When I roll to pick a lock using Thieves' Tools, I am now rolling a d20 and adding: +3 Dex modifier +3 Proficiency with Thieves' Tools +3 Tool Expertise Class Feature +5 Gloves of Thievery (one of my infusions) +1d4 from Guidance cantrip
Am I doing anything incorrectly? +18 to pick locks seems v good.
When I roll to pick a lock using Thieves' Tools, I am now rolling a d20 and adding: +3 Dex modifier +3 Proficiency with Thieves' Tools +3 Tool Expertise Class Feature +5 Gloves of Thievery (one of my infusions) +1d4 from Guidance cantrip
Am I doing anything incorrectly? +18 to pick locks seems v good.
Wow! Your character could sneeze and unlock a lock.
Still not certain what brilliant mind thought Gloves of Thievery should be only Uncommon, or so readily available to Artificers.
A ranking +5 bonus so low is crazy. +5 to two skills (well, to a tool and a skill) while at equivalent rarity to +1 gear?
Because being good at a skill is bad in the eyes of the DM apparently.
an artificer who might not have invested in Dex having an extra +5 to their already expertise tool is an issue, I mean not gunna lie there are bigger fish to fry than the Artificer who can pick a few tougher locks and be a bit better at sneaking. I mean why is [Tooltip Not Found] only second level? the same slot that gets druids to 16 AC.
Because the DM can always just raise the DC of the locks if they want to.
A rash of expert Lockpickings have swept across the land, and now the world's greatest locksmith, Master Loch, has begun selling his first class, DC30 locks far and wide and at discount prices.
Note: Casting Arcane Lock on a lock increases its Pick DC by 10 and is permanent until dispelled, which raises the average DC to 25.
If there is a door that the DM really doesn't want the player to get through easily, it can be barred instead of locked. A small plank of wood, implemented properly, can't be picked, no matter how fancy the tools.
Also, a high lockpicking proficiency is also a great way to trigger more traps.
That is NOT merely being 'good at a skill.' Turn that around. If it was a +5 weapon, or +5 armor, would that be just fine at 'uncommon?'
Combat is more heavily balanced, makes use of bounded accuracy, and is expected to come up nearly every session.
Skill checks can scale from trivial to impossible, and a player might never use any given skill, or the reward for doing so could be negligible.
Skill bonuses simply aren't worth as much as combat bonuses, mechanically, and with Expertise, dedicated characters usually end up getting crazy modifiers either way.
Assuming there are a lot of people running about with the Arcane Lock spell..... AND again, makes such gloves closer to mandatory.
You only need one for a fairly large area. All of the merchants in the merchant's guild could bring their chests to the guild Arcanist and get their valuables warded with a personalized password. Most places won't have these kinds of protections, but most NPCs also don't have much worth protecting. If you're raiding an Archmage's tower, then the treasure should be difficult to pilfer. If you're stumbling through a dungeon, then your investigation check is going to be more important than your Lockpicking.
Sure, this item makes an Artificer useful as a rogue alternate, but being flexible is also their shtick. They are a generalist support class.
Since the item is non-attunement and uncommon, does it really matter if they're mandatory for the meta? Anyone who wants them can probably get them pretty easily.
Compare this to a bard who can give you a +1d6 ~+1d12 to any skill though bardic inspiration and it's less impressive. Trading versatility for permanency.
Rogues also get Reliable Talent, which prevents them from rolling anything less than a 10.
Arcane Tricksters have Mage Hand Legerdemain, which lets them pick pockets, pick locks, and disarm traps from 30ft awayas a bonus action.
Just about anyone can steal something, and Artificers can do any one thing better than most, but if you need something done right, a specialist is going to have tricks that others can't match.
Depends on your campaign. If your DM uses "Tiers of Success", then beating the DC might only be part of the challenge. If you face a Trapped Gnomish locked door with 3-5 separate locks that reset upon a failure, then you need someone who can't screw up badly. Pretty much any mechanical variation can be integrated into a world as a new challenge/path/opportunity.
In a high magic world, Artificers aren't very exciting. Any thief can be guaranteed to buy an uncommon item without consuming their limited class abilities to do so.
