So I'll be honest: every time I see leather armor, dual wielding, or something else that in reality was really ineffective and was almost never actually used, I cringe a little. I get that D&D operates by movie realism and Rule of Cool, and I have no problem with things like magic, elves, or superhuman feats of strength, but for some reason the inaccurate depiction of medieval fighting just gets to me, to the point that I've considered house rules like leather armor = gambeson. Anyone else feel the same, or have other thoughts on medieval realism in D&D?
Changing names and descriptions is not a big deal. I personally would call Padded Armor = Gambeson, but that is up to you.
For me it is the ranged weapons. Archery as a DEX base attack? Yeah, no. Archery requires huge strength to draw the bow and then to hold it ready while you aim. Nets to restrain? No they were used to distract, trip, or entangle weapon arms
Changing names and descriptions is not a big deal. I personally would call Padded Armor = Gambeson, but that is up to you.
For me it is the ranged weapons. Archery as a DEX base attack? Yeah, no. Archery requires huge strength to draw the bow and then to hold it ready while you aim. Nets to restrain? No they were used to distract, trip, or entangle weapon arms
Strength to draw determines what bows you can use but it is still manual dexterity to aim.
Have you ever actually fired a medieval bow? I have. When you are beginning you pull back the bow and your hands literally SHAKE. You need to have the strength to hold it drawn while you aim. Dexterity is worthless without the strength to hold the bow drawn. (Especially in medieval armies that have hundreds of men grouped together and firing as a group at another group.)
That is the entire reason a crossbow is easier to aim - you do not have to hold the cord drawn. Holding it sideways and the trigger does nothing. Crossbows need some strength to draw, but shooting them are all about dexterity. Long bows and short bows? All about the strength.
Its also almost the entire benefit of the modern compound bow. The pulley system does not decrease the energy needed to draw the bow - that would lessen the force. Instead it lets you invest the energy while drawing the bow, but once it is drawn the pulleys reduce the amount of strength necessary to hold the bow drawn.
Medieval bow men were all brawny strong men. Weaklings need not apply.
For, it's when people use pikes to attack someone five feet away. Those were huge, and it would have been insanely difficult to hit someone right next to you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
So I'll be honest: every time I see leather armor, dual wielding, or something else that in reality was really ineffective and was almost never actually used, I cringe a little. I get that D&D operates by movie realism and Rule of Cool, and I have no problem with things like magic, elves, or superhuman feats of strength, but for some reason the inaccurate depiction of medieval fighting just gets to me, to the point that I've considered house rules like leather armor = gambeson. Anyone else feel the same, or have other thoughts on medieval realism in D&D?
Honestly, I kinda cringe at the opposite. In a world where people have superhuman strength and can literally materialize fireballs from nothing, some people insist that the same world must behave according to real world physics and medieval technology. Could leather armor not be more effective in a world with magical beasts providing the leather? Could dual wielding not be possible with elvish scimitars made with crafting techniques and materials we can't even comprehend? If I want to play a realistic medieval simulation, I'll play something else.
I have an easier time with suspension of disbelief through verbal storytelling. I can forgive discrepancies in my mind's theatre but less so in a visual theater. Also, the more effort in realism that one makes in their story, the less forgiving I become.
I find it easy to be forgiving of D&D's medieval inaccuracies as long as it's largely left up to imagination.
(I'm certain I mentioned the medieval Spanish Z not sounding like the modern "Castilian Lisp" Z, but that's a matter of trivia, not a demand for accuracy. D&D "Common" in many regions of modern Spain will most likely use the Castilian Z. So, no big deal if someone says Corathón instead of Coradzón for the awesome pirate, Corazón.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
So I'll be honest: every time I see leather armor, dual wielding, or something else that in reality was really ineffective and was almost never actually used, I cringe a little. I get that D&D operates by movie realism and Rule of Cool, and I have no problem with things like magic, elves, or superhuman feats of strength, but for some reason the inaccurate depiction of medieval fighting just gets to me, to the point that I've considered house rules like leather armor = gambeson. Anyone else feel the same, or have other thoughts on medieval realism in D&D?
