I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
The trouble is that in 5e now literally every caster is a spontaneous caster. No one prepares spells by slot any more. So limited known spells is just a straight out nerf to sorcerers.
Origin based spell lists are a great way to make subclasses distinct while fixing the most dire problem with sorcerers, which is zero utility due to the stupidly small number of known spells.
When the best way to play a class is to multiclass, you know there's a balance issue. No one recommends multi classing a wizard.
I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
I think how they handled it in Tasha’s for the Clockwork and Aberrant subclasses was a good idea. And allowing them to swap out spells with spells of limited spell schools gives them versatility. I think all sorcerers should have this.
And the idea of luigrein on post #92 about spending hit die to gain Sorcery Points (although I would probably limit it to a number of hit die equal to half your sorcerer level, rounded down) is also a good idea. Edit: I’m doing a bad job of paraphrasing their post so I will quote the relevant part here:
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
And i think certain metamagics should be incorporated into core sorcerer class features, and then more metamagic options added. They should be able to twist magic like a clown making balloon animals.
Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
Spells known is a terrible metric by which to compare Sorcerers to any class, because Sorcerers can do more with each spell they have.
Your comments that additional Sorcery Points are insufficient and need to be paired with additional meta magic is well taken. I agree with you on that. That’s why each Sorcerer subclass has additional things they can do with their SP. I agree that that is still not enough. The class needs two or three more meta magic. I think this is a good way to emphasize the source of power. Perhaps some sorcerers get a free enhanced spell meta magic limited to a specific element (ice, fire, whatever) or, instead, can get a free subtle metamagic limited to illusions or limited to enchantment or, instead, a free quick metamagic limited to a specific contrip from a pre-selected list.
Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
Spells known is a terrible metric by which to compare Sorcerers to any class, because Sorcerers can do more with each spell they have.
Your comments that additional Sorcery Points are insufficient and need to be paired with additional meta magic is well taken. I agree with you on that. That’s why each Sorcerer subclass has additional things they can do with their SP. I agree that that is still not enough. The class needs two or three more meta magic. I think this is a good way to emphasize the source of power. Perhaps some sorcerers get a free enhanced spell meta magic limited to a specific element (ice, fire, whatever) or, instead, can get a free subtle metamagic limited to illusions or limited to enchantment or, instead, a free quick metamagic limited to a specific contrip from a pre-selected list.
Maybe make it so that each subclass gets a free meta? Like, say, Shadow getting Subtle spell, WM getting Empowered, etc.? Pair that with either making Twinned innate or giving one additional meta as you level (maybe levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 instead of 10 and 17? I mean, a lot of games don't even last till 10, let alone 17). That way players get to actually have some fun with the other options.
The best way to probably do that is to actually spell out how often Wild Magic rolls should be
I like the initial d20 for leveled spells...this makes it pretty safe to cast your mage armor at the beginning of the day
But after using Tides of Chaos, it should be *every* leveled spell causes a Wild Magic surge
I said it earlier, but making it so that the player could choose to trigger it off instead of making it DM-exclusive would go a long way towards fixing the problem and making their abilities actually relevant. After all, a lot of the class is simply irrelevant if the GM never actually makes you roll.
“Spells known is a terrible metric by which to compare Sorcerers to any class, because Sorcerers can do more with each spell they have.”
yes they can do more, but not the extent that having 5-10 more spells would allow them to do. A Wizard knows a minimum of 46 spells by L20, a cleric/Druid knows even more. Both have to select 25 spells to work with and 22slots to cast with. A bard has 22 spells known and 22 slots. A sorceror has 15 spells, 4 MM known and 20 SPs to power the MM or add slots. The Tasha’s sorcerors have 25/26 spells known and while they are in many cases better as a single class than other sorcerors because of it they are not overpowering. 5.5 could esily give all the earlier sorcerors another 5-10 subclass specific spells and none would be so good that folks would be dropping Wizard/warlock/Bard/cleric/Druid to play them. They would finally be competitive instead of an also ran. You could even give them extra SP based on their Charisma score and a new MM every 5 levels (2 at L1, a 3rd at L5, etc) and they wouldn’t be OPing.
right now it’s best use, sadly, is as a multiclass with half or third casters so they get access to spells and slots they wouldn’t as a single class. A ranger 11/sorceror 9 knows 7 ranger spells of L1-3, 5 sorceror cantrips, 10 sorceror spells of L1-5 and has 17 slots including L6&7 for a total of 5 cantrips, 17 known spells, 17 slots of up to L7 And 2 metamagics along with a high AC, melee and missile capability and At least 22 more HP. All in All a much more survivable and useful character than most L20 sorcerors.
give it a few more spells, and maybe some more MM & SPs and it’s far more competitive and far more reasonable to single class.