In a low magic world, Artificers can be game changing. Simply having access to magical weapons can make an encounter go from impossible to survivable.
Ultimately, the Artificer can be a good lockpicker, but it does so at a cost. An infusion used in this way isn't being used on a Homunculus Servant or a Spell-Refueling ring (Remember, the Knock spell already gives every spellcasting class a workaround for the day to day locks by 3rd level), or some other infusion that would have made them more useful in the other 95% of the game.
Ideally, a good DM will provide the players a world where their choices matter.
EDIT: Also, Antimagic fields exist. Bye-bye magic gloves, bye-bye Guidance, bye-bye nearly everything that makes Artificer's special.
When I roll to pick a lock using Thieves' Tools, I am now rolling a d20 and adding: +3 Dex modifier +3 Proficiency with Thieves' Tools +3 Tool Expertise Class Feature +5 Gloves of Thievery (one of my infusions) +1d4 from Guidance cantrip
Am I doing anything incorrectly? +18 to pick locks seems v good.
Wow! Your character could sneeze and unlock a lock.
Just wait until 7th level and he gets Flash of Genius, that's another +X from INT Modifier. A good Artificer is going to have a decent INT so that means a +4 or +5.
If a character has invested so much into picking locks... just let them pick all the frickin locks!
It's not like that's the only thing in a DM's toolkit that separates the party from whatever the party wants. I celebrate the strengths of the characters right alongside the players. Then I sucker punch them right in their weaknesses.
If a character has invested so much into picking locks... just let them pick all the frickin locks!
I think the issue is that its not just this character that has invested something - it is every single artificer. Rogues have to choose where to put their Expertise, so not all of them will have it in thief's tools. Every artificer is rolling d20 + DEX + 2×Proficiency (and at 7th level, d20 + DEX + INT + 2×Proficiency). They don 't even have to carry the thief's tools around with them, risking the attention of law enforcement - they can just create them from thin air over the course of a rest.
I feel that the artificer Tool Expertise feature should only apply to artisan's tools.
Alternatively, since those gloves are uncommon, lock makers have to expect that every serious thief will already have them, so they just make every lock more difficult.
On the other hand, scatterbraind is corect. GMs are supposed to be champions of the characters (to steal an agenda from Dungeon World).
If a character has invested so much into picking locks... just let them pick all the frickin locks!
I think the issue is that its not just this character that has invested something - it is every single artificer. Rogues have to choose where to put their Expertise, so not all of them will have it in thief's tools. Every artificer is rolling d20 + DEX + 2×Proficiency (and at 7th level, d20 + DEX + INT + 2×Proficiency). They don 't even have to carry the thief's tools around with them, risking the attention of law enforcement - they can just create them from thin air over the course of a rest.
I feel that the artificer Tool Expertise feature should only apply to artisan's tools.
Alternatively, since those gloves are uncommon, lock makers have to expect that every serious thief will already have them, so they just make every lock more difficult.
On the other hand, scatterbraind is corect. GMs are supposed to be champions of the characters (to steal an agenda from Dungeon World).
Literarily though this is only a "problem" if you want it to BE a problem - as scatterbrained is pointing out. There are so many ways to challenge a PC that if locks are your "BBEG" you should be thinking of the fact that most STR based classes will just Hulk Smash the door or chest.
Lots of exaggerating of how powerful the features of an artificer are not to mention seemingly complaining about them using their abilities. However we are getting of topic.
No you are not misusing your abilities. the +18 is fine.
I have already posted this in the thread on another forum here but the +18 is assuming that you get a 4 on the Guidance cantrip so it should really be +15 to +18. The rogue could get +20 given the guidance spell and there is almost always somebody in the party that can cast it on the rogue (who could also use magic initiate to get it as well) The thing is that the rogue class is so versatile that it can be made to do a huge range of things, and it will depend on where the expertise is put. Having it in perception and thieves tools means that the rogue can not only pick the lock but find and disarm the trap built in to the lock which the artificer missed because it doesn't have a great perception to match. Artificers certainly can replace a rogue at the thing artificers are meant to be great at - tool use, but they can't do it 30 foot away or as a bonus action etc.
