To give an abbreviated course of events, I am in a campaign that is no longer fun. I have a personality conflict with one of the people in the table that has been progressively getting worse. I am newish to 5th edition: only played to lv 5 and 6 with two characters, and come from playing 3.5 while in college. The player in question is meta-gaming, and playing a character that rubs me the wrong way.
After talking around to others at the game shop I found out that she is constantly meta-gaming and a rules layer. Last week I asked if she was meta-gaming and later was called out by the DM for bullying.
With the DM saying I was bullying I don't think I can simply say what is on my mind. Any advise would be appreciated on how to back out of a campaign.
If you’re sure, just let the DM know. Be civil about it, give them your reasons (no need to be very specific, broad strokes will do), don’t show up anymore, done.
If you’re not 100% sure, still let the DM know you’re thinking about it. Still be civil, still give them your reasons. Take your cue from their response.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
D&D is supposed to be about having fun. If you're not having fun at the gaming table and you can't work out a compromise with the other players, quitting is the right call.
Also, you don't ow the other people a detailed explanation for why you're leaving if you're not comfortable with doing so. Feel free to just say that the game isn't working out for you, or heck, make up an excuse.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If the “table” is no longer a pleasant place to sit, then stand up. There is an expression that I can confirm has existed in D&D going as far back as the early ‘90s, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn it goes all the way back to the ‘70s to be honest.
If it isn't fun for you, you're better off leaving. That's the whole point of D&D, having a good time. Your situation sounds wack though, so good luck dealing with that. Don't forget to mention that you're leaving a fair while before you actually leave so your character can be sent off in a proper fashion, or your absence can be explained or something, y'know? Either way, good luck with dealing with this. Hope your next party turns out to be a good one!
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"I don't always do things right, and I don't always do things smart, and I don't always do a character voice, but whatever I do, I find joy in it. Because at the end of the day, that's all you got. It's looking back on the joy you had, and the joy you found, and the joy you gave other people." -->Merle Highchurch, The Adventure Zone: Balance.
Yeah, if someone is accusing you of "bullying" for simply pointing out metagaming, you have a problem at the table, and it's not the metagaming player.
I really hope you are suggesting the problem is with the DM. The term "bullying" is thrown around so much these days it is ludicrous, and loses all meaning. The OP was quite correct to call out a meta-gaming player, and the DM has lost all perspective if the DM thinks that is "bullying". The only option the poster has is to walk away.
That being said, he mentioned a "game shop". And mentioned "others". That leads me to believe there are other games going on at the shop, possibly at the same time. It takes a bit of a political dance to move from one table to another, when all involved know each other, and may even be in line of sight/ earshot on a regular basis. I did it once in that scenario, but that DM was notorious for being well...nuts. I do hope the OP has a fallback plan for playing at another table, but he should feel no remorse for leaving a table he is unhappy at.
Have a sit down with the entire group. Normally if there is a problem player the others will see it too and have similar feelings. They may not be having fun because of the same player. If you have a nice open civil discussion then you can iron it out in about 5 minutes. "I don't like the way you play, it may work for you, but I cannot continue in the group if you continue to metagame. If the sentiment is not shared by the rest of the group then I will respectfully bow out so the group can continue to enjoy the game. Does anyone else feel the similarly?" Don't waste any time and get it handled as soon as possible.
Have a sit down with the entire group. Normally if there is a problem player the others will see it too and have similar feelings. They may not be having fun because of the same player. If you have a nice open civil discussion then you can iron it out in about 5 minutes. "I don't like the way you play, it may work for you, but I cannot continue in the group if you continue to metagame. If the sentiment is not shared by the rest of the group then I will respectfully bow out so the group can continue to enjoy the game. Does anyone else feel the similarly?" Don't waste any time and get it handled as soon as possible.
Sure...works in theory, not in practice. If the DM thought the OP was bullying a player when the OP stated the player was metagaming, the same DM will lose their mind if a player makes an passive aggressive ultimatum like that. The OP would be bounced out of the group in seconds by the DM.
The real world, and real people, work far differently, than "we can sit down and have a civil discussion as to how the DM and meta-gaming player are ruining my fun".
I would at least be up front and honest with the players you enjoyed playing with before leaving, as opposed to leaving without a word or only speaking to the DM. Groups break up and reform, and keeping yourself on the radar of like-minded players might score you a new group down the road. I found my current group when one guy from a bad pick-up game at a gaming store asked me if I wanted in to his other game. That was about 10 years ago now.