If we accept the notion that metamagic is equivalent to known spells on a 1:1 basis -- which is to say, a metamagic'd spell is considered a new spell known -- then the Sorcerer jumps from 7 known at level 2, to 24 at level 3. That's huge. Each level thereafter, it gains "3" (1 known spell, plus one for each metamagic you could apply to said spell), until level 10, where it goes from 45 to 85. Then at level 17 it jumps from 100 to 147.
Obviously if this was accurate, it would be crazy. Leagues ahead of any other class in terms of spells known. Surely this would be sufficient to make the Sorcerer both powerful and exciting -- especially because 2/3 of those known spells are effectively Sorcerer-only at level 3, and the ratio only gets larger as levels progress. Even if you can't cast them all at the same rate as ordinary spells, the point stands.
However, I think we can all agree that this isn't really accurate at all. Sorcerers don't feel like they know 147 spells at level 20. They don't even feel like they know 24 spells at level 3. It's probably worth examining why that is, if Metamagic is still meant to be core to the Sorcerer going forward.
At the base level, I think some of these metamagic options just aren't any good. But that really only cuts the numbers down at high levels. There's enough of the good ones to cover the first and probably second batch of metamagic selections. Only the third is really wasted, and 85 spells would still be a ton. But I already said that level 3 Sorcerers don't feel like they know 24 spells, so clearly this isn't answering the question.
The existing metamagic options maybe don't change the spells enough to really consider them new spells, except for a few specific instances. Empowered and Heightened, certainly not. Would you say Fireball is a different spell than Fireball But More Damage? Arguably Twinned doesn't either -- often you could just upcast the spell for the same effect. Extended usually doesn't even matter, so in practical terms it doesn't change the spells at all. Sleep For One Minute and Sleep For Two Minutes are not different spells. They're just not.
I mean, maybe 147 spells at level 20 is too much. But I feel like there's gotta be a better way to tone down that hypothetical power level than to make metamagic a feature where you kinda have to hunt down the actually useful synergies amongst all the garbage. Or if there isn't, then maybe the metamagic-centric Sorcerer is a bad idea.
I think you've made a pretty clear case that metamagic is not equivalent to additional spells known.
From a mechanical perspective, it's clear that metamagic is more like having variable level spell slots. Often Twinning a spell is equivalent to upcasting a spell to get an additional target. Same could be said for Extend or Empower. Heightened is kind of like having an additional spell slot, because you get two goes at having them fail the save, but it's less useful against opponents with Legendary resistances (which is when you really want it).
So I think known spells is a perfectly fair metric to compare between the classes. And I think the Tasha's subclasses get it about right. A L20 sorcerer with 15 known spells plus 10 origin spells has a total of 25 spells to choose from to use their spell slots, the same as any other full caster on a given day. But the wizard, cleric, and druid can change their prepared spells on a daily basis whereas the sorcerer is stuck with the same spells day after day. So the sorcerer utility is still significantly diminished relative to other casters, but not to the point that they are a one trick pony.
I think you've made a pretty clear case that metamagic is not equivalent to additional spells known.
From a mechanical perspective, it's clear that metamagic is more like having variable level spell slots. Often Twinning a spell is equivalent to upcasting a spell to get an additional target. Same could be said for Extend or Empower. Heightened is kind of like having an additional spell slot, because you get two goes at having them fail the save, but it's less useful against opponents with Legendary resistances (which is when you really want it).
So I think known spells is a perfectly fair metric to compare between the classes. And I think the Tasha's subclasses get it about right. A L20 sorcerer with 15 known spells plus 10 origin spells has a total of 25 spells to choose from to use their spell slots, the same as any other full caster on a given day. But the wizard, cleric, and druid can change their prepared spells on a daily basis whereas the sorcerer is stuck with the same spells day after day. So the sorcerer utility is still significantly diminished relative to other casters, but not to the point that they are a one trick pony.
Actually now that I think about it Heightened spell is at best equivalent to having an additional level 1 slot for you to cast silvery barbs with.