Thanks to all who answered the rules question! (And yes, obviously I know Guidance doesn’t always give +4, I was just gloating about my max benefit.)
I’m in a 3-person party with a melee Ranger and a Sorceror, so I have leaned into the pseudo-rogue role, which is great fun, and as a Goblin Artificer, a perfect fit for our Eberron campaign. I don’t know if any of the detractors have actually played an Artificer, but I definitely wouldn’t take the Gloves of Thievery as an infusion if there was a rogue in the party. Infusions are far too precious to waste them on trying to do something that someone else in the party does better.
I played a Bard in our last campaign; I like the versatile classes, and I really prefer how the Artificer’s range of subclasses allows you to land their role somewhere between the uber-generalist Bard and the more specialized classes.
A jack of all trades But master of none Is oftentimes better than master of one
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I am a newly 6th-level Armorer Artificer.
When I roll to pick a lock using Thieves' Tools, I am now rolling a d20 and adding:
+3 Dex modifier
+3 Proficiency with Thieves' Tools
+3 Tool Expertise Class Feature
+5 Gloves of Thievery (one of my infusions)
+1d4 from Guidance cantrip
Am I doing anything incorrectly? +18 to pick locks seems v good.
That's all legit, with the right setup you can get very good at lock picking
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Wow! Your character could sneeze and unlock a lock.
Because being good at a skill is bad in the eyes of the DM apparently.
an artificer who might not have invested in Dex having an extra +5 to their already expertise tool is an issue, I mean not gunna lie there are bigger fish to fry than the Artificer who can pick a few tougher locks and be a bit better at sneaking. I mean why is [Tooltip Not Found] only second level? the same slot that gets druids to 16 AC.
Because the DM can always just raise the DC of the locks if they want to.
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A rash of expert Lockpickings have swept across the land, and now the world's greatest locksmith, Master Loch, has begun selling his first class, DC30 locks far and wide and at discount prices.
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Be mark of warding dwarf for additional 1d4 and you have my locksmith character: Duldrum Loch.
That won’t cut it. Thieves’ tools aren’t artisan’s tools.
Note: Casting Arcane Lock on a lock increases its Pick DC by 10 and is permanent until dispelled, which raises the average DC to 25.
If there is a door that the DM really doesn't want the player to get through easily, it can be barred instead of locked. A small plank of wood, implemented properly, can't be picked, no matter how fancy the tools.
Also, a high lockpicking proficiency is also a great way to trigger more traps.
I mean, if you could only target locks with the weapon, or have an AC bonus against... locks? Sure.
Combat is more heavily balanced, makes use of bounded accuracy, and is expected to come up nearly every session.
Skill checks can scale from trivial to impossible, and a player might never use any given skill, or the reward for doing so could be negligible.
Skill bonuses simply aren't worth as much as combat bonuses, mechanically, and with Expertise, dedicated characters usually end up getting crazy modifiers either way.
You only need one for a fairly large area. All of the merchants in the merchant's guild could bring their chests to the guild Arcanist and get their valuables warded with a personalized password. Most places won't have these kinds of protections, but most NPCs also don't have much worth protecting. If you're raiding an Archmage's tower, then the treasure should be difficult to pilfer. If you're stumbling through a dungeon, then your investigation check is going to be more important than your Lockpicking.
Sure, this item makes an Artificer useful as a rogue alternate, but being flexible is also their shtick. They are a generalist support class.
Since the item is non-attunement and uncommon, does it really matter if they're mandatory for the meta? Anyone who wants them can probably get them pretty easily.
Compare this to a bard who can give you a +1d6 ~+1d12 to any skill though bardic inspiration and it's less impressive. Trading versatility for permanency.
Rogues also get Reliable Talent, which prevents them from rolling anything less than a 10.
Arcane Tricksters have Mage Hand Legerdemain, which lets them pick pockets, pick locks, and disarm traps from 30ft away as a bonus action.
Just about anyone can steal something, and Artificers can do any one thing better than most, but if you need something done right, a specialist is going to have tricks that others can't match.