The OP was quite correct to call out a meta-gaming player
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I do not think it is appropriate for a player at the table to police the behavior of the other players. If someone's going to do that job, it should be the DM.
I'm not saying that the player should "just be OK with the metagaming" -- no, not at all. But calling out the player at the table is adversarial and this will never lead to anything good. As a DM, I would probably not say you are bullying, but I would say, "Let me worry about whether people are metagaming or not." And even as a DM, I would not call someone out publicly at the table -- I would talk to the player privately in between sessions, explain what metagaming means to me, and why I dislike it, and respectfully request that they stop doing it. If that does not work, I might have to escalate, and that might eventually lead to calling someone out at the table, but I would hope it would not get to that level (and luckily for me it never has).
If another player is upsetting you over any behavior, metagaming or not, I would suggest the proper course of action is to speak first to the DM. Let the DM do the job of a DM: to be an impartial mediator. The DM can then determine the best course of action, such as calling both parties together for a meeting and talking it out.
But I would not look positively on one of my players calling out another player at the table for metagaming or just about anything else. I wouldn't say it is bullying -- just that it is inappropriate, and in my experience, it is never going to lead to good results. It is not the players' role to police each other at the table, and as a DM, I do not allow it. If I saw one of my players doing it, I would ask them to stop.
And of course, as IamSposta said, no D&D is better than bad D&D... if it bugs you that much, quit.
Same advice as you would for life. You know this stuff already.
Do you have any reason or desire to continue relationships with anyone at the table, notably the DM or player involved? If the answer is yes, have a conversation.
If the answer is no then it's as simple as, "hey I'm not having fun anymore. I'm out. Thanks anyway."
Have a sit down with the entire group. Normally if there is a problem player the others will see it too and have similar feelings. They may not be having fun because of the same player. If you have a nice open civil discussion then you can iron it out in about 5 minutes. "I don't like the way you play, it may work for you, but I cannot continue in the group if you continue to metagame. If the sentiment is not shared by the rest of the group then I will respectfully bow out so the group can continue to enjoy the game. Does anyone else feel the similarly?" Don't waste any time and get it handled as soon as possible.
Sure...works in theory, not in practice. If the DM thought the OP was bullying a player when the OP stated the player was metagaming, the same DM will lose their mind if a player makes an passive aggressive ultimatum like that. The OP would be bounced out of the group in seconds by the DM.
The real world, and real people, work far differently, than "we can sit down and have a civil discussion as to how the DM and meta-gaming player are ruining my fun".
Completely works in real life. If they are not able to have a conversation like that and you get bounced then all the better. Not sure what real world you are speaking of but being blunt and honest in a situation where you are ready to quit anyway is the most direct and concrete way to have clarity.
Have a sit down with the entire group. Normally if there is a problem player the others will see it too and have similar feelings. They may not be having fun because of the same player. If you have a nice open civil discussion then you can iron it out in about 5 minutes. "I don't like the way you play, it may work for you, but I cannot continue in the group if you continue to metagame. If the sentiment is not shared by the rest of the group then I will respectfully bow out so the group can continue to enjoy the game. Does anyone else feel the similarly?" Don't waste any time and get it handled as soon as possible.
Sure...works in theory, not in practice. If the DM thought the OP was bullying a player when the OP stated the player was metagaming, the same DM will lose their mind if a player makes an passive aggressive ultimatum like that. The OP would be bounced out of the group in seconds by the DM.
The real world, and real people, work far differently, than "we can sit down and have a civil discussion as to how the DM and meta-gaming player are ruining my fun".
Completely works in real life. If they are not able to have a conversation like that and you get bounced then all the better. Not sure what real world you are speaking of but being blunt and honest in a situation where you are ready to quit anyway is the most direct and concrete way to have clarity.
Oh, I totally follow the "blunt and honest" theme. And yes, it would be better to get bounced from the game than continue. I would still prefer walking away on my own terms. Based on the tiny amount of info we have about this DM, the DM will lose it when approached in the manner you suggest.
To the point, if you're not having fun and you don't see an available remedy in the game (and it does seems like you were "ruled" against when you aired the specific conduct that bothers you) saying "I'm sorry, I'm just not enjoying this group and I think it'd be better if I gave up my seat to a player who will gel better and I find another table to play at" is all I'd say you _have_ to do if you're as frustrated at your group as your post sounds.