I'm the same. I have a huge list of house rules that I spent a lot of time and energy on to make 5e work in a way that satisfied my sense of verisimilitude. Unfortunately due to COVID-19, my group only got to play two sessions using the rules which didn't have any real combat in them so I haven't managed to playtest them extensively. And discussing rules like that anywhere (including here) is just not worth the headache of, "Why are you doing this? What purpose does it serve? D&D is a fantasy game! Use another system! You're doing D&D WRONG!" Ugh. So yeah, even trying to work with people on it and get feedback and ideas was too much hassle. I think I've mostly nailed it but I until I can stress test it, it's all theorycrafting.
Changing names and descriptions is not a big deal. I personally would call Padded Armor = Gambeson, but that is up to you.
For me it is the ranged weapons. Archery as a DEX base attack? Yeah, no. Archery requires huge strength to draw the bow and then to hold it ready while you aim. Nets to restrain? No they were used to distract, trip, or entangle weapon arms
Strength to draw determines what bows you can use but it is still manual dexterity to aim.
Have you ever actually fired a medieval bow? I have. When you are beginning you pull back the bow and your hands literally SHAKE. You need to have the strength to hold it drawn while you aim. Dexterity is worthless without the strength to hold the bow drawn. (Especially in medieval armies that have hundreds of men grouped together and firing as a group at another group.)
That is the entire reason a crossbow is easier to aim - you do not have to hold the cord drawn. Holding it sideways and the trigger does nothing. Crossbows need some strength to draw, but shooting them are all about dexterity. Long bows and short bows? All about the strength.
Its also almost the entire benefit of the modern compound bow. The pulley system does not decrease the energy needed to draw the bow - that would lessen the force. Instead it lets you invest the energy while drawing the bow, but once it is drawn the pulleys reduce the amount of strength necessary to hold the bow drawn.
Medieval bow men were all brawny strong men. Weaklings need not apply.
Yes, but if you have two people both strong enough to draw a bow, they will likely not be equally accurate. And the difference is not in strength. If you are not strong enough to properly use it, of course you will have accuracy problems.
A crossbow has an actual trigger. Someone stronger than yourself could have loaded it for you and it does not require your personal strength to hold back the string of a loaded crossbow. Do you still insist that they are strength based for accuracy? Once you take the ability to hold the bow drawn out of the picture, strength ceases to be a significant factor in use. Hence strength requirements to use, but dex for accuracy.
I agree. if it were me? I would set a 13 str requirement for the longbow, and the dexterity off attack and damage, to simulate the aiming and firing, as well as for how fast you can shoot
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
The fact that crossbows can be fired 9 times in 6 seconds by a level 20 fighter with crossbow expert, using action surge and the bonus action attack.
A medieval crossbow could take up to half a minute to reload, or 15 seconds at the fastest by professional crossbowmen.
So, reloading in 1.5 seconds is 10 times faster than the fastest of the fast in medieval times, and not accurate.
a level 20 fighter is basically a demigod. a level 20 samurai can make up to 22 attacks in a round. I dont think that is possible. I would rule that each of the attacks is only 1 or 2 attacks, but they do more damage? idk I am no good at this sort of thing ;)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Changing names and descriptions is not a big deal. I personally would call Padded Armor = Gambeson, but that is up to you.
For me it is the ranged weapons. Archery as a DEX base attack? Yeah, no. Archery requires huge strength to draw the bow and then to hold it ready while you aim. Nets to restrain? No they were used to distract, trip, or entangle weapon arms
Strength to draw determines what bows you can use but it is still manual dexterity to aim.
Have you ever actually fired a medieval bow? I have. When you are beginning you pull back the bow and your hands literally SHAKE. You need to have the strength to hold it drawn while you aim. Dexterity is worthless without the strength to hold the bow drawn. (Especially in medieval armies that have hundreds of men grouped together and firing as a group at another group.)
That is the entire reason a crossbow is easier to aim - you do not have to hold the cord drawn. Holding it sideways and the trigger does nothing. Crossbows need some strength to draw, but shooting them are all about dexterity. Long bows and short bows? All about the strength.