Depends on your campaign. If your DM uses "Tiers of Success", then beating the DC might only be part of the challenge. If you face a Trapped Gnomish locked door with 3-5 separate locks that reset upon a failure, then you need someone who can't screw up badly. Pretty much any mechanical variation can be integrated into a world as a new challenge/path/opportunity.
In a high magic world, Artificers aren't very exciting. Any thief can be guaranteed to buy an uncommon item without consuming their limited class abilities to do so.
In a low magic world, Artificers can be game changing. Simply having access to magical weapons can make an encounter go from impossible to survivable.
Ultimately, the Artificer can be a good lockpicker, but it does so at a cost. An infusion used in this way isn't being used on a Homunculus Servant or a Spell-Refueling ring (Remember, the Knock spell already gives every spellcasting class a workaround for the day to day locks by 3rd level), or some other infusion that would have made them more useful in the other 95% of the game.
Ideally, a good DM will provide the players a world where their choices matter.
EDIT: Also, Antimagic fields exist. Bye-bye magic gloves, bye-bye Guidance, bye-bye nearly everything that makes Artificer's special.
Just wait until 7th level and he gets Flash of Genius, that's another +X from INT Modifier. A good Artificer is going to have a decent INT so that means a +4 or +5.
If a character has invested so much into picking locks... just let them pick all the frickin locks!
It's not like that's the only thing in a DM's toolkit that separates the party from whatever the party wants. I celebrate the strengths of the characters right alongside the players. Then I sucker punch them right in their weaknesses.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I think the issue is that its not just this character that has invested something - it is every single artificer. Rogues have to choose where to put their Expertise, so not all of them will have it in thief's tools. Every artificer is rolling d20 + DEX + 2×Proficiency (and at 7th level, d20 + DEX + INT + 2×Proficiency). They don 't even have to carry the thief's tools around with them, risking the attention of law enforcement - they can just create them from thin air over the course of a rest.
I feel that the artificer Tool Expertise feature should only apply to artisan's tools.
Alternatively, since those gloves are uncommon, lock makers have to expect that every serious thief will already have them, so they just make every lock more difficult.
On the other hand, scatterbraind is corect. GMs are supposed to be champions of the characters (to steal an agenda from Dungeon World).
Literarily though this is only a "problem" if you want it to BE a problem - as scatterbrained is pointing out. There are so many ways to challenge a PC that if locks are your "BBEG" you should be thinking of the fact that most STR based classes will just Hulk Smash the door or chest.
Lots of exaggerating of how powerful the features of an artificer are not to mention seemingly complaining about them using their abilities. However we are getting of topic.
No you are not misusing your abilities. the +18 is fine.
I have already posted this in the thread on another forum here but the +18 is assuming that you get a 4 on the Guidance cantrip so it should really be +15 to +18. The rogue could get +20 given the guidance spell and there is almost always somebody in the party that can cast it on the rogue (who could also use magic initiate to get it as well) The thing is that the rogue class is so versatile that it can be made to do a huge range of things, and it will depend on where the expertise is put. Having it in perception and thieves tools means that the rogue can not only pick the lock but find and disarm the trap built in to the lock which the artificer missed because it doesn't have a great perception to match. Artificers certainly can replace a rogue at the thing artificers are meant to be great at - tool use, but they can't do it 30 foot away or as a bonus action etc.
Thanks to all who answered the rules question! (And yes, obviously I know Guidance doesn’t always give +4, I was just gloating about my max benefit.)
I’m in a 3-person party with a melee Ranger and a Sorceror, so I have leaned into the pseudo-rogue role, which is great fun, and as a Goblin Artificer, a perfect fit for our Eberron campaign. I don’t know if any of the detractors have actually played an Artificer, but I definitely wouldn’t take the Gloves of Thievery as an infusion if there was a rogue in the party. Infusions are far too precious to waste them on trying to do something that someone else in the party does better.
I played a Bard in our last campaign; I like the versatile classes, and I really prefer how the Artificer’s range of subclasses allows you to land their role somewhere between the uber-generalist Bard and the more specialized classes.
A jack of all trades
But master of none
Is oftentimes better than master of one