That said, quitting is also often not fun so I could see you being on the fence about it. In the best of possible worlds, the DM will accept your decision, maybe even ask for some post game feedback (rare, but I'd say best practices for a DM) and let the group know they're in the market for another players. Of course, the best often doesn't happen. The DM may take it personally and deflect whatever negative feeling they have from "rejection" into blame on you. The rest of the group may talk smack about you at the shop etc. Don't pay attention to that sideshow. If anyone asks "I thought you were in group x?" be the bigger person and just say that sometimes individual players and tables don't work out and you're now trying to find a better fit.
The only reason I wouldn't pull the trigger on leaving (see the metaphors we use for quitting? part of the culture that makes quitting not fun) would be if it's very very difficult to find games in your specific geography or circumstances and/or other players at your table recognize your misgivings for the table ... in which case a table talk may be in order if you other players will present the problem with you. You don't owe the table the effort to lead them to what you see as better play, so if game improvement is to be on the table it should be a joint effort at introducing the issue to the DM and the other players.
I wanted my response to focus on the OP's question. As for the ramping up digression on metagaming call outs ... I think hard and fast rules on what players should and should not do in expressing reaction to another player's actions really can't be coded in absolutes. That said, in every other game or rules based activity (jobs, business and bureaucracy), if another player or participant senses a player or participant is either "cheating" or engaging in some exploit of the system ... the rest of life presumes the activity's referees are not omniscient and it's completely above board to either call foul or impropriety. Maybe standing up and pointing or double finger-gunning the player and exclaiming "J'accuse metagaming!" isn't the way to do it, but saying "can we have a time out moment, I don't understand how this character's actions can be explained by the character's knowledge of the game world. Are we as a table good with this level of metagaming? If so, I'll just keep the MM open on my compendium app" is entirely fair. To expand upon one ideal of good DMing "How are we going to do this?" I feel it's entirely appropriate on occasion to take a moment in play or at the start or end of session with a question to the table "are we all good with the way we're doing this?"
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Have you tried asking to have a private chat among you, the DM, and this player? Talk about what bothers you without blame or recrimination. Make it known that one option on the table is that you leave the game, but that you don't prefer that. Have you considered, instead of taking offense at being called out for bullying, you reflect on how you acted and consider if you would do anything differently next time?
If you still aren't having fun, you should leave. Just give the DM advance warning before a session and agree to a way your character can exit the campaign. Maybe you will play through a final session where your character will die or part ways with the party. Or maybe you won't come to the next session and the DM will just explain how your character isn't there when the party wakes up at camp.
The best part of D&D is having fun as a group - the crazy things that happen, the shared memories, etc. If you are not having fun, what's the point? However, what is fun for you may be different than what is fun for others. I have been fortunate to have a group that was big on role playing - we got into our character's likes and dislikes, and developed as a family. For others, they could care less about that and just want to level up, become more powerful and eventually enslave the gods of the world. Neither is wrong, it is whatever is fun.
My suggestion would be to talk to the other player, without emotion, outside of the game, and let her know that the way she plays is taking some of the enjoyment out of it for you. Be careful to not make it an attack on her, but to see what you can do to make the game fun again. Seems like the other players don't mind, so maybe you just need to find a different group.
Still it's nice when people come back with stories like that poor bard with a familiar, it's just that it happens too rarely.
Yeah, agree here. Many stories here or on reddit about somewhat toxic gaming tables leave me baffled or even with blood boiling when I read them. I get invested and of course I'd like to see the resolution of the situation :D
Though the OP posted during those couple of days between the holidays and the New Year, there is still chance for a follow up.
To give an abbreviated course of events, I am in a campaign that is no longer fun. I have a personality conflict with one of the people in the table that has been progressively getting worse. I am newish to 5th edition: only played to lv 5 and 6 with two characters, and come from playing 3.5 while in college. The player in question is meta-gaming, and playing a character that rubs me the wrong way.
After talking around to others at the game shop I found out that she is constantly meta-gaming and a rules layer. Last week I asked if she was meta-gaming and later was called out by the DM for bullying.
With the DM saying I was bullying I don't think I can simply say what is on my mind. Any advise would be appreciated on how to back out of a campaign.
If you’re sure, just let the DM know. Be civil about it, give them your reasons (no need to be very specific, broad strokes will do), don’t show up anymore, done.
If you’re not 100% sure, still let the DM know you’re thinking about it. Still be civil, still give them your reasons. Take your cue from their response.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
If you want to leave then just leave.
D&D is supposed to be about having fun. If you're not having fun at the gaming table and you can't work out a compromise with the other players, quitting is the right call.
