, but I do think it should be at least as difficult to play as a spellcaster. If it is more complex than this, great. This'll make Yurei happier, as well as many other people I know.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Between my group being down because of Covid and me not wanting to play two frontliners in a row, by the time I'd get around to the Psi Knight, it would be officially discarded by Wizards and Xanathar 2.0 would be out. My group is somewhat open to UA, but if it gets tossed out, they might not want to bother. Ah well. Even if this mechanic is discarded, it sounds like there was some interest in the Psi Knight/Psychic Warrior, so I'm sure it'll exist in some form.
Yeah, if it roughly matches the complexity of Spellcasting I see that as no problem. Simpler might be nice too (I did like that Psi Die) but matching the complexity level of existing class features should be acceptable by everyone. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s any more “complex” except one is already familiar with Spellcasting so it just seems “simpler” in hindsight.
Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
I still don't get the issues Yurei has with spellcasters that aren't the Warlock personally. Yeah, the Warlock is the most customizable of the spellcasting classes, but I'd feel like I'm being hyperbolic if I equated the Wizard or the Cleric with a Champion.
I still don't get the issues Yurei has with spellcasters that aren't the Warlock personally. Yeah, the Warlock is the most customizable of the spellcasting classes, but I'd feel like I'm being hyperbolic if I equated the Wizard or the Cleric with a Champion.
Oh, Yurei talks that way about most classes, not just the spellcaster. Because once you pick a Subclass, there are no real choices. And I agree with them on that score. And Wizard subclasses are so generic from one another for the most part except for the 2 that are OP. It’s the boredom they object to.
Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored and overbuffed to hell and back to try and get people to realize otherwise. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
This is actually an excellent argument for the superiority of the warlock over the other spellcasting "classes."
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Positron,
The point is that individual people can know what they want, but the ravening hoard that is “people” have no idea what it wants. It’s the “Consult the
NecrosagesMasses” mentality that is the issue. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak.Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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I'm one of the people who filled in the questionnaire on the psi UA. The way the questions where my answers will be interpreted as that I don't want a psy specific mechanic. And that's as far away from what I want as possible. I don't want the die system on top of an already existing class and where you need to take special feats to flesh out your character even further. I want all of that incorporated in one class not as a graft on top of a number of different other classes. The way it is now is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster approach. Nothing really fits and it's jarring.
I agree wholeheartedly. That’s the best argument for not just using subclasses I have seen.
PS- You can write in an essay format answer on the surveys. In future, you might use that to make sure that your feedback to WotC is exactly as clear and specific as this was. Because this was excellent.
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In a way I am agreeing with some of the ideas... to put my position clearly, I actually want you guys to receive the complexity you desire, but class and subclass design should be inclusive to most players. Complexity can be added in 5e (and revisiting prestige classes or additional optional systems that are campaign specific are great ideas) but Psion class design probably doesn’t need it baked into its core. I also don’t want to make it sound like I refuse any mechanic outright, things like Warlock spell casting and invocations are acceptable versions of a magic system. They are different versions that work within the system. The problem comes when players have to learn new systems, or have conversion charts, or have entirely new sets of “manifestations” That require work to learn.
That was why I loved the Psi Die. It was so simple, even an insurance hawking caveperson could do it.
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while prestige classes were a neat system, i am not really shure they really fit 5e, subclasses fill the role that prestige classes do for the most part, the only thing i might see prestige classes doing diffrent is allowing you to gain features fitting a certain archetype every level instead of every four levels or so, while also being a thing that is not wide enough to be a entire class, or things that might specifically require multiclassing
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
They would allow you to add to your character a level progression that can't be its own class, and provides a way to customize your character beyond the one subclass you're pigeonholed into without awkward multiclassing. You say you're not sure they fit 5e, but then go on to explain the niche they'd have in 5e.
kind of slightly changed my mind in the middle of the sentence....
but speaking of discarded 3.5e mechanics, what do you guys think of level adjustments / racial hit dice / racial classes? like on the one hand it would allow people to play objectively stronger races without it completely wrecking the balance but at the same time it might suck for people who want to play an race with an level adjustment that is very melee focused like an minotaur but also wants to play an spellcaster but will thus be several levels behind on their spellcasting, or something might happen the opposite direction
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That was pretty much the whole problem with level adjustments. Yeah you could be a mind flayer with a 10 level adjustment but you just lose out on so much else.