Its also almost the entire benefit of the modern compound bow. The pulley system does not decrease the energy needed to draw the bow - that would lessen the force. Instead it lets you invest the energy while drawing the bow, but once it is drawn the pulleys reduce the amount of strength necessary to hold the bow drawn.
Medieval bow men were all brawny strong men. Weaklings need not apply.
Yes, but if you have two people both strong enough to draw a bow, they will likely not be equally accurate. And the difference is not in strength. If you are not strong enough to properly use it, of course you will have accuracy problems.
A crossbow has an actual trigger. Someone stronger than yourself could have loaded it for you and it does not require your personal strength to hold back the string of a loaded crossbow. Do you still insist that they are strength based for accuracy? Once you take the ability to hold the bow drawn out of the picture, strength ceases to be a significant factor in use. Hence strength requirements to use, but dex for accuracy.
I agree. if it were me? I would set a 13 str requirement for the longbow, and the dexterity off attack and damage, to simulate the aiming and firing, as well as for how fast you can shoot
See, that I can agree with.
also longbows were never pulled back and held, you aim with your eyes, then when you are ready to shoot, you draw and release in one smooth motion
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
RAW may omit homebrew, but D&D says it's fine to do it. Just have your session 0 and figure out how you wish to set the stage. The lore and mechanics are a starting point. Where you take it from there is up to you.
That stated:
I like the idea of comparing real history with fantasy. It gives me ideas on homebrew. So, do! Keep it coming!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
RAW may omit homebrew, but D&D says it's fine to do it. Just have your session 0 and figure out how you wish to set the stage. The lore and mechanics are a starting point. Where you take it from there is up to you.
That stated:
I like the idea of comparing real history with fantasy. It gives me ideas on homebrew. So, do! Keep it coming!
weeeeeelll. lets burn all spell casters cause of the Salem witch trials.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Are there not communities in 5e lore where open use of magic is met with fear? That would seem like a huge oversight.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
a level 20 fighter is basically a demigod. a level 20 samurai can make up to 22 attacks in a round. I dont think that is possible. I would rule that each of the attacks is only 1 or 2 attacks, but they do more damage? idk I am no good at this sort of thing ;)
I know this is a bit off topic but where are you getting 22 attacks in a round? They can get 4 from normal Attack Action 4 from Action Surge and 1 bonus action. They can then replace a single attack at advantage with two non-advantage attacks (Rapid Strike says only once per turn). So in total 10. Even if they trigger Strength Before Death in the same round and use another Action surge that's a total of 20. So how 22?
You're right though - level 20 characters absolutely are demigods and can't be compared with real-world history.
So I'll be honest: every time I see leather armor, dual wielding, or something else that in reality was really ineffective and was almost never actually used, I cringe a little. I get that D&D operates by movie realism and Rule of Cool, and I have no problem with things like magic, elves, or superhuman feats of strength, but for some reason the inaccurate depiction of medieval fighting just gets to me, to the point that I've considered house rules like leather armor = gambeson. Anyone else feel the same, or have other thoughts on medieval realism in D&D?
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Changing names and descriptions is not a big deal. I personally would call Padded Armor = Gambeson, but that is up to you.
For me it is the ranged weapons. Archery as a DEX base attack? Yeah, no. Archery requires huge strength to draw the bow and then to hold it ready while you aim. Nets to restrain? No they were used to distract, trip, or entangle weapon arms
Have you ever actually fired a medieval bow? I have. When you are beginning you pull back the bow and your hands literally SHAKE. You need to have the strength to hold it drawn while you aim. Dexterity is worthless without the strength to hold the bow drawn. (Especially in medieval armies that have hundreds of men grouped together and firing as a group at another group.)
That is the entire reason a crossbow is easier to aim - you do not have to hold the cord drawn. Holding it sideways and the trigger does nothing. Crossbows need some strength to draw, but shooting them are all about dexterity. Long bows and short bows? All about the strength.
Its also almost the entire benefit of the modern compound bow. The pulley system does not decrease the energy needed to draw the bow - that would lessen the force. Instead it lets you invest the energy while drawing the bow, but once it is drawn the pulleys reduce the amount of strength necessary to hold the bow drawn.