Also, you don't ow the other people a detailed explanation for why you're leaving if you're not comfortable with doing so. Feel free to just say that the game isn't working out for you, or heck, make up an excuse.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If the “table” is no longer a pleasant place to sit, then stand up. There is an expression that I can confirm has existed in D&D going as far back as the early ‘90s, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn it goes all the way back to the ‘70s to be honest.
”No D&D is better than bad D&D.”
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If it isn't fun for you, you're better off leaving. That's the whole point of D&D, having a good time. Your situation sounds wack though, so good luck dealing with that. Don't forget to mention that you're leaving a fair while before you actually leave so your character can be sent off in a proper fashion, or your absence can be explained or something, y'know? Either way, good luck with dealing with this. Hope your next party turns out to be a good one!
"I don't always do things right, and I don't always do things smart, and I don't always do a character voice, but whatever I do, I find joy in it. Because at the end of the day, that's all you got. It's looking back on the joy you had, and the joy you found, and the joy you gave other people." -->Merle Highchurch, The Adventure Zone: Balance.
I really hope you are suggesting the problem is with the DM. The term "bullying" is thrown around so much these days it is ludicrous, and loses all meaning. The OP was quite correct to call out a meta-gaming player, and the DM has lost all perspective if the DM thinks that is "bullying". The only option the poster has is to walk away.
That being said, he mentioned a "game shop". And mentioned "others". That leads me to believe there are other games going on at the shop, possibly at the same time. It takes a bit of a political dance to move from one table to another, when all involved know each other, and may even be in line of sight/ earshot on a regular basis. I did it once in that scenario, but that DM was notorious for being well...nuts. I do hope the OP has a fallback plan for playing at another table, but he should feel no remorse for leaving a table he is unhappy at.
Have a sit down with the entire group. Normally if there is a problem player the others will see it too and have similar feelings. They may not be having fun because of the same player. If you have a nice open civil discussion then you can iron it out in about 5 minutes. "I don't like the way you play, it may work for you, but I cannot continue in the group if you continue to metagame. If the sentiment is not shared by the rest of the group then I will respectfully bow out so the group can continue to enjoy the game. Does anyone else feel the similarly?" Don't waste any time and get it handled as soon as possible.
Sure...works in theory, not in practice. If the DM thought the OP was bullying a player when the OP stated the player was metagaming, the same DM will lose their mind if a player makes an passive aggressive ultimatum like that. The OP would be bounced out of the group in seconds by the DM.
The real world, and real people, work far differently, than "we can sit down and have a civil discussion as to how the DM and meta-gaming player are ruining my fun".
I would at least be up front and honest with the players you enjoyed playing with before leaving, as opposed to leaving without a word or only speaking to the DM. Groups break up and reform, and keeping yourself on the radar of like-minded players might score you a new group down the road. I found my current group when one guy from a bad pick-up game at a gaming store asked me if I wanted in to his other game. That was about 10 years ago now.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I do not think it is appropriate for a player at the table to police the behavior of the other players. If someone's going to do that job, it should be the DM.
I'm not saying that the player should "just be OK with the metagaming" -- no, not at all. But calling out the player at the table is adversarial and this will never lead to anything good. As a DM, I would probably not say you are bullying, but I would say, "Let me worry about whether people are metagaming or not." And even as a DM, I would not call someone out publicly at the table -- I would talk to the player privately in between sessions, explain what metagaming means to me, and why I dislike it, and respectfully request that they stop doing it. If that does not work, I might have to escalate, and that might eventually lead to calling someone out at the table, but I would hope it would not get to that level (and luckily for me it never has).
If another player is upsetting you over any behavior, metagaming or not, I would suggest the proper course of action is to speak first to the DM. Let the DM do the job of a DM: to be an impartial mediator. The DM can then determine the best course of action, such as calling both parties together for a meeting and talking it out.
But I would not look positively on one of my players calling out another player at the table for metagaming or just about anything else. I wouldn't say it is bullying -- just that it is inappropriate, and in my experience, it is never going to lead to good results. It is not the players' role to police each other at the table, and as a DM, I do not allow it. If I saw one of my players doing it, I would ask them to stop.
And of course, as IamSposta said, no D&D is better than bad D&D... if it bugs you that much, quit.
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Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Same advice as you would for life. You know this stuff already.
Do you have any reason or desire to continue relationships with anyone at the table, notably the DM or player involved? If the answer is yes, have a conversation.
If the answer is no then it's as simple as, "hey I'm not having fun anymore. I'm out. Thanks anyway."