While wizards and clerics/Druids have lots of spells to choose from each day the reality is that they pretty much take the same load out and only change a few spells if they know they are likely to have a need (you don’t take water breathing in the mountains you take feather fall - on a boat you put away feather fall and load up water breathing). What metamagic replaces is that variability and ability to switch out. So let me suggest a homebrew new metamagic:
alternate energy type- for 5 SP you can change the energy/damage type of your spell. Example you have the spell fireball but you’re facing a red dragon that is immune to fire so you spend the 5SP and convert your fireball into a lightning ball doing full damage to the dragon and surprising the heck out it in the process. yes it’s expensive in terms of SPs but it has an impact worthy of the cost.
another metamagic change I would like to see - careful spell is a junior league version of the evocation ability Sculpt spells - why? Why not just give the sorceror sculpt spells as a metamagic they can choosem maybe for 3SP if you think it’s really a powerful metamagic. Sculpt spells is not broken for the evoker why would it suddenly be broken for the sorceror?
That actually already exists as an 'optional class feature'. Also, 5 SP... No way could that ever be worth it just to change the damage type. 1 point, sure. 2 points... maybe. 3. Too much. It's just something that doesn't come up enough to justify taking as a meta especially if it costs 5 points. That's an extra level 3 spell slot there.
another metamagic change I would like to see - careful spell is a junior league version of the evocation ability Sculpt spells - why? Why not just give the sorceror sculpt spells as a metamagic they can choosem maybe for 3SP if you think it’s really a powerful metamagic. Sculpt spells is not broken for the evoker why would it suddenly be broken for the sorceror?
It's actually more powerful imo. Sculpt Spell only works on Evocation spells, which to be honest, already aren't the most efficient usage of spell slots ...but to each their own
Careful Spell applies to *all spells*
Big group of badies and allies in melee combate? Drop a Web or Hypnotic Pattern on the whole group and exclude your allies. Evocation Wizards can't do that
Sickening Radiance at level 4 is a great usage for Evocation Wizards at higher levels, but it works the same with Careful Spell since it's a save or stuck
Even a spell like Synaptic Static (Enchantment not Evocation)...there are circumstances where I would drop that on a group of baddies and allies. If we're outnumbered and a roll'd low on initiative, I may consider dropping it for the 1d6 penalty on attack rolls for any who fail the save.
You could also just make metamagic free. Cut sorcery points altogether and instead factor it into the power budget of the sorcerer's Spellcasting feature. Example: You learn one spell per level, and every other level you pick a metamagic and attach it to one of your spells. You don't know Scorching Ray anymore, now you know Empowered Scorching Ray, but it doesn't cost anything extra to use because it's built in. Edit: If we're afraid of power levels we could even restrict metamagic by level, similar to how some Eldritch Invocations or Runes are.
I haven't played a lot of Sorcerer so I don't know to what degree you usually use the same metamagic for different spells. But it seems like a lot of them you pick with specific spell combos in mind anyway, and while the ability to mix and match is surely nice, maybe it's not so crucial to the class that you couldn't cut it in favor of something better. Whether this would *be* better, I don't know. It's kind of interesting though.
I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
While I won't deny that the limited spells is defining, it shouldn't be in the same league as classes that weren't even meant to be casters.
The trouble is that in 5e now literally every caster is a spontaneous caster. No one prepares spells by slot any more. So limited known spells is just a straight out nerf to sorcerers.
Origin based spell lists are a great way to make subclasses distinct while fixing the most dire problem with sorcerers, which is zero utility due to the stupidly small number of known spells.
When the best way to play a class is to multiclass, you know there's a balance issue. No one recommends multi classing a wizard.
Why not?
Because Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters - They should be in the same league as Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.
This means they need a little more range, and not necessarily at the cost of other class abilities.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I think how they handled it in Tasha’s for the Clockwork and Aberrant subclasses was a good idea. And allowing them to swap out spells with spells of limited spell schools gives them versatility. I think all sorcerers should have this.
And the idea of luigrein on post #92 about spending hit die to gain Sorcery Points (although I would probably limit it to a number of hit die equal to half your sorcerer level, rounded down) is also a good idea. Edit: I’m doing a bad job of paraphrasing their post so I will quote the relevant part here:
And i think certain metamagics should be incorporated into core sorcerer class features, and then more metamagic options added. They should be able to twist magic like a clown making balloon animals.
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Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
Spells known is a terrible metric by which to compare Sorcerers to any class, because Sorcerers can do more with each spell they have.