The other route to take is making a creature class that you can then choose to level up to pick up more of the creature traits, or level up their wizard. That kinda circles back to making a dumbed down version as a base race with optional feats to pick up racial abilities that were trimmed to make it balanced at first level.
Bit of a catch 22.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The only real issue I could see with this Psionic UA is that the closest way to be a full time psychic is to be a Sorcerer who will still be mainly doing Sorcerer stuff. And I like the Psionic Soul. I've read the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife from 3.5, and this UA is basically those things, but good. If I weren't currently playing a Ranger, my primary backup might even be a Psi Knight. I was even looking forward to them doing a psychic Monk (for Githzerai players), before I saw the announcement that some people thought the Psi Die was too confusing.
If you’re at all interested in playing a Psi Knight (and they’re fun, I highly recommend one), then make one now to sit on it until you’re ready because there is no telling when the next iteration will come out and that UA will get archived.
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So, you want us to get what we want, as long as it isn't what we want? I agree with one point there, the subclasses for the base classes that are psionic (soul knife, etc) should be inclusive to new players and "simple" to understand.
What I don't agree with is that a class has to be inclusive to players. If you guys want psionics, fine. Take your dumbed down, simple, boring psionic subclasses. You guys were the ones that didn't want a class anyway. So, if they make a class for the "sizable minority" that wants it, and they want it to have new mechanics, and a new layer of complexity, how in the Nine Hells is that effecting you in any way?
What I truly disagree with about this statement is one thing "a psion class doesn't need complexity baked into its core". The reason I disagree with this is because spellcasters are complex at their core. Anyone knows that if you're starting to play D&D, you should start with a fighter, monk, rogue, or barbarian. If you want simplicity in your game, play a martial character. If you want an easy gameplay that makes your turns take 12 seconds in real life, play a martial character. If you want complexity, and to make your turns take 5 minutes each as every enemy on the battlefield has to roll a saving throw or take damage, be a spellcaster. (I recommend Moon Druids if you really want to annoy the people at your table)
A psion will likely be at least as complex as a spellcaster. I personally don't think it should be complex for the sake of it being complex, but I do think it should be at least as difficult to play as a spellcaster. If it is more complex than this, great. This'll make Yurei happier, as well as many other people I know.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Between my group being down because of Covid and me not wanting to play two frontliners in a row, by the time I'd get around to the Psi Knight, it would be officially discarded by Wizards and Xanathar 2.0 would be out. My group is somewhat open to UA, but if it gets tossed out, they might not want to bother. Ah well. Even if this mechanic is discarded, it sounds like there was some interest in the Psi Knight/Psychic Warrior, so I'm sure it'll exist in some form.
Yeah, if it roughly matches the complexity of Spellcasting I see that as no problem. Simpler might be nice too (I did like that Psi Die) but matching the complexity level of existing class features should be acceptable by everyone. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s any more “complex” except one is already familiar with Spellcasting so it just seems “simpler” in hindsight.
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Nobody likes being told that the new thing isn't really for them. It's why the longtime D&D adherents got snarky when the Wildemount book came out, it's why Faerun diehards got pissy when Eberron hit - twice, if one counts the Wayfinder's Guide for whatever reason - and it's why people get upset whenever a new adventure book hits that doesn't appeal to their specific interests. People everywhere tend to get uppity when they hear "it's someone else's turn now", especially for things they consider to be as important as a new base class.
The folks who want psionic characters, but who want those characters to be as straightforward and mind-numbingly, soul-stultifyingly simple to play as a Champion fighter don't want to hear "this class isn't really for you. it's for the people that want to bite deep into the crunch. We've got a cool set of subclasses coming for you guys, but this new base class is for the depth-seekers." They hear that and think they're being talked down to and that there's no reason the base class shouldn't be any more complicated than the hit-it-with-a-stick-a-bunch fighty things they've been playing for years now. That complexity is Bad, and 5e promised never to have any of it so they shouldn't have to deal with it.
You get less of that on forums like this because the people who gravitate to places like this, as opposed to the Twitters and the Reddits and such, are the people who, by their nature, tend to crave deeper engagement with the subject of their fascination. Forums are for people who have more to say than one lousy 144-character Twitter post, or one lousy 146-character Reddit post, can manage. So they end up an echo chamber of sorts...but they also prove that folks like Levi, Sposta, and myself are there. And in greater numbers, if I may borrow a phrase from a classic archetypical Mystic for a moment. The people folks like Positron are championing have relatively few voices on forums, because this is where the folks on the other end of the spectrum tend to live.