Medieval bow men were all brawny strong men. Weaklings need not apply.
For, it's when people use pikes to attack someone five feet away. Those were huge, and it would have been insanely difficult to hit someone right next to you.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Honestly, I kinda cringe at the opposite. In a world where people have superhuman strength and can literally materialize fireballs from nothing, some people insist that the same world must behave according to real world physics and medieval technology. Could leather armor not be more effective in a world with magical beasts providing the leather? Could dual wielding not be possible with elvish scimitars made with crafting techniques and materials we can't even comprehend? If I want to play a realistic medieval simulation, I'll play something else.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I have an easier time with suspension of disbelief through verbal storytelling. I can forgive discrepancies in my mind's theatre but less so in a visual theater. Also, the more effort in realism that one makes in their story, the less forgiving I become.
I find it easy to be forgiving of D&D's medieval inaccuracies as long as it's largely left up to imagination.
(I'm certain I mentioned the medieval Spanish Z not sounding like the modern "Castilian Lisp" Z, but that's a matter of trivia, not a demand for accuracy. D&D "Common" in many regions of modern Spain will most likely use the Castilian Z. So, no big deal if someone says Corathón instead of Coradzón for the awesome pirate, Corazón.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
The fact that crossbows can be fired 9 times in 6 seconds by a level 20 fighter with crossbow expert, using action surge and the bonus action attack.
A medieval crossbow could take up to half a minute to reload, or 15 seconds at the fastest by professional crossbowmen.
So, reloading in 1.5 seconds is 10 times faster than the fastest of the fast in medieval times, and not accurate.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm the same. I have a huge list of house rules that I spent a lot of time and energy on to make 5e work in a way that satisfied my sense of verisimilitude. Unfortunately due to COVID-19, my group only got to play two sessions using the rules which didn't have any real combat in them so I haven't managed to playtest them extensively. And discussing rules like that anywhere (including here) is just not worth the headache of, "Why are you doing this? What purpose does it serve? D&D is a fantasy game! Use another system! You're doing D&D WRONG!" Ugh. So yeah, even trying to work with people on it and get feedback and ideas was too much hassle. I think I've mostly nailed it but I until I can stress test it, it's all theorycrafting.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I agree. if it were me? I would set a 13 str requirement for the longbow, and the dexterity off attack and damage, to simulate the aiming and firing, as well as for how fast you can shoot
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
a level 20 fighter is basically a demigod. a level 20 samurai can make up to 22 attacks in a round. I dont think that is possible. I would rule that each of the attacks is only 1 or 2 attacks, but they do more damage? idk I am no good at this sort of thing ;)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
also longbows were never pulled back and held, you aim with your eyes, then when you are ready to shoot, you draw and release in one smooth motion
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Answer: A Wizard did it! (...from the Coast).
RAW may omit homebrew, but D&D says it's fine to do it. Just have your session 0 and figure out how you wish to set the stage. The lore and mechanics are a starting point. Where you take it from there is up to you.
That stated:
I like the idea of comparing real history with fantasy. It gives me ideas on homebrew. So, do! Keep it coming!
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
weeeeeelll. lets burn all spell casters cause of the Salem witch trials.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Are there not communities in 5e lore where open use of magic is met with fear? That would seem like a huge oversight.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
there probably are somewhere
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I know this is a bit off topic but where are you getting 22 attacks in a round? They can get 4 from normal Attack Action 4 from Action Surge and 1 bonus action. They can then replace a single attack at advantage with two non-advantage attacks (Rapid Strike says only once per turn). So in total 10. Even if they trigger Strength Before Death in the same round and use another Action surge that's a total of 20. So how 22?
You're right though - level 20 characters absolutely are demigods and can't be compared with real-world history.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/eflch2/fun_fact_a_level_20_samurai_can_potentially_make/
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Right - Haste. Weird to include that as the Samurai themselves can't get that. They need an item or another player.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
yeah ik. but still. 20 attacks is pretty good considering
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
After reading this reddit thread I feel an overwhelming desire to play a samurai in an anime themed campaign. :D :D
Thank you for sharing this. :-)