Your comments that additional Sorcery Points are insufficient and need to be paired with additional meta magic is well taken. I agree with you on that. That’s why each Sorcerer subclass has additional things they can do with their SP. I agree that that is still not enough. The class needs two or three more meta magic. I think this is a good way to emphasize the source of power. Perhaps some sorcerers get a free enhanced spell meta magic limited to a specific element (ice, fire, whatever) or, instead, can get a free subtle metamagic limited to illusions or limited to enchantment or, instead, a free quick metamagic limited to a specific contrip from a pre-selected list.
make wild magic crazier, please.
I like character creation!
But categorically do not add magic missile to other classes.
Edit: That was a Brainfart, Don't add Wild Magic Surge to other Subclasses.
The best way to probably do that is to actually spell out how often Wild Magic rolls should be
I like the initial d20 for leveled spells...this makes it pretty safe to cast your mage armor at the beginning of the day
But after using Tides of Chaos, it should be *every* leveled spell causes a Wild Magic surge
Maybe make it so that each subclass gets a free meta? Like, say, Shadow getting Subtle spell, WM getting Empowered, etc.? Pair that with either making Twinned innate or giving one additional meta as you level (maybe levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 instead of 10 and 17? I mean, a lot of games don't even last till 10, let alone 17). That way players get to actually have some fun with the other options.
I said it earlier, but making it so that the player could choose to trigger it off instead of making it DM-exclusive would go a long way towards fixing the problem and making their abilities actually relevant. After all, a lot of the class is simply irrelevant if the GM never actually makes you roll.
“Spells known is a terrible metric by which to compare Sorcerers to any class, because Sorcerers can do more with each spell they have.”
yes they can do more, but not the extent that having 5-10 more spells would allow them to do. A Wizard knows a minimum of 46 spells by L20, a cleric/Druid knows even more. Both have to select 25 spells to work with and 22slots to cast with. A bard has 22 spells known and 22 slots. A sorceror has 15 spells, 4 MM known and 20 SPs to power the MM or add slots. The Tasha’s sorcerors have 25/26 spells known and while they are in many cases better as a single class than other sorcerors because of it they are not overpowering. 5.5 could esily give all the earlier sorcerors another 5-10 subclass specific spells and none would be so good that folks would be dropping Wizard/warlock/Bard/cleric/Druid to play them. They would finally be competitive instead of an also ran. You could even give them extra SP based on their Charisma score and a new MM every 5 levels (2 at L1, a 3rd at L5, etc) and they wouldn’t be OPing.
right now it’s best use, sadly, is as a multiclass with half or third casters so they get access to spells and slots they wouldn’t as a single class. A ranger 11/sorceror 9 knows 7 ranger spells of L1-3, 5 sorceror cantrips, 10 sorceror spells of L1-5 and has 17 slots including L6&7 for a total of 5 cantrips, 17 known spells, 17 slots of up to L7 And 2 metamagics along with a high AC, melee and missile capability and At least 22 more HP. All in All a much more survivable and useful character than most L20 sorcerors.
give it a few more spells, and maybe some more MM & SPs and it’s far more competitive and far more reasonable to single class.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If we accept the notion that metamagic is equivalent to known spells on a 1:1 basis -- which is to say, a metamagic'd spell is considered a new spell known -- then the Sorcerer jumps from 7 known at level 2, to 24 at level 3. That's huge. Each level thereafter, it gains "3" (1 known spell, plus one for each metamagic you could apply to said spell), until level 10, where it goes from 45 to 85. Then at level 17 it jumps from 100 to 147.
Obviously if this was accurate, it would be crazy. Leagues ahead of any other class in terms of spells known. Surely this would be sufficient to make the Sorcerer both powerful and exciting -- especially because 2/3 of those known spells are effectively Sorcerer-only at level 3, and the ratio only gets larger as levels progress. Even if you can't cast them all at the same rate as ordinary spells, the point stands.
However, I think we can all agree that this isn't really accurate at all. Sorcerers don't feel like they know 147 spells at level 20. They don't even feel like they know 24 spells at level 3. It's probably worth examining why that is, if Metamagic is still meant to be core to the Sorcerer going forward.
At the base level, I think some of these metamagic options just aren't any good. But that really only cuts the numbers down at high levels. There's enough of the good ones to cover the first and probably second batch of metamagic selections. Only the third is really wasted, and 85 spells would still be a ton. But I already said that level 3 Sorcerers don't feel like they know 24 spells, so clearly this isn't answering the question.