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Completely works in real life. If they are not able to have a conversation like that and you get bounced then all the better. Not sure what real world you are speaking of but being blunt and honest in a situation where you are ready to quit anyway is the most direct and concrete way to have clarity.
Oh, I totally follow the "blunt and honest" theme. And yes, it would be better to get bounced from the game than continue. I would still prefer walking away on my own terms. Based on the tiny amount of info we have about this DM, the DM will lose it when approached in the manner you suggest.
If it were just a casual table, the appropriate response could have been to tell OP that it was allowed, not to accuse them of bullying.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
To the point, if you're not having fun and you don't see an available remedy in the game (and it does seems like you were "ruled" against when you aired the specific conduct that bothers you) saying "I'm sorry, I'm just not enjoying this group and I think it'd be better if I gave up my seat to a player who will gel better and I find another table to play at" is all I'd say you _have_ to do if you're as frustrated at your group as your post sounds.
That said, quitting is also often not fun so I could see you being on the fence about it. In the best of possible worlds, the DM will accept your decision, maybe even ask for some post game feedback (rare, but I'd say best practices for a DM) and let the group know they're in the market for another players. Of course, the best often doesn't happen. The DM may take it personally and deflect whatever negative feeling they have from "rejection" into blame on you. The rest of the group may talk smack about you at the shop etc. Don't pay attention to that sideshow. If anyone asks "I thought you were in group x?" be the bigger person and just say that sometimes individual players and tables don't work out and you're now trying to find a better fit.
The only reason I wouldn't pull the trigger on leaving (see the metaphors we use for quitting? part of the culture that makes quitting not fun) would be if it's very very difficult to find games in your specific geography or circumstances and/or other players at your table recognize your misgivings for the table ... in which case a table talk may be in order if you other players will present the problem with you. You don't owe the table the effort to lead them to what you see as better play, so if game improvement is to be on the table it should be a joint effort at introducing the issue to the DM and the other players.
I wanted my response to focus on the OP's question. As for the ramping up digression on metagaming call outs ... I think hard and fast rules on what players should and should not do in expressing reaction to another player's actions really can't be coded in absolutes. That said, in every other game or rules based activity (jobs, business and bureaucracy), if another player or participant senses a player or participant is either "cheating" or engaging in some exploit of the system ... the rest of life presumes the activity's referees are not omniscient and it's completely above board to either call foul or impropriety. Maybe standing up and pointing or double finger-gunning the player and exclaiming "J'accuse metagaming!" isn't the way to do it, but saying "can we have a time out moment, I don't understand how this character's actions can be explained by the character's knowledge of the game world. Are we as a table good with this level of metagaming? If so, I'll just keep the MM open on my compendium app" is entirely fair. To expand upon one ideal of good DMing "How are we going to do this?" I feel it's entirely appropriate on occasion to take a moment in play or at the start or end of session with a question to the table "are we all good with the way we're doing this?"
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Have you tried asking to have a private chat among you, the DM, and this player? Talk about what bothers you without blame or recrimination. Make it known that one option on the table is that you leave the game, but that you don't prefer that. Have you considered, instead of taking offense at being called out for bullying, you reflect on how you acted and consider if you would do anything differently next time?
If you still aren't having fun, you should leave. Just give the DM advance warning before a session and agree to a way your character can exit the campaign. Maybe you will play through a final session where your character will die or part ways with the party. Or maybe you won't come to the next session and the DM will just explain how your character isn't there when the party wakes up at camp.
I wish the OPs of these threads would come back and update on what happened after their post.
The best part of D&D is having fun as a group - the crazy things that happen, the shared memories, etc. If you are not having fun, what's the point? However, what is fun for you may be different than what is fun for others. I have been fortunate to have a group that was big on role playing - we got into our character's likes and dislikes, and developed as a family. For others, they could care less about that and just want to level up, become more powerful and eventually enslave the gods of the world. Neither is wrong, it is whatever is fun.
My suggestion would be to talk to the other player, without emotion, outside of the game, and let her know that the way she plays is taking some of the enjoyment out of it for you. Be careful to not make it an attack on her, but to see what you can do to make the game fun again. Seems like the other players don't mind, so maybe you just need to find a different group.
Yeah, agree here. Many stories here or on reddit about somewhat toxic gaming tables leave me baffled or even with blood boiling when I read them. I get invested and of course I'd like to see the resolution of the situation :D
Though the OP posted during those couple of days between the holidays and the New Year, there is still chance for a follow up.