So I understand where folks like Positron are coming from. If only intellectually, because in my gut where feelings happen I hate those people on an almost violent level for constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY ruining cool things for me. Nevertheless...Positron. Please do try to understand, in turn, that much like the CR folks, or the Eberron folks, or even the M:tG crossover folks - all seven of them - us folks who need more in our games than "I roll 17 to hit? Cool. I roll 12 slashing damage. Next turn" need our turn. We need it, or we will not stay here. And you will discover, once all the folks who crave depth have left 5e, that the game will be the poorer for it no matter what you think of us.
I would be content with psionic subclasses being stripped-down, basic, and oversimplified to the point of pointlessness...if I knew that something better was in the pipeline for those of us who would otherwise give up in disgust at psionics being no better than the Champion Goddamned Fighter. Psionic characters are supposed to be mental giants, warriors of uncommon wisdom, intellect, and discipline. They are, in the game world itself, the folk too smart and/or talented to get by on "if hitting it with a stick doesn't work, I FIND A BIGGER STICK". That intelligence needs to come through somewhere, somehow, or the game designers will have failed the very kernel of the entire Psychic/Psion/Mystic archetype.
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I still don't get the issues Yurei has with spellcasters that aren't the Warlock personally. Yeah, the Warlock is the most customizable of the spellcasting classes, but I'd feel like I'm being hyperbolic if I equated the Wizard or the Cleric with a Champion.
Oh, Yurei talks that way about most classes, not just the spellcaster. Because once you pick a Subclass, there are no real choices. And I agree with them on that score. And Wizard subclasses are so generic from one another for the most part except for the 2 that are OP. It’s the boredom they object to.
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At the end of the day, there is a way to design the Psion that everyone will enjoy. I said it earlier, it’s easier to design a Psion that all players can enjoy at its base, and provide additional options as a layer on top for those that want more depth... the Psion is more likely to get implemented if all players want it than few, so what is the harm in that?
Spellcasters are not complex, nor do they make any choices beyond their subclass option at level 3. Or 2, or 1, depending on the caster. Spells are complex, at least for those with less than a month or so into the game. Depth with spellcaster classes only really comes from Law of Ueki-ing them and trying to find inventive ways of twisting RAW into knots and making your DM hate you.
Wizards? They're not a character class. Not really. They're the spellcasting engine bolted onto the barest skeleton of a character, with just about flat absobuttly nada else going on.
Sorcerers? Basically the same thing - most sorcerer subclass features are superfluous flotsam added onto the class to make you think your character is more than just a simplified version of the spellcasting engine with the extra NOS system of Metamagic kludged in aftermarket.
Clerics? Clerics are what happens when a playerbase is so entrenched on the idea of 'THE HEALER' that the game's spellcasting engine gets up-armored and overbuffed to hell and back to try and get people to realize otherwise. Again, most of them don't actually have much of diddly-aught bupkis in the way of actual class features, and they have no choices to make either. They're the spellcasting engine...in medium or heavy armor with a bonkin' stick they learn quickly to never use no matter how much they might want to.
Druids? Clerics, except with weird armor restrictions and legacy shapeshifting that makes no god damned sense bolted on. Seriously, anyone with any experience whatsoever with non-D&D druids is Confused Ay_Eff when they find out that literally the only thing druids have going on for their Communion With Nature in this game is turning into predatory nasties to maul people, whilst STILL having no class features beyond the spellcasting engine. Though at least some of the latest UA stuff is veering away from the closet-furry obsession with druids.
Bards are the only full caster class that gets to be an actual class independent of their spellcasting, with other things they can do and other features they can use other than casting spells all the time forever every single turn. They don't get a ton of it, but they DO get some actual class built into their class, which is nice if you have the musical talent and the witty wordplay skill required to play a bard and not humiliate both yourself and your table.
That's why I tend to bag on non-warlock spellcasters when people point to them and say "See?! There's all the depth you need! Stop trying to make my D&D more complicated than the Champion already! DX" Because if you understand spells, those classes barely exist. They're just different colors of plastic wrapping on the same damn rules with very little to distinguish them once you really get into the nitty of it.
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This is actually an excellent argument for the superiority of the warlock over the other spellcasting "classes."
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