The existing metamagic options maybe don't change the spells enough to really consider them new spells, except for a few specific instances. Empowered and Heightened, certainly not. Would you say Fireball is a different spell than Fireball But More Damage? Arguably Twinned doesn't either -- often you could just upcast the spell for the same effect. Extended usually doesn't even matter, so in practical terms it doesn't change the spells at all. Sleep For One Minute and Sleep For Two Minutes are not different spells. They're just not.
I mean, maybe 147 spells at level 20 is too much. But I feel like there's gotta be a better way to tone down that hypothetical power level than to make metamagic a feature where you kinda have to hunt down the actually useful synergies amongst all the garbage. Or if there isn't, then maybe the metamagic-centric Sorcerer is a bad idea.
I think you've made a pretty clear case that metamagic is not equivalent to additional spells known.
From a mechanical perspective, it's clear that metamagic is more like having variable level spell slots. Often Twinning a spell is equivalent to upcasting a spell to get an additional target. Same could be said for Extend or Empower. Heightened is kind of like having an additional spell slot, because you get two goes at having them fail the save, but it's less useful against opponents with Legendary resistances (which is when you really want it).
So I think known spells is a perfectly fair metric to compare between the classes. And I think the Tasha's subclasses get it about right. A L20 sorcerer with 15 known spells plus 10 origin spells has a total of 25 spells to choose from to use their spell slots, the same as any other full caster on a given day. But the wizard, cleric, and druid can change their prepared spells on a daily basis whereas the sorcerer is stuck with the same spells day after day. So the sorcerer utility is still significantly diminished relative to other casters, but not to the point that they are a one trick pony.
Actually now that I think about it Heightened spell is at best equivalent to having an additional level 1 slot for you to cast silvery barbs with.
While wizards and clerics/Druids have lots of spells to choose from each day the reality is that they pretty much take the same load out and only change a few spells if they know they are likely to have a need (you don’t take water breathing in the mountains you take feather fall - on a boat you put away feather fall and load up water breathing). What metamagic replaces is that variability and ability to switch out. So let me suggest a homebrew new metamagic:
alternate energy type- for 5 SP you can change the energy/damage type of your spell. Example you have the spell fireball but you’re facing a red dragon that is immune to fire so you spend the 5SP and convert your fireball into a lightning ball doing full damage to the dragon and surprising the heck out it in the process.
yes it’s expensive in terms of SPs but it has an impact worthy of the cost.
another metamagic change I would like to see - careful spell is a junior league version of the evocation ability Sculpt spells - why? Why not just give the sorceror sculpt spells as a metamagic they can choosem maybe for 3SP if you think it’s really a powerful metamagic. Sculpt spells is not broken for the evoker why would it suddenly be broken for the sorceror?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That actually already exists as an 'optional class feature'. Also, 5 SP... No way could that ever be worth it just to change the damage type. 1 point, sure. 2 points... maybe. 3. Too much. It's just something that doesn't come up enough to justify taking as a meta especially if it costs 5 points. That's an extra level 3 spell slot there.
It's actually more powerful imo. Sculpt Spell only works on Evocation spells, which to be honest, already aren't the most efficient usage of spell slots ...but to each their own
Careful Spell applies to *all spells*
Big group of badies and allies in melee combate? Drop a Web or Hypnotic Pattern on the whole group and exclude your allies. Evocation Wizards can't do that
Sickening Radiance at level 4 is a great usage for Evocation Wizards at higher levels, but it works the same with Careful Spell since it's a save or stuck
Even a spell like Synaptic Static (Enchantment not Evocation)...there are circumstances where I would drop that on a group of baddies and allies. If we're outnumbered and a roll'd low on initiative, I may consider dropping it for the 1d6 penalty on attack rolls for any who fail the save.
You could also just make metamagic free. Cut sorcery points altogether and instead factor it into the power budget of the sorcerer's Spellcasting feature. Example: You learn one spell per level, and every other level you pick a metamagic and attach it to one of your spells. You don't know Scorching Ray anymore, now you know Empowered Scorching Ray, but it doesn't cost anything extra to use because it's built in. Edit: If we're afraid of power levels we could even restrict metamagic by level, similar to how some Eldritch Invocations or Runes are.
I haven't played a lot of Sorcerer so I don't know to what degree you usually use the same metamagic for different spells. But it seems like a lot of them you pick with specific spell combos in mind anyway, and while the ability to mix and match is surely nice, maybe it's not so crucial to the class that you couldn't cut it in favor of something better. Whether this would *be* better, I don't know. It's kind of interesting though.